Corruption From Within The Wts

[olrono]

No, no, no, I don't mean anything like partaking of the emblems or the 144,000, we are all in agreement now here on these things. What I want to know is how do we think today knowing of the connection of the UN and the possibility of Freemason's infiltrating our congregations and perpetrating molestation on our children, how else can or should we be aware of their influence on us? For we all know for sure they are in a process of blending religion together to form a one world religion are we not? How about the L.D.S. or Mormons as they are called, we know that the C.I.A. almost exclusively recruits from the ranks of Brigham Young University to do their spook machinations. I believe they like our organizational structure and want to copy it so as to bring control over society at large with their One World Religion, and that may answer why we are seeing this "control" over every thing we do? What do you all think?

[Nambo]

Thats a frightening thought Olrono, but surely it must be the thing Satan would most like to do, infultrate Jehovahs people so that he can lead them all to his Kingdom, so we can be sure he will surely try.

Will Jehovah stop him?, or will Jehovah use this as the time to find out those who worship a religion, or those who worship him and will follow the Lamb where ever he goes, just as happened to the Jews, those that chose thier religion lost God.

Ive been out of it for a while now so do not know the current attitude of the Jehovahs Witnesses to these things, maybe those of you who are still in can keep us informed as to how things look please?

Certainly seems odd how they want to disfellowship anybody who comes up with new light or rocks the apple cart in any way.

Best to keep awake and keep on the watch.

[olrono]

You could also conclude that this mass disfellowshiping is just a reaction to the knowing that false teachers and believers are infiltrating the Society could we not? Somehow I know they are there and these so called subliminal images are a sign of that I am sure.

[Eli's Foe]

Somehow I know they are there and these so called subliminal images are a sign of that I am sure. </span>[/b]

Hi Olrono,

I believe there is something in what you say. There is an insidious influence asserting itself to an ever increasing degree in the society and in its publications. Only a couple of weeks ago we discussed here the Watchtower which alluded to communications with the dead ie. resurrected annointed - clearly in contravention of God&#39;s word. There was a subliminal image which I highlighted at the time in that very issue.
Today, congregations studied the February 1st issue of the Watchtower. Many have noticed the imagery in the picture on page 18, such as the trident on the back of the hand of Jeremiah and the face in the rags let down the cistern. But take a closer look with the help of a mirror, the eye on the rags is immediately obvious. Hold the magazine so that the picture is in landscape with the page number 19 to the top right as you look at the magazine. The mirror should be held vertically across the rags with the "eye" to the left of your mirror - the goat&#39;s head is unmistakeable and no accident.
Sadly there are some even now on this DB who refuse to check these things out fully and still fall back on the face in the clouds explanation. This is one case where that old argument simply wont wash.
Has the society been infiltrated by agents of Satan, certainly that appears to be the case, but what earthly agent or agents he is using I cant say. Interestingly, I was taking a closer look at the backgrounds of Westcott and Hort the main source for the translation of the bible when the WTS produced the New World Translation. This is a very interesting avenue of research, not only does it reveal the occult backgrounds of the translators, but also their links to some very influential people such as Arthur Balfour, who was not only a prime mover behind the League of Nations but also was the author of <span style="font-family:Arial">the Balfour Declaration in 1917 which promised Zionists a national home in Palestine.
This sinister connection has other overtones. Westcott and Hort believed in channeling of messages from the spirit world (rather like the watchtower mentioned above) and there are other parallels in their ideas and those of the WTS.
You may be wondering where these diverse threads are leading me, and frankly I&#39;m not sure at this stage, but the connections create a web of intrigue especially when coupled with the Masonic links discussed by many here and elsewhere before.
The way the society is acting today, it is totally intolerant of any dissent and acts ruthlessly through its appointed elders to stamp out any murmur against it.
Imagine a world society governed by men who will not tolerate any dissent from their rulership, who control through fear and influence by lies and subliminal psychology. Sounds like the eighth king doesn&#39;t it?
Maybe this suggests where the inflitration is coming from.

EF

[Nambo]

Whilst we are on the subject of subliminal images, a not so subliminal image was brought to my attention the other day from the Live Forever Book.
The Picture of the thief running from the police, in his hand he has a fist full of stolen jewellry, most prominant of which is a heavy gold chain of which the pendant is a pyramid with a circle in it.

Ive seen lots of necklaces with crosses, but never one with a pyramid with an all seeing eye in it, why on earth would they chose to draw this?
Plus back then in the mid-eighties, how many people where that aware of what this symbol signifies?

[olrono]

I want to "cross tread" this post of mine to get some involvement on this issue, please forgive me...
I know we will find different views among our brothers about “home schooling” but we have to remember it is a fundamental right to be able to bring up our children in the education and BELIEFS as we the parents want. Because of United Nations treaties the United States have signed, judges are consistently looking to “world precedence” and world case law to determine out comes of U.S. court decisions. This is the point I want to make, if we really believe the Bible in that we should obey the “superior authorities” we have to understand that the superior authority is the Law, and the superior Law is the Constitution. When judges ignore our Law under article six of our Constitution and look to “world Law” under U.N. treaties, we do not have to obey them and have a worried conscience about it before Jehovah. For when judges disregard the Law and actually do their own law to them selves, they are no different from criminals and law breakers as the Mafia. I truly believe this is the diabolical plan of the UN in their endeavor to bring about world government, world religion, is the destruction of the Nation States and their protections of God given liberty. For years the United States was the leader to the world in God given Liberty and have persuaded the rest of the world in liberal freedom of religion, now with the United Nations they are in fact leading the way into the N.W.O. and I believe with the infiltration of the U.N. into our precious organization we are in fact getting clouded doctrine, confused doctrine, so as to march our brothers into the concentration camps believing they are obeying Jehovah as we sing Kingdom songs on the way to the Gas chambers. I sincerely believe it is our responsibility to know our God given rights as to not be misled and take every advantage of our citizenship the same as our apostle Paul gave us in his example. There is a lot of responsibly in knowing our rights, and the Watchtower has not understandably helped much in this regard. I would like to openly discuss Romans Chapter 13: and any other pertinent Scriptures with our friends here. Thank You, O’l Rono

[olrono]

Whilst we are on the subject of subliminal images, a not so subliminal image was brought to my attention the other day from the Live Forever Book.
The Picture of the thief running from the police, in his hand he has a fist full of stolen jewellry, most prominant of which is a heavy gold chain of which the pendant is a pyramid with a circle in it.

Ive seen lots of necklaces with crosses, but never one with a pyramid with an all seeing eye in it, why on earth would they chose to draw this?
Plus back then in the mid-eighties, how many people where that aware of what this symbol signifies?[/b]

I gotta see that, were is my book? see, this is exactly what I am talking about! Good eyes Nambo!!!

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'><div class='quotemain'><span style="font-family:Times New Roman">This brings back memories of coming across a published letter I found in the very first bound volumes of the Watchtower where I read an open letter from C.T. Russell addressed to of all people Rothschild, where he was expounding on the necessity of setting up a Zionist State. Did you ever come across this?

[Nash]

I have no doubt that Satan has infiltrated many congregations, as well as the WTS as a whole. (I cay reasonably say this, simply because of the fact that many good people are getting hurt and many people&#39;s bad actions are being justified.)

I am also sure that there are many different methods of infiltration that he is using, not just one.

Interesting thread.

Nash

[olrono]

See, if we were to only accept the view we are to obey the "superior authorities" and not understand that means the superior authorities are the Law, we would just blindly obey men and wouldn&#39;t get the benefits of our rights as the Apostle Paul did. Did the United Nations infiltrate the Society and are now blinding us to the truth as how we should show are subjection to them?

[DoubtingThomas]

Romans Chapter 13 is straightforward and clear as to whom the superior authorities are and the extent Christians should go in obeying them. There is nothing ambiguous in these words here as to how far one should go in obeying and the reasons why:



Romans 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. ² Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. ³ For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; ⁴ for it is God’s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God’s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.

⁵ There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of [YOUR] conscience. ⁶ For that is why YOU are also paying taxes; for they are God’s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. ⁷ Render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor.

[olrono]

Romans Chapter 13 is straightforward and clear as to whom the superior authorities are and the extent Christians should go in obeying them. There is nothing ambiguous in these words here as to how far one should go in obeying and the reasons why:



Romans 13:1 Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God. ² Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves. ³ For those ruling are an object of fear, not to the good deed, but to the bad. Do you, then, want to have no fear of the authority? Keep doing good, and you will have praise from it; ⁴ for it is God&#39;s minister to you for your good. But if you are doing what is bad, be in fear: for it is not without purpose that it bears the sword; for it is God&#39;s minister, an avenger to express wrath upon the one practicing what is bad.

⁵ There is therefore compelling reason for YOU people to be in subjection, not only on account of that wrath but also on account of [YOUR] conscience. ⁶ For that is why YOU are also paying taxes; for they are God&#39;s public servants constantly serving this very purpose. ⁷ Render to all their dues, to him who [calls for] the tax, the tax; to him who [calls for] the tribute, the tribute; to him who [calls for] fear, such fear; to him who [calls for] honor, such honor.[/b]
<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">And that is how the Bible can be consistent within it self when Paul also said “We will obey God rather then men” The Watchtower would have us all believe that the Scripture is saying, “we will always obey men except were it conflicts with God” Not! I believe this simple interpretation of Romans 13: is being hidden in the efforts to bring about one world government with blind obedience of all religions to conform to the United Nations treaties and with government 501 c (3) tax exemptions.

[DoubtingThomas]

olrono, you say "Personally, I am hoping for the speedy takeover of world rulership and governemnt and religion by the N.W.O. aren&#39;t you? The sooner it happens, then the sooner our deliverance will be here. I don&#39;t want others trying to prevent it or stop it hold it back, which is not possible anyway since it has been sanctioned to happen by Jehovah and also prophesied in His Word.</span></span>

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'>olrono, you say "We are to have Paul as an example, and he used his "worldly citizenship" to his advantage, don&#39;t you think we should do the same? I think your name as a doubting Thomas is right on bro. read the Bible and believe it! (I did not mean this as an attack on my bro. D.T.)

[DoubtingThomas]

Olrono, I&#39;m not sure what you mean about running from our job (do you mean the preaching?) and putting control in the hands of men (do you mean we supporting governments)?

Anyway ... I was just asking aren&#39;t you looking forward to these things speedily happenning and the end of this system? I am sure that you are. We shouldn&#39;t try to prevent it or hold it back should we? Of course not.

What you said re: the Bible interpreting itself, reading the scriptures, the great witness work ahead, and using our worldly citizenship for our advantage is all fine scriptural counsel. I certainly appreciate those reminders, but I am not sure how they fit in with my stated desire for these things happen soon. I get the feeling you thought I was disageeing with you over something.

Your brother
DoubtingThomas

P.S. Was that a personal attack on my name (DoubtingThomas) and not reading or believing the Bible? I hope not, but if so, I am deeply hurt. Why the attack?

[Reader]

This quote was taken from the savethemales.ca website.

"Are all Masons Illuminati? No, especially at the lower levels, I believe they know nothing of the practices that occur in the middle of the night in the larger temples. Many are probably fine businessmen and Christians. But I have never known a 32 degree or above who wasn&#39;t Illuminati, and the group helped create Freemasonry as a "front" for their activities." CIA FBI are all infiltrated. So are Mormons etc.

Svali: "Many of the administrators and directors at the FBI are also Illuminists. The CIA helped bring over German scientists after WWII. Many of these were also Illuminati leaders in their own country, and they were welcomed with open arms by the U.S. group. They also funnelled all information they were learning to the Illuminati.

The Mormons affiliated years ago in a meeting with Illuminati leadership in the 1950s. The same with the Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses.""


There was a different one from a different so-called illuminati defector that said essentially the same thing.


Regards
Reader

[Jeshurun]

Thanks, Reader.

I just love how Jehovah is revealing secrets these days.

Maybe that All Seeing-Eye abomination is part of the "disgusting thing, standing in a holy place"?

The sheeple have no idea what sits at the top of the pyramid, how fitting.

Keep up the good work!

Lou

[olrono]

Olrono, I&#39;m not sure what you mean about running from our job (do you mean the preaching?) and putting control in the hands of men (do you mean we supporting governments)?

Anyway ... I was just asking aren&#39;t you looking forward to these things speedily happenning and the end of this system? I am sure that you are. We shouldn&#39;t try to prevent it or hold it back should we? Of course not.

What you said re: the Bible interpreting itself, reading the scriptures, the great witness work ahead, and using our worldly citizenship for our advantage is all fine scriptural counsel. I certainly appreciate those reminders, but I am not sure how they fit in with my stated desire for these things happen soon. I get the feeling you thought I was disageeing with you over something.

Your brother
DoubtingThomas

P.S. Was that a personal attack on my name (DoubtingThomas) and not reading or believing the Bible? I hope not, but if so, I am deeply hurt. Why the attack?[/b]
Sorry, It&#39;s good not to believe everything you hear, but check your Bible bro. Maybe this is better? My wife says I come across "to ruff "sometimes, thank you so much for telling me I hurt your feelings, for I would never want to do that! Forgive me please?

[olrono]

<div class='quotemain'>olrono, you say "<span style="font-family:Times New Roman">Back in the 90’s I remember there was a “special Awake” article that said the United Nations is a government we should have to show respect to as the “superior authority” something like that to that effect, I have to dig it up somewhere in my stuff But this is just not true! And I can explain all this later…

[DoubtingThomas]

No problem olrono. Thanks for the apology.

BTW - We home schooled two of our children also. As far as I know there are no laws against it. The article you shared showed home schooling was not against the law, and someone was just trying to abuse their position of authority to see the parents curriculum that they were not entitled to see. We see this happen with some elders in the WT Society too (they abuse their authority and go beyond what is written). I have stood up to the authoruty of abusive elders in the past and it has gotten me into a little trouble before too. I was glad that the family in the article you shared stood up for themselves against the school authority. We should all be willing to stand up against authority when necessary also. I agree with you on this. But like I said, my personal feelings on the NWO are to "bring it on baby" as Telly Savalas (Kojak) used to say. I am ready for the end to come soon - and it will, in God&#39;s due time of course. Why fight it? It&#39;s gona happen - the NWO that is.

And I wouldn&#39;t worry too much about what the WT say&#39;s on submission to the authorities. Paul said to the Romans that our conscience is involved. Let your godly trained conscience help you make decisions as to how far you wish to submitt to the authorities, but we all should also be prepared to suffer the consequences for violating the authorities laws when we choose to do so, especially the tax laws, traffic laws, criminal laws, etc. We have lost o lot of civil liberties and freedoms in the USA since 9/11 and they will likely never come back. But that is no reason to get involved politically. We must remain neutral to the affairs of this political and religious system. That doesn&#39;t mean that we don&#39;t fight for our legal rights though as you pointed out that the apostle Paul did.

As far as your comment about reading or looking at my Bible, I have to ask what do you mean? Because if you are judging me or suggestion that I don&#39;t do that, then you could not be farther from the truth. The Bible is the sole authority in my life. I have certainly not said or done anything in my post here that is not in harmony with the Bible. So I hope that this was not a judgemental remark or personal attack on your part. We all should keep our comments and discussions here based on the authority of God&#39;s Word (as we understand it). And where we agree to disagree (which we sometimes have to do for the sake of peace) let&#39;s do so respectfully and in a dignified manner.

[olrono]

You know I never thought that you never read your Bible or didn’t believe it. What I mean is that you should read it again to check what I said to get the understanding. Now you brought up a good point on the current Watchtower teachings that of “neutrality” tell me where in Scripture is this doctrine taught? Actually this is a man made doctrine to try to explain current WT teaching. The truth from the Bible is you are ether on the side of our Great God and Creator Jehovah or by not taking his side you are on the side of Satan the Devil, there is no neutral position. Not only is this thought through out the entirety of Scripture Jesus said he would prefer you be ether cold or hot, for if you are lukewarm he would vomit you from his mouth. “We will obey God rather then men.” Not, “We will obey men when it doesn’t conflict with God”. Can you see the difference? It takes spiritual understanding and responsibility to be able now to really differentiate what we should do or not do. Read my Romans 13; post again and see if it doesn’t follow Scripture?

[DoubtingThomas]

The scriptures, both Hebrew and Greek, are filled with example (if read properly and not misapplied like the clergy in false religion) on God’s people being neutral to the political affairs of this system. This is also one of the basic teaching of Jehovah’s Witnesses. We are not here to argue our basic doctrines or beliefs as Jehovah’s Witnesses are we?



(Matthew 4:8-10) ⁸ Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, ⁹ and he said to him: “All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me.” ¹⁰ Then Jesus said to him: “Go away, Satan! For it is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”



(John 17:13-14) . . .. ¹⁴ I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.



(Isaiah 2:4) ⁴ And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



(John 15:19) ¹⁹ If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.

[olrono]

The scriptures, both Hebrew and Greek, are filled with example (if read properly and not misapplied like the clergy in false religion) on God&#39;s people being neutral to the political affairs of this system. This is also one of the basic teaching of Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses. We are not here to argue our basic doctrines or beliefs as Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses are we?



(Matthew 4:8-10) ⁸ Again the Devil took him along to an unusually high mountain, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory, ⁹ and he said to him: "All these things I will give you if you fall down and do an act of worship to me." ¹⁰ Then Jesus said to him: "Go away, Satan! For it is written, &#39;It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.&#39;"



(John 17:13-14) . . .. ¹⁴ I have given your word to them, but the world has hated them, because they are no part of the world, just as I am no part of the world.



(Isaiah 2:4) ⁴ And he will certainly render judgment among the nations and set matters straight respecting many peoples. And they will have to beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning shears. Nation will not lift up sword against nation, neither will they learn war anymore.



(John 15:19) ¹⁹ If YOU were part of the world, the world would be fond of what is its own. Now because YOU are no part of the world, but I have chosen YOU out of the world, on this account the world hates YOU.[/b]
Thank you D.T. all these Scriptures you quoted are exactly right, we are NOT to be part of the world! It dose not say "neutral" to it! If you are "neutral" you have not chosen sides, no? We as Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses have chosen sides with Jehovah and not Man or the world. "We will obey God rather then men"!

Remember the title of this tread? I am not looking to fault doctrines of my Brothers Jehovah&#39;s People, I am looking for corruption from within the WT around the time of U.N. N.G.O. afare and I believe I have found it in spades!

[olrono]

OK, how dose this apply? It goes back to how they, WT interprets Roman 13: and the whole “neutrality” issue. When the Bible says, “We will obey God and not man,” that is exactly what it means, not “We will obey man when it doesn’t conflict with God”. As I am sure if you stop and think about, isn’t that how you looked at it all these years?

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Someone asked for the 1995 Watchtower information where they changed their position on the United Nations. Here it is:

Watchtower of October 1st, 1995 – A World Without War—When?

"In Bible prophecy, human government are often symbolized by wild beasts. (Daniel 7:6, 12, 23; 8:20-22) Hence, for many decades the Watchtower magazine has identified the wild beasts of Revelation chapters 13 and 17 with today&#39;s worldly governments.

This includes the United Nations, which is depicted in Revelation chapter 17 as a scarlet-colored beast with seven heads and ten horns.

"However, this Scriptural position does not condone any form of disrespect toward governments or their officials. The Bible clearly states: "Let every soul be in subjection to the superior authorities, for there is no authority except by God; the existing authorities stand placed in their relative positions by God.

Therefore he who opposes the authority has taken a stand against the arrangement of God; those who have taken a stand against it will receive judgment to themselves." Romans 13:1, 2.

"Accordingly, Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses, who are maintaining strict political neutrality, do not interfere with human governments. They never foment revolution or participate in acts of civil disobedience. Rather, they recognize that some form of government is necessary to maintain law and order in human society. Romans 13:1-7; Titus 3:1.

"Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses view the United Nations organization as they do other governmental bodies of the world. They acknowledge that the United Nations continues to exist by God&#39;s permission.

In harmony with the Bible, Jehovah&#39;s Witnesses render due respect to all governments and obey them as long as such obedience does not require that they sin against God. - Acts 5:29."

Love, :Love:

Steadfast

[Jeshurun]

Hi Ron

It seems that DT is only reflecting what the Society teaches regarding taking sides when MAN has conflicts. We all know that these wars are not what they appear to be on the surface. They are all orchestrated and funded on both sides by the oligarchs.

The laws that man puts in place, many of them reflect God&#39;s laws, although less and less lately. I don&#39;t see how remaining neutral in these affairs means that we are obeying men rather than God. We obey men&#39;s laws only when they are in harmony with God&#39;s laws regarding how we conduct our own lives. So if man passes a law that requires us to disobey God, then of course we have to disobey man&#39;s law.

In regard to paying taxes, my feeling is that regardless of whatever the 16th amendment says, if we were to refuse to pay taxes, even though there is no law, we would be asking for trouble we don&#39;t need. As I get older and wiser, and especially now that we are so close to the end, I&#39;m finding that money really means nothing, as long as we can provide for our families. I&#39;m expecting the whole financial system to crash any minute. All these riches that people have spent their entire lives amassing will go up in smoke in a millisecond and will belong to the Fed Reserve/Vatican decked-out harlot queen. They will literally have all the money in the world. It won&#39;t help them one bit in the end, so I say let them have it and do whatever they want with it. They&#39;ll spend billions and billions on weapons that in the end will be extinguished by Jesus as if they were nothing.

On the question of being led to slaughter and going along willingly, this is something that needs to be discussed because I really don&#39;t know how to react at this point. It depends on how things happen. Let&#39;s say that one day they declare that we have to register for some ID card, of course we have to do it, but if the process of registering we are forced to fill out a questionnaire, and maybe one of the questions is, how would we react to certain situations that may arise, we need to answer those questions honestly, and that just might put us on their terror list, because you know how they are going to twist things to deal with us "right wing" Christians.

Perhaps a different situation is, they make an announcement that we will be required to sign something that we know conflicts with Jehovah&#39;s law, and we know that our not showing up will result in our arrest, what do we do then? Do we turn our house into a fortress and hunker down, or do we join one of the many militias that will be forming? (Not an option.) Since we know that the New World Order is sanctioned by Jehovah and is necessary to finally get Satan and his whole rotten system out of here, should we fight at all? Or do we pack a quick survival kit and head for the hills? And if we did, where could anybody hide?

These are questions that I feel are urgent to talk about now, while we still have that freedom.

Agape

Lou

[DoubtingThomas]

Excellent questions Lou. I have asked those same questions many times myself. I agree with you fully that as long as obeying Ceaser&#39;s laws do not conflict with God&#39;s laws, then the wise choice is to obey the laws of the land. As Christians we obviously do not need to pick up arms or join malitias when we are attacked by the governments. But ... if we are ever placed in a position where Ceaser wants us to compromise our faith by swearing allegiance to any other God than Jehovah, then perhaps fleeing would be good, even if it is in violation of Ceasers laws. This is what our brothers did in Malawi in the 1970&#39;s when Idi Ammin forced them to purchase a party card which in effect swore allegiance to the government which was only due to Jehovah. Some of those brothers literally fled to the hills to avoid compromising there faith. The same was true during Hitlers reign in Nazi Germany. Many foresaw the problems and fled, avoiding the Nazi concentration camps. Others were passively led to the gas chamber slaughter. Personally ... if I was able to hide, I think that is what I would attempt to do. But either way, I am ready to face death (temporary sleep) rather than give Satan the pleasure of seeing me compromise my integrity. We are facing tough times ahead, and I am also interested in how others anticipate avoiding getting the mark of the beast. Because this is the decision we all are facing in the future. Worship the beast (government) to be set up by Satan, or worship Jehovah the true God. The choice is very simple and clear as I see it. And even though it is wrong for Christians to live by the sword (or literally battle to enemy), we can still try and outsmart them by fleeing or hiding and praying for Jehovah&#39;s protection. But I am sure that not only will Christ brothers (the annointed) experience death at the end of this system, but so will many of the great crowd of other sheep. But as long as we are determined to die faithful we will live in God&#39;s book of remembrance. Foxxes Book of Martyrs has excellent examples of how our many brothers in the last 2000 years have done this, but I found the book to be too depressing to read, and I had to set it down.

[olrono]

Read Romans 13: again, if governments are not doing “Good” we are not obeying God we are just obeying men, “For we will obey God and not men”!!! It dose Not say, “We will obey men when it doesn’t conflict with God’!

[DoubtingThomas]

The Bible identifies Satan as the ruler of this world. This is clear. All governments are under Satans influence, and only allowed or permitted to exist at this time by God. When God&#39;s laws conflict with mans laws, then the choice is clear. We must obey God as Ruler rather than man. At some point the UN will be the one government used by Satan, but God&#39;s law doesn&#39;t change. We must still obey God as ruler rather than man (or mans laws) if there is any conflict between the two. But in the meantime the scriptures are clear - respect the governmental authority you live under. The laws vary by nation, but the principles in God&#39;s word remain the same.

[olrono]

The Bible identifies Satan as the ruler of this world. This is clear. All governments are under Satans influence, and only allowed or permitted to exist at this time by God. When God&#39;s laws conflict with mans laws, then the choice is clear. We must obey God as Ruler rather than man. At some point the UN will be the one government used by Satan, but God&#39;s law doesn&#39;t change. We must still obey God as ruler rather than man (or mans laws) if there is any conflict between the two. But in the meantime the scriptures are clear - respect the governmental authority you live under. The laws vary by nation, but the principles in God&#39;s word remain the same.[/b]
you don&#39;t get it do you? All Witness will put the chains on their own legs and their childrens and march wail singing Kingdom songs to the gas chamber all the wail thinking they are following Gods direction by obeying their superior aurthorities.

[olrono]

You know I can smell it, when their influence is around and I see the signs of their brainwashing and how you all can disagree on the color of the smoke, the plane did this and that, and when even after years of this indoctrination you will argue on conspiracies but the biggest one as far as we should be concerned is the NGO with our Organization. And I think really you all are tired of that issue, you know what? I did not attend a meeting once since I found out about that! I was never dis fellowshipped, in fact I would be PROUD to say that I was DF, but as it was I just took my “publishers card” myself and never gave it back! And I haven’t been back since. I was just roming around one day to see what the Society was up to when I found e- Watchman. And for a wail I even thought we could even clean out the WT of this vermin, but now I see it is better to just stay home with my family and keep working with my little congregation here we only have about six people now and I really have work here. I have learned that is something you all don’t have is good fellow ship, and my people listen to my parts in our cong. And appreciate them and I don’t have to argue with anyone. I will still visit E-Watchman and see all the videos but I am pulling my card folks , before I go, I will tell you what I will do… I am going out to find two flags of the united nations , then I am going to put one on top of my door mat so when the brothers from the hall come around, (when they think only my wife is home and don’t exspect me, ha, ha,) they will see how my family dis respects the un and we walk right over it! And the other one? I am going to tie it to a rope and drag it behind my jeep so when I go to work and the people see me drag it on the ground filthy dirty and raged, I can use it as a witnessing tool to tell the people how this group of satanic bastards plan to take our freedom of worship away and how I am a JW and we have this group infiltrated amongst us and this is what I can do! Cause nobody can see them, but I can smell them and if they actually had the WT join as a NGO in 92, guess what? They must have been ther long before that, What do you think?

[stayawake]

IMHO,
the way I see it (which does not mean a thing), we really don&#39;t have to worry until the 8th King or the NWO takes over.
It is referred to as a NWO,as it will be a WORLD WIDE GOVERMENT.
That means NEW LAWS . AS i write this ,
some countries are already making a new money system.
Like Jesh brought out, all thats holding back the eighth King is the seventh has to recieve a stroke, a economic collaspe would do it and that can happen over night.
Religion will be a threat thats why it will be swollowed up where it will also be a ONE WORLD RELIGION. Thats how we become among BTG.
Religion will be a QUITE PERSONAL BELIEF under the NWO. Everyone will believe what they want ,but just keep it to yourself.
WE seen where Gods people were taken into captivity by the Babyloians so to be disiplined, well the same thing here.
Religion will become a threat to the NWO,thats why the suppression,
Now when the call ""&#39;Get out of her MY People&#39; , is sounded ,that will be another story.
I only speak for myself
love stayawake

[Nambo]

You know I can smell it, when their influence is around and I see the signs of their brainwashing and how you all can disagree on the color of the smoke, the plane did this and that, and when even after years of this indoctrination you will argue on conspiracies but the biggest one as far as we should be concerned is the NGO with our Organization. And I think really you all are tired of that issue, you know what? I did not attend a meeting once since I found out about that! I was never dis fellowshipped, in fact I would be PROUD to say that I was DF, but as it was I just took my "publishers card" myself and never gave it back! And I haven&#39;t been back since. I was just roming around one day to see what the Society was up to when I found e- Watchman. And for a wail I even thought we could even clean out the WT of this vermin, but now I see it is better to just stay home with my family and keep working with my little congregation here we only have about six people now and I really have work here. I have learned that is something you all don&#39;t have is good fellow ship, and my people listen to my parts in our cong. And appreciate them and I don&#39;t have to argue with anyone. I will still visit E-Watchman and see all the videos but I am pulling my card folks , before I go, I will tell you what I will do… I am going out to find two flags of the united nations , then I am going to put one on top of my door mat so when the brothers from the hall come around, (when they think only my wife is home and don&#39;t exspect me, ha, ha,) they will see how my family dis respects the un and we walk right over it! And the other one? I am going to tie it to a rope and drag it behind my jeep so when I go to work and the people see me drag it on the ground filthy dirty and raged, I can use it as a witnessing tool to tell the people how this group of satanic bastards plan to take our freedom of worship away and how I am a JW and we have this group infiltrated amongst us and this is what I can do! Cause nobody can see them, but I can smell them and if they actually had the WT join as a NGO in 92, guess what? They must have been ther long before that, What do you think? [/b]

Olrono, I dont think you are going to be able to help us if you leave brother?

I also dont in anyway think any of the guys here are in any way condoning anything to do with the United Nations but are just having trouble getting thier heads around the point you are trying to make, and to be honest, though you and I see the world pretty much in the same way, so am I.

Satan does have authority regarding human governments, he admitted such to Jesus when he tempted him in the wilderness.
So surely both the American Constitution and the international laws of the United Nations are under the influence of Satan, but still work good in areas such as enforcing Gods original laws such as you must not kill.

The American Constitution was possibly the best and most God-fearing set of laws Satan has ever allowed mankind to have, and it even comes with its own set of protections to ensure against government dictatorships, hence the gun law for instance, but the fact that Satan now wants to destroy the American constitution in order to make way for his One World Government, how does that change things?, unless you belive that God himself wrote the American Constitution?

Just because the American Constitution had more Godliness in it, doesnt mean it is Gods law, when Satan replaces it with a less Godly rule it will still carry out some good as in righteous laws and we should still obey these righteous laws though there might be fewer.

Look at the rest of the world Olrono, look at the original discusting thing that caused desolation and stood in a Holy place, the Roman Empire, yet Christians where still told to be in subjection to it.

Look at Russia for instance, when communism took over, communism, a trial run of the New World Order, yet surely Christians would still be expected to honour it by submitting to its good laws, as long as they primarily obey Gods laws.

So, to me, all rulerships are Satanic, from the founding fathers of America down to the United Nations New World Order, so I cannot understand how you can submit to one differant from another.

As long as you primarily obey God rather than men, an oppurtunity we shall have a lot more of under the United Nations than the American Constitution.

[stayawake]

Good Thoughts Nambo

[eyes&ears]

Good morning all.

Jeshurun said:

"I really don&#39;t know how to react at this point. It depends on how things happen. Let&#39;s say that one day they declare that we have to register for some ID card, of course we have to do it, but if the process of registering we are forced to fill out a questionnaire, and maybe one of the questions is, how would we react to certain situations that may arise, we need to answer those questions honestly, and that just might put us on their terror list, because you know how they are going to twist things to deal with us "right wing" Christians.

Perhaps a different situation is, they make an announcement that we will be required to sign something that we know conflicts with Jehovah&#39;s law, and we know that our not showing up will result in our arrest, what do we do then? Do we turn our house into a fortress and hunker down, or do we join one of the many militias that will be forming? (Not an option.) Since we know that the New World Order is sanctioned by Jehovah and is necessary to finally get Satan and his whole rotten system out of here, should we fight at all? Or do we pack a quick survival kit and head for the hills? And if we did, where could anybody hide?"

These are questions that I feel are urgent to talk about now, while we still have that freedom.

************************************************** ***********

These same thoughts were discussed in my recent book study.

It was brought out that when these things happen it is too late to know what we are going to do. We need to start thinking about how we will handle laws that are in opposition to God&#39;s Laws. What are we going to do take our packed bag and run.

The conductor was directing lots of comments to those young enough to be drafted. Someone commented that females as well as males need to spend some time on how they will react if there was a sudden change in the draft and males as well as females were told they had to go or else. He said females wanted their equal rights so now they have to deal with these issues also.

Conductor also said (as we all know) as unstable as things are we could go to bed in peace tonight and the whole world could have changed by the morning.

So not that we want to spend time speculating on persecution, etc., but it was brought out that we NEED TO KNOW OUR BILBES, SO WE KNOW HOW TO REACT, BECAUSE WE MAY FIND OURSELVES ALONE (NOT NECESSARILY IN A GROUP OR WITH SOMEONE ELSE.

HOW ARE WE GOING TO REACT.

He said, during those times there will be no WATCHOWER as there are now breaking things down as to what to do when the superior authorites makes demands. or anything else. Do you know how to react in these situations..................(EERIE SILENCE) NO COMMENTS.

(My thought) I know some do not care what the Watchtower says, but I do not have that view. There are some good points, and to discard all the information imo opinion is not a good way to go, however, that is what I feel. Eat the good, do not eat what is not good. Anyways...................

Now, he said is the time while we can to think about these things, not when they happen, then it is too late.

WHAT I TOOK AWAY FROM THIS, IT&#39;S MY RELATIONSHIP WITH JEHOVAH THAT IS GOING TO GET ME THROUGH PERIOD. I BETTER MAKE SURE I KNOW WHAT JEHOVAH WANTS ME/E&E TO DO, AND I BETTER FOCUS ON WHAT IS IMPORTANT AND WHAT IS NOT.

Speaker also stated it is our reponsibility....... (hmmmm)

I know we all know this, but I thought it was interesting how he spoke on these things.

Conductor&#39;s closing words were WILL YOU STAND FIRM

Oh before I go, someone commented on two witnesses who signed a government statement in the Nazi camps, that were told they would go free if they signed. They ended up getting killed, while some of the others who did not sign were let go. There is a video of some kind, (purple triangle??) I saw it long time ago, but don&#39;t remembr much about it. I do not remember that point either. In other words they compromised with the gov, they did not remain steadfast/neutral whatever

So I agree, there is no harm in discussing some of the issues that may confront us most likely sooner than we may expect. (NO ONE KNOWS EXACTLY). We do have wonderful examples to reflect on in Jehovah&#39;s word. Daniel is the one that comes to mind right now. I am sure you all can think of many other examples.

Love out to you all.

E & E

[Jeshurun]

Good thoughts, e&e, and I am a little pleasantly surprised that these things are being discussed in the book study. My mom always tells me that all she hears from the podium is that we will watch on the sidelines and get through unscathed, which is completely delusional.

Getting back to the Constitution, as Nambo pointed out, the NWO will have no such constitution. But the harsh reality is, the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States has already been nullified by a combination of some sneaky legislation Clinton pushed through Congress during Christmas vacation just before he left office. Bush finished the deal with the Patriot Acts. This is in essence what 9/11 accomplished. And this is not even hidden information, even Foxnews carries the controversy of the Patriot Act, and there has been fair warning to the American people that this is a reality. But most ignore the details of 9/11 and its aftermath, therefore they trust Bush and his most corrupt cabinet, and willingly go along even with these illegal wars in the name of the "War on Terror".

Funny how now that the Democrats have control of Congress, Nancy Pelosi has disappeared into the woodwork, and nothing is done to try to stop Bush and his maniacal neocon Halliburton war machine. Predictable.

[Shibboleth]

This may be of interest to some, since it involves paying our dues to Ceasar and following the guidelines of the country you live in. It seems that there are radical muslim clerics telling their followers not to pay taxes.<a href="http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21369966-662,00.html" target="_blank">
</a>
News from the Australian Herald Sun (http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,21369966-662,00.html)

[Viking]

when the counterfeit of the kingdom approaches we will recognize it as such. Its outfit will also be like ancient Babel where state and worship had been one unit. As hte 10 horns destruct Babylon the great we recongize that it is the military arm of the world that does that do.
So the whole world comes under martial law. Thsi could be triggered by a great heappening, eg nuking a big city ( see Jericho) and then it walks like Domino.
The old system will collapse and anarchy will be seen. and then out of the abyss comes the solution The NWO.
That will create "security" eg by the way that the money is off, you pay with your good name by minichip in your hand and they grant you that no drugs will eer been sold and so on. everything sounds logic, people ask for security. and the mark you could take you will not take as it is combined with a kind of worhsip to the opposer.
so you liev in a world where you have no Jew star while all have one. You will be lined out from buying, from living and if they like they will imprison you.
Security in the outback, ini the rockies or on a ship?

total control and coersion, maybe only the red skins in the Amazonas region might live free.

the coming war will reason a great tribulation, world economy will collapse, and the world food supply will be interrupted. There is drought now on may places where crops are usual.

So what do we learn? We are in gos own hand, we cannot find safety - except by Jehovah, and he might give us deliverance for our souls, not for our property.

How the end will be - we can set up visions. But that does not help us. At the moment we should be aware of the good news, let us srpead it and we can be convinced that the great crowd oout of the tribulation will be much bigger than only the JWs. It is something like vain to publish that we are the great crowd now. the latest WT study used a modifeid expression. Sorry I m not Englsih, dont have my copy here and cant translate it.

But we might be sure: there are many christian groups that are aware of the endtimes and Jehovah is love, he will not forget what a human being is thinking for. We have no monopol on Jehovah where it is even questionabl if his name is used correct.

We love him, we trust on him and he will use Gog to judge his people. Those in the ivory towers should repent and stop expressing their thoughts about what is case of conscience and what not.

tfor example: the blood which is saved in an operation by cell saver can be kept out of the circuit of someone, maybe stored up and can be treated, eg radiated - and then transfusioned after hours or a day and that is permitted by conscience whiel a blood storage a forthight before operation for the operation is permitted.

Who draws the line? Some old men up in the tower who mean they have the divine wisdom?

This is something I do doubt.

But we are Jehovahs people and wait for his acting. heads up and positive mind. enjoy the madness, the coming tribulation will be horrible.

[Molly]

when the counterfeit of the kingdom approaches we will recognize it as such. Its outfit will also be like ancient Babel where state and worship had been one unit. As hte 10 horns destruct Babylon the great we recongize that it is the military arm of the world that does that do.
So the whole world comes under martial law. Thsi could be triggered by a great heappening, eg nuking a big city ( see Jericho) and then it walks like Domino.
The old system will collapse and anarchy will be seen. and then out of the abyss comes the solution The NWO.
That will create "security" eg by the way that the money is off, you pay with your good name by minichip in your hand and they grant you that no drugs will eer been sold and so on. everything sounds logic, people ask for security. and the mark you could take you will not take as it is combined with a kind of worhsip to the opposer.
so you liev in a world where you have no Jew star while all have one. You will be lined out from buying, from living and if they like they will imprison you.
Security in the outback, ini the rockies or on a ship?

total control and coersion, maybe only the red skins in the Amazonas region might live free.

the coming war will reason a great tribulation, world economy will collapse, and the world food supply will be interrupted. There is drought now on may places where crops are usual.

So what do we learn? We are in gos own hand, we cannot find safety - except by Jehovah, and he might give us deliverance for our souls, not for our property.

How the end will be - we can set up visions. But that does not help us. At the moment we should be aware of the good news, let us srpead it and we can be convinced that the great crowd oout of the tribulation will be much bigger than only the JWs. It is something like vain to publish that we are the great crowd now. the latest WT study used a modifeid expression. Sorry I m not Englsih, dont have my copy here and cant translate it.

But we might be sure: there are many christian groups that are aware of the endtimes and Jehovah is love, he will not forget what a human being is thinking for. We have no monopol on Jehovah where it is even questionabl if his name is used correct.

We love him, we trust on him and he will use Gog to judge his people. Those in the ivory towers should repent and stop expressing their thoughts about what is case of conscience and what not.

tfor example: the blood which is saved in an operation by cell saver can be kept out of the circuit of someone, maybe stored up and can be treated, eg radiated - and then transfusioned after hours or a day and that is permitted by conscience whiel a blood storage a forthight before operation for the operation is permitted.

Who draws the line? Some old men up in the tower who mean they have the divine wisdom?

This is something I do doubt.

But we are Jehovahs people and wait for his acting. heads up and positive mind. enjoy the madness, the coming tribulation will be horrible.[/b]

Viking-

Enjoyed your post.

You have made some very good points, especially about using our God-given conscience. We have it for a reason and should not allow others to make us feel as if we are disapproved by Jehovah if we don&#39;t see things exactly as someone else does. Jehovah has made it perfectly clear that he allows for people to make their own decisions if they are based on his understanding of the scriptures at the time. If he is weak he may make one decision and if he is stronger he may have made some other decision. Of course, we would want to make sure that the decision is not made on the basis of fear of man, or to rationalize a wrong decision.

As this system continues on its path to destruction there may not be much room for personal the choices that we now enjoy. When the NWO does take over, it won&#39;t tolerate any dissention. In some ways, I think of North Korea as the poster child for the NWO. Thorough and complete control by the government of everything we do and say.

And, yes, Viking, from everything the scriptures tell us, the coming tribulation will be horrible! That&#39;s why we need to help and encourage each other now, while we have the opportunity to do so. When things really get bad we will be able to reflect on the insight and encouragement that we have received from Watchman and all that we associate with here.

Molly

[Berean]

Something to consider about neutrality, is that some famous servants of Jehovah have become government officials in a government that wasn&#39;t Israel&#39;s:

You will personally be over my house, and all my people will obey you implicitly. Only as to the throne shall I be greater than you." And Pharaoh added to Joseph: "See, I do place you over all the land of Egypt." - Genesis 41:40, 41

It seemed good to Darius, and he set up over the kingdom one hundred and twenty satraps, who were to be over the whole kingdom; and over them three high officials, of whom Daniel was one, in order that these satraps might continually be giving to them the report and the king himself might not become the loser. - Daniel 6:1, 2

So, that should tell us something - even though Jehovah does not agree with many things that secular governments do, until he ends them, there is no reason for us to rise up against them. In fact, Joseph and Daniel could have declined the positions they were offered, but they didn&#39;t, and God did not punish them for it.

[juffowup]

Getting back to the Constitution, as Nambo pointed out, the NWO will have no such constitution. But the harsh reality is, the Constitution and Bill of Rights of the United States has already been nullified by a combination of some sneaky legislation Clinton pushed through Congress during Christmas vacation just before he left office. .[/b]

Why is this a harsh reality? I&#39;m having trouble envisioning Paul saying something like "the harsh reality is that those of us who are Roman citizens aren&#39;t going to be able to count on our guaranteed rights to keep us from the sword." I prefer my host country respect my religious and other rights, and count it a blessing as long as they do so, but if and when they are stripped away, I don&#39;t know. I hope I maintain a good attitude and keep my faith and wits about me.

Also, and this doesn&#39;t apply necessarily to Jeshurun, but I am done with people throwing the term "brainwashed" around in regard to their fellow travelers around here. It can stop, yesterday.

[Watchful Soul]

I’ve never viewed the interpretation of what this scripture means to be the least bit complicated. Basically (to me at least) it simply says that if we commit “crimes” then the governmental authorities are within their GOD GIVEN rights to punish us when we are caught and we deserve the punishment. Also as a rule the governments are not arresting and punishing us for obeying the law and treating people with mutual respect.