Are we saved by works or faith?

Carl

Carl

Well-known member
When I was still active I felt incredible pressure to attend meetings and put in field service hours. It made me very uncomfortable to the point of anxiety/depression. It was as if a weight was lifted once I left, and the anxiety/depression was cut 90%. The problem I faced next was how would I teach the Truth? The corporate bean counting seemed odd to me. After all, Jehovah knows our works, so why does it matter who else knows? This never sat well with me, especially the way I was encouraged to game the system by adding 15 minutes of field service time for each reference I made about the Bible informally. It seems so mechanical, and wrong... almost like the spirit of Satan when he tricked David to perform a census.

Something else to consider is the question of who Jesus was referring to in his parables (wheat, virgins, talents...)? Was he only referring to the anointed? Are the "other sheep" under the same orders? There seems to be contradictions, with one scripture saying we're saved by faith, and another saying by works. IMHO it seems the anointed are supposed to gather more disciples, while the non-anointed are saved by their faith. Am I wrong, and if so... please show me with sound scriptural evidence and not personal, WT inculcated conjecture.

Thanks for anyone who contributes.

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Galatians 5:19-26 "19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires. 25 If we are living by spirit, let us also go on walking orderly by spirit. 26 Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another."

Ephesians 2:8​

By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift.

Luke 7:50​

But he said to the woman: “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 8:50​

On hearing this, Jesus answered him: “Have no fear, only have faith, and she will be saved.”

Acts 15:11​

On the contrary, we have faith that we are saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way that they are.”

Romans 10:9​

For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.

James 2:14​

Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

*This scripture seems to indicate we also need works, which conflicts with the other scriptures which do not say we need works. Hence my request for Robert to clear up this question. Is my salvation based on my field service hours or my faith... how many Jehovah's Witnesses I bring in or how many people I teach the Truth to? I certainly don't sit on my couch and not tell people about the Kingdom... so am I doing enough? My conscience is clear, and I have no worries that I'm not doing enough, but when I was attending meetings I felt overwhelming anxiety and depression because I never felt good enough. Also, was Jesus telling his parables to the anointed and the other sheep, or just the anointed?

Galatians 2:16​

recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law.

Galatians 3:9​

So those who adhere to faith are being blessed together with Abraham, who had faith.

I really like this passage at James 2:18-26 "Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend. 24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Rahab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

IMHO, "works" is essentially how we live our lives. If we live by spirit and faith, and not the flesh... these are our works, and our living example leads others to the Truth. Abraham's "works" was his absolute faith in Jehovah... Rahab's "works" was when she sided with the Israelites and Jehovah. Unfortunately this topic gets used by self-righteous individuals (not anyone here) to exalt themselves by insinuating their works are better than others because of their volume of field service... or what not.
 
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Carl said:
When I was still active I felt incredible pressure to attend meetings and put in field service hours. It made me very uncomfortable to the point of anxiety/depression. It was as if a weight was lifted once I left, and the anxiety/depression was cut 90%. The problem I faced next was how would I teach the Truth? The corporate bean counting seemed odd to me. After all, Jehovah knows our works, so why does it matter who else knows? This never sat well with me, especially the way I was encouraged to game the system by adding 15 minutes of field service time for each reference I made about the Bible informally. It seems so mechanical, and wrong... almost like the spirit of Satan when he tricked David to perform a census.

IMHO, "works" is essentially how we live our lives. If we live by spirit and faith, and not the flesh... these are our works, and our living example leads others to the Truth. Abraham's "works" was his absolute faith in Jehovah... Rahab's "works" was when she sided with the Israelites and Jehovah. Unfortunately this topic gets used by self-righteous individuals (not anyone here) to exalt themselves by insinuating their works are better than others because of their volume of field service... or what not.

Something else to consider is the question of who Jesus was referring to in his parables (wheat, virgins, talents...)? Was he only referring to the anointed? Are the "other sheep" under the same orders? There seems to be contradictions, with one scripture saying we're saved by faith, and another saying by works. IMHO it seems the anointed are supposed to gather more disciples, while the non-anointed are saved by their faith. Am I wrong, and if so... please show me with sound scriptural evidence and not personal, WT inculcated conjecture.

Thanks for anyone who contributes.

​

Galatians 5:19-26 "19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires. 25 If we are living by spirit, let us also go on walking orderly by spirit. 26 Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another."


Ephesians 2:8​

By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift.

Luke 7:50​

But he said to the woman: “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 8:50​

On hearing this, Jesus answered him: “Have no fear, only have faith, and she will be saved.”

Acts 15:11​

On the contrary, we have faith that we are saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way that they are.”

Romans 10:9​

For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.

James 2:14​

Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

*This scripture seems to indicate we also need works, which conflicts with the other scriptures which do not say we need works. Hence my request for Robert to clear up this question. Is my salvation based on my field service hours or my faith... how many Jehovah's Witnesses I bring in or how many people I teach the Truth to? I certainly don't sit on my couch and not tell people about the Kingdom... so am I doing enough? My conscience is clear, and I have no worries that I'm not doing enough, but when I was attending meetings I felt overwhelming anxiety and depression because I never felt good enough. Also, was Jesus telling his parables to the anointed and the other sheep, or just the anointed?

Galatians 2:16​

recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law.

Galatians 3:9​

So those who adhere to faith are being blessed together with Abraham, who had faith.

I really like this passage at James 2:18-26 "Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend. 24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Rahab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."
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In my book it's.

Love > faith > works > knowledge

Doing the works of Abraham is better than knowledge without corresponding action and faith is more important than hollow works with no faith behind them that said faith without works is dead finally Paul said if he had the faith to move mountains but did not have love he is nothing.

Faithful works do have value that shouldn't be minimized "storing up treasures in heaven" etc but it's the application of the ransom not any individuals merits that secures one's salvation. Jehovah cares more about the secret person of the heart than what numbers one fills out on a paper.
 
I've been wondering this as well. I think it's the point that faith without works is dead. We have to show our faith in our actions, otherwise do we really have faith?
Works is also quite broad, it can mean what one does in their life, what they accomplish, to be successful in what they are doing.
By showing love, part of that is sharing truth with others. I always think of the scripture "Do not withhold good from those to whom you should give it if it is within your power to help" - Pr 3:27. Doing all you can within your power to do good, the best you can do in your circumstance.
 
Carl said:
I agree 100%! Love is the linchpin. There are a lot of people who have tons of field service hours, but no love... and others who know the Bible inside and out, but show very little love. Jesus set the example for all to follow... he personified love.
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I knew a Brother who knew a Bible Study that had a photographic memory. You could ask him to quote any scripture in the Bible and he could. It was amusing to see the Study beat people over the head with the Bible when they esposed a view that wasn't Biblical. He could slay anyone over topics like the Trinity or the immortal soul doctrine. The guy was incredible with the Bible but he never progressed. He just didn't have it in him, in spite of knowing the Bible like the back of his hand, He was only ever interested in using the Bible as a weapon. Strange stuff...
 
kirmmy said:
I knew a Brother who knew a Bible Study that had a photographic memory. You could ask him to quote any scripture in the Bible and he could. It was amusing to see the Study beat people over the head with the Bible when they esposed a view that wasn't Biblical. He could slay anyone over topics like the Trinity or the immortal soul doctrine. The guy was incredible with the Bible but he never progressed. He just didn't have it in him, in spite of knowing the Bible like the back of his hand, He was only ever interested in using the Bible as a weapon. Strange stuff...
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What a terrible waste of a gift.
 
Carl said:
Was he only referring to the anointed? Are the "other sheep" under the same orders? There seems to be contradictions, with one scripture saying we're saved by faith, and another saying by works.
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When I was a study one of the questions I had was "are all JW's apostles"? My observation was that JW's are taught to follow exactly in the footsteps of Jesus. Thing is, Jesus was teaching his apostles, who in turn wrote to the rest of the anointed.

Really, the whole question about works is about conscience. Is it possible to have love and a defiled conscience at the same time? Works that produce fruit is the goal, isn't that right? If I am to stand before Jesus, then my love, faith, works and the fruit that it has produced will need to be manifest. I will not be able to stand if any of this is lacking in my heart, and the test for me to know if I can stand, it is my conscience. In the course of my works if those works include teaching, I will want to be sure that I have accurate knowledge of the things taught, or my conscience would be severely lacking.

I think @The God Pill has it right prioritizing this way "Love > faith > works > knowledge". To this I would say that a clean conscience sits on top like a numerator over this denominator.

Is conducting a bible study the same as teaching? Given the milk toast in some of the WT publications one may be able to argue otherwise, but the line is pretty clear to me that presenting the truth is teaching.

James 3:1,
Heb 5:12,
2Tim 2:2, 4:1-5,
 
Carl said:
This is works IMHO...

I remember going out in FS with an elder who I believe was/is leading a double life. His method of witnessing was so cold and corporate... his heart wasn't in it. My works as of late are witnessing to my sons and ex-wife whenever I can without pushing them away.
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Plus in the organization there was little value in helping brothers and sisters who may need the assistance, but you can’t count the time if they are already baptized. Truly our first obligation is to help our family, fleshly family and spiritual family. That counts with Jehovah. And, what I often saw was that providing practical assistance to the “needy” was encouraged but only as a side issue. The reality is that people often don’t care how much you know (about the bible) if they know you don’t really care about them. So, we have to use both our concern for a person’s spirituality together with helping them in a practical way if they need the help and if we are in a position to provide it. It really comes down to how can we provide an accounting to Jehovah, just like the parable of the slaves with the minas. Are we increasing the master’s interests?

And, another issue that is often overlooked is how often we are reminded the value of searching for lost sheep. Jehovah looks for the good in us and he actively looks for his lost sheep. We can imitate him in that regard as well.
 
LifeLearning said:
When I was a study one of the questions I had was "are all JW's apostles"? My observation was that JW's are taught to follow exactly in the footsteps of Jesus. Thing is, Jesus was teaching his apostles, who in turn wrote to the rest of the anointed.
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Are both groups given the same assignment?
 
Asadour said:
@Carl
I think it’s probably both - you cannot go around committing acts of unrighteousness.

And telling others about the hope you have in Jesus is a requirement- one that i took very seriously and i carried it out as fully as possible.

But faith is more important, by far. IMO.
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I guess I meant, do both have the assignment to make anointed disciples? We know the righteous inherit either Heaven or Earth... some scriptures say faith makes us righteous, while others say faith and works does. It's not as clear as some think. I believe our works are a byproduct of our faith, but there are some who lack faith, and believe their works will be the path to righteousness (Jesus mentioned this at Matthew 22:7). I was taught we don't earn our way to Heaven or Paradise, but it sure seems like the WT believes otherwise. IMHO the pressure to "work" by the WT is a stumbling block to many. Who was Jesus talking to in his parables, and who were the apostles writing to in their letters?
 
Paul was the apostle to the nations his letters besides Hebrews largely to gentiles Peter approved his letters as scripture in his own letter but acknowledged some twist them to their own destruction as the rest of scripture (most gnostics loved using/twisting Paul's letters and modified versions of Luke and rejected most of the rest of the Bible), James Jesus half brother the leader of the Jerusalem congregation wrote faith without works is dead (James was not a judaizer but some of the the "I belong to so and so's" that affiliated themselves with him were the prejudiced fellows that intimidated Peter) James letter is scripture but some gentile christians in the first few centuries and hypergrace protestants were critical Martin Luther treated it as one of several books of "lesser authority" in the new testament a "strawy epistle" as it wasn't faith alone, Eusbesius in church history written the same year as Nicea places James as one of seven canon new testament books in the disputed (neither rejected or canon yet category Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, James, Jude and Revelation.) category in his time.

Christianity for much of history struggled with the risk of a split between the "I belong to Paul's and James's" with Peter in the middle.
 
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The God Pill said:
Paul was the apostle to the nations his letters besides Hebrews largely to gentiles Peter approved his letters as scripture in his own letter but acknowledged some twist them to their own destruction as the rest of scripture (most gnostics loved using/twisting Paul's letters and modified versions of Luke and rejected most of the rest of the Bible), James Jesus half brother the leader of the Jerusalem congregation wrote faith without works is dead (James was not a judaizer but some of the the "I belong to so and so's" that affiliated themselves with him were the prejudiced fellows that intimidated Peter) James letter is scripture but some gentile christians in the first few centuries and hypergrace protestants were critical Martin Luther treated it as one of several books of "lesser authority" in the new testament a "strawy epistle" as it wasn't faith alone, Eusbesius in church history written the same year as Nicea places James as one of seven canon new testament books in the disputed (neither rejected or canon yet category Hebrews, 2 Peter, 2 John, 3 John, James, Jude and Revelation.) category in his time.

Christianity for much of history risked a split between the "I belong to Paul's and James's" with Peter in the middle.
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I am personally blessed by the Internet; I have the complete works of Josephus on drive, incredible...not that I read it too much...hee hee..but wow all this knowledge..I watched a YouTube presentation the other day of early Christian ideology was of the thought that it was God the Father that was nailed to a tree! And you know God Pill I thought yes! and they bloomin would have done too! Truth unshackles the nonsense doesn't it?
 
MickHewitt said:
I am personally blessed by the Internet; I have the complete works of Josephus on drive, incredible...not that I read it too much...hee hee..but wow all this knowledge..I watched a YouTube presentation the other day of early Christian ideology was of the thought that it was God the Father that was nailed to a tree! And you know God Pill I thought yes! and they bloomin would have done too! Truth unshackles the nonsense doesn't it?
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Indeed they would have if they could, God was just a cause for ethnic and individual pride to them and their positions Jehovah was a means not an end to them and in a sense they tried to kill him by proxy (closest possible action to it) Yes truth unshackles🙂👍
 
If you look at the account in James Ch.2 & Romans Ch.4 they'll seem like contradictions at first glance. However, they both include the account of Abraham & Isaac. If you read in-between the lines of the situation, faith & works need each other to function properly. In my honest opinion you have to consider your conscience (one without external manipulation from other people). Like it is written:
(1 Peter 3:16) 16 Maintain a good conscience, so that in whatever way you are spoken against, those who speak against you may be put to shame because of your good conduct as followers of Christ.
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Carl said:
I guess I meant, do both have the assignment to make anointed disciples? We know the righteous inherit either Heaven or Earth... some scriptures say faith makes us righteous, while others say faith and works does. It's not as clear as some think. I believe our works are a byproduct of our faith, but there are some who lack faith, and believe their works will be the path to righteousness (Jesus mentioned this at Matthew 22:7). I was taught we don't earn our way to Heaven or Paradise, but it sure seems like the WT believes otherwise. IMHO the pressure to "work" by the WT is a stumbling block to many. Who was Jesus talking to in his parables, and who were the apostles writing to in their letters?
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I always thought faith and works are simply different sides of the same coin. If you have true faith, there will be works. If you displaying works of godly devotion then there is true faith. A lot of the problems have to due with counterfeit faith and works. If you spot counterfeit faith then there won't be godly works and vise versa. They can't exist apart.
 
PJ54 said:
If you look at the account in James Ch.2 & Romans Ch.4 they'll seem like contradictions at first glance. However, they both include the account of Abraham & Isaac. If you read in-between the lines of the situation faith & works need each other to function properly. In my honest opinion you have to consider your conscience (one without external manipulation from other people). Like it is written:
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Very much so. Romans 2 delves into conscience a bit in talking about what I call the inner law. In ancient China they called a state of inner law where morality was as straightforward without thought as breathing the way.

11 For there is no partiality with God.13 For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For whenever people of the nations that do not have law do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them and, between their own thoughts, they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will be in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.

I absolutely agree on a previous poster that an un-seared conscience should be the numerator of the equation.

A bit of a brief tangent below that goes off thread subject but.

Christian while an appropriate term for use likely originated as a dismissive label from opposers in Antioch that was gradually appropriated as a badge of honor originally the early Christians called their faith The Way and/or the truth, the way of truth etc. The NWT and even kingdom interlinear sort of inserts that christian was by divine providence but I checked a half dozen translations and bible hubs Greek interlinear and that notions absent from them.

9:1 But Saul, still breathing threat and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues in Damascus, in order that he might bring bound to Jerusalem any whom he found who belonged to The Way, both men and women.

The two ways/roads as a motif might have roots tracing back before Moses if the testament of Amram (Moses father) is authentic if so the way as a term emphasizes the historical continuity of true Christianity from true biblical Judaism that it's a progression of the same religion/faith as Abraham.
 
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