Disfellowship is it Christian? And shunning ?

Paz

Well-known member
The problem within the WT from my perspective, is not that someone is deprived of close company with the congregation for committing a sin and not repentance, but in the most absolute ostracism to which they are subjected. I was removed from the inside by a video of the WT where an expelled daughter called her family's house and her mother saw the phone number and did not accept the call. What if you need help? ... What if you have a serious problem? ... That's what I can't understand! Jesus never acted like this! He was kind and treated everyone, especially sinners, with dignity. But the WT and its hidden black hand have transformed the JW robots without feelings, because they are supposed to be supporting Jehovah's loving discipline. What blasphemy !!
Very good point Cherry, in the Russian court case the Ban on JW is lawful under Art 9 of UN laws on human rights. The practice of shunning, that most certainly was NOT practiced by Christ as you say, was defined by one medical expert witness as ‘emotional torture’ that was accepted by the court, meaning that if unless the GB stops this practice it’s unlawful and all members states worldwide should implement this ban on Jw organisation wherever they operate in countries that are members of the UN. It also means that if J Jackson had quickly contacted his fellow GB members back in Wallkill to change disfellowship policy and cease shunning then the Ban would not have been imposed and Russia would not have been able to internationally legally ban JW. Imagine the 174000+ brothers there not having to suffer. So the gb have blood on their hands, this sounds to me like the ‘beating of fellow slaves’ mentioned as a quality of the ‘evil slave’.
You're welcome. One thing I have found is that we should keep the congregation clean of all immoral sins, especially if such sins are affecting the spirituality of the congregation. Now when it comes to issues of doctrine, I find that normally a person who no longer believes as the congregation does will eventually part ways on his/her own. After all why continue fellowshipping with those who do not have your belief system?

Of course, if such a person begins to disrupt the meetings with their questioning then the congregation may take action. I have been privy to both cases.

RR
Hi, interesting term ‘keep the congregation clean’ just wondering where this phrase comes from. I know brother Franz and president Knorr started to introduce the phrase in 1950’s, in association with the term ‘New World Society’?
 
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Paz

Well-known member
Dear peace
I do not understand what you propose
You say excommunication or expulsion is Satanic
In 1 Corinthians Paul clearly says "remove the wicked one from among you" it is more that he "has judged"
In fact he says don't eat with that man
There in verse 4 he says "hand that man over to satan"
He says it in other places too
What is to hand over satan? Simply reject it and have no communion with it
The reason is explained by Juan

He said

1 John 1: 5 And this is the message that we have heard from him and we are announcing to you: + that God is light + and there is no darkness whatsoever in union with him. * + 6 If we make the statement: * “We have participation with him” , and yet we go on walking in the dark, + we are lying and we are not practicing the truth. + 7 However, if we walk in the light, as he himself is in the light, + we do have participation with each other, + and the Blood + of Jesus his Son cleanses us + from all sin. +

He also said

1 John 2: 4 He who says: “I have come to know him,” + and yet is not keeping his commandments, + is a liar, and the truth is not in this [person]. + 5 But anyone who does observe his word, + truly in this [person] love for God has been perfected. + By this we have the knowledge that we are in union with him. + 6 He who says he remains in union + with him is obliged himself also to keep walking Just as that one walked. +

It is very interesting to read all 1 juan to see what he says but in summary

if someone is sinning and says that he is in union with Christ he should be MARKED AS A LIAR
He logically he is not united to the congregation and we must separate ourselves from him

And if he departs he wants to abandon what is right and never come back
Should we treat him like a person without knowledge?
Pedro says that those who know the way and turn away are in a worse situation than those who did not know
If one strays from the path he has betrayed God
How can you act like nothing is wrong with a person who does that?
For me the expulsion is very clear in all the writing
It is true that the resource is sometimes abused
It is also true that injustices have been committed
But that is not why we are going to deny that biblical teaching
The system the organization uses has flaws and would like them to be corrected
But if we changed the system there would also be defects
It is simply unrealistic to find a perfect system that avoids mistakes
Errors are human and will always exist
The problem is the lack of spirituality and knowledge when dealing with issues
Seeing how to expel teaching is a problem is to lose sight of the fact that the problem is the people involved
What we have are principles
Systems and procedures come and go
Many times depend on local culture and laws
What must be understood are the principles and apply them
If a brother sins, he does not repent and persists in sin, we must cut off the deal with him to help him understand
You cannot deny that because it is clear in the writing
On you differentiation of remove and expel you have not taken into account the Greek word
The word is:
exairo (ἐξαίρω, G1808), remove from the middle of (ek, outside of, and airo, see No. 1). It is used of ecclesial discipline in 1Co_5: 13; in 1Co_5: 2 it is used in TR: "was removed", instead of No. 1, which appears in the mss. most commonly accepted.
The action was taken by the congregation and was "to remove the sinner from their midst AFTER HAVING JUDGED THE ACTION
That is simply to expel him, the concept is biblical
Hi, I am sorry that I disagree with you and you mention many scriptures that those who think expelling/disfellowship is fine, just as many who teach the Trinity quote many scripture references. The problem for me is whatever reasonings are used the presumption is we need to keep the congregation ‘clean’ . This reasoning is flawed and the term clean was it used by Christ in his actions on earth? Hell can be supported by numerous scriptures if you want to believe it, it was this moral issue that Bro Russell and his associates agreed on was that Hell as an idea conflicts with Jehovah being a loving God. So it was not scriptural arguments that are of concern to me it’s what would Jesus said to you If you sat with him and asked him. I ask myself when my son was a teenager, if he did something terrible would I expell him, shun him, No I could not . I would encourage him to seek help, give himself up, go to prison, face the music, he would have my support. If he was not ‘repentant’ would I expell him from my love, have no fellowship with him to keep myself clean ? No that would make me dirtier/worse than him as a father before God. Jesus loves us despite our sinfulness. What kind of love is conditional? Satans. I will be friends if you do this or that. No . It is claimed that ‘bad association spoils good habits’ yes it’s true so some do home schooling to protect their children but Jesus parents did not do that, Jesus needed to experience the world so he could know humanity know it’s sinfulness and love people , They say hate the sin not the sinner. So on the grounds of Love I don’t believe expelling for the Christian congregation is biblical whatever arguments are made from scripture are used to contradict that view. Much love . P
 

Paz

Well-known member
The definition of 'disfellowshiping' is 'withdrawal of fellowship.'

Shunning should be no more than withdrawing fellowship, just like Christian's wouldn't normally fellowship with unbelievers.
I agree so withdrawal of social activity etc till the sinner makes changes but to me this is not expulsion or disfellowship that is practiced even if will stop the shunning part ( that is satanic) it’s ‘marking’ that would include not being able to be a publisher or for bros any sort of privilege in the congregation. The many scriptures those who like the excommunication process and claim it supports really don’t add up, the only one record of expelling was practiced and that was Diotrephes 3Jn 9-11 John does not suggest that this apostate elder be put before some sort of judicial committee to disfellowship him, he just says to the congregation to ‘not to imitate bad’. If there is a disruption to meetings then there are attendants to keep order. Thank you Posstot
 

Nomex

Well-known member
So it was not scriptural arguments that are of concern to me it’s what would Jesus said to you If you sat with him and asked him.
I think you make some excellent points. When you are building something you start with the foundation. Jesus words about "you will know my followers if they have love among themselves" is one of the fundamental building blocks of the Christian Congregation. Some years ago a friend of mine had a close relative die, I think it was his Aunt, while disfellowshipped, I mention this fact to an elder and he commented something to the effect that she would not be resurrected. Since I grew up in the "truth" I was not really surprised by this comment, but I was stilled shocked in the sense that I cannot believe the utter lack of love displayed by those "taking the lead." How is it, that disfellowshipping is supposed to compel someone to "return" to God's congregation when it is such a shocking display of lack of love. The point Jesus was making is that we would be compelled to want to associate because of the love they display. Yet somehow disfellowshipping is "love". I mentioned in this thread that a witnesses an elder "dodge" a disfellowshipped mentalloy ill person. This person reached out to this Elder to try to shake his hand, and the elder recoiled in disgust. His reaction was in fact sickening. This person was a ward of the state, probably still is, he is institutionalized. He is permanently, confined to a mental institution, and everyone in that Hall knew it. ( As I said, they would let his Mom take him out for short periods when he was doing okay.) It makes me sick to my stomach right now typing this experience. It is a shocking display of the lack of love among Jehovah's Witnesses. It's one of the reasons I ended up here. Keep in mind the elders do NOT have to shun a disfellowshipped person, they are the only ones who are allowed to talk to them. It is just a blatant proof of the disgusting behavior of the congregations and complete lack of love.
 

Paz

Well-known member
I think you make some excellent points. When you are building something you start with the foundation. Jesus words about "you will know my followers if they have love among themselves" is one of the fundamental building blocks of the Christian Congregation. Some years ago a friend of mine had a close relative die, I think it was his Aunt, while disfellowshipped, I mention this fact to an elder and he commented something to the effect that she would not be resurrected. Since I grew up in the "truth" I was not really surprised by this comment, but I was stilled shocked in the sense that I cannot believe the utter lack of love displayed by those "taking the lead." How is it, that disfellowshipping is supposed to compel someone to "return" to God's congregation when it is such a shocking display of lack of love. The point Jesus was making is that we would be compelled to want to associate because of the love they display. Yet somehow disfellowshipping is "love". I mentioned in this thread that a witnesses an elder "dodge" a disfellowshipped mentalloy ill person. This person reached out to this Elder to try to shake his hand, and the elder recoiled in disgust. His reaction was in fact sickening. This person was a ward of the state, probably still is, he is institutionalized. He is permanently, confined to a mental institution, and everyone in that Hall knew it. ( As I said, they would let his Mom take him out for short periods when he was doing okay.) It makes me sick to my stomach right now typing this experience. It is a shocking display of the lack of love among Jehovah's Witnesses. It's one of the reasons I ended up here. Keep in mind the elders do NOT have to shun a disfellowshipped person, they are the only ones who are allowed to talk to them. It is just a blatant proof of the disgusting behavior of the congregations and complete lack of love.
Hi Nomex , what a lovely comment and a sad experience. The ‘wages sin pays is death’ adamic death is paid fully at death. No more punishment is warranted that is why the evil teaching of Hell is impossible. Millions of so called disfellowshipped ones will survive Armageddon and others who have died we will see in the resurrection. Many who insist on judging their brother will be judged adversely by Christ who is the only approved Judge by Jehovah. Even he will not judge anybody till he ‘returns’ when ‘every eye will see him’. Since the sheep are Christs properTy who would dare to defy his authority and start judging now, these same elders have also abused children or covered it up. Our wonderful ‘faithful’ and discreet slave have set up this evil policy and as of now have not issued a worldwide apology for this abuse and the cancellation of the disfellowship arrangement including the international unlawful shunning policy. Many including Robert have warned them to change or face Jehovah’s wrath. So all we can do is follow Christ s commands with good association that is here on this site, witness when you can and pray with a grateful in our heart to our loving God through his dear Son. Much Christian love, Paz
 

Paz

Well-known member
The letter to the Corinthians makes it clear that the unrepentant sinner was expelled
The issue is that this resource is abused and sometimes wrongly expelled
But that doesn't mean that expelling is wrong
The issue of closed-door committees is truly based on confidentiality
The sinner needs confidentiality to seek help
Would someone be motivated to share private topics with the entire congregation?
He would hardly do it, that is why confidential secrecy is required when dealing with personal matters
It is also clear that there are laws
If you cause harm to someone by telling something confidential, you can be sued
For this reason, to protect privacy and avoid conflicts and demands, committees of 3 members are made.
The problem is not the system or method
The problem is the people
You can have the best system and the wrong people will make it fail
You can have the worst protocols and spiritual people will make it work.
When someone is expelled, the elders who vote for expulsion are WITNESSES before the congregation
They carry a burden before jehovah
If they are FALSE WITNESSES they will be punished
What makes the system work or fail are the people
Unfortunately, the GB has poorly trained many elders and has developed regulations that make many injustices commented on.
Likewise, most of those expelled have been expelled correctly.
There have been injustices, it is true, but that is not why we should eliminate the expulsion system because it is biblical.
If this Catholic teaching of excommunication/ disfellowship that was condemned in an Awake in 1947 as apostate and satanic which was the view since 1870’s with Russell and Rutherford why a change of policy in 1952?
 

Paz

Well-known member
The worst part about this is as an elder he could have talked to him, they're the only one's who can!!!
I agree with you. There cannot be the same yardstick for all cases. Each case is different. A sinner is not the same as an apostate. And among sins pedophilia is the most aberrant, and deserves expulsion. First, if the child does not report it, the pedophile will not confess it. Second, having sexual contact with a child always implies premeditation and treachery, in a way that eliminates the victim's defense possibilities. Third, the child never consents to this abuse, he only does it under threats. So all this makes it clear that it is not a weakness at a specific moment and that therefore it motivates the sinner's repentance. On the contrary, the pedophile, if he was not discovered, would continue with the abuses of him. He "regrets" because they caught him, period. The WT is too condescending to pedophiles. Why is it? ...
Hi Cherry, the elders authority is only meant to be pastoral that means any member of the congregation accused of a breach in Caesars law should be referred directly to Caesar the elders continued involvement would mean there failure to ‘give Caesars things to Caesar’ and thus gaining Christs disapproval. Pedophile abuse is most certainly Caesars domain only. My website explaines this in the Jw section in green print at the end of the Jesus section Press button. It’s a hidden sections + 1. Who is at fault for this whole so called disfellowship policy? The GB. Why did the Wt exist for from 1872 till 1952 without this policy for 80yrs without serous problems? 10000’s of child abuse cases worldwide none known prior to 1952. Interesting most are committed with elders knowledge, or elder’s themselves or they have covered up and withheld evidence from Caesar. How criminal. You are absolutely right it is terribly condescending and the victim s are permanently scared. Regards, P
 

Paz

Well-known member
WT disfellowshipping appears similar to what the Pharisee’s and Sadducee’s did in Jesus day by threatening to throw members out of the synagogue if they didn’t toe their often unscriptural line.
And where does the WT leadership get off determining when you’ve become sufficiently repentant enough to be permitted back into the fold?
Jesus made it clear , from the parable of the prodigal son, that when the son had come to regret his course of action, his father ,who was representative of Jehovah, readily welcomed his son back home.
WT leadership more typifies the angry brother who wanted punishment meted out to his salvaged brother.
Hi Ken quite right i agree with your anology of the wt and the angry brother are similar. I also noticed the prodigal son left on his own accord. Their was no judicial committee a charge of lack of repentance and a disfellowship. Just imagine if Jesus did not want to defile his cleanness (being perfect) why would he mix with us filthy imperfect humans. When ‘doubting’ Thomas would not exercise faith without seeing the wounds on Jesus hands , why didn't jesus appoint 3 of his faithful apostles for a judicial committee who could establish if he was ‘repentant’ of course his failure to convince the committee of his repentance, then of course disfellowship him and why not also SHUN him forever if necessary. Tell his relatives that if he does not recant he will die at Armageddon and suffer the second death. How loving! I must stop, just a a little laugh. Take care, Paz
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
Hi Ken quite right i agree with your anology of the wt and the angry brother are similar. I also noticed the prodigal son left on his own accord. Their was no judicial committee a charge of lack of repentance and a disfellowship. Just imagine if Jesus did not want to defile his cleanness (being perfect) why would he mix with us filthy imperfect humans. When ‘doubting’ Thomas would not exercise faith without seeing the wounds on Jesus hands , why didn't jesus appoint 3 of his faithful apostles for a judicial committee who could establish if he was ‘repentant’ of course his failure to convince the committee of his repentance, then of course disfellowship him and why not also SHUN him forever if necessary. Tell his relatives that if he does not recant he will die at Armageddon and suffer the second death. How loving! I must stop, just a a little laugh. Take care, Paz
Good one!👏
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
The faithful slave slowly changes by starting to ‘beat his fellow slaves’ this began in a small way from the early 1950’s but has increased to millions being disfellowshipped over the years to date. This Includes the 2 witness rule and the child abuse cases mainly undertaken by these same elders involved in enjoying the extremely cruel disfellowshipping policy. Of course the faithful slave has slowly changed in to the ‘man of lawlessness’ the ‘evil slave’. Thank you for your comments Ken.
Thank you for noticing.
 
D

Dane500

Guest
Nope.
getmyip is just the address name of the server.
You can go there directly and get the files.
da.getmyip.com/pdf/ramblings

:^)
Dane
 
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