To whom do you belong? [Archive] - e-Jehovah's Witnesses: A Place for Jehovah's Witnesses and Interested Ones

FutureMan

11-12-2009, 11:18 PM

Hello all, this morning when I did some study of God's Word, I realized that we all have a choice to make.

So here is a post from my perspective and hopefully from the perspective of God's Word.

Are we going to stay as fleshly persons, or are we going to progress to spiritual maturity and become a spiritual person?

Now as we all who are within the organization or those who once were associated with it knows, that the Watchtower Society are avocating that all God's people belong to the "Faithful and Discreet Slave".

But is this really the case?

Let's look at a couple of scriptures to see what really is the truth of this matter.

(1 Corinthians 1)[LITV]

9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into the fellowship of His Son, Jesus Christ, our Lord.
10 Now I exhort you, brothers, through the name of our Lord Jesus Christ that you all say the same, and there be no divisions among you, but you be united in the same mind and in the same judgment.

Now from this scripture we can see that those who are true Christians are called into fellowship with Christ.

Also the apostle Paul is admonishing his faithful brothers to remain united in the Christ as to his teachings and their actions.

Because as James makes the statement "Faith without works is dead". (James 2:26)

Now as to the unifying force here is what the scriptures states.

(Colossians 3:12-16)[NWT] 12 Accordingly, as God’s chosen ones, holy and loved, clothe yourselves with the tender affections of compassion, kindness, lowliness of mind, mildness, and long-suffering. 13 Continue putting up with one another and forgiving one another freely if anyone has a cause for complaint against another. Even as Jehovah freely forgave YOU, so do YOU also. 14 But, besides all these things, [clothe yourselves with] love, for it is a perfect bond of union. 15 Also, let the peace of the Christ control in YOUR hearts, for YOU were, in fact, called to it in one body. And show yourselves thankful. 16 Let the word of the Christ reside in YOU richly in all wisdom. . . .

So here we see that "love" is the perfect bond of union.

Now another unifying factor is the fact that we are all called to Christ and his heavenly Father, as in one body.

So in effect we all belong to Christ and the body, his heavenly Father, and to no one else.

This reminds me of a scripture in (Ehpesians 2:12, 13) that has this to say.

11 Because of this, remember that you, the nations, were then in the flesh (those having been called Uncircumcision by those having been called Circumcision in the flesh made by hand)
12 that at that time you were without Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers of the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now, in Christ Jesus you who then were afar off, came to be near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He is our peace, He making us both one, and breaking down the middle wall of partition, ...

Yes we were all at one time alienated from Christ and God's love, but now all of us who have taken the steps to take in knowledge and exercise faith in Christ's ransom sacrifice and put our trust in his heavenly Father by taking the necessary steps to get baptized in the name of Jesus Christ and his heavenly Father and in accord with the Holy Spirit, we all can have hope as members of Christ body.

And we all are unified by love as the perfect bond of union and {(the helper), (the spirit of truth), (the Holy Spirit)}.

All true Christians will ultimately come to think alike as one body and act accordingly in harmony with the body.

So let us no longer say that we belong to this one or to that religion or organization or we belong to the "faithful and discreet slave", but rather let us all say with real confidence, that we "belong to Christ" and his "heavenly Father" and to "each other" as the body of Christ.

As this scripture goes on to show.

(1 Corinthians 3)[LITV]
16 Do you not know that you are a sanctuary of God, and the Spirit of God dwells in you?
17 If anyone corrupts the sanctuary of God, God will bring that one to corruption; for the sanctuary of God is holy, which you are.
18 Let no one deceive himself. If anyone thinks to be wise among you in this age, let him become foolish, that he may become wise.
19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God; for it has been written, "He takes the wise in their own craftiness." Job 5:13
20 And again, " The Lord knows the reasonings of the wise, that they are worthless." LXX-Psa. 93:11; MT-Psa. 94:11
21 So let no one glory in men; for all things are yours,
22 whether Paul, or Apollos, or Cephas, or the world, or life, or death, or things present, or things to come; all are yours,
23 and you are Christ's, and Christ is God's.

SlaveForJah

11-13-2009, 12:07 AM

Thanks for that post, FM. Nicely done.

Agape

SlaveForJah

arimatthewdavies

11-13-2009, 02:16 PM

this is confirmation of what i wrote yesterday in the f.d.s thread we as true christiens, cant make those names on ourselves that divide the body, since ive been here ive started threads like this to provoke unto love and good works. i seen people here down right mad because i purpose fully over ilustrate the idea. but you are soo on track, what i have yet to figure out is why people from our kingdom find that our ideas here are on the bad list?

Utuna

11-13-2009, 03:36 PM

Dear Futureman,

You said:

Now as we all who are within the organization or those who once were associated with it knows, that the Watchtower Society are avocating that all God's people belong to the "Faithful and Discreet Slave".The GB's claims are all wrong:

1) The FDS hasn't been appointed yet over Christ's belongings. They'll receive that reward when they are inspected and, as a consequence of their faithfulness, they are sealed. The "game" is not over, for the members of the GB too....

2) Paul said that the present and prospective faithful and discreet slaves (if Jesus said that he would find and reward slaves because they would be found faithful, it means that they already exist...) belong to their brothers and not the other way round.

Christ's body, his bride, his future own flesh, must be found faithful and discreet (Prov31:10-31) before receiving her reward. Once married and recognized as the same flesh as her husband, her authority will be extended to all the belongings of her husband and her voice and orders will be as respected as those of his husband. But she must prove beforehand her worth and her ability to rule what she will be given with LOVE, FAITHFULNESS, and WISDOM.

---------------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

arimatthewdavies

11-13-2009, 04:56 PM

i totaly agree with you jesus said whomever will be greatest must first become the servant it is a little pemature to brag about im the f.d.s.when jesus has not yet come for the bride! i have no problem with the organization saying im going to lead you in service so that we can earn the rewards of a faithful and discreet slave.
but if you go around saying i am the f.d.s whom the master has put in charge..your not very faithfull or discreet. about anything its time people stop claiming they have more authority from jesus then someone else. when jesus said exactly the opisite.

arimatthewdavies

11-13-2009, 05:11 PM

now iv got to give the watchtower credit were credit is due! they have provided an alternate self service feed yourself web site,its ez now if somebody dosent like the waiter there is a table were you can get it your self,disfellowshiped?? because you got upety now you dont have to set on the sinners pew waiting for the elders to give you back your stripes go get what youve been taught to use and preach! trust me on this please jehovah and no one will be able to reproach you! thats another reason im public with my info if i displease jehovah my goose is cooked! if elder joe is displeased but not jehovah, then jehovah will keep joe from hauling me up for disfellowshiping

uglyandthin

11-13-2009, 05:46 PM

Hi Utuna:

I think your comment is very accurate. The bride of Christ must prove themselves faithful and discrete "until" the arrival of the Christ when he will reward them by appointing them over "all of his belongings".

Clearly the current crop of "Christ Bride" wannabees has failed miserably to remain both faithful or discrete. They have failed that test. It was one thing to make the imperfect mistake of being taken in by Satan's wiles and joining the U.N. as an NGO, but it was altogether another matter that when confronted with this unrighteousness, they lied and tried to cover up thier harlotry. I believe they have been rejected by Christ as his flesh, his bride and have become the unenviable "Good for Nothing Slave".

However, as Revelation says at 3:4...

"Nevertheless, you do have a few names in Sardis that did not defile thier outer garments, and they shall walk with me in white ones, because they are worthy."

I believe that these are ones who will be replacements for the original members of the bride who have gone "rotten" and have become spiritual harlots, and that these ones who have remained faithful have either left the Watchtower over various scandals and are waiting for Christ to give them direction, or have remained within the Watchtower but somehow have been able to remain "seperate" of the wrongdoing somehow. They have not "bent thier knee to Baal" in some way (Romans 11:4) It is these ones who will be found by Jesus as being "faithful and discrete" when he arrives in all his glory. As I have said before, I do not aspire to this group, so what I say is not for self agrandizement, but only what I see in the scriptures.

uglyandthin

Eyes & Ears

11-13-2009, 06:19 PM

Thanks for this thread FM. It has finally really sunk in my little head. Thank you
U & T also for your expressions.

************************************************** ***********

Christ's body, his bride, his future own flesh, must be found faithful and discreet (Prov31:10-31) before receiving her reward. Once married and recognized as the same flesh as her husband, her authority will be extended to all the belongings of her husband and her voice and orders will be as respected as those of his husband. But she must prove beforehand her worth and her ability to rule what she will be given with LOVE, FAITHFULNESS, and WISDOM.

Tuna thank you for the meat and potato expression above. The light bulbs finally went off and I now truly understand this.

Now I really understand how serious and offensive spiritual adultery is to Jehovah and why the UN situation was/is so shocking. The magnitude of all this just got through. I thought I understood, but now I have it.

Thank you all so much.

E & E

Anthony

11-13-2009, 07:12 PM

...and that these ones who have remained faithful have either left the Watchtower over various scandals and are waiting for Christ to give them direction, or have remained within the Watchtower but somehow have been able to remain "seperate" of the wrongdoing somehow. They have not "bent thier knee to Baal" in some way (Romans 11:4) It is these ones who will be found by Jesus as being "faithful and discrete" when he arrives in all his glory.

Bottom line…nobody really knows about the identity of the FDS.

On one hand, it’s ridiculous to except that 9 or so that make up the WTS’s GB are the FDS while by their own count around the world, some 9,000 + partake and yet have no part in anything that the GB do. If they are part of that arrangement (thinking that they are one of the 144k) and yet with-in the arrangement of the WTS, in good standing, then that means that they believe the lie has well and pass it along to others.

On the other hand, if one believes that they are part of the 144k and speaks as to be faithful to Christ and is not part of the GB, they would not be able to still remain in the arrangement of the WTS.

By thinking that JW’s are Jehovah’s people, but also feeling that you are one of Jehovah’s people even out side of his arrangement, makes no sense. If that is the case then the 144k can come from anywhere.

If you are part of the WTS and believe you are also one of the 144k, how can you be found faithful if every utterance you speak and teach is that of the GB?

If you are no longer part of the WTS because you left or were tossed out, and you believe you are part of the 144k, then the WTS is not the home address!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(This isn't directed to you Frank, I just used it to express my thought.)

Jinnvisible

11-14-2009, 11:52 AM

On the other hand, if one believes that they are part of the 144k and speaks as to be faithful to Christ and is not part of the GB, they would not be able to still remain in the arrangement of the WTS.

By thinking that JW’s are Jehovah’s people, but also feeling that you are one of Jehovah’s people even out side of his arrangement, makes no sense. If that is the case then the 144k can come from anywhere.

If you are part of the WTS and believe you are also one of the 144k, how can you be found faithful if every utterance you speak and teach is that of the GB?

Tonio you have outlined and identified a frustrating conundrum. A recipe for disaster.

A riddle inside a mystery deep fried in batter with 11 secret hurts and slights. Served on a bed of NGO DPI association. Drizzled in an cheeky little WT bashing sauce. Garnished with ‘laughs out loud’ tower going down relish. With a side order of truth.

I think the tracks might run this way a little.

1914 and such like dodgy speculations are not necessarily personal unfaithfulness although being erroneous. It is the watchtower that attempts and succeeds in making the issue one of faithfulness, but Jehovah sees the heart. There are many bro-sises who, if you told them you didn’t believe in 1914, would not attempt to get you thrown out of the congregation. There are also many elders who would keep confidence if you confided in them personally, and didn’t spread it around.

Then there are elders who would move to have you straightened out, not purely because of any doctrinal concern more out of some misplaced organizational drive, self-concern about faithfulness to Jehovah. Then there are those who out of pride would not let up on you until you recanted or were banished.

As has been pointed out before the Apostles had various misgivings it was not necessarily counted as unfaithfulness.

With error on the scale that is happening right now among the `whole association` the whole association will suffer for that in one way or another, sooner or later. Yet I would say Jehovah God is unlikely to count that error as personal unfaithfulness in individual cases. Again it is a WT overview that God judges ‘organisations’ more than individuals. Yet Jehovah can wreck the organization and then make his own individual judgments. The idol states this is impossible it declares if I go down everyone goes down. Especially in the many cases were the individual bro-sises would not go out of their way to purposely make trouble for others.

Laboring under misconceptions is one thing. For instance the mass apostasy of distributing literature under the WTBTS UN DPI association was done unwittingly by publishers. They really didn’t even have anyway of knowing about that unless they had made it an annual concern to check up on these issues specifically. It would have taken at least internet access in the early 1990’s to apprehend that. Internet access is not a specific requirement of God.

Can we really imagine Jehovah’s judgments in those terms?

Can we imagine god’s prophet announcing “Tonio for the reason that you did not have internet access and apprehend the DPI association in the early 1990’s when AOL was not the sluggish connection that it now is you are counted as unfaithful?”

For me personally this is the point. The attitudes and behaviors of the `whole association` generally in regard to the flourishing of pride, judgmentalism and self righteousness is what should have alerted the spiritually minded to a problem. It seems necessary that the organizational logistics of trouble are recorded, but that isn’t necessarily Jehovah’s main focus. Look at Christ. He confounded the Pharisees but he didn’t seem to particularly enjoy it. He didn’t really seem to go looking for that. He just dealt with it as and when it was necessary.

When you think about the state of Israel’s leadership around the time that Christ was born would you ascertain that Christ was necessary to point out that there was corruption in the Sanhedrin? If the corruption was so wide spread that Christ was moved to speak in such bitter terms about the vipers and scorpions and whitewashed `man-graves` then people would have been feeling that generally. Christ didn’t suddenly turn up and make people aware of this; he just confirmed his own p.o.v. on it with his authoritative speech.

So we can looksie at the things that the WTBTS leadership have done in great detail and relevant to prophesy and scripture but really that shouldn’t be necessary at all to detect that something is awry. That is more a confirmation, or icing on the apostcake.

It’s like Al Capone. He was famously charged with tax evasion.

truthseeker

11-14-2009, 01:24 PM

I marvel how you seem to always rise above the mire, and keep the big picture in focus Jinn.

(Masterfully communicated seasoned with salt)

:) truthseeker

Anthony

11-14-2009, 03:48 PM

Jeshurun

11-14-2009, 03:54 PM

I think the Faithful and Discreet Slave is yourself!

...oooops wrong thread, well, same point!

Jesus said to be followers of HIM, there are no middlemen!!

Love,
Jesh

Anthony

11-14-2009, 04:15 PM

I think the Faithful and Discreet Slave is yourself!

...oooops wrong thread, well, same point!

Jesus said to be followers of HIM, there are no middlemen!!

Love,
Jesh

That's not the correct answer, and there are many reasons why, but since you took the time to answer, maybe you could say where you think his household is?

Thanks

Jinnvisible

11-14-2009, 04:30 PM

A lot written, but I guess I missed the part on the identity of the FDS?

How is it that ones in the so-called household (WTS) that claim that they are one of the 144k but utter every teaching that of the GB any different then the GB themselves?

How are ones not in the WTS supposedly one of the 144k and yet not part of the household?

You also say that “Yet I would say Jehovah God is unlikely to count that "error" as personal unfaithfulness in individual cases.”

Let me put it a different way and see if you still feel the same:

“Yet I would say Jehovah God is unlikely to count that “they may get to believing the lie, because they did not believe the truth but took pleasure in unrighteousness” as personal unfaithfulness in individual cases.”

I could be wrong Anthony.

My view is that the organisational structure is doomed. Yet I don`t believe that everyone who believes in 1914, actually follows the doctrine as a point of pride. So they will either have to let go, or be in trouble. Some do follow it as a point of pride. Some believe a lie and take pleasue in unrighteousness yet that isn`t all inclusive it doesn`t say `all will take pleasure in unrighteousness`. So my assertion is that even though some believe a lie and take pleasure in authority established upon falsehoods, not everyone who believe the lie necesarily take pleasure in it. Thats fairly straight forward for me. Its not difficult for me to believe that many of Jehovah's witnesses have been led down a path by a ring through the nose.

I`m not sure whether you are asking me to comment on the identity of the F&DS or chiding me because you feel I should have commented on that because I am alluding to it contextually. I believe that the Wtbts is a unique and distinct intrument in God's purpose and the association of Jehovah's witnesses to be a distinct movement in God's purpose.

I believe Jesus will likely find faithfull servants in the association of witnesses when he arives in judgement. Could he graft in or count in others from outside the organisational auspices ?

Yes. Will he ? I don`t know. For the most part I see the judgements as being upon the association.

Jinnvisible

11-14-2009, 04:41 PM

If Jesus is a just Master you have to ask yourself why would he beat a faithfull slave ?

If you go and look at the illustration even the faithfull slave recieves strokes from the arriving master so there is a reason for that eh ? Especially considering Christs loving supernature ?

The fathfull slave doesn`t do everything right. He might believe a lie yet not be the one distinctly perishing from 'taking pleasure in unrighteousness- through beliving the lie'..

Anthony

11-16-2009, 12:58 AM

Bottom line…nobody really knows about the identity of the FDS.

On one hand, it’s ridiculous to except that 9 or so that make up the WTS’s GB are the FDS while by their own count around the world, some 9,000 + partake and yet have no part in anything that the GB do. If they are part of that arrangement (thinking that they are one of the 144k) and yet with-in the arrangement of the WTS, in good standing, then that means that they believe the lie has well and pass it along to others.

On the other hand, if one believes that they are part of the 144k and speaks as to be faithful to Christ and is not part of the GB, they would not be able to still remain in the arrangement of the WTS.

By thinking that JW’s are Jehovah’s people, but also feeling that you are one of Jehovah’s people even out side of his arrangement, makes no sense. If that is the case then the 144k can come from anywhere.

If you are part of the WTS and believe you are also one of the 144k, how can you be found faithful if every utterance you speak and teach is that of the GB?

If you are no longer part of the WTS because you left or were tossed out, and you believe you are part of the 144k, then the WTS is not the home address!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Do most anointed get off easy?

We know what happen to first century anointed, somewhat, and we know what will happen to anointed living in the time of the end, but what about all those who were of the anointed that have died in between time?

I mean why is it that history doesn’t show that there are those who have died giving a witness about Jehovah and Jesus and the future kingdom?

If there were any evidence of truly anointed ones dating back from 33 c.e to the present, then there would have been no reason for C.T. Russell to come on seen and start things up again, people would just have kept following that of what these ones were teaching.

Why do those in the time of the end have to prove themselves as to being faithful against the eight King and others seem to have just died off in the sleep?

If true anointed are the ones that are giving the appointment to feed the domestics proper food, why doesn’t history have record of this? When I say proper I mean the truth.

FutureMan

11-16-2009, 03:27 AM

Do most anointed get off easy?

We know what happen to first century anointed, somewhat, and we know what will happen to anointed living in the time of the end, but what about all those who were of the anointed that have died in between time?

I mean why is it that history doesn’t show that there are those who have died giving a witness about Jehovah and Jesus and the future kingdom?

If there were any evidence of truly anointed ones dating back from 33 c.e to the present, then there would have been no reason for C.T. Russell to come on seen and start things up again, people would just have kept following that of what these ones were teaching.

Why do those in the time of the end have to prove themselves as to being faithful against the eight King and others seem to have just died off in the sleep?

If true anointed are the ones that are giving the appointment to feed the domestics proper food, why doesn’t history have record of this? When I say proper I mean the truth.

Hello Anthony, we do have records of a variety of Christians who proclaimed the truth in their time periods, from Pentecost 33 CE onwards.

True they did not have the full understanding of Bible truths, but they did stand out particularly as regards the some of the false teachings of the Catholic church.

Martin Luther was one.
He did not have all the picture, but the again neither did Russell and neither do the anointed ones today have the full picture of Bible truths and interpretations of Bible prophecy.

But they are getting there.

You might not have noticed but there is now a resurgence of Bible truths being propagated and enlarged on by a variety of Christian groups, around the world.

The Witnesses do not have the monopoly on Bible truths anymore, if ever they did.

Such teachings such as the Hellfire doctrine and the immortality of the soul were proven scripturaly to be false by these ones.

arimatthewdavies

11-16-2009, 12:44 PM

jehovah is my god,jesus is my lord ,my familey is jehovahs wittnesses,my aversary is the devil,everything else is satans flypaper! so many hows,ifs,and maybes,ive been baptised since 1975 their was way too much knowledge then about who was who.now im 50 and its 7 times more confuseing! now.
i dont know who is who or when this or thats comeing, and i just dont care because i beleive in jesus he has given me a path so easy that even i can follow it....

arimatthewdavies

11-20-2009, 12:27 PM

truthseeker

11-20-2009, 05:04 PM

i ari testify on behalf of jehovah god,the one true god..i testify that he did apoint jesus christ as lord ,i testify that the holy bibles gospel of jesus christ is true and correct.i proclaim with my mouth that jesus christ is my lord and by him i am to be saved.
i bare wittnesses that satan the devil has in fact been proven a lair,therefore the name of jehovah,and jesus christ are vindicated!

Hi arimatthewdavies

Could I ask a question of you?
Are you a born again in Holy Spirit Christian?
And if the answer is yes are you anointed with a heavenly destination ultimately if faithful till death you will rule with Jesus over the kingdom of mankind?

truthseeker

arimatthewdavies

11-20-2009, 09:28 PM

dear truth seeker ,its a long story but i was once a coke adict and had to go to a facility run by christian princapals after some time their on a day in the meeting room people kept geting up from setting next to me i was embarrassed and checked myself for body odor no joke!.about then about 10 or so older christien men [elders] of the training camp came up to me streched forth their hands toward me[by now my heart was doing about 160 beats per minute] they comenced to tell me that they all felt that god was calling me to be anointed by holy fire[spirit ] well about that time the holy spirit started to talk to my mind about 900 times faster then i thought i could understand. in onley 10 seconds he programed me with several full bibles and gave me the first hand meaning of them i was told i was to be a spirtual general and authority would be givin at the proper time,by now i was extremly humbled and very afraid yet i knew without qustion it was jehovah, he ordered me off my knees and to stand.simutanously the congreation about 200 or so grew absouloutly silent and stood with great respect,,i thing everyone knew god spirit was speaking to me. i was handed a large glass of wine and a flat bread and i knew i was to eat and dip into the wine with the bread i did so,and upon doing so the spirit prompted me to go to the front of the meeting room and i did hold forth the bread and wine in reverance to god upon doing so the 200.300. in the building did stand and one by one took of the bread and did dip the wine one by one they did knell at the stage and pray before jesus swearing their lives and obediance, as to am i called to hevean to live with jesus? a plain straight yes...but i asked what would happen to me if i did not want to be an angel.his words were precise and i am permitted to speak. "who you are can never be change" but i grant it to you to be a man or a spirit.... further you should tell others that all the saved shall enter the new city jeruselum as my guest for the millenium. i have asked to remain a man during the times to come and to decide my permanant home after armagedon the holy spirit did not have a problem with this.....i know that all i have spoken is true because every body at the km treats me like they treat all the old 144000 bros sis i never say anything in the hall or eat or drink the bread wine i know days in advance of whats happening tommorow and its anoying and on the 1 instance some elders kinda threatened me with judicial reveiw cause i was saying stuff not in the watchtower i said simply talk to jehovah and let me know.well that was 11 years ago. i just wish i could pour you a big capacino and tell you whats going to happen and how i know but for now im kinda just waiting till im told ...well i gotta go close the gas station but ill be back tommorow..

shikinah

11-20-2009, 10:42 PM

FutureMan

11-21-2009, 12:38 AM

When one refer to the Holy Spirit, which way is the appropriate way:confused:
Should we call the Holy Spirit "he" or just "Holy Spirit" would calling it he make it a separate personality or being when it is Jehovah's active force?

Hi shikinah, I personally believe that the Holy Spirit is actually an extension of God himself, kind of like an arm or hands that we humans use to achieve our purposes.

Except that the holy spirit is far more superior than that in that it in itself is an intelligent force but not in itself a living entity.

That is why because the Holy Spirit is part of God himself, it cannot have anything to do with anyone doing unholy things and so to that person and to others the Holy Spirit is removed from that person.

As in the example of "king Saul" in Israel.

We must be Holy because god is Holy, and now also his Son is Holy.

1 Peter 1 [LITV]
12 To whom it was revealed that not to themselves, but to us they ministered the same things, which now were announced to you by those having preached the gospel to you in the Holy Spirit sent from Heaven; into which things angels long to look into.
13 Because of this, having girded up the loins of your mind, being sober, perfectly hope on the grace being brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ,
14 as children of obedience, not fashioning yourselves to your former lusts in your ignorance,
15 but according to the Holy One who has called you, you also become holy in all conduct;
16 because it has been written, "Be holy," "because I am holy." Lev. 19:2

The Holy Spirit is utilized in three different ways.

(2) To create all life and things, such as the heavens and our physical universe.

(1) To pass on God's life force on to all his living creation.

For example (Jesus, angels, humans, animals and any
other beings that might exist in his universe.

(3) To monitor and make sure that God's purposes are realized or fulfilled as he had stated and promised according to his inspired word.

truthseeker

11-21-2009, 01:05 AM

Man will never fully understand all of Jehovah’s physical creations let alone the spiritual creation.
Job 36:26 26 Behold! God is more exalted than we can know;
In number his years are beyond searching.

And the means by which he creates and accomplishes his purposes ( Holy Spirit ) is something we will never understand.
As mortals we only observe its effects and the incredible effect it has or can have over us. Holy Spirit is the conduit of all things pertaining to Jehovah.

Isaiah 40 25-29

25 “But to whom can YOU people liken me so that I should be made his equal?” says the Holy One. 26 “Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one [of them] is missing.
27 “For what reason do you say, O Jacob, and do you speak out, O Israel, ‘My way has been concealed from Jehovah, and justice to me eludes my God himself’? 28 Have you not come to know or have you not heard? Jehovah, the Creator of the extremities of the earth, is a God to time indefinite. He does not tire out or grow weary. There is no searching out of his understanding. 29 He is giving to the tired one power; and to the one without dynamic energy he makes full might abound.

truthseeker
We see We believe We obey

shikinah

11-21-2009, 07:22 AM

Thank you Futureman and truthseeker, perhaps its the way i worded my question which was confusing, what you both quoted as to The Holy Spirit I am aware of, but you Truthseeker answered my question unknowingly. All i wanted to know was how do you refer to the Holy Spirit? HE or IT? and Athony you refered to the Holy Spirit throughout your reply as being an "it" and not a "he" so thank you for that:)

Shikinah

uglyandthin

11-21-2009, 03:47 PM

Hi Shikanah:

In your quest to find out what or who the Holy Spirit is, all you have to do is look at Jesus and his behavior. Jesus is and was someone who tries to emulate his heavenly Father in every way, so if we observe what Jesus does, we can be fairly sure that it is because he has seen his Father do this in the past while Jesus was with him in the heavens. (John 5:19)

Jesus gathers (throughout about 2,000 years) 144,000 humans (who will become immortal spirits) to join with him in a covenant as his flesh, his wife. Where did Jesus get this idea? Where he gets all his ideas, from observing his Father. (John 5:19) These 144,000 are covenanted with Jesus just as the Holy Spirits (144,000) covenanted angels are covenanted with Jehovah God as his heavenly Wife or Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is called "the Helper", just as Eve was referred to in relation to Adam her "husband". So when Jehovah wants something done, he sends one or more of the Holy Spirit (or Holy Angels, or Holy Spirits) to accomplish this task with the full power and authority of Jehovah himself. As a side point, Jesus will also have a "helper" a "Holy Spirit" just like his Father as he has passed the test and fully accomplished the task of becoming the essence of Love and therefore God. Jesus is Love and therefore he is also God, as "God is Love". Not Jehovah God, for that is Jesus' Creator, God, and Heavenly Father. No, he is God as in "only begotten God"(John 1:18), whom Jehovah addresses as "my Son", a term of endearment that thus far he only uses in reference to Jesus. (Hebrews 1:5)

To reinforce this idea of The Holy Spirit being a collection (or composite) of 144,000 Holy Angels or Spirits covenanted with God to help in doing his will, read Acts chapter 8 again, particularly the story of Philip and the Eunich. There, the same "individual" is called "Jehovah's Angel" (verse 26", "the spirit" (verse 29) and "Jehovah's Spirit" (verse 39). You can just picture these powerful Holy Angels buzzing like bees, doing the will of thier God in the creation of the physical universe and man and everything around us, all under the power, authority, and direction of Jehovah God.

Now every time that I have heard this event in Acts 8 related from the platform of a talk by one of Jehovah's Witnesses (and I have heard this many, many times) it is always understood that this was Jehovah's Holy Spirit that interacted with Philip, giving him direction as to where to go and when to go there and what to do while he was there. This Spirit was fulfilling the job that he was given by God, doing God's will. So when you read these verses with a critical eye you will see that this spirit, is an angel, and it or he is "Jehovah's Angel", or Jehovah's Spirit. One of 144,000 Holy Angels who are "set aside" or "holy" for that is what "holy" means in one of it's defenitions is "set aside for a special purpose".

I believe that in the Bible when one of these "Holy Spirits" is referred to singularly like in Acts 8 it is referred to as in the masculine, but when it is referred to in the plural, or the whole group of covenanted Spirits, it is referred to using the feminine form. So, individual members are termed he and the group is a she. Which is appropriate for they are symbolically God's Wife.

uglyandthin

truthseeker

11-21-2009, 04:10 PM

Humm Ugly
I detect no conflict of my understanding of scripture in your post.

Interesting perspective!

truthseeker:)

Anthony

11-21-2009, 04:28 PM

("well i gotta go close the gas station but ill be back tommorow…")

(Seems as if there are a lot of fumes floating around this station!!!)

Anyways...

Frank your post is very interesting, but if Jehovah was alone in the beginning and then created Michael and then together created everything else which would included these 144k Holy spirits, isn’t the means of how he did that, his holy spirit or active force?

Maybe I have misunderstood your post?

I’ll reread it…

uglyandthin

11-21-2009, 06:02 PM

Anthony

11-21-2009, 06:37 PM

Hi Anthony:

That might be true if Michael was the firstborn, but nowhere in the Bible is it said that Michael was the firstborn of God. You might infer that by reasoning that Jesus is referred to in the Bible as the "firstborn of all creation" and that Jesus was also Michael before he came to earth. I will grant you that, but, is Jesus the "firstborn of all creation" in the sense of the first being created by Jehovah in the very beginning? Or, is he the firstborn of all creation in the sense of Hebrews 1:5? The first one to become a "real" part of God's "family" as his Son being of his "kind" which exhibits true Love to God's level? I think it is the second and that to try to understand the Bible under any other context will just be confusing and not illuminating.

Search as you may, you will not find any mention to Jesus or Michael being the first "creation" of God prior to the writing of the Gospels or Letters of the Greek Scriptures, after Jesus (Michael) had fulfilled his promise to redeem mankind by his sacrificial death. This is what was done to honor Jesus words when he said, no matter what his "birth" order may have been "here I am send me".

All the great patriarchs of the Bible had firstborn sons (in the physical sense) who proved to be a stain on thier fathers reputation, only to be surplanted by a later born son who lived up to their fathers expectations. That was a lesson for us to understand the true relationship between Jesus and Jehovah. He is the "only begotten God" and "the only begotten Son" in that he is the only one of God's creation that has lived up to his standard of being his "Son" in the truest sense. Like begets Like. Father has Begotten Son. Michael means who is like God. And yes Jesus is Like God. He is the perfect reflection of his Father in the most important quality of all, and that is LOVE.

Jesus was not and is not the firstborn of all creation by his birth order, but by his LOVE. His Love of his Father first, and his Love of Mankind second.

I hope this does not make it more confusing. Don't have time to edit, sorry for any typoes.

uglyandthin

13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

Now with that being said… that has nothing to do with the topic about Holy Spirit being 144k of Jehovah’s Holy Angels (spirits) or it being an active force other then his angels. When ever you believe or think Michael was created, Jehovah still would have had to create these 144k Spirits by some means, making that source “the source” of his spirit to do his active or creating work, not the Angels he creates.

James

11-22-2009, 12:10 AM

13 He delivered us from the authority of the darkness and transferred us into the kingdom of the Son of his love, 14 by means of whom we have our release by ransom, the forgiveness of our sins. 15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,

Now with that being said… that has nothing to do with the topic about Holy Spirit being 144k of Jehovah’s Holy Angels (spirits) or it being an active force other then his angels. When ever you believe or think Michael was created, Jehovah still would have had to create these 144k Spirits by some means, making that source “the source” of his spirit to do his active or creating work, not the Angels he creates.

To me, that is a new concept. That is, that the Holy Spirit is actually 144,000 angels.
i agree with your scriptural arguments Anthony. The holy spirit is Jehovahs' tool for accomplishing His will.

From Roberts' mailbag:
Wednesday, October 18, 2006

What "other" things did Jesus create? (http://e-jehovahs-witnesses-mail.blogspot.com/2006/10/what-other-things-did-jesus-create.html)

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1808/1427/320/mailbag-icon.0.jpg (http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/1808/1427/1600/mailbag-icon.0.jpg)

In Colossians 1:16 Jesus created all [other] things, as the Scripture teaches there is only one Creator who created the heavens and the earth, Adam and Eve, so therefore what other things did Jesus create?

Jesus created all other things with the exception of himself. God personally created Jesus.
The surrounding context of the verse in question states concerning Christ: “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist, and he is the head of the body, the congregation. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that he might become the one who is first in all things; because [God] saw good for all fullness to dwell in him, and through him to reconcile again to himself all [other] things by making peace through the blood [he shed] on the torture stake, no matter whether they are the things upon the earth or the things in the heavens.”

Paul’s writings make it clear that Jesus Christ has a very special and unique relationship with God. He is the very first creature that God created or fathered.It is a wonderful and frightening thought, and beyond our ability to comprehend, but the truth of the matter is that God, Jehovah, has always existed. In fact, he was alone for an eternity – that is until he determined to become the Creator. And the very first thing God created was a person, a person that God made to resemble himself in every way, a person made in his image. (Please note, though, that an image is a reflection of something or someone else. For example, when a person looks into a mirror they see an image; however the image is not the real thing.)

As the beginning of God’s creation Jesus is the only creature that was created directly by God. That’s why he is also called the “only-begotten son of God.” All other sons were brought into existence through the firstborn son. The scripture makes plain that after Jesus was brought into existence he was then given the privilege of creating everything else, including the angels in heaven as well as the physical universe and ultimately Adam and Eve.

But does that make Jesus the Creator? No. Colossians states that God merely worked “through” Jesus. Looking at it from another angle, we might reason this way: Could Jesus have created all things without God's help? No. Had he chosen to, though, could Jehovah have created all things without Jesus' help? The answer is yes. It was merely due to God's magnaminity that he gave his firstborn the privilege to take on the role of a creator. In that way God caused his firstborn to express the fullness of the Father.
It is the same with human parents. Can any human parent honestly take credit for creating another life? Not really. Humans merely take part in the act of procreation, which God (through Christ) set into motion long ago. God himself is the Originator of the marvelous human reproductive system. He is mankind's real Father and Life-giver.
It is the same with Jesus. God created Jesus and then gave Jesus the power, wisdom and authority to create all other things. Christ is the agency through whom Jehovah works, for the good of all Creation.

agape,
James

uglyandthin

11-22-2009, 05:04 AM

Hi Anthony and James:

I'm very O.K. with you believing the way you do. I have no real need for you to see things the way I do. I am just expressing how I see it. I used to believe the same as you in regards to who Jesus is and was and what the Holy Spirit is and was. I don't see it that way anymore, but I don't condemn those that do. It is a very logical and reasonable way to think if you are seeing things from that pre-disposition and of course you could say the same thing about me.

But you never did tell me where it says prior to the writing of the Greek Scriptures that Jesus or Michael was the firstborn of God. Yes, Paul wrote that he is, but that was after he had fulfilled his promise to lay down his life on mankind's behalf. That is after he had proved that he deserved to be "Jehovah's Son" in the truest sense of the word, because he had learned to Love perfectly like his Father. He is the image of his Father, but he grew into that image, he was not that upon his creation. Hebrews 5:8 says that Jesus learned obedience by his suffering and we know that obedience is the precursor to discipleship and growing in the image of another. John 8:31

It does say in Jude that while disputing over the body of Moses, Michael did not dare to bring a judgement against Satan in abusive terms. What exactly does that mean? To me, it says that Jesus (as Michael) did not have the authority to do so, because the minute he gets the authority (or has already recieved it) he forces Satan out of the heavens in very abusive terms, in what was described as a war. If Michael was already the firstborn he explicitly already had the right to do to Satan whatever he pleased, because in the absence of the Father, the firstborn is always boss. Like David, who was a Jesus (Michael) type character in the Bible, Micheal respecfully (not to Satan, but to Jehovah) kept from denouncing Satan in abusive terms out of respect for his Father.

This is much like David did in "waiting on Jehovah" as to when he would become King, and not presuming that it was his position to take what was rightfully his on his time schedule. No, David waited patiently and respectfully for when it was Jehovah's time for him to dethrone Saul and place David on the Throne. Read Psalm 89, especially v20...I have found David my servant; With my holy oil I have anointed him. And vs 27...Also, I myself shall place him as firstborn, The most high of the kings of the earth. David was literally the youngest of Jesse's sons and yet he becomes the firstborn of Jehovah. Not in the strictist sense of course, but the principle is the same. You do not have to be the firstborn in birth order to be considered by Jehovah as the firstborn. He can place you as firstborn, if the true firstborn screws up and you show God that you want to emulate him, especially when it comes to the quality of Love. David and Jesus did both. David with much imperfection, Jesus with perfection.

When Satan sinned and then Adam and Eve sinned, for all intent and purpose all of creation was lost, finished, caputski. By Jesus stepping forward and saying "here I am send ME" and being willing to lay down, not only his fleshly life (on earth), but his angelic life (he left that when he emptied himself and came to earth in a slaves form) he in essence created all things again in that they would again have the opportunity to live the real life, "everlasting life". Also, when you are "placed" as firstborn as Jehovah explains he did with David in Psalm 89, you are treated as if you were "always" the firstborn and you get all the merit of the firstborn. Therefore, Jesus is the firstborn in both senses. He is the firstborn who created all things in a literal sense, whether he actually did or not. And, he is the firstborn in the sense of John 1:8 and Hebrews 1:5, take your pick.

uglyandthin

shikinah

11-22-2009, 05:12 AM

Thank you Uglynthin for you explanation, im a bit confused why everyone keeps explaining what the Holy Spirit is:confused:
I went through this on another thread before i got ill, all i asked was how do you refer to the Holy spirit which is supposedly "it" and not a "he" as Ari had called the Holy Spirit a HE. But thank you for all the answers they were very interesting:)

arimatthewdavies

11-22-2009, 07:01 PM

im happy to see such woderful disscusion on to whom do i belong ,i got to thinking about a scripture that says the whole earth belongs to jehovah and i just had to thank him that we all belong to jehovah evan when we sin we are still his property. i think i would want to be the kind of property that jehovah would like to keep!

arimatthewdavies

11-22-2009, 07:41 PM

i have in interesting thing to think about if michael the angel was jesus while in the heavens. how do we get by heb 1? all things were made by him and for him, since angels are commanded to worship jesus and jesus made the angels.. how can it be said that michael is an angel...created a little higher than man?? im going to say michael was never an angel but that he was jehovahs 1st son specialy apointed to create all other things,anybody care to comment

Anthony

11-22-2009, 08:01 PM

Hi Anthony and James:

But you never did tell me where it says prior to the writing of the Greek Scriptures that Jesus or Michael was the firstborn of God. Yes, Paul wrote that he is, (That's confirmation enough for me!)

uglyandthin

Again, Not relevant to what is or is not Jehovah's holy spirit.

When Jehovah created these so-called Holy spirits (144k angels), by what means did he do so?

arimatthewdavies

11-22-2009, 10:05 PM

how did all the discusions from who is the holy spirit and who is jehovah get in this thread hmmmmmmm

arimatthewdavies

11-23-2009, 12:32 PM

i call the holy spirit he because he the comforter [gods holy spirit] is not an uncounscious it.the holy ghost has at times allowed people to see himself as someone that person/persons love and recognize. the holy spirit is the love of god manifested to a person on a spirtual radio chanel,that same radio chanel can transmit healing,or destruction instantly from jehovah,jesus christ does not tell that spirit what to do ,jesus asks jehovah for this kind fatherlike spirit presesance in the hearts/minds of those that are to receive it, the holy spirit is actully kind of scarry to me because h.s as i call him,, he comes straight from jehovah to you and back, he knows every thing about you feels what you feel and knows what you know and shares with your mind the things jehovah wants you to know...their in lies a danger! this heart to heart messenger is not edited by jesus nor does jesus stop the spirit from delivering jehovahs anger...so if you are dealing with h.s. realise while he is your best freind,,,he can also strike you deader then a doornail ,

shikinah

11-23-2009, 03:21 PM

Well thanks for that Ari:)

arimatthewdavies

11-24-2009, 02:51 PM

i thought i would share this to whom do i belong, i was speaking with a young lady she likes the vampire goth scene,,rather than try to show her the dangers of ocult involvement, i took it another direction ,i said wow all this stuff going on round us sure looks like the final fight between good and evil.pretty soon we started talking about the revelation and how god was going to win the fight.i then brought up the book of cain a favorite apochrapha for goth vampire lovers,the book tells how the vampires grew wise they taught humans to kill each other so they could shape shift into rocks and dirt just laying their soaking up the blood. then i said well it sure looks like that book came true the devil sure had a plan to kill use teach people to draw each other blood to the death..[object of vampireisim] then i said man thats scary as hell im glad im a christien other wise id have no protection from the devil whos the leader of all that. she said yea it is kinda scarry what if im partying goth style and the war starts for real? god would be really -issed! at me! i said with a laugh yup wouldent want the utimate vanhelsing throwin lightning at me, check this out then i showed her some roman road scrips well before long i had her disinchanted with being goth and set up for study..cool one less vampire to bite me l.o.l really on the serious side every one can learn from paul who was good at that sort of fishing work and jehovah probably got a smile out of the way i lured her and seduced her with her own evil stuff then snatched her right outta satans claws! yaaaaa.