Are we saved by works or faith?

LifeLearning

Well-known member
IMHO the pressure to "work" by the WT is a stumbling block to many. Who was Jesus talking to in his parables, and who were the apostles writing to in their letters?
The WT seems to measure work in one way: Door to door preaching work, by the number of hours in that service.

Jesus did more than go door to door. The scriptures are more clear about his work in the temple. It seems to me that in order to follow exactly as Jesus did JW's would need to go into the temple and preach the truth to those who do not know it. It would not be in the Kingdom Hall, because the people in there know the truth... What templet then? A temple of the jews? Or should we be knocking on the doors at Bethel?

There is no question that faith without works is dead. The question is "what works are acceptable to Jesus"?

What is the basis for measuring the works of every christian by the hours going door to door? Is it scriptural at all?
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Luke 10:1-2: “After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go. 2 Then he said to them: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”

Romans 10:15: “How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
 

Carl

Well-known member
What is the basis for measuring the works of every christian by the hours going door to door? Is it scriptural at all?
I never felt comfortable keeping track of my hours. It actually seemed wrong to me. Jehovah knows our efforts, and whether or not we game the WT accounting system. Some enjoy the door to door work, while others like myself do not. I loved informal witnessing, and had great conversations with people, but when I was at the door with another JW I felt watched and judged as to how I was witnessing. I will confess I feared rejection, and we all know how some react to a JW at the door.

Luke 10:1-2: “After these things the Lord designated 70 others and sent them out by twos ahead of him into every city and place where he himself was to go. 2 Then he said to them: “Yes, the harvest is great, but the workers are few. Therefore, beg the Master of the harvest to send out workers into his harvest.”

Romans 10:15: “How, in turn, will they preach unless they have been sent out? Just as it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who declare good news of good things!”
Two great scriptures to consider. In my case, as well as others here, it's kind of difficult to go door to door because we refuse to bring people into an organization that's soon to be destroyed. I try to work the Kingdom message into any conversation when it's relevant. I have to be balanced so I don't push people away. Case in point was last night... my son and I had an excellent conversation about creation and he's fully on board with being created, but he still thinks God doesn't care about us. He hasn't had that "a-ha" moment where he realized Jehovah's real. I keep telling him to wait, because I believe every human will have that moment before they must then choose to either take the MOTB or not. I said the farther your lifestyle is from the way Jehovah wants us to live, the more easily you'll choose the mark.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I never felt comfortable keeping track of my hours. It actually seemed wrong to me. Jehovah knows our efforts, and whether or not we game the WT accounting system. Some enjoy the door to door work, while others like myself do not. I loved informal witnessing, and had great conversations with people, but when I was at the door with another JW I felt watched and judged as to how I was witnessing. I will confess I feared rejection, and we all know how some react to a JW at the door.


Two great scriptures to consider. In my case, as well as others here, it's kind of difficult to go door to door because we refuse to bring people into an organization that's soon to be destroyed. I try to work the Kingdom message into any conversation when it's relevant. I have to be balanced so I don't push people away. Case in point was last night... my son and I had an excellent conversation about creation and he's fully on board with being created, but he still thinks God doesn't care about us. He hasn't had that "a-ha" moment where he realized Jehovah's real. I keep telling him to wait, because I believe every human will have that moment before they must then choose to either take the MOTB or not. I said the farther your lifestyle is from the way Jehovah wants us to live, the more easily you'll choose the mark.
I completely understand and agree. We “give” according to what we have to give.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
I keep telling him to wait, because I believe every human will have that moment before they must then choose to either take the MOTB or not. I said the farther your lifestyle is from the way Jehovah wants us to live, the more easily you'll choose the mark.
Spot on! It's as if the comforts of life are what will be a snare for many. I suppose by choosing God we may have to go back to our roots like our ancestors have in which the pleasures of life will have to be forgone in order to be faithful.
 

Carl

Well-known member
I suppose by choosing God we may have to go back to our roots like our ancestors have in which the pleasures of life will have to be forgone in order to be faithful.
I believe this’ll be the case. Jehovah will get us through, but we’ll probably have a very reduced lifestyle. The MOTB will be very tempting, so it’s best if we war game right now how we’re going to resist it. I plan for the worst, hope for the best. The world will be so shaken to the core that getting back to some semblance of our previous lifestyle will cause most to take it… and they’ll hate those who don’t, kind of how some vaxed hate the unvaxed. We’re seeing the beta test for the mark right now.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
he MOTB will be very tempting, so it’s best if we war game right now how we’re going to resist it.
Either that or it will scare the heck out of us. Your point here is valid and something I've never thought about. I tend to think of it more as an "take it or die" thing but you are most likely right. I actually hope you are right. It's easier to turn down a great temptation than to resist to the point of death. I'm sure though as we progress into the 8th kings reign it will become a life or death matter. That will be why Jah has to intervene and stop them.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
This could be one path Satan tries to get us to take his mark?

Very possible. It’s interesting that Trump said the vaccine was the biggest scientific advance since the Manhattan project. It is just coming out now that the radiation from that wasn’t properly mitigated and over 100 people who attended a nearby school in the years after that have developed a rare brain cancer. In fact one husband and wife couple both developed the same brain cancer.
 

Jordan Seager

Well-known member
I said the farther your lifestyle is from the way Jehovah wants us to live, the more easily you'll choose the mark.
That's exactly how I see it. Hopefully it's as easy as that. But knowing what the GT will be like, probably not. I personally think it'll be indistinguishable to see who accepts the mark and who doesn't. To be given a literal choice, a final test of faith for literally every soul upon this earth.
 

Carl

Well-known member
I personally think it'll be indistinguishable to see who accepts the mark and who doesn't.
I don't think the mark will be visible, but I do believe we'll be able to spiritually discern who does and doesn't take it... by observing their deeds.
To be given a literal choice, a final test of faith for literally every soul upon this earth.
I believe the temptation and peer pressure to accept the mark will be intense. Hunger, anxiety-depression, fear, greed... will cause the spiritually weak to accept it. Some will be early adopters, who will then pressure their family & friends to accept it... but later on they'll go from joyously encouraging others to accept it to angerly pushing it. I've thought a lot about this actually. Like what will make a loving family member or friend turn on someone who in the end refuses the mark? I think it will be a gradual feeling in them that culminates in intense hatred of someone they once loved; as Satan's way of thinking becomes more ingrained in them, driving out Jehovah's way of thinking. 3 and 1/2 years is a LONG time... which will allow for this change in people's disposition. Think about the shunning mentality that some seem to happily embrace. Is it that hard to see worldly people shunning those who refuse to participate in the NWO? Especially considering how much the 8th king's government will use propaganda to demonize them and blame religion, especially Christians, for all the wars leading up to the GT.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
I believe the temptation and peer pressure to accept the mark will be intense. Hunger, anxiety-depression, fear, greed... will cause the spiritually weak to accept it. Some will be early adopters, who will then pressure their family & friends to accept it... but later on they'll go from joyously encouraging others to accept it to angerly pushing it. I've thought a lot about this actually. Like what will make a loving family member or friend turn on someone who in the end refuses the mark? I think it will be a gradual feeling in them that culminates in intense hatred of someone they once loved; as Satan's way of thinking becomes more ingrained in them, driving out Jehovah's way of thinking. 3 and 1/2 years is a LONG time... which will allow for this change in people's disposition. Think about the shunning mentality that some seem to happily embrace. Is it that hard to see worldly people shunning those who refuse to participate in the NWO? Especially considering how much the 8th king's government will use propaganda to demonize them and blame religion, especially Christians, for all the wars leading up to the GT.
Excellent comment and observation. Indeed, not unlike the vaxx. This last two years have been eye-opening for me. It really has served to divide the people into two groups, mainly. If you're right, even more dividing will take place until Christ does his final sheep and goat dividing.

And that video you posted kind of confirms something I've been feeling for a while now. Trust no one but Jehovah God, Christ and the Brothers and Sisters who prove worthy of your trust. I knew guys like Stew Peters were sensationalizing and misleading on occasion and making a killing in the process. But now, seeing that they're pointing to UN promoted, new-age religious nonsense makes me really wary of them.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
I don't think the mark will be visible, but I do believe we'll be able to spiritually discern who does and doesn't take it... by observing their deeds.

I believe the temptation and peer pressure to accept the mark will be intense. Hunger, anxiety-depression, fear, greed... will cause the spiritually weak to accept it. Some will be early adopters, who will then pressure their family & friends to accept it... but later on they'll go from joyously encouraging others to accept it to angerly pushing it. I've thought a lot about this actually. Like what will make a loving family member or friend turn on someone who in the end refuses the mark? I think it will be a gradual feeling in them that culminates in intense hatred of someone they once loved; as Satan's way of thinking becomes more ingrained in them, driving out Jehovah's way of thinking. 3 and 1/2 years is a LONG time... which will allow for this change in people's disposition. Think about the shunning mentality that some seem to happily embrace. Is it that hard to see worldly people shunning those who refuse to participate in the NWO? Especially considering how much the 8th king's government will use propaganda to demonize them and blame religion, especially Christians, for all the wars leading up to the GT.
I think that the MOFTB could also take freewill away, altering the perception of people to the point they are no longer in themselves anymore. If you can hack the mind, you hack the soul.
 

Backtotrueworship

Active member
When I was still active I felt incredible pressure to attend meetings and put in field service hours. It made me very uncomfortable to the point of anxiety/depression. It was as if a weight was lifted once I left, and the anxiety/depression was cut 90%. The problem I faced next was how would I teach the Truth? The corporate bean counting seemed odd to me. After all, Jehovah knows our works, so why does it matter who else knows? This never sat well with me, especially the way I was encouraged to game the system by adding 15 minutes of field service time for each reference I made about the Bible informally. It seems so mechanical, and wrong... almost like the spirit of Satan when he tricked David to perform a census.

Something else to consider is the question of who Jesus was referring to in his parables (wheat, virgins, talents...)? Was he only referring to the anointed? Are the "other sheep" under the same orders? There seems to be contradictions, with one scripture saying we're saved by faith, and another saying by works. IMHO it seems the anointed are supposed to gather more disciples, while the non-anointed are saved by their faith. Am I wrong, and if so... please show me with sound scriptural evidence and not personal, WT inculcated conjecture.

Thanks for anyone who contributes.

Galatians 5:19-26 "19 Now the works of the flesh are plainly seen, and they are sexual immorality, uncleanness, brazen conduct, 20 idolatry, spiritism, hostility, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions, divisions, sects, 21 envy, drunkenness, wild parties, and things like these. I am forewarning you about these things, the same way I already warned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit God’s Kingdom. 22 On the other hand, the fruitage of the spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, 23 mildness, self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Moreover, those who belong to Christ Jesus have nailed to the stake the flesh together with its passions and desires. 25 If we are living by spirit, let us also go on walking orderly by spirit. 26 Let us not become egotistical, stirring up competition with one another, envying one another."

Ephesians 2:8

By this undeserved kindness you have been saved through faith, and this is not of your own doing; rather, it is God’s gift.

Luke 7:50

But he said to the woman: “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

Luke 8:50

On hearing this, Jesus answered him: “Have no fear, only have faith, and she will be saved.”

Acts 15:11

On the contrary, we have faith that we are saved through the undeserved kindness of the Lord Jesus in the same way that they are.”

Romans 10:9

For if you publicly declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and exercise faith in your heart that God raised him up from the dead, you will be saved.

James 2:14

Of what benefit is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but he does not have works? That faith cannot save him, can it?

*This scripture seems to indicate we also need works, which conflicts with the other scriptures which do not say we need works. Hence my request for Robert to clear up this question. Is my salvation based on my field service hours or my faith... how many Jehovah's Witnesses I bring in or how many people I teach the Truth to? I certainly don't sit on my couch and not tell people about the Kingdom... so am I doing enough? My conscience is clear, and I have no worries that I'm not doing enough, but when I was attending meetings I felt overwhelming anxiety and depression because I never felt good enough. Also, was Jesus telling his parables to the anointed and the other sheep, or just the anointed?

Galatians 2:16

recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law.

Galatians 3:9

So those who adhere to faith are being blessed together with Abraham, who had faith.

I really like this passage at James 2:18-26 "Nevertheless, someone will say: “You have faith, and I have works. Show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder. 20 But do you care to know, O empty man, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father declared righteous by works after he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that his faith was active along with his works and his faith was perfected by his works, 23 and the scripture was fulfilled that says: “Abraham put faith in Jehovah, and it was counted to him as righteousness,” and he came to be called Jehovah’s friend. 24 You see that a man is to be declared righteous by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same manner, was not Rahab the prostitute also declared righteous by works after she received the messengers hospitably and sent them out by another way? 26 Indeed, just as the body without spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead."

IMHO, "works" is essentially how we live our lives. If we live by spirit and faith, and not the flesh... these are our works, and our living example leads others to the Truth. Abraham's "works" was his absolute faith in Jehovah... Rahab's "works" was when she sided with the Israelites and Jehovah. Unfortunately this topic gets used by self-righteous individuals (not anyone here) to exalt themselves by insinuating their works are better than others because of their volume of field service... or what not.
Yes indeed , faith without works is dead, but the brothers use this as an excuse to cause guilt if you are not busy in the ministry and meetings and sorry to say climbing the corporate ladder. Really , what works are required of us...that we serve Jehovah whole souled..thus sharing our faith with all we meet , if we can muster the courage, and of course this we can do by prayer...and Jesus did send his disciples out to preach into each city, thus we have the example to imitate, preaching from door to door may not be possible and it is not the only way to preach face to face...market places and our own work places , shopping or filling with gas, anything we do, anywhere we are , if we can create a opportunity to witness then we are fulfilling our god given responsibility as Christians. Really when we look back on the "witness work " we did as JW , did we really do this? Maybe, we made a real effort in this but maybe we were like everyone else, preaching in assigned ways and times as directed by the organization , the Saturday and Sunday arrangements that most were involved in was very perfunctory, it was sometimes very useless use of time and more concern was with appearances of putting in time or being there , so that the elders would not call and try to encourage you ...LOL... with the goal of an hour requirement. As if the measure of time was important to Jehovah and Jesus .
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Excellent comment and observation. Indeed, not unlike the vaxx. This last two years have been eye-opening for me. It really has served to divide the people into two groups, mainly. If you're right, even more dividing will take place until Christ does his final sheep and goat dividing.

And that video you posted kind of confirms something I've been feeling for a while now. Trust no one but Jehovah God, Christ and the Brothers and Sisters who prove worthy of your trust. I knew guys like Stew Peters were sensationalizing and misleading on occasion and making a killing in the process. But now, seeing that they're pointing to UN promoted, new-age religious nonsense makes me really wary of them.
After watching the couple “unassigned vlog”, the husband pointed out that doing a search for the word “trust” in the NWT, it only appears 89 times. We are told to never “trust“ in other humans but only Jehovah and his son. The bible even warns us to not trust in ourselves.

Micah 7:5: “Do not put faith in your companion Or trust a close friend. Guard what you say to the one who lies in your embrace.”

Jeremiah 17:5: “This is what Jehovah says: “Cursed is the man who puts his trust in mere humans, Who relies on human power, And whose heart turns away from Jehovah.”


So, I think this is referring to “blind” trust, which I believe to be a component of worship. The same with “blind obedience”. Of course in practical matters we must trust everyone we deal with to some extent or we couldn’t function in life, but I found it interesting to see that the bible NEVER tell us to ”trust” another human. I am fascinated by this find.
 

Carl

Well-known member
So, I think this is referring to “blind” trust, which I believe to be a component of worship. The same with “blind obedience”. Of course in practical matters we must trust everyone we deal with to some extent or we couldn’t function in life, but I found it interesting to see that the bible NEVER tell us to ”trust” another human. I am fascinated by this find.
This scriptural fact brings up an important question... at what point do we put blind trust in the anointed? Once they're sealed would be my guess. Until then it's trust but verify.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
This scriptural fact brings up an important question... at what point do we put blind trust in the anointed? Once they're sealed would be my guess. Until then it's trust but verify.
Exactly. In some way we will know they have been chosen. The scriptures say they will shine as brightly as the sun. If we know the scriptures and if we have Jehovah’s spirit, we will know it.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
Exactly. In some way we will know they have been chosen. The scriptures say they will shine as brightly as the sun. If we know the scriptures and if we have Jehovah’s spirit, we will know it.
It's all relative folks. I have trust in RK. He's never let me down. But if he contacted me and said he was really a Nigerian prince who needed my help to get millions out of the country...then I'd start to wonder. When he asked for 5000 for the "transfer fee" then I'd be out. Trust gone.

There are people in my life I very much trust but usually never blindly. That's how so many Brothers in the WBTS got into the spot they're in. They're now waiting for "strange and unexpected" directions from "the Slave". That doesn't work on most of us here because be don't have blind trust in the WTBS anymore. And we should never have trust in those who speak against Jehovah and/or his kingdom and relies on human salvation. I believe that's the import of Jer 17:5.

Trust should never be blind, it's earned. In God's humility he even asks us to see that he can be trusted, or good. We learn to trust fully in God.

Psalm 34:8 Taste and see that Jehovah is good; Happy is the man who takes refuge in him.
 
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