How Jehovah's see's the Future, and we still have free will.

Nomex

Well-known member
This is something that has intrigued me for a long time. If Jehovah can see the future, why create two humans who would sin?

The WT has an explanation that is not so bad. Jehovah uses his ability to see into the future selectively. But could it be something even more simplistic. We all predict the future/foresee the future in a limited scope. We know if we take a certain route for example, we can be at a certain place at a certain time. We know if we follow directions and we get really good at a task, we can predict with almost absolute certainty an outcome. So did Jehovah knew the outcome of Adam and Eve's rebellion? Yes. But he also saw the outcome in they had not rebelled. They could have chosen not to rebel. Either way Jehovah knew the outcome. They could have chosen not to rebel! So when Jehovah pronounced their judgement, he already knew this before hand, but he also knew what would have happened had they obeyed, but more importantly, he saw a future where they obeyed.

Jehovah sees all possibilities. The possibility he does not see, is Satan winning!!!!!
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
Ephesians 1:4 just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Given this passage indicates the arrangement of the annointed was part of Jehovah's plan before the founding of the world absolutely he anticipated how the timeline went in the garden.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
Ephesians 1:4 just as he chose us in union with him before the founding of the world, that we should be holy and without blemish before him in love. 5 For he foreordained us to the adoption through Jesus Christ as sons to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Given this passage indicates the arrangement of the annointed was part of Jehovah's plan before the founding of the world absolutely he anticipated how the timeline went in the garden.
There you go....but in order for us to have free will, he (JEHOVAH) had to know the outcome if we obeyed. In fact he would have to see all and any outcome. Other wise we would have no free will.
 

Asadour

Well-known member
@Nomex

that’s an interesting topic- in fact i just finished reading about a prophecy in Deuteronomy 28:63:

And it must occur that just as Jehovah exulted over you to do you good and to multiply you, so Jehovah will exult over you to destroy you and to annihilate you; and you will simply be torn away from off the soil to which you are going to take possession of it.”

What is especially interesting about this prophecy is that it was written in advanced of the covenant. Jehovah knew in advance that the nation would not keep his covenant. And so God actually foretold Israel’s desolation even before ever they entered into the Promised Land.

So, you’re right, God sees all possible outcomes and he has a predetermined response or solution if you will, for whatever one comes about, not effecting free will one iota.

He is never unprepared to respond appropriately to any outcome, and his response is always a combined wise, just, loving and merciful one.

 
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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
This is something that has intrigued me for a long time. If Jehovah can see the future, why create two humans who would sin?

The WT has an explanation that is not so bad. Jehovah uses his ability to see into the future selectively. But could it be something even more simplistic. We all predict the future/foresee the future in a limited scope. We know if we take a certain route for example, we can be at a certain place at a certain time. We know if we follow directions and we get really good at a task, we can predict with almost absolute certainty an outcome. So did Jehovah knew the outcome of Adam and Eve's rebellion? Yes. But he also saw the outcome in they had not rebelled. They could have chosen not to rebel. Either way Jehovah knew the outcome. They could have chosen not to rebel! So when Jehovah pronounced their judgement, he already knew this before hand, but he also knew what would have happened had they obeyed, but more importantly, he saw a future where they obeyed.

Jehovah sees all possibilities. The possibility he does not see, is Satan winning!!!!!
I do not think it is a matter of prediction. The test was there, just as it is now here. It is not to do with Jehovah’s ability to see the end from the beginning, but whether they were willing to submit. The assumption is that Jehovah knows what is to happen, based upon that scripture, but is it reasonable to assume such? The scripture can be broken down into its constituent parts. Jehovah is all knowing. True. Yet we too have children and of whom we know far more about than they would wish us to know. But we do not know what is in their heart, or their motives, only their actions. Naturally, we are wary of putting limitations on the Creator, but if we apply the same methodology to Him as we do our own parental knowldedge, we find that we don’t really want to know the intimate lives of our children. What we do want, is to know that they love us for who we are. We want them to be ‘grateful’ to us in acknowledging us as the life giver to them and to respect us. We are made in the “image” of Jehovah. We have all that is needed for our children to love us, appreciate and to be loyal. We also know that our children can go their own way and revile us, hate us, never visit and want nothing to do with us. We think in such cases, where did I go wrong and immediately try to set things right. Sometimes to no avail.

We are made with the attributes of Jehovah. We all have within us the knowledge and understanding of those attributes. The attributes critically contain the ability to use those attributes to our very limit - or to ignore them. It is not a question as to knowing what our children will do, but what they will want to do in respect of our parenthood. What will they give to us.

By it’s very value of selfless altruism lies it’s worth. That cannot be bought. It cannot be predicted because it is in itself freely given through independent choice. How so? Because it is the only thing that we can own of ourselves, and give back. It is the value of our life as we see it to be. It is ours to do with as we want. So it is not a matter of prediction, but a value freely given. It is our independent concept that is the unpredictable concept because it’s depth, meaning and outcome depend on how we view our creator. Our actions are secondary to that are they not? The scripture says it all. “Miserable man that I am, what I wish to do, I do not do…” . Thus the equation is depth of feeling, not actions, conscience guiding love, love ruling action. We fail, but by what means? What motive?

That issue is critical to our heart condition. Jehovah sees the sentiment, the essence of what we are and the fact that we freely and voluntarily give back to Him, that which He gave us. Prediction is not a factor. Jehovah is not looking for obedience born of mechanical, predictable action, but to the measure of love that would motivate the need of obedience and the joy of serving the Creator. The motive is from within. It is the actions of our soul that so often fails us, and it fails us because we cannot reach the true concept of love for the creator. It is hidden from us. We are imperfect. Therefore, we should not be looking for predictable outcomes. That is an equation without resolution. What we look for is motivation and the measure of that comes voluntarily from within. Is that predicable when it is dependent on the immeasurable concept of love and it driving force that we generate for ourselves. It must be of extraordinary value to Jehovah because it is the love of a child for its father. It is the only thing we own, that is not belonging to Jehovah. It is ours to give. Hence not predicable. That leaves us with the unpalatable truth that Adam and Eve did not love Jehovah, but were selfish and wanted what Jehovah had and which did not belong to them.
 

Jah-son

Well-known member
This is something that has intrigued me for a long time. If Jehovah can see the future, why create two humans who would sin?

The WT has an explanation that is not so bad. Jehovah uses his ability to see into the future selectively. But could it be something even more simplistic. We all predict the future/foresee the future in a limited scope. We know if we take a certain route for example, we can be at a certain place at a certain time. We know if we follow directions and we get really good at a task, we can predict with almost absolute certainty an outcome. So did Jehovah knew the outcome of Adam and Eve's rebellion? Yes. But he also saw the outcome in they had not rebelled. They could have chosen not to rebel. Either way Jehovah knew the outcome. They could have chosen not to rebel! So when Jehovah pronounced their judgement, he already knew this before hand, but he also knew what would have happened had they obeyed, but more importantly, he saw a future where they obeyed.

Jehovah sees all possibilities. The possibility he does not see, is Satan winning!!!!!
Kind like this? 🤔
 

Jim

Active member
I do not think it is a matter of prediction. The test was there, just as it is now here. It is not to do with Jehovah’s ability to see the end from the beginning, but whether they were willing to submit. The assumption is that Jehovah knows what is to happen, based upon that scripture, but is it reasonable to assume such? The scripture can be broken down into its constituent parts. Jehovah is all knowing. True. Yet we too have children and of whom we know far more about than they would wish us to know. But we do not know what is in their heart, or their motives, only their actions. Naturally, we are wary of putting limitations on the Creator, but if we apply the same methodology to Him as we do our own parental knowldedge, we find that we don’t really want to know the intimate lives of our children. What we do want, is to know that they love us for who we are. We want them to be ‘grateful’ to us in acknowledging us as the life giver to them and to respect us. We are made in the “image” of Jehovah. We have all that is needed for our children to love us, appreciate and to be loyal. We also know that our children can go their own way and revile us, hate us, never visit and want nothing to do with us. We think in such cases, where did I go wrong and immediately try to set things right. Sometimes to no avail.

We are made with the attributes of Jehovah. We all have within us the knowledge and understanding of those attributes. The attributes critically contain the ability to use those attributes to our very limit - or to ignore them. It is not a question as to knowing what our children will do, but what they will want to do in respect of our parenthood. What will they give to us.

By it’s very value of selfless altruism lies it’s worth. That cannot be bought. It cannot be predicted because it is in itself freely given through independent choice. How so? Because it is the only thing that we can own of ourselves, and give back. It is the value of our life as we see it to be. It is ours to do with as we want. So it is not a matter of prediction, but a value freely given. It is our independent concept that is the unpredictable concept because it’s depth, meaning and outcome depend on how we view our creator. Our actions are secondary to that are they not? The scripture says it all. “Miserable man that I am, what I wish to do, I do not do…” . Thus the equation is depth of feeling, not actions, conscience guiding love, love ruling action. We fail, but by what means? What motive?

That issue is critical to our heart condition. Jehovah sees the sentiment, the essence of what we are and the fact that we freely and voluntarily give back to Him, that which He gave us. Prediction is not a factor. Jehovah is not looking for obedience born of mechanical, predictable action, but to the measure of love that would motivate the need of obedience and the joy of serving the Creator. The motive is from within. It is the actions of our soul that so often fails us, and it fails us because we cannot reach the true concept of love for the creator. It is hidden from us. We are imperfect. Therefore, we should not be looking for predictable outcomes. That is an equation without resolution. What we look for is motivation and the measure of that comes voluntarily from within. Is that predicable when it is dependent on the immeasurable concept of love and it driving force that we generate for ourselves. It must be of extraordinary value to Jehovah because it is the love of a child for its father. It is the only thing we own, that is not belonging to Jehovah. It is ours to give. Hence not predicable. That leaves us with the unpalatable truth that Adam and Eve did not love Jehovah, but were selfish and wanted what Jehovah had and which did not belong to them.
"That leaves us with the unpalatable truth that Adam and Eve did not love Jehovah". That statement hit me like a ton of bricks. I'd NEVER even contemplated that. How sad for Jehovah to have had to come to that realization himself. It must have grieved him.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
What's interesting about the subject of freewill is there are many aspects to it. For one if everything was predetermined like the Calvinists claim, it begs the question who is responsible for the actions people take whether good or bad. Every action stems from a thought to carry it out. If our thoughts were predetermined then are we even thinking our own thoughts? If not, are we even conscious (self-aware) of anything at all? If not, am I even me or real at all since I am not truly the one experiencing existence. It's one way of looking at things.
 

Asadour

Well-known member
What's interesting about the subject of freewill is there are many aspects to it. For one if everything was predetermined like the Calvinists claim, it begs the question who is responsible for the actions people take whether good or bad. Every action stems from a thought to carry it out. If our thoughts were predetermined then are we even thinking our own thoughts? If not, are we even conscious (self-aware) of anything at all? If not, am I even me or real at all since I am not truly the one experiencing existence. It's one way of looking at things.
excellent post. this^^^
 

Patricia

Active member
I don't know, but I am of the opinion that in Eve's case, since she was deceived, it might not have had anything to do with love or lack of it. Imagine being totally innocent, never being exposed to evil, never heard a lie before, didn't even know the definition of the word. And you're walking through the garden and you look up and there is this snake, eating the fruit, and he tells you, you can eat it and be like God. He's not dying. And he is talking. There must be some crazy power in that fruit. -------I am imagining how it could have played out, since we aren't given all the details,-----now Adam on the other hand, I think he must have loved Eve more than Jehovah. But I don't know. So many questions that we can ask the one who knows all things in the not too distant future (I hope).
 

Nomex

Well-known member
I do not think it is a matter of prediction.
I was not saying Jehovah makes predictions. I am saying that we, as human beings, engage in a type of "fortune telling" by simply knowing the outcome of decisions we make and that some of our experiences prove without doubt the outcome of those decisions. I was simply making a comparison to our limited ability to see into the future and that of the Supreme Being, and that it does not mean that that ability makes his creation predestined, simply because of our freewill, we are not forced to make wrong or right decisions. Jehovah in his infinite abilities, see's all outcomes! Therefore his ability to see the future with 100% complete accuracy, does not make that "prophecy" the only outcome. In other words, if Adam and Eve had made a different choice, Jehovah saw that outcome as well! But because they were created with free will, Jehovah does not know what decision we will make before we make it! However, he see's the outcome of whatever decision we do make, good or bad! He can sees with complete accuracy all outcomes of our decisions.
 

Nomex

Well-known member
I don't know, but I am of the opinion that in Eve's case, since she was deceived,
This is something I have given a considerable amount of thought to. There's a saying "you can't con an honest man." Before I go into what that means, we have to consider something none of us can relate to or understand. Eve was perfect. We have no idea what that means, but it is enough that what she did, she could not be forgiven for. It's the same reason the Rebel angels cannot be forgiven. Perfection. Eve may have been young, but she was created as a mature adult, not a teenager. So, back to "you cannot con an honest man."

Eve's sin was not that she was deceived but why she was deceived. Satan's claim that she "would be like God knowing good an bad" appealed to her. Her sin was wanting something that did not belong to her! Eve's actual sin was wanting "to be like God." Somehow Satan saw in Eve, a "kindrid spirit". Somehow he knew that would appeal to her...and he was right. He was observing them, and he saw things the Bible does not tell us about. He was also counting on Adam choosing his wife over Jehovah. As I said, he was watching them!
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
The be like god in the Hebrew was actually the plural form of the word there's a targum that phrases it be like great angels. Nachash has three meanings that don't all require there to have been a physical snake puppet in the garden Eve could have very well seen Satan more of less as he was a cherub that going by testament of Amram probably had a snakelike head. It would make sense she was deceived when speaking to a spirit creature one of several cherubs that guarded the garden given he was more saying she'd have knowledge like spirit creatures more generally than being like the father specifically.
 

Jahrule

Well-known member
Although the world around us is determined, the mind is free to make decisions. How in control we are is up for debate. But I do believe in free will, despite the fact reality is deterministic. Everything that happens has a cause. If I go home and my house is on fire I don't just throw up my hands concluding it was just another one of those random things. Stuff doesn't just happen. It's a chain. Theoretically you could follow it all the way back to the beginning of the universe.

Everything has a cause. One thing leads to another thing. This appears true everywhere except when it comes to the mind. It at least seems as though our choices are able to operate independently of what is happening around us. If a wall of water a thousand feet high charges at me at the speed of sound, I could run like everyone else or I could just dance.

Not a common response to such a scenario. True. It is undeniably something somebody could do if they wanted. God created us to make decisions. God doesn't need to know everything we will do in order to be all knowing. Sure, if he were to examine us individually there is nothing we could do that would surprise him. But maybe that's part of the reason Jehovah refuses to deal with us directly or part of the reason seeing him would kill us.

When it comes to predicting the world, on the other hand, that's easy. Even humans can make accurate predictions based on large populations of people making decisions as groups. We have computers that do this. Jehovah is more powerful than any supercomputer. He can see all that data too. He can look at that and go, "Yep. I know exactly where this is going." No magic required. No special super power. He doesn't have to consult a crystal ball. None of that. It's basically just data processing. Just at a level we can't comprehend.

This doesn't effect free will because God is simply making predictions based on what people are already doing. He understands that cause and effect chain better than we can. If people suddenly did something different God's predictive model would change to reflect that. It is true that some dates have already been determined. The day of Jehovah is set. But then again, that's a level far beyond the influence of human decision making, so I don't think that affects free will either.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I was not saying Jehovah makes predictions. I am saying that we, as human beings, engage in a type of "fortune telling" by simply knowing the outcome of decisions we make and that some of our experiences prove without doubt the outcome of those decisions. I was simply making a comparison to our limited ability to see into the future and that of the Supreme Being, and that it does not mean that that ability makes his creation predestined, simply because of our freewill, we are not forced to make wrong or right decisions. Jehovah in his infinite abilities, see's all outcomes! Therefore his ability to see the future with 100% complete accuracy, does not make that "prophecy" the only outcome. In other words, if Adam and Eve had made a different choice, Jehovah saw that outcome as well! But because they were created with free will, Jehovah does not know what decision we will make before we make it! However, he see's the outcome of whatever decision we do make, good or bad! He can sees with complete accuracy all outcomes of our decisions.
Ah right. Ok! I’m a black and white person. Things are one thing or the other. I shall try harder to look for parallel meaning. 👍 Sorry about that. I didn’t mean to lecture.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
"That leaves us with the unpalatable truth that Adam and Eve did not love Jehovah". That statement hit me like a ton of bricks. I'd NEVER even contemplated that. How sad for Jehovah to have had to come to that realization himself. It must have grieved him.
Perhaps it might have been better put to say that Adam and Eve did not appreciate jehovah, rather than did not love His attributes. I suggested ‘did not love‘ Jehovah because, for example, failure to look out on a beautiful day and not appreciate the creator takes a very closed, unappreciative, insular mind. Or to not regard one’s spouse as our compliment of ourselves, (if well chosen) or to see all the attributes of Jehovah as written, then surely we lack in our thinking? To me, looking at the open hand of Jehovah, and understanding His appreciation of humanity as His final achievement, is to love Him, because that achievement is the expression of his joy in sharing. The lack of appreciation in whom Jehovah is and His creation, certainly suggests greed and avarice. For me at least, such lack of empathy for and in Jehovah’s work and presence, reflects a poor insight into love, and that is what I see in Adam’s choices. Also, I do not claim to be right in what I say. I simply articulate what I understand, and most of that is probably built on the sands of ignorance in any event.
 
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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
What's interesting about the subject of freewill is there are many aspects to it. For one if everything was predetermined like the Calvinists claim, it begs the question who is responsible for the actions people take whether good or bad. Every action stems from a thought to carry it out. If our thoughts were predetermined then are we even thinking our own thoughts? If not, are we even conscious (self-aware) of anything at all? If not, am I even me or real at all since I am not truly the one experiencing existence. It's one way of looking at things.
We are independent in our thinking and concept of self as an independent individual. The proof is in our emotive being which determines our thinking and choices. Certainly there are commonalities within the spectrum, but that is simply a fact of our existence. It does not predetermine our analytical choices though within that framework. Also, the ethereal experience we have in life - that which constitutes our personality, is a mercurial measure of individual and unique experience. People tend to confuse this with pre-determination simply because there is a commonality in our life experience within the structure of creation. That much is true, but only because our physical bodies have limitations in their comprehension of the existence that we share. If we were spirit creatures on the level of Jehovah, we would and could create our own sense of existence in a unique experience beyond all others.
 

Asadour

Well-known member
I don't know if humans really know what Love really is. Kindness yes, but love is an all in quality... Most of the people I have ever seen pretend to love. They are never truly all in.
my theory about JWs not loving “all in” has to do perhaps with their guarded nature caused by the shunning policy. They hold back because they know even their most cherished relationship(s) can be ripped from them at anytime. They’re also regularly told to rat each other out. Heck, i used to rat myself out for things i didn’t even do. Yet.

You’re right though, we don’t love perfectly, not even ourselves. because humans are imperfect, we are selfish even when selfishness is not in our best interest- that is a trait very difficult to overcome on this side of Armageddon.

Perhaps parents love their kids all in. Not all parents though. My dad was a good provider but he sucked as a dad- i don’t think he ever loved me.

@BARNABY THE DOG.

I adore all your comments. You can lecture to me all day if you want. :)))))
 

4JahandChrist

Well-known member
The Elites seem to have a strong affiliation with the idea of Destiny or pre-destination which is why in some respects they are able to do what they do without much issues of conscience.

In the Babylonian Mystery School Cult they believe that they are destined to balance out the equation.

This is repeatedly made clear in Sci-Fi sagas like Star Wars and The Matrix whereby there is a continual balancing happening between Dark and Light.

The Black and White Floor pattern in Masonic Lodges and Churches the World over is apparently a reflection of this Gnosis. The never ending balancing of the equation of existence.

The Matrix repeatedly states this Masonic Theme. Neo and Smith are said to be "one" and by destiny they must fight each other to maintain balance.

The thought is that for God to give Free Will there must be choice and if there is choice then the capacity for evil must be intrinsic to all intelligent Creation.

In that sense the Masonic Babylonish Cult in some twisted way believe that God foresaw the fall and that they must pursue the "Left Hand Path" as part of prophecy and predestination. The Devil has duped them into thinking that they will achieve immortality in their twisted ideals as if it is something that God foreknew and brought about.

Accordingly they believe that they may die individually but their perceived "noble vison" of Left Hand Path Self Godhood will always exist so long as the Right Hand Path does. They will live eternally in the continuance of the Luciferian belief system even if they personally will enter oblivion. Those that follow after them in the left hand path will forever be destined to balance the equation. ( this is perhaps why many will still rebel at the end of the 1000 years)

It's very much like Americans and Australians. Americans are gun toting unrefined Cowboys and Australians are refined, well spoken Angelic creatures with absolutely no rough edges to speak of. It's just the equation balancing itself. :giggle:🙃😇

Here is Bob Dylan a Left Hand Path Mystery School Adherent explaining their concept. Notice his reference to "destiny" and simply being a passing member playing his role for a designated time.

 
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