WT Study for August 30, 2009

[James]

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[FutureMan]

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Hello all, in their attempt to consolidate their position and authority as the faithful and discreet slave class, they have come up with this study article. Hmmmmmm.

They equate themselves to eight Bible writers who were inspired to write the Greek scriptures or the New Testament.
That's funny I thought that these bible writers were under inspiration.

Does this mean that now the governing body are proclaiming that what they write is under inspiration of the Holy Spirit?

From there past track record in their writings has every thing they written come true?

Does the Holy Spirit give out wrong and misleading information? Hmmmm.

Now they say that the apostle Paul was appointed as an apostle and to do the preaching work by the Governing Body back then, is this true?

Let us see what the scriptures say on this.

(Acts 9:10-16) 10 There was in Damascus a certain disciple named An·a·ni′as, and the Lord said to him in a vision: “An·a·ni′as!” He said: “Here I am, Lord.” 11 The Lord said to him: “Rise, go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man named Saul, from Tarsus. For, look! he is praying, 12 and in a vision he has seen a man named An·a·ni′as come in and lay his hands upon him that he might recover sight.” 13 But An·a·ni′as answered: “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how many injurious things he did to your holy ones in Jerusalem. 14 And here he has authority from the chief priests to put in bonds all those calling upon your name.” 15 But the Lord said to him: “Be on your way, because this man is a chosen vessel to me to bear my name to the nations as well as to kings and the sons of Israel. 16 For I shall show him plainly how many things he must suffer for my name.”

So from this scripture, was it the governing body that appointed the apostle as a chosen vessel to bear Christ's name?

Was it not Jesus himself that chose him?

Here is another scripture.

(Acts 13:1-5) 13 Now in Antioch there were prophets and teachers in the local congregation, Bar′na·bas as well as Sym′e·on who was called Ni′ger, and Lucius of Cy·re′ne, and Man′a·en who was educated with Herod the district ruler, and Saul. 2 As they were publicly ministering to Jehovah and fasting, the holy spirit said: “Of all persons set Bar′na·bas and Saul apart for me for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then they fasted and prayed and laid their hands upon them and let them go. 4 Accordingly these men, sent out by the holy spirit, went down to Se·leu′cia, and from there they sailed away to Cy′prus. 5 And when they got to be in Sal′a·mis they began publishing the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews. They had John also as an attendant.

From this account was it not the Holy spirit that sent these men on their way, to do the preaching work?

Is there any mention of the Governing Body (the apostles) here in this scripture?

Did they not had the Apostle John as an attendant?

Wasn't he suppose to be a Governing Body member according to the Watchtower Society's understanding of things?

Then why is it that they decided to take John along and not that the apostles sent him along with them?

Just some of my thoughts in regard to this ambiguous Watchtower study.

[truthseeker]

All excellent points Futureman;
But as to how a governing body of apostles and older men in Jerusalem controlled the preaching work is in fact important,
especially if there decisions personally effect you or any one else.
I fully believe a structure for organizing the preaching work existed in the first century Christian congregations,
as to the extent of there authority in making decisions for Christians could be up for debate scripturally speaking.
But lets remember where we sit right now, the issues are regarding the assumption of the present day self appointed slave class
that they have been inspected by Jehovah and his son and have passed the test thus have been given all the masters belongings.
This is the condition there assuming there in,
and with this assumption they make there decisions day after day.
And what have they done with this presumed Divine approval? Beat there fellow slaves have they not and enraged Jehovah
by there adulterous affair with the UN and permitting child abuse by hiding the perpetrators with in the Christian congregation,
also all the false expectations of date setting and twisting Scripture to make it fit to the 1914 deception.
To me this is the real issue we all know about - what are we going to do with these facts?:o

truthseeker

[Nightflyer]

This is one that I am NOT going to attend... there was not such a GB in the 1st century as there is today no matter how much they try twist the scriptures to support such a claim.

[TheMdC]

I fully believe a structure for organizing the preaching work existed in the first century Christian congregations,
as to the extent of there authority in making decisions for Christians could be up for debate scripturally speaking.

I bolded the important part. The authority was within the local congregations. It wasn't a centralized authority. Christ, via the Holy Spirit, directed individuals within various congregations. Christ, in person, selected Saul to become the apostle Paul. Christ, via the Holy Spirit, directed Paul thereafter.

There is absolutely no indication that there was a central governing authority over the congregations. It wasn't in Jerusalem or anywhere else. Jesus Christ led the congregations until apostasy set in, an apostasy from which Christianity has never yet recovered.

[truthseeker]

I bolded the important part. The authority was within the local congregations. It wasn't a centralized authority. Christ, via the Holy Spirit, directed individuals within various congregations. Christ, in person, selected Saul to become the apostle Paul. Christ, via the Holy Spirit, directed Paul thereafter.

There is absolutely no indication that there was a central governing authority over the congregations. It wasn't in Jerusalem or anywhere else. Jesus Christ led the congregations until apostasy set in, an apostasy from which Christianity has never yet recovered.

That is why I used the phrase (structure of some kind)
We would have to agree that Jesus was in control of all the congregations for a period of time, until the apostasy set in.
Example we have Jesus using Holy Spirit to direct a certain individual in a particular congregation ok fine now it sets a precedent.
How this new precedent is communicated to the other congregations that they may be all united in the same line of thought?
Each congregation has older men with abilities to lead and protect the congregation from erroneous teachings correct.
I'm just taking a guess but I would think they would have the responsibility of making sure this new president harmonizes with scripture and then adopt it into their particular congregation.

Sad to say it does appear since the apostasy we are grossly of track.
But we know there is a solution on the way do we not?

[Utuna]

Dear Governing Body,

Please read in Acts 1:23-26:

"So they put up two, Joseph called Bar´sab·bas, who was surnamed Justus, and Mat·thi´as. And they prayed and said: “You, O Jehovah, who know the hearts of all, designate which one of these two men you have chosen, to take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas deviated to go to his own place.” So they cast lots over them, and the lot fell upon Mat·thi´as; and he was reckoned along with the eleven apostles."

You say that you are very respectful of God's arrangements and that humility is the key word of the behaviour of any anointed brother of Christ Jesus, our Lord. You say that you were appointed by your Master so that every new disciple, and especially the ones directly chosen by God, may receive the genuine knowledge and understanding you received from the anointed brothers who preceeded you and who gave you such a wonderful spiritual food (Mat24:45, 2Tim2:2). You also keep saying that the light is getting brighter and brighter as we're getting closer and closer to the time of the end.

Nevertheless, more and more brothers of yours, your own future spiritual flesh, are realizing that there is something wrong somewhere regarding the official interpretation of Bible prophecies by the organization that bears God's glorious name. You can't ignore that fact. How many anointed brothers will you disfellowship (143991????) before taking into account their opinion? You perfectly know that even if the gifts of prophesying, tongues and knowledge were due to disappear, many others gifts weren't due to disappear. I won't affront you listing all the gifts that where due to remain powerful among the rest of your brothers. But, your said brothers, where are they? If your status of "outstanding men" or "pillars" (Gal2:6, 9) within God's organization gives you the duty to wash the feet of your fellow brothers, please, teach me and show me how I will be able to see in what ways you're helping and washing the feet of your so beloved anointed brothers so that they get their loins girded (Luke12:35) and their talent really bearing fruit (Mat25:14).

Please tell me where are your brothers?

Please read Eph4:11-12:

"And he gave some as apostles, some as prophets, some as evangelizers, some as shepherds and teachers, with a view to the readjustment of the holy ones".

Paul was the last apostle officially appointed as such in the Bible. He also said that the gift of prophesying (+knowledge and tongues) would disappear. Where are the thousands of shepherds and teachers (to say the least examples of gifts granted) who share Lord's evening meal with you every year? In what ways are you helping them to do what their Lord told them to do? What are their position in God's organization nowadays? Who are readjusting the new modern "holy ones"? The elders taken out from the Great Crowd?

They just don't exist anymore since they were supposed to fade away 74 years ago. Any WT article destined to them? Any letter sent to them? Any convention for them? Any opinion humbly asked from them? Even stupid elders overtly ridicule the fire that is burning within them. New anointed ones are just considered as fools! Where is the guidance and support you were appointed to give them by your Lord? Are you acting with them like Paul did through his letters to Titus or Timothy? YOUR apostle James, a member of the Governing Body of old, said to you also that if you wilfully neglected one aspect of the Law (Mat22:37-40, James2:10-11), you would be judged as unfaithful.

YOUR apostle Paul said in 1 Tim3:5: "(if indeed any man does not know how to preside over his own household, how will he take care of God’s congregation?") Please, when did you asked your fellow anointed brothers where and how they needed help, food or faith the most? You seem to be proud of the work accomplished... why not? Who told you that you are a faithful steward (Luke12:42, 1Cor4:1) of sacred secrets of God? Your very brothers or yourself? How bad it would be for you to be proud of your own work whereas your brothers are, in reality, starving....(2Cor10:12)?

Why wouldn't you ask them what they think of the quality of the food you give them? Wouldn't it be a good idea to let them give you their opinion (through their God-given "discernment", which was not less valuable than the one received by the apostles as told in 1Cor12:10) of the sacred secrets of God? A worldwide convention of anointed brothers dealing with what must be considered as the official teaching of the org with free debates allowed?

The appointment of the 12th apostle was a very serious decision to take. Nevertheless, they cast lots over the candidates and let Jehovah decide who he had chosen. The "Governing Body" of old didn't tell others to let the eleven apostles decide who would join them. They were 120 (Acts1:15), praying and taking their decision before God's eyes?

If your understanding of God's word is right, why would you be afraid to ask your anointed brothers what they think of the food you give them. Do you think that Jehovah's Holy Spirit would really speak through them as recorded in His Word? Would you disfellowship the brothers who would tell others that the current understanding is wrong? Don't you think that thousands of anointed brothers by their side wouldn't be able to find the right words in order to get them back on the right track (Gal6:1, Jude22-23)?

The first 120 disciples set an powerful example for all anointed brothers regarding how great decisions should be taken...

Dear Governing Body, what will be your decision?

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Nightflyer]

There is absolutely no indication that there was a central governing authority over the congregations. It wasn't in Jerusalem or anywhere else. Jesus Christ led the congregations until apostasy set in, an apostasy from which Christianity has never yet recovered.

And sadly history repeated itself with the Watchtower Society in 1900s. :(

[noname]

I ask,

Why is there clear outlines for brothers for overseer positions in the bible, yet there is no clear outline for Governing Body members?

[noname]

Interesting note:

Paragraph 3:

"the steward must represent the 'little flock' of anointed disciples as a collective body"

Paragraph 20:

"Whether we are "domestics" apart of the anointed remnant, or we are members of the great crowd, let it be our determination to cooperate fully with the faithful steward and its Governing Body."

I find this confusing. The steward is the anointed yet its saying the anointed need to cooperate with the steward.
And did you notice that "Governing Body" is in Caps, just like when the bible says "God" in relation to Jehovah.

Does anyone else see this?

[Jahsdisciple]

The problem is:If Jah uses you and blesses your efforts to help millions come to know Jah and have a much better life and have much more truth than any other org,its tempting to think that IF you think you are going to heaven,then you must be appointed over Jesus' belongings and be part of the FDS... Esp if you think Jesus is already ruling.

If Jesus is ruling and If they are not the faithful and discreet slave,then who is ? You can see why they are trying to fit it all together.

[Rogue]

Why do I get the feeling that 9 out of 10 articles are about the FDS lately? this article feels like an exact rerun of that of a few weeks ago... I can't remember that when i still attended meetings there were so many WT studies about the FDS.... is it just me or..?

[Rogue]

I ask,

Why is there clear outlines for brothers for overseer positions in the bible, yet there is no clear outline for Governing Body members?

Bingo! ;)

That is the strongest argument I always use when I try to explain that there is no biblical support for a Governing Body..
If you think about it... there are guidelines in the bible for every aspect of life, even the seemingly lesser important ones... there are guidelines for every aspect of the christian congregation, the meetings, the preaching work... but the most important and responsible job of all, beeing a member of the Governing Body, making decisions for the ENTIRE brotherhood, handing out spiritual food, replacing Jesus on earth... you would expect very detailed and strict instructions in the Bible for such a heavy job! Why does the Bible not say: Jesus is head of the GB and the GB head of the congregation...

The "mention" of a GB in the bible is very speculative and very dependant on ones point of view.. that alone proofs to me that it is not an arrangement made by Jehovah and Jesus, because they would not leave that up to vague insinuations, they would make it very clear to us...

[TheMdC]

Why do I get the feeling that 9 out of 10 articles are about the FDS lately? this article feels like an exact rerun of that of a few weeks ago... I can't remember that when i still attended meetings there were so many WT studies about the FDS.... is it just me or..?
It's because even when the article is not about the FDS, they manage to find a way to mention it.

If the article is about Jesus, when there is a paragraph about our subjection to him, they feel inclined to usually add, "...and the Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Matthew 24:45)"

If the article is about the wonders of creation, when there is a paragraph encouraging us to be appreciative, we're told to give thanks to Jehovah, and they feel inclined to usually add, "...and the Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Matthew 24:45)"

If the article is about anything at all, when there is a paragraph they feel they can squeeze in a mention, they feel inclined to usually add, "...and the Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Matthew 24:45)"

This particular article is difficult to digest, primarily because it makes almost no sense either logically or scripturally, yet is the foundation for the power wielded within the organization.

[Utuna]

It's because even when the article is not about the FDS, they manage to find a way to mention it.

If the article is about Jesus, when there is a paragraph about our subjection to him, they feel inclined to usually add, "...and the Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Matthew 24:45)"

If the article is about the wonders of creation, when there is a paragraph encouraging us to be appreciative, we're told to give thanks to Jehovah, and they feel inclined to usually add, "...and the Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Matthew 24:45)"

If the article is about anything at all, when there is a paragraph they feel they can squeeze in a mention, they feel inclined to usually add, "...and the Faithful and Discreet Slave. (Matthew 24:45)"

This particular article is difficult to digest, primarily because it makes almost no sense either logically or scripturally, yet is the foundation for the power wielded within the organization.

Dear TheMdC,

I totally agree with you!

As you said, the article they wrote makes almost no sense either logically or scripturally. The GB keep saying that the FDS was found faithful, watching and active during Jesus' inspection but where are they now....? They've disappeared!

The article says that the FDS is still on earth today and that the GB represents them. Is it really what we see today in the org? Does the GB represent or, in reality, replace the FDS? If the GB represents the FDS, it means that they express the views of the FDS as a whole.... but the paragraphs 16 and 18 say that the members of the FDS are just preacher-bees! They're not allowed to express anything regarding teaching matters! Are they?

The last paragraph of the article reads:

"Whether we are "domestics", who are parts of the anointed remnant, or we are members of the great crowd, let it be our determination to cooperate fully with the faithful steward and its Governing Body."

The members of the Great Crowd are willing to cooperate with the faithful steward and its Governing Body but... where are the members of the faithful steward's class...?

The WT article paragraph 18 says: "As a class, "the faithful and discreet slave" is one body, but as individuals, they have various work assignments."

Again, please give us examples.... Where are they? What are they doing? Figuratively speaking, the FDS is a ghost class! We know that they are numerous, that they're about 9 000/10 000 each year to share Jesus' evening meal, that they have various work assignments but............... have you ever seen one of them carrying out zealously one of their "various work assignments"? Excepted the preaching work, are there at least one, out of the great number of other "various" work assignments implied, detailed in that article?

Furthermore, please read the following sentences:

"They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special insights beyond what even some experienced members of the "great crowd" may have. They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the "other sheep" have.

If the anointed ones have nothing more than the members of the GC, what are the various gifts granted to the "little flock" listed in the Bible for? What are the talents given by Jesus to all the anointed brothers? If they have nothing more, is the talent they're given a phoney and powerless token of God's Holy Spirit? Anointed ones have God's LAW written deep within their heart! That Law is a great LOVE for their Father Jehovah the Almighty, for their fellow anointed brothers and especially for Jesus' sheep, their so fragile and beloved brothers of the GC. Does the GB have any consideration for what that LAW written deep down within the heart of their so-called brothers mean for them all? Does that LAW mean nothing in reality?

Please read the following written in paragraph 17 :

"In real terms, though, it is only the elders who take this action in their capacity as representatives of the congregation. The elders do not contact all members of the congregation to ask their various opinions before they make a decision. Theocratically, they perform the role that they have been assigned; they act on behalf of the wole congregation."

When Paul listed all the gifts granted to the anointed ones of the first century, he never said that the elders only would be considered as genuine or worthy of trust. The conditions needed to be appointed as elder (shepherd essentially) weren't the same as the ones required for b/s having the gift of prophesying. Those b/s weren't forbidden to reveal what God's Spirit had told them.

Please read 1Cor12:10 in various versions of English Bibles:

"to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues." (NIV)

"He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said." - (NLT)

"The Spirit gives one person the power to work miracles; to another, the gift of speaking God's message; and to yet another, the ability to tell the difference between gifts that come from the Spirit and those that do not. To one person he gives the ability to speak in strange tongues, and to another he gives the ability to explain what is said." (TEV)

Please compare with 1 Cor12:1-11 (NWT)

Our b/s of the first century CE weren't more intelligent, strong or faithful as we are. Many of them didn't have the spiritual or personal abilities to be elders or good shepherds. Nevertheless, God's Holy Spirit gave them what they needed so that their greatest qualities may be used according to God's purpose. Maybe that one brother did not have the personal qualities required to be a good teacher but God's Holy Spirit may have used him so that his personal understanding, regarding how love-related issues were to be dealt with, be helpful in his congregation or on higher levels. For example, maybe some didn't have a big brain like Paul or Apollos but they did have a BIG HEART full of love for their b/s! Paul never said that the revelations or "flashes of light" were only to be received with seriousness if said flashes came from elders or from the outstanding men" or the "pillars" in the congregation. The men with God's given ability to discern what was wrong from what was right were able to determine it all. The Bible doesn't tell anywhere in its pages that the 12 apostles alone were granted the right to determine what was wrong from what was right!!!!!

The fact that some b/s with prophesying gifts were not faithful and grieved God's Holy Spirit because of their bad behaviour never impeded the truth to come out and the lies to be dismissed by other faithful anointed b/s. The members of what is called now the Governing Body took decisions only when something vital was at stake and because a great number of other anointed b/s did have divergent opinions over an official doctrine. Nowadays, their opinion isn't even taken into consideration....

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[truthseeker]

Wow Utuna - Your in a spiritual groove -
Thanks for the great post.

May blessings from Jehovah be on you!

Micah 5:7-9
“And the remaining ones of Jacob must become in the midst of many peoples like dew from Jehovah, like copious showers upon vegetation, that does not hope for man or wait for the sons of earthling man. 8 And the remaining ones of Jacob must become among the nations, in the midst of many peoples, like a lion among the beasts of a forest, like a maned young lion among droves of sheep, which, when it actually passes through, certainly both tramples down and tears in pieces; and there is no deliverer. 9 Your hand will be high above your adversaries, and all enemies of yours will be cut off.”

[shikinah]

Maybe theres even ranks within the governing body, who knows, after the UN saga nothing would surprise me:rolleyes:

[Jahsdisciple]

The last paragraph of the article reads:

"Whether we are "domestics", who are parts of the anointed remnant, or we are members of the great crowd, let it be our determination to cooperate fully with the faithful steward and its Governing Body."



I think its a form of emotional blackmail. If you are constantly told that "we' are the FDS,then maybe its true. If its true,then you better listen ! Instead of constantly telling us who you think you are,why not show us by what you do,who you are ?

If they are that insecure about their position,then there must be a problem. Maybe there are so many complaining about the 1914...how can it be so long since that date ?? If they are the real FDS,then why is there such a delay ? I have to admit, that if the '1914' is wrong,it doesnt worry me in the slightest.Maybe they themselves are doubting. If someone is constantly telling me something,it makes me wonder whats going on,behind closed doors.

[truthseeker]

You may be on to something Jahsdisciple - There getting a bit nervous about something!

“If YOU remain in my word, YOU are really my disciples, and YOU will know the truth, and the truth will set YOU free.”

Schism

1.division or disunion, esp. into mutually opposed parties.2.the parties so formed.3.Ecclesiastical. a.a formal division within, or separation from, a church or religious body over some doctrinal difference.b.the state of a sect or body formed by such division.c.the offense of causing or seeking to cause such a division.

[TheMdC]

Paragraph 3 is quite the logical nightmare.

The FDS can't possibly be a group of individual slaves because Jesus used the singular words "slave" and "steward."
The FDS must therefore be one group of people. :wacko:
The group of people the FDS manages/supervises are the many individual people who are part of the very same one slave. :wacko:

This doesn't make a bit of sense.
At all.

[panda]

Dear TheMdC,

I totally agree with you!

As you said, the article they wrote makes almost no sense either logically or scripturally. The GB keep saying that the FDS was found faithful, watching and active during Jesus' inspection but where are they now....? They've disappeared!

The article says that the FDS is still on earth today and that the GB represents them. Is it really what we see today in the org? Does the GB represent or, in reality, replace the FDS? If the GB represents the FDS, it means that they express the views of the FDS as a whole.... but the paragraphs 16 and 18 say that the members of the FDS are just preacher-bees! They're not allowed to express anything regarding teaching matters! Are they?

The last paragraph of the article reads:


"Whether we are "domestics", who are parts of the anointed remnant, or we are members of the great crowd, let it be our determination to cooperate fully with the faithful steward and its Governing Body."this has always stumped me too

The members of the Great Crowd are willing to cooperate with the faithful steward and its Governing Body but... where are the members of the faithful steward's class...?

The WT article paragraph 18 says: "As a class, "the faithful and discreet slave" is one body, but as individuals, they have various work assignments."


Again, please give us examples.... Where are they? What are they doing? Figuratively speaking, the FDS is a ghost class! We know that they are numerous, that they're about 9 000/10 000 each year to share Jesus' evening meal, that they have various work assignments but............... have you ever seen one of them carrying out zealously one of their "various work assignments"? Excepted the preaching work, are there at least one, out of the great number of other "various" work assignments implied, detailed in that article? I don't know how any b/s read let alone study this article and NOT have questions similar to these

Furthermore, please read the following sentences:



"They do not believe that their being of the anointed gives them special insights beyond what even some experienced members of the "great crowd" may have. They do not believe that they necessarily have more holy spirit than their companions of the "other sheep" have.

If the anointed ones have nothing more than the members of the GC, what are the various gifts granted to the "little flock" listed in the Bible for? What are the talents given by Jesus to all the anointed brothers? If they have nothing more, is the talent they're given a phoney and powerless token of God's Holy Spirit? Anointed ones have God's LAW written deep within their heart! That Law is a great LOVE for their Father Jehovah the Almighty, for their fellow anointed brothers and especially for Jesus' sheep, their so fragile and beloved brothers of the GC. Does the GB have any consideration for what that LAW written deep down within the heart of their so-called brothers mean for them all? Does that LAW mean nothing in reality?
exactly, we all have our gifts, and holy spirit helps the GC, how much more so with the anointed as they take the lead in the preaching nad teaching.
Please read the following written in paragraph 17 :

"In real terms, though, it is only the elders who take this action in their capacity as representatives of the congregation. The elders do not contact all members of the congregation to ask their various opinions before they make a decision. Theocratically, they perform the role that they have been assigned; they act on behalf of the wole congregation."

When Paul listed all the gifts granted to the anointed ones of the first century, he never said that the elders only would be considered as genuine or worthy of trust. The conditions needed to be appointed as elder (shepherd essentially) weren't the same as the ones required for b/s having the gift of prophesying. Those b/s weren't forbidden to reveal what God's Spirit had told them.

Please read 1Cor12:10 in various versions of English Bibles:

"to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues." (NIV)

"He gives one person the power to perform miracles, and another the ability to prophesy. He gives someone else the ability to discern whether a message is from the Spirit of God or from another spirit. Still another person is given the ability to speak in unknown languages, while another is given the ability to interpret what is being said." - (NLT)

"The Spirit gives one person the power to work miracles; to another, the gift of speaking God's message; and to yet another, the ability to tell the difference between gifts that come from the Spirit and those that do not. To one person he gives the ability to speak in strange tongues, and to another he gives the ability to explain what is said." (TEV)

Please compare with 1 Cor12:1-11 (NWT)

Our b/s of the first century CE weren't more intelligent, strong or faithful as we are. Many of them didn't have the spiritual or personal abilities to be elders or good shepherds. Nevertheless, God's Holy Spirit gave them what they needed so that their greatest qualities may be used according to God's purpose. Maybe that one brother did not have the personal qualities required to be a good teacher but God's Holy Spirit may have used him so that his personal understanding, regarding how love-related issues were to be dealt with, be helpful in his congregation or on higher levels. For example, maybe some didn't have a big brain like Paul or Apollos but they did have a BIG HEART full of love for their b/s! Paul never said that the revelations or "flashes of light" were only to be received with seriousness if said flashes came from elders or from the outstanding men" or the "pillars" in the congregation. The men with God's given ability to discern what was wrong from what was right were able to determine it all. The Bible doesn't tell anywhere in its pages that the 12 apostles alone were granted the right to determine what was wrong from what was right!!!!!

The fact that some b/s with prophesying gifts were not faithful and grieved God's Holy Spirit because of their bad behaviour never impeded the truth to come out and the lies to be dismissed by other faithful anointed b/s. The members of what is called now the Governing Body took decisions only when something vital was at stake and because a great number of other anointed b/s did have divergent opinions over an official doctrine. Nowadays, their opinion isn't even taken into consideration....

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newtonexcellent post Utuna, I have been praying to Jehovah to help me with this article, I can't stomach this, but all of the posts have been very helpful. Thank you.:)

[watchman]

Conspicuously, the WT article makes no mention of the evil slave. In both instances where Jesus spoke of a faithful steward he also spoke of the slave becoming unfaithful. JW's have been misled to believe that the evil-slave class exited the household back in 1916 and all this time since then the WT has been controlled by a faithful slave. That simply is not how it works. According to the account in Luke both the faithful and evil slaves are in the same house up until the thief-like coming of the master. And subsequent to the master's arrival both slaves get flogged with the lash, the willfully evil slave gets beaten severely and the ignorant but otherwise faithful slave gets lashed with less strokes than his evil brother.

watchman

[Jahsdisciple]

^^ ...either way,you get a good flogging...thats something to look forward to,LOL !

[Gabriel]

I didnt even care to give this article so much as a glance. I already find most of the meetings discouraging..why give satan ammo to work with by delibrately setting through an entire hour of nonsence letting my blood boil? Therefore my family and I will stay for the public talk and leave shortly after.

[billy2]

this is how the wt sees it , i think

faithful slave = governing body - levites - apostles - bible writers (8 men used)
domestics = annointed - isrealites
everyone else is the great crowd
also mentioned - anointed are no different to great crowd


i thought it should be more like

faithful slave - anointed - some have various roles - teaching , prophecying, preaching according to the skills of each - the wt says they, the govening body dont feel the need to consult the anointed on teachings and decicion making - if thats the case whats the point of the rest of the annointed - if they are just to be viewed as members of the great crowd

the apostles were picked by Jesus and have credentials for their apostleship - gifts of the spirit - how do we know the "governing body" have these same credentials when there is no proof of their being chosen by Jesus and Jehovah - werent the apostles used to write the new greek scriptures - its seems logical to me that the greek scriptures would be the representation of the "govening body" or apostles and the anointed thereafter are to base their instruction and decisionmaking on the scriptures and God's spirit of course

its seems more logical to me that the faithful slave would equal the anointed - and also be members of spiritual isreal and the rest of the isrealists would be the rest of the worldwide christian congregation- because REvelation says the 144,000 (anointed) were taken out of the tribes of Isreal - so who are the Isrealites left over after the firstfruites have been taken out?

[TheMdC]

The purpose of the article is quite obvious.

It can be summarized: Elevate the GB above the rest of the anointed.

They do this by putting the rest of the anointed down with the great crowd (which they keep forgetting doesn't exist until after the great tribulation, the tribulation which they also keep forgetting about, saying we're on the doorstep of Armageddon, but I digress). They also stifle questioning or any attempts at teaching, interpretation, or leadership from the rest of the anointed by putting them below the "great crowd" elders.

And they have a built-in put-down of any anointed member who questions this: Lack of Humility.

I can't imagine this sitting well with any true member of the little flock. Wouldn't this grieve the holy spirit within him or her?

[Utuna]

Dear all,

Here are some other thoughts I'd like to share with you about that subject. As usual, I'll try to add as many biblical verses as possible. If I'm wrong, please feel free to correct me or if you think you can add other thoughts or verses, please share it with us.

Did the apostles have the monopoly of knowledge in the first century?

It's true that the apostles were the first to teach Jesus' words and commandments. Nevertheless, the goal of that teaching was to lead those newcomers to spiritual maturity and above all to their getting baptized with water and with Holy Spirit. Once they were filled with Holy Spirit, they didn't need the apostles anymore in order to get an exact understanding of what they had then at their disposal (mainly the OT and Gospel (with oral witness of the twelve who had seen and been directly taught by Jesus)).

Please read:

"What is to be done, then, brothers? When YOU come together, one has a psalm, another has a teaching, another has a revelation, another has a tongue, another has an interpretation. Let all things take place for upbuilding." - (1Cor14:26)

The last chapters of Paul's first letter to the Corinthians are dedicated to how things were to be done properly regarding gifts and knowledge. He never said :"Preach what I taught you and don't you add anything more to it! otherwise you'll be disfellowshipped". On the contrary, Christians had to: "Beloved ones, do not believe every inspired expression, but test the inspired expressions to see whether they originate with God, because many false prophets have gone forth into the world." - (1John4:1)

"And YOU have an anointing from the holy one; all of YOU have knowledge. I write YOU, not because YOU do not know the truth, but because YOU know it, and because no lie originates with the truth." - (1John2:20-21)

"And as for YOU, the anointing that YOU received from him remains in YOU, and YOU do not need anyone to be teaching YOU; but, as the anointing from him is teaching YOU about all things, and is true and is no lie, and just as it has taught YOU, remain in union with him." - (1John2:27)

"But we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us intellectual capacity that we may gain the knowledge of the true one. And we are in union with the true one, by means of his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and life everlasting." - (1John5:20)

and my favorite

"That is why I also, since I have heard of the faith YOU have in the Lord Jesus and toward all the holy ones, do not cease giving thanks for YOU. I continue mentioning YOU in my prayers, that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give YOU a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the accurate knowledge of him; the eyes of YOUR heart having been enlightened, that YOU may know what is the hope to which he called YOU, what the glorious riches are which he holds as an inheritance for the holy ones, and what the surpassing greatness of his power is toward us believers." - (Eph1:15-19)

So, what was the role of the apostles. They were the foundation upon whom the body of Christ was to be built. Paul's letters were not about knowledge but about how to apply that knowledge and how to avoid the snares of false brothers who tried to impede the faithful anointed brothers of old to reach maturity, or in order words, to use and make Jesus' talent grow to the full.

"For this reason, now that we have left the primary doctrine about the Christ, let us press on to maturity, not laying a foundation again, namely, repentance from dead works, and faith toward God, the teaching on baptisms and the laying on of the hands, the resurrection of the dead and everlasting judgment. And this we will do, if God indeed permits." - (Heb6:1-3)

"But now that YOU have come to know God, or rather now that YOU have come to be known by God, how is it that YOU are turning back again to the weak and beggarly elementary things and want to slave for them over again?" - (Gal4:9)

"Concerning him we have much to say and hard to be explained, since YOU have become dull in YOUR hearing. For, indeed, although YOU ought to be teachers in view of the time, YOU again need someone to teach YOU from the beginning the elementary things of the sacred pronouncements of God; and YOU have become such as need milk, not solid food. For everyone that partakes of milk is unacquainted with the word of righteousness, for he is a babe. But solid food belongs to mature people, to those who through use have their perceptive powers trained to distinguish both right and wrong." - (Heb5:11-14)

The primary doctrine (2Tim1:13) is what the apostles gave to newcomers but the latter ones had to do their job, by demonstrating genuine love for their fellow Christians (Ja1:27; 2John5)) reading the Bible and asking God for help, wisdom and knowledge (Mark9:24, 1John5:14-15, Mat7:11). Spritual growth till maturity is a personal duty, for any Christian, anointed or not. Anointed brothers need each others and to a certain extent, anointed brothers need the GB but anointed brothers don't receive their knowledge and understanding from the GB. That is God's job through his Holy Spirit. Is the GB taking the place of God?

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[truthseeker]

As always Utuna:
Excellent reasoning’s from the scriptures.
Thank you :D
Truthseeker

[TheMdC]

Paragraph 6 cites Matthew 28:19,20, stating that, "Each member of that nation was given the commission to preach the good news and make disciples." Conspicuously missing from the sentence is that in the cited scripture they were also each given the commission to teach.

Why? Because it would undermine where they're going in paragraphs 8 and 9.

In those paragraphs they emphasize that the apostles (and only the apostles) were responsible for teaching, (and not helping to feed the poor). The apostles, therefore appointed ones from among the brothers to take care of feeding the poor, with the implication that this therefore precluded them from the responsibility of teaching. They have Acts 6:1-6 read. What the WT fails to notice is that two of the brothers assigned to work the food distribution were Stephen and Philip, two of the most well-known teachers of truth in the entire book of Acts, and neither of whom were apostles.

Paragraph 8 concludes, "So the primary responsibility for the spiritual feeding work rested with the apostles." This statement does not logically follow any of the above, even if the information presented earlier was accurate, which is questionable. The logical conclusion of the previous information is, "So, the primary responsibility of the apostles was the spiritual feeding work," which isn't at all the same thing as saying the primary responsibility for the feeding work belonged to the apostles, implying exclusivity where none existed.

Then, in paragraph 9, there is reference to Paul's appointment by holy spirit being "confirmed by the governing body in Jerusalem." Cited is Galatians 2:7-10 where Paul explains how he told the brothers Peter, James, and John what his assignment was, and they agreed to stick with preaching to the Jews while Paul and Barnabas went to the uncircumcised gentiles. The idea is that Paul somehow had to get approval from the "governing body in Jerusalem" even though he was given his assignment by both Jesus Christ and the holy spirit itself. Amazing. Also of note is that in paragraph 9, the first century "governing body" that included at least James, John, and Peter, and perhaps others, is lowercase but in paragraphs 19 and 20, the modern day version is "Governing Body," capitalized.

Hubris anyone?

[billy2]

then in verse 8 it goes on to show that Stephen didnt just distribute food but preached and taught as well (unless its a different Stephen)

8Now Stephen, a man full of God's grace and power, did great wonders and miraculous signs among the people. 9Opposition arose, however, from members of the Synagogue of the Freedmen (as it was called)—Jews of Cyrene and Alexandria as well as the provinces of Cilicia and Asia. These men began to argue with Stephen, 10but they could not stand up against his wisdom or the Spirit by whom he spoke.

[Utuna]

Paragraph 6 cites Matthew 28:19,20, stating that, "Each member of that nation was given the commission to preach the good news and make disciples." Conspicuously missing from the sentence is that in the cited scripture they were also each given the commission to teach.

Why? Because it would undermine where they're going in paragraphs 8 and 9.

In those paragraphs they emphasize that the apostles (and only the apostles) were responsible for teaching, (and not helping to feed the poor). The apostles, therefore appointed ones from among the brothers to take care of feeding the poor, with the implication that this therefore precluded them from the responsibility of teaching. They have Acts 6:1-6 read. What the WT fails to notice is that two of the brothers assigned to work the food distribution were Stephen and Philip, two of the most well-known teachers of truth in the entire book of Acts, and neither of whom were apostles.

Paragraph 8 concludes, "So the primary responsibility for the spiritual feeding work rested with the apostles." This statement does not logically follow any of the above, even if the information presented earlier was accurate, which is questionable. The logical conclusion of the previous information is, "So, the primary responsibility of the apostles was the spiritual feeding work," which isn't at all the same thing as saying the primary responsibility for the feeding work belonged to the apostles, implying exclusivity where none existed.

Then, in paragraph 9, there is reference to Paul's appointment by holy spirit being "confirmed by the governing body in Jerusalem." Cited is Galatians 2:7-10 where Paul explains how he told the brothers Peter, James, and John what his assignment was, and they agreed to stick with preaching to the Jews while Paul and Barnabas went to the uncircumcised gentiles. The idea is that Paul somehow had to get approval from the "governing body in Jerusalem" even though he was given his assignment by both Jesus Christ and the holy spirit itself. Amazing. Also of note is that in paragraph 9, the first century "governing body" that included at least James, John, and Peter, and perhaps others, is lowercase but in paragraphs 19 and 20, the modern day version is "Governing Body," capitalized.

Hubris anyone?

Dear TheMdC,

You're absolutely right!

Here are some biblical verses of which your post reminded me:

"Only we should keep the poor in mind. This very thing I have also earnestly endeavored to do." - (Gal2:10)

Paul knew that the preaching work was important but he did do what he could to help the needy ones (especially towards the congregations of Judea). That's why I didn't talk in my previous post about the preaching work in the requirements for true Christians. In the convention I attended last month, as usual, all the efforts and exhortations were focused on the preaching work whereas so many of our b/s desperately need help! I'm sick of it, almost allergic to it now!

"to reveal his Son in connection with me, that I might declare the good news about him to the nations, I did not go at once into conference with flesh and blood. Neither did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles previous to me, but I went off into Arabia, and I came back again to Damascus." - (Gal1:16-17)

Paul started his mission right off and met the apostles only years later. Did they disfellowship him for not meeting them before doing any thing? Even if, I think so, the apostles were well aware of the divine assignment received by Paul thanks to Ananias' testimony, they were never jealous or overly inquisitive over Paul's deeds, nor saw their authority endangered. If the GB does, is it because their conscience isn't clear?

Dear TheMdC and Billy2, thanks for your posts!

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[billy2]

Hi Utuna - i can really relate to your statement:

In the convention I attended last month, as usual, all the efforts and exhortations were focused on the preaching work whereas so many of our b/s desperately need help! I'm sick of it, almost allergic to it now!

I find the same attitude at the meetings - there is such little food dished out on loving care of our brothers and sisters - Jesus said that we should be all treating oneanother like fleshly mothers, fathers, brothers sisters - especially since many have lost our real fleshly family because of the dividing sword of the truth - ive seen many leave the org because of the lack of care and concern -

[TheMdC]

I was still thinking about this article today while driving to work, when the thought struck me: Why this article and why now? The purpose of the article is clear:

Elevate the GB and denigrate the rest of the anointed to a status below the great crowd elders.

But why was this seen to be necessary and why now?

I was just musing to myself and thinking, what if the number of Memorial partakers went up again this year? And what if the number of partakers went up significantly? It is well known that historically the anointed members of a congregation have received a little bit (sometimes a lot) of extra respect from the rank and file b/s. But as long as that number was decreasing, those in power in Brooklyn had little to worry about.

But for the last couple decades the number hasn't declined. It has increased. And it has increased at an increasing rate.

Are these new anointed seen as a threat to the authority of the GB?

Is the reference to Romans 14:12 and the outright statement that these anointed members of the supposed "faithful and discreet slave" now rank below elders of the "great crowd" a clue?

It is difficult to take the implication that their station below members of the great crowd is due to their own humility seriously. Where is the humility of those members of the "faithful and discreet slave" who rank above the elders? Where is the humility of the capital-G Governing Body?

(I'm still bristling over the fact that they considered Peter, James, and John's first century version worthy of lowercase while naming themselves with capital letters.)

So there's my theory. They're scared. They know their own faults (or at least some of them) and they know those with brains know and they know those with holy spirit know. They're afraid everyone will soon know.

And not to run off on another tangent but the paragraph that puts the rest of the anointed below great crowd elders mentions that these anointed don't believe they have more holy spirit (also lowercase in the article) than the other sheep have. Wha?!? They're anointed with Holy Spirit!!! We of the other sheep have the Bible and whatever amount of Holy Spirit God grants to us in answer to our prayers, that's it. Telling us and the anointed that the anointed don't have any more holy spirit than we do is blasphemous, in my opinion.

Rant off for now. I'm sure this article is going to bug me for awhile, though.

[Eyes & Ears]

I was still thinking about this article today while driving to work, when the thought struck me: Why this article and why now? The purpose of the article is clear:

Elevate the GB and denigrate the rest of the anointed to a status below the great crowd elders.

But why was this seen to be necessary and why now?

I was just musing to myself and thinking, what if the number of Memorial partakers went up again this year? And what if the number of partakers went up significantly? It is well known that historically the anointed members of a congregation have received a little bit (sometimes a lot) of extra respect from the rank and file b/s. But as long as that number was decreasing, those in power in Brooklyn had little to worry about.

But for the last couple decades the number hasn't declined. It has increased. And it has increased at an increasing rate.

Are these new anointed seen as a threat to the authority of the GB?

Is the reference to Romans 14:12 and the outright statement that these anointed members of the supposed "faithful and discreet slave" now rank below elders of the "great crowd" a clue?

It is difficult to take the implication that their station below members of the great crowd is due to their own humility seriously. Where is the humility of those members of the "faithful and discreet slave" who rank above the elders? Where is the humility of the capital-G Governing Body?

(I'm still bristling over the fact that they considered Peter, James, and John's first century version worthy of lowercase while naming themselves with capital letters.)

So there's my theory. They're scared. They know their own faults (or at least some of them) and they know those with brains know and they know those with holy spirit know. They're afraid everyone will soon know.

And not to run off on another tangent but the paragraph that puts the rest of the anointed below great crowd elders mentions that these anointed don't believe they have more holy spirit (also lowercase in the article) than the other sheep have. Wha?!? They're anointed with Holy Spirit!!! We of the other sheep have the Bible and whatever amount of Holy Spirit God grants to us in answer to our prayers, that's it. Telling us and the anointed that the anointed don't have any more holy spirit than we do is blasphemous, in my opinion.

Rant off for now. I'm sure this article is going to bug me for awhile, though.


HMMMMMM TMDC. You have some food for thought at least for me.
Now ya got me scratching my head. Thanks. I understand what you were thinking.

E & E

[Jahsdisciple]

Hi Utuna - i can really relate to your statement:

In the convention I attended last month, as usual, all the efforts and exhortations were focused on the preaching work whereas so many of our b/s desperately need help! I'm sick of it, almost allergic to it now!

I find the same attitude at the meetings - there is such little food dished out on loving care of our brothers and sisters - Jesus said that we should be all treating oneanother like fleshly mothers, fathers, brothers sisters - especially since many have lost our real fleshly family because of the dividing sword of the truth - ive seen many leave the org because of the lack of care and concern -

Hi Billy,
Boy I know how you feel !
ESP:"whereas so many of our b/s desperately need help! I'm sick of it, almost allergic to it now!"

It makes me feel ill actually..its like flooging a dead horse. People need help. Ours B&S need attention. Whats the point in helping new ones if those we already have need care and love. "As long as they have joined thats all that matters"..its seems.

Jesus FELT for people when he saw their dilema. If they were ill,he didnt say "Ive got hours to meet". He was MOVED to actions of love and care. This is real,not the obsession with preaching.

You can go out a whole morning for 2 hours and meeet no-one,but if you spent half of that with someone who needs to have someone visit them,thats far better time spent than a pen mark on a report card !

[FutureMan]

Hi Billy,

You can go out a whole morning for 2 hours and meeet no-one,but if you spent half of that with someone who needs to have someone visit them,thats far better time spent than a pen mark on a report card !

And as shepherds that is what the elders should be doing.
Shepherding the Flock of God's sheep.
That is really where there hours should be spent.:mad:

[noname]

I was still thinking about this article today while driving to work, when the thought struck me: Why this article and why now? The purpose of the article is clear:

Elevate the GB and denigrate the rest of the anointed to a status below the great crowd elders.

But why was this seen to be necessary and why now?

I was just musing to myself and thinking, what if the number of Memorial partakers went up again this year? And what if the number of partakers went up significantly? It is well known that historically the anointed members of a congregation have received a little bit (sometimes a lot) of extra respect from the rank and file b/s. But as long as that number was decreasing, those in power in Brooklyn had little to worry about.

But for the last couple decades the number hasn't declined. It has increased. And it has increased at an increasing rate.

Are these new anointed seen as a threat to the authority of the GB?

Is the reference to Romans 14:12 and the outright statement that these anointed members of the supposed "faithful and discreet slave" now rank below elders of the "great crowd" a clue?

It is difficult to take the implication that their station below members of the great crowd is due to their own humility seriously. Where is the humility of those members of the "faithful and discreet slave" who rank above the elders? Where is the humility of the capital-G Governing Body?

(I'm still bristling over the fact that they considered Peter, James, and John's first century version worthy of lowercase while naming themselves with capital letters.)

So there's my theory. They're scared. They know their own faults (or at least some of them) and they know those with brains know and they know those with holy spirit know. They're afraid everyone will soon know.

And not to run off on another tangent but the paragraph that puts the rest of the anointed below great crowd elders mentions that these anointed don't believe they have more holy spirit (also lowercase in the article) than the other sheep have. Wha?!? They're anointed with Holy Spirit!!! We of the other sheep have the Bible and whatever amount of Holy Spirit God grants to us in answer to our prayers, that's it. Telling us and the anointed that the anointed don't have any more holy spirit than we do is blasphemous, in my opinion.

Rant off for now. I'm sure this article is going to bug me for awhile, though.

Nice comment. I too have been reasoning along those lines.
In one way I know that they are saying that the anointed are to be humble, like every christian, but it is clear from the scriptures that the anointed have a free flow of Holy Spirit.

[TheMdC]

And as shepherds that is what the elders should be doing.
Shepherding the Flock of God's sheep.
That is really where there hours should be spent.:mad:

If the elders spent more time actually shepherding the flock in the ways those sheep need shepherding, rather than hounding them about meeting attendance and field service hours, the meeting attendance and field service hours would go up anyway because the sheep would be more comfortable and happier overall.

The browbeating methods are counter-productive, which can be seen in the lack of growth in the org in western countries.

[SlaveForJah]

If the elders spent more time actually shepherding the flock in the ways those sheep need shepherding, rather than hounding them about meeting attendance and field service hours, the meeting attendance and field service hours would go up anyway because the sheep would be more comfortable and happier overall.

The browbeating methods are counter-productive, which can be seen in the lack of growth in the org in western countries.

http://images.cafepress.com/image/14652867_400x400.jpg
Agape

SlaveForJah

[The Way]

The spiritual food served by the GB these days is way too high on sugars, and we all know such a diet has harmful long-term effects.
(Proverbs 25:27) The eating of too much honey is not good; and for people to search out their own glory, is it glory?

(Proverbs 25:16) Is it honey that you have found? Eat what is sufficient for you, that you may not take too much of it and have to vomit it up.

(Proverbs 27:2) May a stranger, and not your own mouth, praise you; may a foreigner, and not your own lips, do so.
This will turn out to be a grave test on humility, according to Jesus' counsel:
(Luke 14:7-11) 7 He then went on to tell the invited men an illustration, as he marked how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves, saying to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not lie down in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may at the time have been invited by him, 9 and he that invited you and him will come and say to you, ‘Let this man have the place.’ And then you will start off with shame to occupy the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and recline in the lowest place, that when the man that has invited you comes he will say to you, ‘Friend, go on up higher.’ Then you will have honor in front of all your fellow guests. 11 For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled and he that humbles himself will be exalted.”

[Utuna]

The spiritual food served by the GB these days is way too high on sugars, and we all know such a diet has harmful long-term effects.
(Proverbs 25:27) The eating of too much honey is not good; and for people to search out their own glory, is it glory?

(Proverbs 25:16) Is it honey that you have found? Eat what is sufficient for you, that you may not take too much of it and have to vomit it up.

(Proverbs 27:2) May a stranger, and not your own mouth, praise you; may a foreigner, and not your own lips, do so.
This will turn out to be a grave test on humility, according to Jesus' counsel:
(Luke 14:7-11) 7 He then went on to tell the invited men an illustration, as he marked how they were choosing the most prominent places for themselves, saying to them: 8 “When you are invited by someone to a marriage feast, do not lie down in the most prominent place. Perhaps someone more distinguished than you may at the time have been invited by him, 9 and he that invited you and him will come and say to you, ‘Let this man have the place.’ And then you will start off with shame to occupy the lowest place. 10 But when you are invited, go and recline in the lowest place, that when the man that has invited you comes he will say to you, ‘Friend, go on up higher.’ Then you will have honor in front of all your fellow guests. 11 For everyone that exalts himself will be humbled and he that humbles himself will be exalted.”




Dear The Way,

I like the way you quote the Bible!

Welcome to this DB! I hope you will benefit from our spiritual company just as we will all benefit from yours.

My dear brother in faith, may Jehovah help you in everything you do in your personal search for exact biblical knowledge and above all, for exact understanding! Quite a challenge! but as the Proverbs also say in 11:14:

"Where no wise guidance is, the people faileth;
But in the multitude of consellors there is safety". - (ASV)

Is the number nine (the GB) sufficient when spiritual life-and-death decisions for millions of people are at stake?

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[Utuna]

Dear The Way,

ERRATUM

Please read:

Is the number nine (the GB.) sufficient when spiritual life-and-death decisions for millions of people are at stake?

Stupid smileys.... lol

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[The Way]

Hi Utuna, thank you very much! I'm hoping the same!

A very deep concern for what's happening in the organisation of JW is what urges me to post here.

In my perception a central issue underlying this study article is:

Is Gods holy spirit being restrained, silenced even in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses?!?

Is the Spirit dispensed by Christ allowed to operate freely in the congregations worldwide? Are brothers, and especially the ones who profess to be of the anointed, encouraged to reach out for the gifts of the Spirit (those gifts which are applicable in our time of course) and to share them with their fellow believers at meetings? Haven't we come far away in this respect from the model of the first-century congregations? Paul wrote about the recommended course in any Christian congregation:

(1 Corinthians 14:1) Pursue love, yet keep zealously seeking the spiritual gifts, but preferably that YOU may prophesy.

(1 Corinthians 14:15) What is to be done, then? I will pray with the [gift of the] spirit, but I will also pray with [my] mind. I will sing praise with the [gift of the] spirit, but I will also sing praise with [my] mind.

(1 Corinthians 14:19-20) Nevertheless, in a congregation I would rather speak five words with my mind, that I might also instruct others orally, than ten thousand words in a tongue. 20 Brothers, do not become young children in powers of understanding, but be babes as to badness; yet become full-grown in powers of understanding.

(1 Corinthians 14:26) What is to be done, then, brothers? When YOU come together, one has a psalm, another has a teaching, another has a revelation, another has a tongue, another has an interpretation. Let all things take place for upbuilding.

God's spirit would operate together, in symbiosis as it were, with the mind of mature Christians as to build each other up spiritually. Clearly, we shouldn't leave our brains at home when we go to Christian meetings! Note that teachings and interpretations are called gifts of the Spirit, available in any individual Christian congregation.

But wouldn't this lead to chaos and disunity? Not if we believe that it is the ONE spirit of God that brings the ONENESS or UNITY of the Spirit (Read Ephesians 4:1-14). Gods spirit was the primal organizing and unifying principle in the early Christian congregations! Also note that unity is not the same as uniformity.

Why is the GB so afraid of letting Gods spirit operate more freely in the congregations of JW? Imagine how meetings would look like if held more according to this, inspired pattern. Away with the dullness, things would become... exciting again! It may very well be the antidote to 'meeting anxiety', mentioned in another thread.

Do not put out the fire of the Spirit! (1 Thessalonians 5:19)

[TheMdC]

Awesome first two posts, The Way!

I agree wholeheartedly.

Some of that spirit direction occurs here on this forum, I believe, and in our Family Worship Nights at home. I hope to see more of your posts, as I expect this forum to experience some rapid growth over the next several months.

[billy2]

If the "governing body" means the same thing as the "faithful and discreet slave" (according to my understanding of what this study is about) why dont they dump the "governing body" term and just stick with the scirptual "faithful and discreet slave" term - unless the GB title holds more power over the b&s - the term denotes authority, rules, power and control usually accompanied by fear and intimidation - faithful slave has a connotation of humility and servitude - faithful to God and the sheep - looking for the best interests out of love and kindness, care and concern - basically love

[TheMdC]

According to the article, Governing Body doesn't mean the same thing as Faithful and Discreet Slave exactly. They are still giving lip service to the entire body of anointed by saying the entire remnant are the FDS. HOWEVER, the GB is claiming to represent them all in matters of teaching and rule-making. As the article says, the rest of the anointed "have other assignments" which include going in service and staying in subjection to the elders of the great crowd.

I get the feeling that the GB doesn't believe any of the thousands of new anointed are truly anointed.

[Utuna]

According to the article, Governing Body doesn't mean the same thing as Faithful and Discreet Slave exactly. They are still giving lip service to the entire body of anointed by saying the entire remnant are the FDS. HOWEVER, the GB is claiming to represent them all in matters of teaching and rule-making. As the article says, the rest of the anointed "have other assignments" which include going in service and staying in subjection to the elders of the great crowd.

I get the feeling that the GB doesn't believe any of the thousands of new anointed are truly anointed.

Dear TheMdC,

Not that long ago, I remember having heard an elder from my congregation making a comment during a WT study and praising the FDS for the spiritual food they give us all and for all the spiritual arrangements decided in our behalf...

I was boiling inside because I wish I could have told him to think twice before uttering things that are not a reality in God's organization. And I'm sure that despite what's written in the WT article, he'll keep thinking that the FDS is hard working in behalf of their dear brothers of the GC (teaching matters included). God's Word is so right; they are blind! I often wonder why and how they are unable to understand properly what's written in the Bible.

It makes me remember what a brother of my acquaintance, who was in the arabic-speaking field, told me about the Muslim frame of mind.

"They have a mosque in their heart. If you try to destroy it, they'll kick you out of their home before you finish your reasoning. Build instead a KH next to the mosque, and with Jehovah's spirit in their heart, they'll abandon the mosque and, in the end, will let it collapse without remorse."

IMO, the same reasoning applies to the rank-and-file JWs.

Unfortunately, the GB and its blind elders behave as depicted in the picture below:

http://i657.photobucket.com/albums/uu294/Utuna/i664350922-5Huffaker.gif

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"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[TheMdC]

Interesting that you mentioned the Arabic speaking field because I have been thinking a lot about some of the foreign language fields, being in one myself.

Could it be that the Holy Spirit is acting to direct some parts of the organization and not others?

For instance, in some of the smaller language groups, the books on prophecy (Revelation, Daniel, Isaiah, Minor Prophets, etc.) have not been translated. Same goes for the Awake! magazine. Could Jehovah be protecting brothers in certain minority language groups from receiving faulty information, prophetic misinterpretations, and support of the UN?

Hard to say whether it is Jehovah's direction or not, and I can't think of a reason why it might be the case, but I'm sure thankful that my family and I haven't had to go through those books at book study.