The appointed times of the nations

Z

Zane

Guest
With world war one the Ottoman Turks (the last of the nations to trample Jerusalem) were driven back north to their homeland where they remain to this today. (Joel 2:20)

Does that not match-up with Luke 21:24?
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
Just to give you a quick overview. Jerusalem is a symbol of Christianity. That is because Jesus died in Jerusalem and Christianity began in Jerusalem on Pentecost 33 CE. And the apostles were headquartered in Jerusalem. And, of course, the Jewish temple was in Jerusalem which Christ's congregation replaced as the spiritual temple. Christianity will come to an end and the nations will prevail for an appointed time.
 
Z

Zane

Guest
The video ties the disciples' question about the future destruction of Jerusalem together with Jesus' statement that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled" (Lu 21:24)

But Jesus doesn't say that that is when the trampling will began.

According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek word "eimi", translated as "will be", means "I exist, I am" and has the usage of "remain, is, it is, you are, stay, staying". Those are words of continuance, not of a beginning. Therefore the true meaning of Luke 21:24 is:

"Jerusalem (remains, stays, will continue to be) trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

That tells me that Jesus was not telling them that the trampling of Jerusalem would begin in 70 C.E., but that the ongoing trampling will continue on past that date.

I did a search on your site for "trampled" but found not articles discussing that topic.

You said "The literal city of Jerusalem does not factor into it at all", but the disciples were asking about the literal city of Jerusalem. (Lu 21:7)

You say "Jerusalem is a symbol of Christianity", but you do not provide scriptures to back up that statement.

I'm sure you have the scriptures, but I need to read them myself to believe.

I looked through the first few articles in the search results for "Jerusalem" but I saw no referenced scriptures that identify Jerusalem as a symbol for Christianity.

If you could provide a link to articles that cover those topics, that would be helpful.

Thank you
 

White Stone

Well-known member
The video ties the disciples' question about the future destruction of Jerusalem together with Jesus' statement that "Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled" (Lu 21:24)

But Jesus doesn't say that that is when the trampling will began.

According to Strong's Concordance, the Greek word "eimi", translated as "will be", means "I exist, I am" and has the usage of "remain, is, it is, you are, stay, staying". Those are words of continuance, not of a beginning. Therefore the true meaning of Luke 21:24 is:

"Jerusalem (remains, stays, will continue to be) trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled."

That tells me that Jesus was not telling them that the trampling of Jerusalem would begin in 70 C.E., but that the ongoing trampling will continue on past that date.

I did a search on your site for "trampled" but found not articles discussing that topic.

You said "The literal city of Jerusalem does not factor into it at all", but the disciples were asking about the literal city of Jerusalem. (Lu 21:7)

You say "Jerusalem is a symbol of Christianity", but you do not provide scriptures to back up that statement.

I'm sure you have the scriptures, but I need to read them myself to believe.

I looked through the first few articles in the search results for "Jerusalem" but I saw no referenced scriptures that identify Jerusalem as a symbol for Christianity.

If you could provide a link to articles that cover those topics, that would be helpful.

Thank you
The book of Revelation has a similar trampling of Jerusalem, which is also called the holy city.(Compare Matthew 4:5)
Revelation 11:1,2 “And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.”
And from within the book of Revelation, this holy city is the New Jerusalem, made up of the body of Christ.

Revelation 21:2 “I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Revelation 3:12The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”
Regarding the trampling of the Gentiles, it started when King Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the First Temple and its city, Jerusalem. As the throne of the Kings back then represented Jehovah’s throne, so when King Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the kingship, it fulfilled the trampling of the Nations.

1 Chronicles 29:23 “And Solʹo·mon sat on Jehovah’s throne as king in place of David his father, and he was successful, and all the Israelites were obedient to him.”​

The kingship will only be restored at the time when the legal heir is appointed as King, so also at that time, the appointed time of the Nations will end.

Ezekiel 21:26,27 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I will make it. And it will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.”
This trampling will be intensified at the time of the great tribulation, but will be ended by Jesus Christ as spoken of by prophet Daniel and the Lord Jesus himself.(Matthew 24:29-31)

Daniel 12:7 “Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”
Daniel 12:1 “During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.”
It is more likely that the prophecy will be fulfilled in spiritual understanding, like spiritual Jerusalem. But I’m open for a literal Jerusalem, now that there are plans of rebuilding the Temple in Israel.
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
You say "Jerusalem is a symbol of Christianity", but you do not provide scriptures to back up that statement.

I'm sure you have the scriptures, but I need to read them myself to believe.
I referenced Jesus being arrested and executed outside the walls of Jerusalem. I referenced Christianity beginning when the 120 were anointed in an upper room in Jerusalem. I referenced the apostles using Jerusalem as their headquarters. I referenced the temple being in Jerusalem, which every Christian should know was replaced by a spiritual temple. I do not see any reason why anyone who has ever read the Bible, even just the New Testament, would request to have specific proof scriptures to establish the significance of Jerusalem as the origin of Christianity. And then there are the Hebrew prophecies that speak of Jerusalem in connection with the return of Christ, which are too numerous to even cite.
 

Patricia

Well-known member
Zechariah 6:12-13 " And say to him,""This is what Jehovah of armies says: "Here is the man whose name is Sprout." He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah, and he is the one who will assume the majesty. He will sit down on his throne and rule, and he will also be a priest on his throne, and there will be a peaceable agreement between the two."
Sprout (Jesus) will build the next temple of Jehovah. Symbolic or literal @Zane ? No reply needed as I already know the answer just want to give a scripture to spur thought.
 

Truth_Seeker

Well-known member
"And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
Isaiah 2:2‭-‬4

"But in the latter days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of Jehovah’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem; and he will judge between many peoples, and will decide concerning strong nations afar off: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of Jehovah of hosts hath spoken it. For all the peoples walk every one in the name of his god; and we will walk in the name of Jehovah our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:1‭-‬5

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own. And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city."
Hebrews 11:13‭-‬16

"For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel."
Hebrews 12:18‭, ‬22‭-‬24

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:2‭-‬7
 
Z

Zane

Guest
The book of Revelation has a similar trampling of Jerusalem, which is also called the holy city.(Compare Matthew 4:5)
Revelation 11:1,2 “And a reed like a rod was given to me as he said: “Get up and measure the temple sanctuary of God and the altar and those worshipping in it. But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months.”
And from within the book of Revelation, this holy city is the New Jerusalem, made up of the body of Christ.

Revelation 21:2 “I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
Revelation 3:12The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name.”
Regarding the trampling of the Gentiles, it started when King Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the First Temple and its city, Jerusalem. As the throne of the Kings back then represented Jehovah’s throne, so when King Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the kingship, it fulfilled the trampling of the Nations.

1 Chronicles 29:23 “And Solʹo·mon sat on Jehovah’s throne as king in place of David his father, and he was successful, and all the Israelites were obedient to him.”​

The kingship will only be restored at the time when the legal heir is appointed as King, so also at that time, the appointed time of the Nations will end.

Ezekiel 21:26,27 “This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: ‘Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not remain the same. Raise up the low one, and bring low the high one. A ruin, a ruin, a ruin I will make it. And it will not belong to anyone until the one who has the legal right comes, and I will give it to him.”
This trampling will be intensified at the time of the great tribulation, but will be ended by Jesus Christ as spoken of by prophet Daniel and the Lord Jesus himself.(Matthew 24:29-31)

Daniel 12:7 “Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was up above the waters of the stream, as he raised his right hand and his left hand to the heavens and swore by the One who is alive forever: “It will be for an appointed time, appointed times, and half a time. As soon as the dashing to pieces of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things will come to their finish.”
Daniel 12:1 “During that time Miʹcha·el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of your people. And there will occur a time of distress such as has not occurred since there came to be a nation until that time. And during that time your people will escape, everyone who is found written down in the book.”
It is more likely that the prophecy will be fulfilled in spiritual understanding, like spiritual Jerusalem. But I’m open for a literal Jerusalem, now that there are plans of rebuilding the Temple in Israel.
Thank you for responding White Stone.

Regarding Jerusalem being a symbol for Christianity, those scriptures (Re 11:1, 2; 21:2; 3:21) do not say that Jerusalem represents Christianity. Those scriptures all refer to an earthly city, and none refer to a group of men.

Chapter 21 says that there will be a new heavens and a new earth and a new Jerusalem to replace "the former". Yes, the new city is described as being "prepared as a bride adorned for her husband", but then it goes on to call that new city "The tent of God" in which he will reside with mankind. (Ez 37:26-28)

So I see no comparison of Jerusalem to Christianity.



You said: "Regarding the trampling of the Gentiles, it started when King Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the First Temple and its city, Jerusalem."

I agree.



You said: "The kingship will only be restored at the time when the legal heir is appointed as King."

I agree, but starting at Joel 2:18 Jehovah describes all of the good things He will do for Jerusalem, before Armageddon. Her trampling ends, she becomes green again, rain, fruit trees, wine,... And it says that after that is when He returns to reside in Zion, and Jerusalem becomes Holy again.



Regarding the 2 and a half times, and 42 months, and all of that, I have not had time to really delve deep enough into it to get a proper understanding.
 
Z

Zane

Guest
I referenced Jesus being arrested and executed outside the walls of Jerusalem. I referenced Christianity beginning when the 120 were anointed in an upper room in Jerusalem. I referenced the apostles using Jerusalem as their headquarters. I referenced the temple being in Jerusalem, which every Christian should know was replaced by a spiritual temple. I do not see any reason why anyone who has ever read the Bible, even just the New Testament, would request to have specific proof scriptures to establish the significance of Jerusalem as the origin of Christianity. And then there are the Hebrew prophecies that speak of Jerusalem in connection with the return of Christ, which are too numerous to even cite.
I do not deny "the significance of Jerusalem".

I misunderstood. I thought that you were saying that when Jerusalem is mentioned in prophecy that it is referring to Christianity.

My bad. Sorry.
 
Z

Zane

Guest
There’s a search bar on the e-watchman site. It’s not that hard to use, even you can do it 😉
Yes. I even said; "I did a search on your site for "trampled" but found not articles discussing that topic."
And then I mentioned: "the search results for "Jerusalem"", so I have obviously used the search option.
:)
 
Z

Zane

Guest
I found this article. Perhaps, it might help!
Thanks Pj54
I looked through that article, but there was only one scripture that referenced "an appointed time of nations" (Ezr 30:3) but it was talking about when Babylon attacked Egypt at some point in history.
:)
 
Z

Zane

Guest
"And it shall come to pass in the latter days, that the mountain of Jehovah’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it. And many peoples shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem. And he will judge between the nations, and will decide concerning many peoples; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more."
Isaiah 2:2‭-‬4

"But in the latter days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of Jehovah’s house shall be established on the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and peoples shall flow unto it. And many nations shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of Jehovah, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths. For out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem; and he will judge between many peoples, and will decide concerning strong nations afar off: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning-hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more. But they shall sit every man under his vine and under his fig-tree; and none shall make them afraid: for the mouth of Jehovah of hosts hath spoken it. For all the peoples walk every one in the name of his god; and we will walk in the name of Jehovah our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:1‭-‬5

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things make it manifest that they are seeking after a country of their own. And if indeed they had been mindful of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. But now they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed of them, to be called their God; for he hath prepared for them a city."
Hebrews 11:13‭-‬16

"For ye are not come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest, but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel."
Hebrews 12:18‭, ‬22‭-‬24

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God: and he shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; and death shall be no more; neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more: the first things are passed away. And he that sitteth on the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he saith, Write: for these words are faithful and true. And he said unto me, They are come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit these things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son."
Revelation 21:2‭-‬7
Thanks for the scriptures Truth_Seeker.

"for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of Jehovah from Jerusalem"

"And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of the throne saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he shall dwell with them, and they shall be his peoples, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God."

Good stuff!
:)
 

Ireneo

Well-known member
Hello, I would like to add something to the interesting conversation that you have:)
when reading the prophecies you see that the ideas are always repeated... over and over again
but they all point to an end
for example in joel it is said that the holy spirit would be poured out in the last days
but pedro applies joel to his day and the outpouring of holy spirit
Why does he do it?
simply because it is a miniature application
there will be another future outpouring that will be the end because the context of joel and the lower plain of jehoshaphat demonstrate it
it happens like this with everything in the bible, the ideas are repeated over and over again
it is true that it can be taken that the times of the gentiles begin when nebuchadnezzar conquers jerusalem, ....but also when the romans trample it
Those are just shadows that point to an end
In Revelation and Daniel it is made clear that the actual trampling of Jerusalem begins at the end and lasts exactly 1260 days.
The temple of God is the anointed congregation of Christ, Peter makes it clear by saying that they are the temple of God and also Paul
in fact christ told the samaritan (who was worried about a place) that the time was coming when true worshipers would no longer worship god on the literal mountain of jerusalem so the literal city was just a symbol
these words of christ show that expecting literal jerusalem to be restored as evangelicals believe is wrong
God does not deal with two "Israel" there is only one who inherited all the promises and it is the congregation of Christ or "Israel of God"
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Hello, I would like to add something to the interesting conversation that you have:)
when reading the prophecies you see that the ideas are always repeated... over and over again
but they all point to an end
for example in joel it is said that the holy spirit would be poured out in the last days
but pedro applies joel to his day and the outpouring of holy spirit
Why does he do it?
simply because it is a miniature application
there will be another future outpouring that will be the end because the context of joel and the lower plain of jehoshaphat demonstrate it
it happens like this with everything in the bible, the ideas are repeated over and over again
it is true that it can be taken that the times of the gentiles begin when nebuchadnezzar conquers jerusalem, ....but also when the romans trample it
Those are just shadows that point to an end
In Revelation and Daniel it is made clear that the actual trampling of Jerusalem begins at the end and lasts exactly 1260 days.
The temple of God is the anointed congregation of Christ, Peter makes it clear by saying that they are the temple of God and also Paul
in fact christ told the samaritan (who was worried about a place) that the time was coming when true worshipers would no longer worship god on the literal mountain of jerusalem so the literal city was just a symbol
these words of christ show that expecting literal jerusalem to be restored as evangelicals believe is wrong
God does not deal with two "Israel" there is only one who inherited all the promises and it is the congregation of Christ or "Israel of God"
I love seeing Ireneo comment. You are so encouraging.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
With world war one the Ottoman Turks (the last of the nations to trample Jerusalem) were driven back north to their homeland where they remain to this today. (Joel 2:20)

Does that not match-up with Luke 21:24?
Hi Zane, I think your assumptions need to be examined. For example in Luke 21:24 it says: “And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”

Notice that Jesus did not say that Jerusalem will CONTINUE to be trampled on but that in the future it will be trampled. So, the trampling had not yet begun. If you are looking at scriptural proof, perhaps we can start there. Has the trampling begun and what is the proof? As Brother King has pointed out, Jesus’ followers gave no indication that they were in a period of trampling.
 
Top