Final Sealing

[Steadfast]

The Final Sealing

Revelation 7:1-4 –"After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree.

And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying:

'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.' And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel."

The final sealing happens during the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-7:8), and according to Revelation 8:1-2, the first six seals stand alone because:

"And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them."

So the trumpets (and the plagues) follow the first six seals:

Revelation 8:6 – "And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."

What does this mean? This means that the final sealing takes place at the beginning of the tribulation…not the end.

It also means that the call to repentance for the WT idol worshipping, sinning, anointed sons, is now.

Love,

Steadfast

[littleone]

The Final Sealing

Revelation 7:1-4 –"After this I saw four angels standing upon the four corners of the earth, holding tight the four winds of the earth, that no wind might blow upon the earth or upon the sea or upon any tree.

And I saw another angel ascending from the sunrising, having a seal of [the] living God; and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, saying:

'Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.' And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel."

The final sealing happens during the sixth seal (Revelation 6:12-7:8), and according to Revelation 8:1-2, the first six seals stand alone because:

"And when he opened the seventh seal, a silence occurred in heaven for about a half hour. And I saw the seven angels that stand before God, and seven trumpets were given them."

So the trumpets (and the plagues) follow the first six seals:

Revelation 8:6 – "And the seven angels with the seven trumpets prepared to blow them."

What does this mean? This means that the final sealing takes place at the beginning of the tribulation…not the end.

It also means that the call to repentance for the WT idol worshipping, sinning, anointed sons, is now.

Love,

Steadfast[/b]Very good post Steadfast! :)

What is interesting to note is that these things are also after John says "After this I saw". It is very interesting to see what happens before these things you mention:

And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been. - Revelation 6:10-11

Also it is interesting to note that those of the "Great Crowd" are ones that "come out of the 'Great Tribulation'." When is this provision made manifest? It appears its only "AFTER" the anointed are sealed... only some time during the great tribulation when these ones "come out" of the tribulation does this provision seem to be manifest.

I also find it interesting to note what Jesus was talking about when he said concerning the sign of his presence:

Therefore, when YOU catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place, (let the reader use discernment,) 16 then let those in Ju·de´a begin fleeing to the mountains. 17 Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house; 18 and let the man in the field not return to the house to pick up his outer garment. 19 Woe to the pregnant women and those suckling a baby in those days! 20 Keep praying that YOUR flight may not occur in wintertime, nor on the sabbath day; 21 for then (Greek Word: tote - Meaning: "at that time") there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short... Wherever the carcass is, there the eagles will be gathered together.

[stayawake]

[quote]
[quote]who were about to be killed[/color] as they also had been. - Revelation 6:10-11
[/b]


Good Evening
I hope you don't mind my putting in my thoughts

Take notice scripture tells us that those who were resting and wondering how much longer they had to rest,is speaking of those who have already died that are Christs brothers.
Also take notice they had ALL BEEN KILLED, just as those remaining ones will also be killed.

When was it that any of us were aware that any of the Governing Body being killed. I am not speaking of accidents, I mean killed for following their Head Jesus Christ ?
WHEN was it that the Man of Lawlessness sat in the Temple of God And made himself a god ? 2 Thess 2:1-12
Every member of the GB have lived long healthy lives ,most died of old age, but not a one was killed for his beliefs.Rev 12 :17
Didn't Jesus ask his deciples if they would be able to drink of his cup.?


Could good and evil share the same TEMPLE. Espicially when it had belonged to the True God Jehovah. I DON"T THINK SO>
Would Jahs spirit be with those who were preaching a LIE.
Never could that happen. What do we see Jesus saying in John 8:44 ? Hes telling the Pharasees they belong to the devil, that he was their father, Satan is the father of the lie.

How about the invatation to the Given Ones to help,the GB. They have already set up a arrangement that is foreign to the True God Jehovah.
Where are the True Sons of God?
Would there be a calling with in the WT org from Jehovah?
Would He help them PROMOTE A LIE ?
No WAY ! the calling would go out to those who reconize that LIE and would refuse to support it

The setting up of Gods Kingdom in1914 is a LIE,
Would Jahs spirit really be with the true anointed sons of God who would promote a LIE
GOD CANNOT LIE
So what is it that we have here.??

love stayawake

[Candace]

(Matthew 13:24-30) 24 Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field. 25 While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds in among the wheat, and left. 26 When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. 27 So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field? How, then, does it come to have weeds?’ 28 He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ 29 He said, ‘No; that by no chance, while collecting the weeds, YOU uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest; and in the harvest season I will tell the reapers, First collect the weeds and bind them in bundles to burn them up, then go to gathering the wheat into my storehouse.’”

(Matthew 13:36-43) 36 Then after dismissing the crowds he went into the house. And his disciples came to him and said: “Explain to us the illustration of the weeds in the field.” 37 In response he said: “The sower of the fine seed is the Son of man; 38 the field is the world; as for the fine seed, these are the sons of the kingdom; but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy that sowed them is the Devil. The harvest is a conclusion of a system of things, and the reapers are angels. 40 Therefore, just as the weeds are collected and burned with fire, so it will be in the conclusion of the system of things. 41 The Son of man will send forth his angels, and they will collect out from his kingdom all things that cause stumbling and persons who are doing lawlessness, 42 and they will pitch them into the fiery furnace. There is where [their] weeping and the gnashing of [their] teeth will be. 43 At that time the righteous ones will shine as brightly as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Let him that has ears listen.

Could the good and evil share the same temple? Well, the Bible says that the weeds (sons of the wicked one) are collected "out from his kingdom." So my answer would be yes, but I could be wrong.

(2 Thessalonians 2:1-5) 2 However, brothers, respecting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered together to him, we request of YOU 2 not to be quickly shaken from YOUR reason nor to be excited either through an inspired expression or through a verbal message or through a letter as though from us, to the effect that the day of Jehovah is here. 3 Let no one seduce YOU in any manner, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. 4 He is set in opposition and lifts himself up over everyone who is called “god” or an object of reverence, so that he sits down in the temple of The God, publicly showing himself to be a god. 5 Do YOU not remember that, while I was yet with YOU, I used to tell YOU these things?

The man of lawlessness has yet to be revealed, so I would venture to say, until that happens no one can say when he sat in God's Temple.

[Nambo]

And they cried with a loud voice, saying: "Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?" 11 And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been. - Revelation 6:10-11



Good Evening
I hope you don't mind my putting in my thoughts

Take notice scripture tells us that those who were resting and wondering how much longer they had to rest,is speaking of those who have already died that are Christs brothers.
Also take notice they had ALL BEEN KILLED, just as those remaining ones will also be killed.

When was it that any of us were aware that any of the Governing Body being killed. I am not speaking of accidents, I mean killed for following their Head Jesus Christ ?
WHEN was it that the Man of Lawlessness sat in the Temple of God And made himself a god ? 2 Thess 2:1-12
Every member of the GB have lived long healthy lives ,most died of old age, but not a one was killed for his beliefs.Rev 12 :17
Didn't Jesus ask his deciples if they would be able to drink of his cup.?


Could good and evil share the same TEMPLE. Espicially when it had belonged to the True God Jehovah. I DON"T THINK SO>
Would Jahs spirit be with those who were preaching a LIE.
Never could that happen. What do we see Jesus saying in John 8:44 ? Hes telling the Pharasees they belong to the devil, that he was their father, Satan is the father of the lie.

How about the invatation to the Given Ones to help,the GB. They have already set up a arrangement that is foreign to the True God Jehovah.
Where are the True Sons of God?
Would there be a calling with in the WT org from Jehovah?
Would He help them PROMOTE A LIE ?
No WAY ! the calling would go out to those who reconize that LIE and would refuse to support it

The setting up of Gods Kingdom in1914 is a LIE,
Would Jahs spirit really be with the true anointed sons of God who would promote a LIE
GOD CANNOT LIE
So what is it that we have here.??

love stayawake[/b]

Iam completely in agreement with you on your first point Stayawake, I consider the whole 1919 bit to be far worst than any misunderstanding about 1914.
The society will say its a figarative death and that the preaching work stopped for 3 1/2 years whilst about 8 of them where in prison, then they "came back to life again" when they where released.
I wonder how many people in the world at that time where aware of these "momentus" ocurances?
I think the society are in for a great shock when these scriptures have thier true and literal fullfillment!

Re your second point though, its just as Candace said, and the fleshly Israelites werent allways so pure in thier worship either.

What I would love to know though is, does the "World" or "Field" of Jesus illustration represent just the Jehovahs Witnesses, or surely in view of the original apostasy, all of Christendom including Jehovahs Witnesses.?

[Molly]

The man of lawlessness has yet to be revealed, so I would venture to say, until that happens no one can say when he sat in God's Temple. [/b]

Just a quick question that popped into my head when I read this. To whom will the man of lawlessness be revealed? The world? Those asleep in the congregations? Those who are sighing and groaning?

The world doesn't care. The congregations won't understand. It can only be to those who are still searching for insight. And that might change the timing.

Just my thoughts.

Molly

[Steadfast]

Dear Brothers and Sisters,

Paul said at 2 Thessalonians 2:7: "True, the mystery of this lawnessness is already at work, but only till he who is right now acting as a restraint gets to be out of the way."

So the man of lawlessness has been operational since the first century, but will be fully revealed by Christ:

2 Thessalonians 2:8 – "And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the breath of his mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming."

When will that be? Probably when he comes at the revealing of the sons of God…at the end of the tribulation. Until he returns, the sealed anointed sons will have a very difficult time of it.

Love,

Steadfast

[Molly]

Dear Stayawake

To me it sounds as though the anointed are sealed only when they die faithful.

Your point about the GB not being killed is an interesting one which should make us go HMMMMM! But, I don't know that everyone that was anointed was thrown to the lions either. While they have to die faithful, I'm not sure that they are required to be tortured to death either. Perhaps their trials were on an emotional or spiritual level. What if some of the GB know the truth but can't do anything about it because they are outvoted or would be disfellowshipped for making an issue of something, but they stay to make sure that the truth isn't completely hijacked. Perhaps that is the restraint that 2 Thes. 2:7 is referring to, just as the apostles, particularly John were in the first century.

As far as the evil slave in the house of God, that's a given. He lifts himself up to be a god. It is the evil slave, or the weeds amongst the wheat. The weeds were sown by Satan, so they aren't anointed, but con men pretending to be anointed (after all, you can't tell an anointed by looking at him - just by looking at the fruit he produces). Or, they were anointed that were deceived and chose to follow the man of lawlessness. Removing these weeds should be one of the first things on Christ's agenda when he gets through kicking Satan out of heaven.

The question that then arises is - from an earthly point of view, who/what will be the one to remove the man of lawlessness? And does it happen when the 8th power takes them into captivity, or does that happen separately?

Molly

[Shibboleth]

The sealing has been widely debated and talked about in the organization. I think the scriptures are quite clear and there is nothing for them to debate. Revelation brings out alot of good points. A few steadfast has brought up and I have also discussed some of these with steadfast before. We have similar theories on the sealing.

It is true that the annointed get the final seal of approval when they die. That means they have won their fight and get their reward.

But, right before the GT they are completly sealed. It means that those who are sealed on the earth will not be disobeying God. It is interesting to note that the 2 witnesses are preaching during this GT. What is also interesting is that when Jesus calls his 2 witnesses to heaven 7,000 are killed in an earthquake.

I have some thoeries on this. Many think that the 7,000 is a symbolic number. I don't think it is. i think Jehovah is saying that when there is 7,000 annointed left on earth, His war will start. Now I think this earthquake could be a number of different things. We know that not all the annointed will be in the same place at the same time so a literal earthquake would not be an plausible. It could be that the governments shake the earth with a persecution against the annointed. It could also mean that we may see some sort of miracle during the GT. Maybe we will see these people literally go to heaven like Jesus ascension. Who knows.

What is clear is that there is annointed left on the earth during the GT, but when the war of Armegeddon starts they will not be here but they will be with Jesus and the rest of the annointed. You see, the annointed are going to have the privelege of warring against Satan. The annointed are going to deal out justice for us. That is an awesome privilege. They will literally get to say to Satan "This judgement is for all the things you have done to mankind."

Justice will be served perfectly.

[Molly]

Hello Shibboleth

I think your assessment is quite accurate, especially the part about the 7,000 deaths due to the earthquake. I don't know that it is a literal earthquake, but rather an earth shaking event - the deaths of god's sons. It reminds me of the earthquake after Jesus' death. In any case, it sounds as if there is a final assault on the remaining anointed and they die at the same time. That would be the final sealing. Their deaths should end the 42 months with nothing left to do but eliminate Babylon the Great and whatever the final world power is at that time. Those that make up the great crowd are the only ones left after it is all accomplished.

Molly

[littleone]

We must also keep in mind what some other scriptures say:

Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. - 1Cor 15:51-53

We see from this scripture that not all of the anointed are to fall "asleep [in death]", before they put on immortality, or the "heavenly body". So how does this collaberate with the scriptures in Revelation that mention that all the anointed are to be killed?

Well, this scripture above when referring to the anointed falling asleep [in death], is no doubt speaking as meaning a literal death. Either that be of being killed in the flesh, or dying of old age. However, the scriptures in Revelation say that the anointed are to "be killed". But does this have to mean necessarily that they are to "be killed" physically, and fall asleep in death? Maybe, but maybe not.

We know that these ones are baptised into Christ's death. Therefore, the manner of their dying should be in the same way that thier master died. But of course, Jesus Christ was the whole vine, they are just a part of that vine. But nonetheless, since they are baptised into Christ's death, then they are to experience sufferings that are similar to Christ's sufferings, and they must die a death similar to his.

Lets consider the account of one of Jehovah's chosen vessels that was indeed "sealed", BEFORE having died in the flesh... lets take a look at the Apostle Paul:

For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the due time for my releasing is imminent. 7 I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. 8 From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give me as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation.- 2Timothy 4:6-8

Here Paul tells us that he has indeed "run the course to the finish", and that the "crown of righteousness" was reserved in heaven for him. Yes, he was indeed "sealed". But what was at the finish? He says: "I am already being poured out like a drink offering". How was he already being "poured out like a drink offering"? Well, we have to take a look at the circumstances that Paul was in. He was writing Timothy from prison, probably from Rome.

But how did he become a prisoner in Rome?

Now when these things had been completed, Paul purposed in his spirit that, after going through Mac·e·do´ni·a and A·cha´ia, he would journey to Jerusalem, saying: "After I get there I must also see Rome." - ACTS 19:21

So we see that Paul purposed it in his spirit that he should go to Jerusalem, but what happens? Did he know what was going to happen to him in Jerusalem? Apparently he did, for he says:

"And now, look! I know that all of YOU among whom I went preaching the kingdom will see my face no more. Hence I call YOU to witness this very day that I am clean from the blood of all men, for I have not held back from telling YOU all the counsel of God" - ACTS 20:25-27<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>also:<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>But while we were remaining quite a number of days, a certain prophet named Ag´a·bus came down from Ju·de´a, and he came to us and took up the girdle of Paul, bound his own feet and hands and said: "Thus says the holy spirit, &#39;The man to whom this girdle belongs the Jews will bind in this manner in Jerusalem and deliver into the hands of people of the nations.&#39;" -Acts 21:10,11
<a href="http://" target="_blank">
</a>An interesting thing to note is that nowhere in the account of Paul going up to Jerusalem and entering the temple does it mention the JEWS literally binding his hands and his feet. But we must not conclude that the holy spirit lied. Therefore how was it that his hands and feet were tied? Let us use some discernment:
<a href="http://" target="_blank">
</a>When we got into Jerusalem, the brothers received us gladly. But on the following [day] Paul went in with us to James; and all the older men were present. And he greeted them and began giving in detail an account of the things God did among the nations through his ministry. After hearing this they began to glorify God, and they said to him: "You behold, brother, how many thousands of believers there are among the Jews; and they are all zealous for the Law. 21 But they have heard it rumored about you that you have been teaching all the Jews among the nations an apostasy from Moses, telling them neither to circumcise their children nor to walk in the [solemn] customs. 22 What, then, is to be done about it? In any case they are going to hear you have arrived. 23Therefore do this which we tell you: We have four men with a vow upon themselves.24 Take these men along and cleanse yourself ceremonially with them and take care of their expenses, that they may have their heads shaved. And so everybody will know that there is nothing to the rumors they were told about you, but that you are walking orderly, you yourself also keeping the Law. 25 As for the believers from among the nations, we have sent out, rendering our decision that they should keep themselves from what is sacrificed to idols as well as from blood and what is strangled and from fornication." - Acts 21:17-25<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>Wow! What is going on here??? The believers (no doubt those who called themselves Christians) in Jerusalem are now all "zealous for the law"? What happened to being zealous for Jesus Christ who abolished the law with his death? All of a sudden these older men were telling Paul that he should ceremonially cleanse himself according to the law of Moses, to outwardly show that he himself was in subjection to the Mosaic law! Why did they want him to do this? So that everybody will know that Paul himself is keeping the Mosaic law!<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>This sort of reasoning was in DIRECT contrast to that of the teachings of Jesus Christ. In Paul&#39;s epistle to the Galatians, he warned them that all those going back to the Mosaic law are making the sacrifice of Jesus Christ useless. For they are cutting themselves off from the freedom in connection with Jesus Christ. Lets look at a couple of those scriptures:<a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>See! I, Paul, am telling YOU that if YOU become circumcised, Christ will be of no benefit to YOU. 3 Moreover, I bear witness again to every man getting circumcised that he is under obligation to perform the whole Law. 4 YOU are parted from Christ, whoever YOU are that try to be declared righteous by means of law; YOU have fallen away from his undeserved kindness. 5 For our part we by spirit are eagerly waiting for the hoped-for righteousness as a result of faith. 6 For as regards Christ Jesus neither circumcision is of any value nor is uncircumcision, but faith operating through love [is]. <a href="http://" target="_blank">

</a>YOU were running well. Who hindered YOU from keeping on obeying the truth? (http://) This sort of persuasion is not from the One calling YOU. A little leaven ferments the whole lump. I am confident about YOU who are in union with [the] Lord that YOU will not come to think otherwise; but the one who is causing YOU trouble will bear [his] judgment, no matter who he may be- Galatians 5:2-10

Why were these, Paul&#39;s brothers, trying to get Paul to conform to "the law", when they themselves knew that by doing so one would be "parted from Christ"? This thing must have proven to be very difficult for Paul to swallow. In his earlier writings, Paul was vehemently opposed to doing such thing. But nevertheless, Paul went ahead and performed the cleansing ceremony. However, he never did get to give "the offering". Before this could occur, on the seventh day, the Jews from Asia caused a commotion, and the Jews took to beating Paul. Thankfully, he was rescued by the Roman officer, and not beaten to death. But who was it that really handed Paul over to the "people of the nations" as Agabus prophesied? Who was it that bound his hands and feet according to what the Holy spirit said? The Jews in the temple were happy to beat Paul to death... they weren&#39;t wanting to hand him over. As a matter of fact, the Roman soldiers interceeded in Paul&#39;s behalf. Paul certainly wasn&#39;t handed over by those Jews beating him, for the scriptures say:

And while they were seeking to kill him, information came up to the commander of the band that all Jerusalem was in confusion; 32 and he at once took soldiers and army officers and ran down to them. When they caught sight of the military commander and the soldiers, they quit beating Paul. 33 Then the military commander came near and took hold of him and gave command for him to be bound with two chains; and he proceeded to inquire who he might be and what he had done. - Acts 21:31-33

The scripture clearly tells us that those Jews in the temple were not trying to "hand Paul over", rather they were trying to kill him. The scripture also clearly shows us that the Roman commander "came near and took hold of him". So who was it that "bound Pauls hands and feet and delivered him into the hands of people of the nations" as spoken by Agabus the prophet? Was it not Paul&#39;s own brothers, those that claimed to be fellow believers in the "faith"? By making Paul submit to their own desires, they betrayed him. They tried to make him submit to their own transgressions against Jesus Christ. They themselves had parted from the freedom in connection with Jesus Christ by going "BACK TO" the law of Moses. They were like Lot&#39;s wife who turned and looked back.

But by this betrayal, they showed themselves for what they really were... betrayers of Jesus Christ and his brethren. Paul went like a sheep that was being led to the slaughter. His sufferings from that event proved to be great. He was beaten, ridiculed, and taken prisoner to Rome. But Jehovah&#39;s blessing was still upon him. Also take note that Jehovah did not allow for the seven days of cleansing to come to fullfillment. There never was an offering given in Paul&#39;s behalf, according to the law of Moses, after the seven days of cleansing. Before that could happen, Paul was already in the hands "people of the nations". Jehovah did not allow this for Paul, and interceded before that offering according to the old law could be made.

But nonetheless, just as Jesus Christ was betrayed by Judas Iscariot, Paul himself was betrayed by his own brothers. Although he did not die in the flesh, he was killed in the sense that his own brothers betrayed him, and handed him over to the "people of the nations". In this regard Paul was counted worthy to receive the crown of righteousness, because he himself was "poured out like a drink offering". He fought the fine fight. He completed the course to the finish.

So this is one example of how one of the anointed in the scriptures was killed, yet still alive according to the flesh. Therefore, we can say that all the anointed have to die in a manner according to the sufferings of Jesus Christ, to receive their "sealing". However, the scriptures give us ample evidence that not all must die and fall asleep [in physical death].

[Steadfast]

Dear LittleOne,

I found your discussion about Paul fascinating and very insightful. It makes perfect sense the way you explained it...using the scriptures to back up your thoughts.

Love,

Steafast

[Shibboleth]

Dear LittleOne,

I found your discussion about Paul fascinating and very insightful. It makes perfect sense the way you explained it...using the scriptures to back up your thoughts.

Love,

Steafast[/b]


Littleone hit the nail on the head and I was thinking of the same scenario with Paul.

I think the Society wants to stay away from the notion of a "rapture-like" event happening. I mean, it is plausible. We could see an actual calling to heaven and when people see that it is made up of Jehovah&#39;s annointed they will either fight against that or embrace it. But I think we will all see a miracle happening during the GT that makes everyone in the world choose their side.

[Jeshurun]

I think we will all see a miracle happening during the GT that makes everyone in the world choose their side.[/b]

I think the fall of Babylon collapses Satan&#39;s whole house of cards and everyone on earth will know that Jehovah created the heavens and the earth and Satan will come out of the closet and be worshipped overtly while everyone on earth makes an educated conscientious decision on which government they want ruling over them.

Maybe one day I&#39;ll share what I think collapses that house of cards, but I don&#39;t want to wreck whatever credibility I have left here!

Agape
Lou

[littleone]

<div class='quotemain'>Dear LittleOne,

I found your discussion about Paul fascinating and very insightful. It makes perfect sense the way you explained it...using the scriptures to back up your thoughts.

Love,

Steafast[/b]
But I think we will all see a miracle happening during the GT that makes everyone in the world choose their side.
[/b][/quote]Concerning the Great Tribulation, Jesus warns that when you "catch site" of the "disgusting thing that causes desolation" to begin fleeing. Where? He mentions "where the carcass is, there the eagles will be found". This carcass is no doubt a provision of Jesus Christ, where those partaking of it find life. Luke chapter 21 tells us to flee to the "mountains". But the important thing to note in all of this is that it is the "disgusting thing" that CAUSES desolation. It is what causes the great tribulation.

So we better, each and every one of us, use discernment, and make sure we know and understand what the disgusting thing is. Our lives could very well depend on it.

Jesus did mention concerning his parable about when he sits on his glorious throne that it was those that came to the aid of "these least ones, my brothers" that received the kingdom. Note also how bad a plight these "least ones" found themselves in. They find themselves in a very similar situation as the Apostle Paul found himself in, how he was "poured out like a drink offering", do they not?

Was the Roman Armies really the "disgusting thing that caused desolation" as spoken about by the prophet Daniel? Were they really a "disgusting thing" in Jehovah&#39;s eyes?

[Juan]

We must also keep in mind what some other scriptures say:

Look! I tell YOU a sacred secret: We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, during the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised up incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this which is corruptible must put on incorruption, and this which is mortal must put on immortality. - 1Cor 15:51-53

We see from this scripture that not all of the anointed are to fall "asleep [in death]", before they put on immortality, or the "heavenly body". So how does this collaberate with the scriptures in Revelation that mention that all the anointed are to be killed?[/b]

Interesting discussion. Thank you for your insight.

[NEW HEART]

"We see from this scripture that not all of the anointed are to fall "asleep [in death]", before they put on immortality, or the "heavenly body". So how does this collaberate with the scriptures in Revelation that mention that all the anointed are to be killed?"


What if being killed, (put to death) is symbolic? They have been put to death in the flesh, and are now spiritual sons and daughters, that have taken refuge in Jehovah. They have died to this worlds foolish wisdom and have washed their robes in the blood of the lamb, and have been changed from fleshly to spiritual, thus having already died a fleshly death, and have been ressurrected sons and daughters, and made alive in the Spirit.

Many of the annointed have already passed on through old age, they did&#39;nt get killed by being put to death violently, no, they died already to the world and the entire ways of this world&#39;s foolish wisdom and were already being taught by the Holy Spirit, not through human wisdom, but through the wisdom of God. Their vows they pay to Jehovah, yes in front of all people. Presious in the eyes of Jehovah is the death of his loyal ones. (ps. 116:14-15) sin became dead in them, thats how they died and were put to death.


Romans 7: 5-

For when we were in accord with the flesh, the sinful passions that were excited (by the Law) were at work in our members that we should bring forth fruit toward death. But now we have been discharged from the Law , because( we have died )to that by which we were being held fast, that we might be slaves in a new sense by the Spirit, and not in the old sense by the written code.

New Heart

[NEW HEART]

here is another scripture also I thought fir this....

2 Cor. 5: 15-17

and he died for all that those who live might live no longer for themselves, but for him, who died for them and was raised up. Consequently if anyone is in union with Christ, he is a new creation; (the old things passed away), LOOK! new things have come into exsistance. They are reconciled to God.

They have died to the works belonging to darkness, and put on the weapons of light.

New Heart

[Nambo]

Interesting points New Heart, but I feel the following scriptures are quite specific where it talks about the annointed being "slaughtered" just as Jesus was "slaughtered", and about vengence being carried out on those who did the slaughtering.

9 (http://) And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those slaughtered because of the word of God and because of the witness work that they used to have. 10 (http://) And they cried with a loud voice, saying: “Until when, Sovereign Lord holy and true, are you refraining from judging and avenging our blood upon those who dwell on the earth?” 11 (http://) And a white robe was given to each of them; and they were told to rest a little while longer, until the number was filled also of their fellow slaves and their brothers who were about to be killed as they also had been.

"about to be killed as they also had been", maybe this could indicate that all the annointed have let themselves be put into a position of imminant execution in the last days due to thier witnessing work which they refuse to stop for no man has love greater than this that he would lay down his life for his fellow man.
When the end comes and maybe execution camps have all the remaining annointed in them, and Jehovah can see that just as Abraham was about to offer up his son, so he stopped him, Jehovah can see that those final annointed that where about to be killed would also follow through, so thats when Jehovah says "enough", saves them from having to suffer the horrible death he knows they would willingly go through, and then brings the end.

[stayawake]

[quote]


Dear Nambo
I see all this as you do. I am responding only because you used the term MAYBE.
My additional thoughts on this is also a MAYBe so here goes

We all know that Flesh and Blood cannot inherit the heavens. Christ Jesus himself had to leave his body to go back with his Father.

According to Ezk 38-39 chapters , that final streach of the GT has to be forced by Jah.
Jesus had said the GREAT TRIBULATION would be soo great , unless those days were cut short no flesh would be saved, but because of the Chosen ones those days are cut short. The annointed cannot die of natural causes, this would make Gods word a lie. This is WAR. Rev 12:17

Now keep in mind The Annointed play a very important part in this Drama, they will be the ones who really start Armagedden
also keep in mind That they were to also drink of the same cup that Jesus did.

Well anyway back to the GT
Conditions may be so bad that MAYBE if they ( annointed )are put in camps for not taking the mark of the Beast it will also stop the preaching , as they will be viewed as our ( GC) Leaders.

The preaching of course will be the GOOD NEWS OF GODS MESSEANIC KINGDOM being set up.
Satan may feel that thats the end with them in camps and that he had won. A false sense of SECURITY )

Oh! NO ! Never let that happen! Jehovah has gotton this far with HIS PURPOSE, satan is NOT goiing to stop Jah now. Jah cannot LIE. The annointed must be killed

Satan Knows what will happen if he does go that course, Thats the reason Jah has to put HOOKS in Gogs Jaws and FORCE the ISSUE,
The attack to put all the annointed to death takes place ( MAYBE execution )
this of course is like touching Jahs eyeball / which brings on ARMEGEDDEN, or the end of the Great tribulation

Now remember these are just my finishing touches to NAMBOs Post
.These are all just MAYBE, so I only speak for myself.
Love stayawake

[billy]

I agree with you Nambo and Stayawake

It appears to me the "death" is a literal one - theres so many scriptures - as brought out of Christ&#39;s brothers dying a similar death to Jesus - this is the ultimate test of giving ones life - when you look back at the 1st, 2nd centuries in history there are many accounts of persecution and death - Nero burned the christians on poles, threw them into areanas to be killed by wild animals - even in the wt literature there is an article about the "10 persecutions" that that happened over the first 200 years of christianity - so i cant see it being much different in our time - as you brought our previous Stayawake the GB havent suffered anything like this or those claiming to be anointed - I have read of the "great crowd" beiing badly persecuted - ie Malawi, HItlers regime, etc -
so it could be there is a great persecution to come - especially for the ones who are going to rule with Christ - it only makes sense that for one to be chosen to be given such power and rulership with Christ one would have to prove they are beyond corruption



<span style="color:#4169e1">["We see from this scripture that not all of the anointed are to fall "asleep ", before they put on immortality, or the "heavenly body". So how does this collaberate with the scriptures in Revelation that mention that all the anointed are to be killed?"]

that means to me they wont stay asleep in death or hades but will immediatly be transformed into spirit beings

Something keeps bothering me about who "Spiritual Israel" is composed of</span>

Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until after we have sealed the slaves of our God in their foreheads.&#39; And I heard the number of those who were sealed, a hundred and forty four thousand, sealed out of every tribe of the sons of Israel." (were bought from among mankind as firstfruits Rev 14:4) - it appears the 144,000 are chosen out of a much larger group - similar to the ancient nation of Isreal with the Levites chosen to be priests

Rev 7 ;9 After these things I saw, and, look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep on crying with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation [we owe] to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb - the great crowd appear to be very simiar to the chosen ones - they also wore the white robe that was washed in the blood of the lamb - and like the Isrealites waving palm branches when Jesus arrived in Jerusalem as King so these ones are also doing - they are being spoken of as being saved from death

maybe thats whay the tribulation has to be cut short - or no flesh would be saved - maybe these remaining "Isrealites" are the ones chosen to be saved here on earth who are the great crowd of spiritual israelites

Matt 7:21 for then there will be great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again. 22 In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; [i]but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short :Yahoo_33:

[Molly]

Nambo, Stayawake and Billy-

I am in agreement that the anointed must suffer a literal death. Otherwise, how would their corpses lie on the broad way for 3 and 1/2 days until Jehovah breathes life back into them (Rev. 11: 8,9). This is to be a miraculous regeneration of stupendous proportions resulting in great fear on those beholding it. Imagine 7,000 persons regaining life! If they never actually died, who would be impressed.

In Rev. 17: 14 the ones who do battle alongside the Lamb are referred to as "those called and chosen and faithful" - three distinct aspects of their perosnalities. First they are called as all the sheep are (John 6: 44), then they are chosen (Matt. 22: 14) and finally they are faithful, which is the whole point of their deaths.

Molly

[NEW HEART]

What does it mean then in this scripture?

Rev. 3 : 9-13

Look! I will give those from the synagogue of Satan who say they are Jews, and yet they are not but are lying--Look! I will make them come and do abeisance before your feet and make them know I have loved you. Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also (keep you from the hour of test )upon those dwelling on the earth. I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

The one that conquers--I will make him a pillar" in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out ( from it ) anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem which (descends out) of heaven from my God, and that new name of mine.


I am wondering, just what could keeping from the hour of test mean? Is it from being persecuted? Killed?

New Heart

[Steadfast]

Dear New Heart,

New Heart said: "Revelation 3:10 – Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test upon those dwelling on the earth. I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown.

I am wondering, just what could keeping from the hour of test mean? Is it from being persecuted? Killed?"

My comment: Another translation of this verse puts it this way:

(BBE) "Because you have kept my word in quiet strength, I will keep you from the hour of testing which is coming on all the world, to put to the test those who are on earth."

These words are spoken by Jesus when he comes to the temple for inspection, so keeping them in context is important. He admonishes his brothers: "I am coming quickly. Keep on holding fast what you have, that no one may take your crown."

This seems to be going on right now and will continue until the great tribulation starts.

Jesus isn&#39;t saying that the anointed congregation doesn&#39;t experience tribulation, because to say they don&#39;t, would not be in keeping with what other scripture indicates. What Jesus is talking about is the &#39;hour of test that is about to come upon the whole inhabited earth.&#39; This hour of test would be the great tribulation.

To further understand what Jesus is saying, we go to Revelation 11, which describes what the two witnesses do and what will eventually happen to them:

Verse 3 – And I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy a thousand two hundred and sixty days dressed in sackcloth.

Verse 4 – These are [symbolized by] the two olive trees and the two lampstands that are standing before the Lord of the earth.

Verse 5 – And if anyone wants to harm them, fire issues froth from their mouths and devours their enemies; and if any one wants to harm them, in this same manner he must be killed.

Verse 6 – These have the authority to shut up heaven that no rain should fall during the days of their prophesying, and they have authority over the waters to turn them into blood and to strike the earth with every sort of plague as often as they wish.

Verse 7 – And when they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will make war with them and conquer them and kill them.

The two witnesses seem to have divine protection until their witnessing is finished, and then they are killed. No doubt the divine protection of the two witnesses during their preaching work enrages the wild beast, and this is part of the motivation to put them to death.

Love,

Steadfast

[stayawake]

Thank you Steadfast,
that not only was nice and clear, but made complete sense
love stayawake

[littleone]

It is also interesting to note that Jesus Christ himself, like the two witnesses, was given divine protection, until his ministry was complete, then he was allowed to be killed. In his case, this was a physical death.

Also interesting to note is what Paul mentioned to the Hebrew Christians in Hebrews chapter 6. He says concerning those who "fall away" from the heavenly calling:

For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, 5and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things,6 but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame. - Hebrews 6:4-6

Notice here what these ones do... they "impale" the Son of God afresh. Of course, this does not mean that Jesus has to suffer numerous deaths. However, by their actions, these ones do "slaughter" him in the sense that they kill off all provisions concerning him for themselves and for those that follow their course. So this is one instance where it can be shown that "impaling or slaughtering" is done in the symbolic sense.

Likewise, in my earlier post on this thread, I tried to show how Paul himself was "sealed" without having experienced a literal physical death. Was he slaughtered? He most certainly was... yet, not physically. He was betrayed by his own brothers, and "handed over".

We do read in Revelation that ALL the anointed are to be "killed", or "slaughtered". However, we also read from Paul&#39;s writings that not all the anointed are to be killed in the flesh when Jesus arrives. And some are to be changed "in the twinkling of an eye". So although many may be killed in a physical sense, it does not mean that all have to be necessarily killed "physically".

Molly, you ask: "I am in agreement that the anointed must suffer a literal death. Otherwise, how would their corpses lie on the broad way for 3 and 1/2 days until Jehovah breathes life back into them?"

To answer this, lets take a look at where this "broad way" is.

And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod´om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled
- Revelation 11:8

Notice that this is a "great city", which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt. It itself is given a spiritual name... that of Sodom and Egypt. The city of Sodom no longer exists, and we know that Egypt itself is a country and not a city. So where does this "broad way" exist? Where is it that their physical bodies would lie? Since we cannot point to an exact place on earth and say "right there", then we have to recognize that this "great city" is in fact a spiritual city itself. Also, the "broad way" that is being spoken about is itself a spiritual "broad way". There is not a literal city with a literal "broad way" being spoken about. Therefore, does it also not stand to reason that their "corpses" may not also be literal as well?

We must remember that in Revelation 1:1 we read:

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John - Revelation 1:1

The book of Revelation was presented in "signs". This means that these things "represent" other things. They are "signs", or symbolic, concerning both literal and spiritual things that will take place. These signs were give by Jehovah, to Jesus Christ, to his angel who presented them to John. The origin of these signs was Jehovah himself, so they are given as "HIS" perspective of things. He is a "spirit". And in order for him to talk about spiritual things, and things concerning the spiritual realm to our earthly and human minds, he presents things in signs. How else could he explain things to us that we cannot see, nor behold because they are spiritual? Therefore, he uses signs. No doubt that since these spiritual words concern not only heaven, but earth as well, that they will have a manifestation here on earth. But that manifestation could very well turn out to be very different than which we ourselves imagine.

[Molly]

It is also interesting to note that Jesus Christ himself, like the two witnesses, was given divine protection, until his ministry was complete, then he was allowed to be killed. In his case, this was a physical death.

Also interesting to note is what Paul mentioned to the Hebrew Christians in Hebrews chapter 6. He says concerning those who "fall away" from the heavenly calling:

For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, 5and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things,6 but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame. - Hebrews 6:4-6

Notice here what these ones do... they "impale" the Son of God afresh. Of course, this does not mean that Jesus has to suffer numerous deaths. However, by their actions, these ones do "slaughter" him in the sense that they kill off all provisions concerning him for themselves and for those that follow their course. So this is one instance where it can be shown that "impaling or slaughtering" is done in the symbolic sense.

Likewise, in my earlier post on this thread, I tried to show how Paul himself was "sealed" without having experienced a literal physical death. Was he slaughtered? He most certainly was... yet, not physically. He was betrayed by his own brothers, and "handed over".

We do read in Revelation that ALL the anointed are to be "killed", or "slaughtered". However, we also read from Paul&#39;s writings that not all the anointed are to be killed in the flesh when Jesus arrives. And some are to be changed "in the twinkling of an eye". So although many may be killed in a physical sense, it does not mean that all have to be necessarily killed "physically".

Molly, you ask: "I am in agreement that the anointed must suffer a literal death. Otherwise, how would their corpses lie on the broad way for 3 and 1/2 days until Jehovah breathes life back into them?"

To answer this, lets take a look at where this "broad way" is.

And their corpses will be on the broad way of the great city which is in a spiritual sense called Sod´om and Egypt, where their Lord was also impaled
- Revelation 11:8

Notice that this is a "great city", which is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt. It itself is given a spiritual name... that of Sodom and Egypt. The city of Sodom no longer exists, and we know that Egypt itself is a country and not a city. So where does this "broad way" exist? Where is it that their physical bodies would lie? Since we cannot point to an exact place on earth and say "right there", then we have to recognize that this "great city" is in fact a spiritual city itself. Also, the "broad way" that is being spoken about is itself a spiritual "broad way". There is not a literal city with a literal "broad way" being spoken about. Therefore, does it also not stand to reason that their "corpses" may not also be literal as well?

We must remember that in Revelation 1:1 we read:

A revelation by Jesus Christ, which God gave him, to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place. And he sent forth his angel and presented [it] in signs through him to his slave John - Revelation 1:1

The book of Revelation was presented in "signs". This means that these things "represent" other things. They are "signs", or symbolic, concerning both literal and spiritual things that will take place. These signs were give by Jehovah, to Jesus Christ, to his angel who presented them to John. The origin of these signs was Jehovah himself, so they are given as "HIS" perspective of things. He is a "spirit". And in order for him to talk about spiritual things, and things concerning the spiritual realm to our earthly and human minds, he presents things in signs. How else could he explain things to us that we cannot see, nor behold because they are spiritual? Therefore, he uses signs. No doubt that since these spiritual words concern not only heaven, but earth as well, that they will have a manifestation here on earth. But that manifestation could very well turn out to be very different than which we ourselves imagine.[/b]

Dear Littleone-

At the time you wrote to convince us that Paul considered his beating in Jerusalem to be a trick on the part of the brothers in Jerusalem to have him go back to the Mosaic Law. I do not know why Paul chose to ceremonially cleanse himself, but to argue that his saying, "For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the due time for my releasing is imminent,"(2Tim. 4:6) proves that he regarded the incident at Jerusalem as a symbolic death is not acceptable to me. First of all, Christ Jesus was not the least bit upset with Paul for the incident. For after the skirmish in the temple and his withness to the Sanhedrin, we read at Acts 23: 11, "But the following night the Lord stood by him and said: &#39;Be of good courage! For as you have been giving a thorough witness on the things about me in Jerusalem, so you must aso bear witness in Rome.&#39;" Far from being offended, he praised Paul for giving a fine witness.

Second, 2 Timothy 4:6 was expressed as much as 6 or 7 years after the incident in Jerusalem. Acts of the Apostles was finished 60 CE, after Paul had been in Rome for about two years. The book of 2 Timothy was finished in Rome in 65 CE. That would be a long time for Paul to hold a grudge against those brother. Rather consider the time frame. History indicates that Rome burned in 64 CE. Nero blamed the Christians and began having them slaughtered. Eusebius wrote in the 4th century that Paul was beheaded by Nero sometime after 64 CE. It seems more likely to me that Paul was anticipating his imminent death at the hands of Nero, not something that happened 6 or 7 years prior.

As a result, I don&#39;t consider that you have made your point that Paul considered it a symbolic death in Jerusalem. That doesn&#39;t mean you are wrong, of course, it just means that you haven&#39;t convinced me.

I still believe that the anointed must during the last days literally die. I believe the problem is that 1 Cor. 15:51 has been mistakenly interpreted.

Molly

[littleone]

Hi Molly,

Regardless of how Paul was put to death, either symbolic or not, he still does mention that he "ran the course to the finish", and that the "crown of righteousness" was reserved for him in the heavens. (2Timothy 4:8) He wrote this while still alive... in the flesh. Therefore it was indeed manifest from heaven that he himself was "sealed"... though still alive in the flesh.

Did he say that he "was going" to be poored out like a drink offering? No, rather he said he already was. He did say that his "release" was imminent... pointing towards the future. But the "pooring out like a drink offering" was something he already experienced, and perhaps was in the process of experiencing.

The scriptures themselves do not talk about his physical death... we only have secular history to look at to determine when and how he died. And even with such information, it is arguable how he really died in the flesh. Did he indeed die in Rome by the hand of Nero? Some claim he did, but others refute this claim. We could argue and argue for days concerning his physical death, but neither one of us would really be able to prove our point with facts.

Nevertheless, what was the turning point that caused him to be bound and handed over for his death in the first place? Was it not what happened in Jerusalem?

Paul had a choice to make. He could have went to Jerusalem and faced what he did, or he could have chosen not to go. On his way there, the Holy spirit made manifest what would happen to him if he went there, through other disciples and Agabus the prophet. However, what did Paul himself say?

“What are YOU doing by weeping and making me weak at heart? Rest assured, I am ready not only to be bound but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus.” - Acts 21:13

The point is that one of the anointed can be "sealed" while still alive in the flesh. You mention that we have misinterpreted what was said in 1Cor 15:51... may I ask what is misinterpreted? I&#39;m not arguing with you here... just interested is all. Thx

[Molly]

Hi Molly,

Regardless of how Paul was put to death, either symbolic or not, he still does mention that he "ran the course to the finish", and that the "crown of righteousness" was reserved for him in the heavens. (2Timothy 4:8) He wrote this while still alive... in the flesh. Therefore it was indeed manifest from heaven that he himself was "sealed"... though still alive in the flesh.

Did he say that he "was going" to be poored out like a drink offering? No, rather he said he already was. He did say that his "release" was imminent... pointing towards the future. But the "pooring out like a drink offering" was something he already experienced, and perhaps was in the process of experiencing.

The scriptures themselves do not talk about his physical death... we only have secular history to look at to determine when and how he died. And even with such information, it is arguable how he really died in the flesh. Did he indeed die in Rome by the hand of Nero? Some claim he did, but others refute this claim. We could argue and argue for days concerning his physical death, but neither one of us would really be able to prove our point with facts.

Nevertheless, what was the turning point that caused him to be bound and handed over for his death in the first place? Was it not what happened in Jerusalem?

Paul had a choice to make. He could have went to Jerusalem and faced what he did, or he could have chosen not to go. On his way there, the Holy spirit made manifest what would happen to him if he went there, through other disciples and Agabus the prophet. However, what did Paul himself say?

"What are YOU doing by weeping and making me weak at heart? Rest assured, I am ready not only to be bound but also to die at Jerusalem for the name of the Lord Jesus." - Acts 21:13

The point is that one of the anointed can be "sealed" while still alive in the flesh. You mention that we have misinterpreted what was said in 1Cor 15:51... may I ask what is misinterpreted? I&#39;m not arguing with you here... just interested is all. Thx[/b]


Littleone-

Paul says at 2 Tim. 4:6,7,8: "For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the due time for my releasing is imminent. I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation." As far as I am concerned this means not that he was already sealed, but that the end was so close and that after all he had been through in his ministry, he wasn&#39;t about to prove unfaithful now. He had great determination as his end drew near, but he still had to die faithful to gain the crown that was reserved for him.

That is how I see it. If you see it otherwise, that is your privelege.

Molly

[littleone]

Littleone-

Paul says at 2 Tim. 4:6,7,8: "For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the due time for my releasing is imminent. I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation." As far as I am concerned this means not that he was already sealed, but that the end was so close and that after all he had been through in his ministry, he wasn&#39;t about to prove unfaithful now. He had great determination as his end drew near, but he still had to die faithful to gain the crown that was reserved for him.

That is how I see it. If you see it otherwise, that is your privelege.

Molly[/b]I understand that you are saying that in 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul is refering to his imminent release, this also includes his imminent "sealing", which you contend was not going to happen until his death in the flesh.

I also understand that you believe that ALL the anointed must be "killed" or "slaughtered" according to the flesh before they can be sealed. However, this still does beg for an explanation of Paul&#39;s words in 1Cor 15:51-56. This, if not for my sake, but for the other readers of this thread, I ask you again to kindly point out where we are misinterpreting this scripture.

If all anointed, including the earliest anointed, down to this day had needed to be "killed" or "slaughtered" according to the flesh to be "sealed", then do you not also agree that CT Russell, and all those who were with him in that day that died of "old age", or other natural causes were neither sealed, nor could attain to the crown of righteousness for their lack of being sealed?

Also, can we use this as a proof positive sign for those who make the claim to be annointed as being unfaithful? In other words, if one who claims to be anointed dies of a natural death... does this give us a positive proof that he indeed was unfaithful? Because neither in this case can it be argued that such one were "killed" or "slaughtered".... they simply expired.

Or are you only referring to those spoken about in Revelation as "being slaughtered", as only those anointed on earth at that future time that will have to be killed or slaughtered in the flesh?

[Molly]

<div class='quotemain'>Littleone-

Paul says at 2 Tim. 4:6,7,8: "For I am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the due time for my releasing is imminent. I have fought the fine fight, I have run the course to the finish, I have observed the faith. From this time on there is reserved for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, will give as a reward in that day, yet not only to me, but also to all those who have loved his manifestation." As far as I am concerned this means not that he was already sealed, but that the end was so close and that after all he had been through in his ministry, he wasn&#39;t about to prove unfaithful now. He had great determination as his end drew near, but he still had to die faithful to gain the crown that was reserved for him.

That is how I see it. If you see it otherwise, that is your privelege.

Molly[/b]I understand that you are saying that in 2Timothy 4:6-8 Paul is refering to his imminent release, this also includes his imminent "sealing", which you contend was not going to happen until his death in the flesh.

I also understand that you believe that ALL the anointed must be "killed" or "slaughtered" according to the flesh before they can be sealed. However, this still does beg for an explanation of Paul&#39;s words in 1Cor 15:51-56. This, if not for my sake, but for the other readers of this thread, I ask you again to kindly point out where we are misinterpreting this scripture.

If all anointed, including the earliest anointed, down to this day had needed to be "killed" or "slaughtered" according to the flesh to be "sealed", then do you not also agree that CT Russell, and all those who were with him in that day that died of "old age", or other natural causes were neither sealed, nor could attain to the crown of righteousness for their lack of being sealed?

Also, can we use this as a proof positive sign for those who make the claim to be annointed as being unfaithful? In other words, if one who claims to be anointed dies of a natural death... does this give us a positive proof that he indeed was unfaithful? Because neither in this case can it be argued that such one were "killed" or "slaughtered".... they simply expired.

Or are you only referring to those spoken about in Revelation as "being slaughtered", as only those anointed on earth at that future time that will have to be killed or slaughtered in the flesh?
[/b][/quote]

I believe that all the anointed are sealed at death if they have remained faithful. I wrote in post #4 that "whil they have to die faithful, I&#39;m not sure that they are required to be tortured to death either. Perhaps their trials were on an emotional or spiritual level." Some times mental torment can be worse than physical pain.

As to the situation of Paul in Jerusalem, I didn&#39;t argue that the brothers didn&#39;t perhaps cause him some trial, but that the scripture you used to defend it wasn&#39;t appropriate. Paul underwent many faith testing trials that brought him near death. Whether this incident qualified is not for me to judge. I wasn&#39;t rejecting the incident, just just your scriptural proof.

As to 1 Cor 15: 51, Paul refers to the information as a sacred secret - that some faithful Christian would not die. Revelation had not yet been written, but it also tells us some faithful Christians will not die.

Molly

[Deborah]

Just wanted to point out that there are scriptures that point to the individual chosen as being sealed prior to Revelation chapter 7.
Also, in Revelations chapter 7, the COMPLETE number of 144,000 is reached, that&#39;s when the slaves as a group, can be marked in the forehead.

Some scriptures supporting individuals are sealed at the time of their anointing:


2 Corinthians 1:21,22 Paul reinforces anointing and sealing-

21Now he that establishes us with you in Christ, and has anointed us, [is] God,

22who also has sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.


Ephesians 4:30 example of the holy spirit working with someone, that it is an active force within anointed-

30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with which ye have been sealed for [the] day of redemption.

Similiar-Ephesians 1:13-

13 in whom *ye* also [have trusted], having heard the word of the truth, the glad tidings of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, ye have been SEALED with the Holy Spirit of promise,

With Christian Love, Deborah

[NEW HEART]

Nambo, Stayawake and Billy-

I am in agreement that the anointed must suffer a literal death. Otherwise, how would their corpses lie on the broad way for 3 and 1/2 days until Jehovah breathes life back into them (Rev. 11: 8,9). This is to be a miraculous regeneration of stupendous proportions resulting in great fear on those beholding it. Imagine 7,000 persons regaining life! If they never actually died, who would be impressed.

In Rev. 17: 14 the ones who do battle alongside the Lamb are referred to as "those called and chosen and faithful" - three distinct aspects of their perosnalities. First they are called as all the sheep are (John 6: 44), then they are chosen (Matt. 22: 14) and finally they are FAITHFUL, which is the whole point of their deaths.

Molly[/b]

The words in Revelation 17:4 are so true. Those who know that they are the ones who will be doing battle right along side of Jesus, have already went through the three stages you described above when you said...you said it exactly right I might add, how timely.you said,
"In Rev. 17: 14 the ones who do battle alongside and the Lamb are referred to as "those called and chosen and faithful " - three distinct aspects of their personalities. First they are called as all the sheep are (John 6: 44), then they are chosen (Matt. 22: 14) and finally they are (FAITHFUL), which is the whole point of their deaths."

Something really amazing would have bear witness and testimony to them of this, that they would indeed know that they will be at war with satan right alongside Jesus, "Faithful and True". Don&#39;t you think they would be told of these things right before Jesus is about to act, in order to be prepared for battle?

They will hear the Father tell them personally,

"NOT ONLY SHALL YOU BE CALLED FAITHFUL, BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED "FAITHFUL AND TRUTH"

Faithful and Truth is their Fathers name written on their foreheads, sealed with his name, testimony for them to know that they "ARE His children.



Isaiah 65:13-17

13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and CALL HIS SERVANTS BY ANOTHER NAME:

16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of Truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of Truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 25:1

1. O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are ("FAITHFULNESS AND TRUTH.")


"I tell you," Jesus said, "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains only a single grain, but if it dies, it yields a rich harvest." Until a grain of wheat flows with the created spirit of the universe and turns its will and life over to a power much greater than itself…until then it remains only a single grain of wheat.

I have already died a spiritual fleshly death, and handed over my entire will and power, my whole mind, my whole strength , and my whole spirit to the Father. He gives me all the everlasting strength, and comfort I will ever need. When you oppose the devil over and over enough times, in the same way that Jesus did during his final tests before his death, the devil flees from you, and then remember what happened? The Father sent an angel to minister to him, likewise he does to those who will soon battle with the lamb, they are dead to the world, no part of it at all, already living on God&#39;s Holy mountain, never looking back at the things down in the valley.


In love , and peace

New Heart

[Utuna]

Dear littleone, you said in post #11:
We see from this scripture that not all of the anointed are to fall "asleep [in death]", before they put on immortality, or the "heavenly body". So how does this collaberate with the scriptures in Revelation that mention that all the anointed are to be killed?and


So this is one example of how one of the anointed in the scriptures was killed, yet still alive according to the flesh. Therefore, we can say that all the anointed have to die in a manner according to the sufferings of Jesus Christ, to receive their "sealing". However, the scriptures give us ample evidence that not all must die and fall asleep [in physical death].Anointed members must die before going to heaven. Flesh can't inherit God's kingdom. Nevertheless, when it is said that some won't fall asleep in death, it means that they won't remain in Hades at all, no time duration implied at all, they'll be changed "in the twinkling of an eye". They'll die and be resurrected at once. It's not just a matter of swapping "clothes" while still being alive. Anointed ones must die but some won't fall asleep in death.

I haven't read it down to the bottom but that thread is great!

---------------------------------------------
"Le sectarisme des jugements pauvres lui tenait quelquefois lieu de volonté" - Hervé Bazin
"J'ai pétri de la boue et j'en ai fait de l'or" - Charles Baudelaire
"S'il m'a été donné de voir un peu plus loin que les autres, c'est que je me tenais sur les épaules de géants" - Isaac Newton

[truthseeker]

The words in Revelation 17:4 are so true. Those who know that they are the ones who will be doing battle right along side of Jesus, have already went through the three stages you described above when you said...you said it exactly right I might add, how timely.you said,
"In Rev. 17: 14 the ones who do battle alongside and the Lamb are referred to as "those called and chosen and faithful " - three distinct aspects of their personalities. First they are called as all the sheep are (John 6: 44), then they are chosen (Matt. 22: 14) and finally they are (FAITHFUL), which is the whole point of their deaths."

Something really amazing would have bear witness and testimony to them of this, that they would indeed know that they will be at war with satan right alongside Jesus, "Faithful and True". Don't you think they would be told of these things right before Jesus is about to act, in order to be prepared for battle?

They will hear the Father tell them personally,

"NOT ONLY SHALL YOU BE CALLED FAITHFUL, BUT YOU SHALL BE CALLED "FAITHFUL AND TRUTH"

Faithful and Truth is their Fathers name written on their foreheads, sealed with his name, testimony for them to know that they "ARE His children.



Isaiah 65:13-17

13 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed:

14 Behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit.

15 And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and CALL HIS SERVANTS BY ANOTHER NAME:

16 That he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of Truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of Truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes.

17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.

Isaiah 25:1

1. O Lord, thou art my God; I will exalt thee, I will praise thy name; for thou hast done wonderful things; thy counsels of old are ("FAITHFULNESS AND TRUTH.")


"I tell you," Jesus said, "Unless a grain of wheat falls into the ground and dies, it remains only a single grain, but if it dies, it yields a rich harvest." Until a grain of wheat flows with the created spirit of the universe and turns its will and life over to a power much greater than itself…until then it remains only a single grain of wheat.

I have already died a spiritual fleshly death, and handed over my entire will and power, my whole mind, my whole strength , and my whole spirit to the Father. He gives me all the everlasting strength, and comfort I will ever need. When you oppose the devil over and over enough times, in the same way that Jesus did during his final tests before his death, the devil flees from you, and then remember what happened? The Father sent an angel to minister to him, likewise he does to those who will soon battle with the lamb, they are dead to the world, no part of it at all, already living on God's Holy mountain, never looking back at the things down in the valley.


In love , and peace

New Heart

Excellent post New Hart I enjoyed the depth: you have a good grasp on the spirit with in your self backed by scripture.
It will be interesting how Jesus statement of how the first will be last and the last first will be fully understood.