Use of emblems only for anointed?

Status
Not open for further replies.
J

Jehovahsloyalchild

Guest
alan ford said:
Hi Susan, I see your point. It makes sense, but the Bible doesn't mention specifically that this is the case. It is based on "if this then that" logic as in, if Jesus is the passover lamb and he was killed on passover, then it means that it is a replacement for passover. Jews observed the passover as a reminder of what happened in Egypt. The symbolic part only got revealed later on, during Jesus' time. We have no specific mention whether this is a "replacement". To me it doesn't read like Jesus "instituted" anything. In order to do that we have to read into the text aka eisegesis. He simply told them to do this in remembrance of him. As for taking meals in the scriptures, it strikes me as odd how it becomes a thing all of a sudden when there is no mention of that practice before Jesus death.
Regarding 1 Cor. 11, in verses 25 and 26, most translations including the reference NWT, instead of "whenever you eat" render it "as often as you eat".
Another interesting thing is that the annual observation of memorial seems to be a relatively recent understanding. Or as WT says, readjustment. I'm not sure when this readjustment took place. But this article talks about that a bit:

This article also says that certain features of the passover were fulfilled in Jesus, but that it's not strictly the type of Lord's evening meal.

Finally how can you say you observe if you don’t eat the emblems? Jesus said "whoever eats…" If eating represents acceptance of Christ’s flesh and blood as a means of salvation what does passing them only represent? I think these are valid questions. WT says about other sheep, "they now find their situation “readjusted” to that of onlookers." Which doesn't find any support in the scriptures. I've learned to question all JW doctrines and take with a grain of salt everything that WT teaches because they use eisegesis a lot in their interpretations, so please forgive me as I don't mean to push my understanding as being the only correct one, I just want to make sure of the scriptures.
Click to expand...
I am presently unsure whether it's scriptual for the non anointed to pass the emblems. I am still conflicted in regards to whether we all should partake as Jesus died for us all and we all under a new covenant. The covenant of course of different with the chosen then the rest of the flock however, we are all under a new covenant as Jesus sacrifice abolished the old and ushered in the new. I have done independent research aside from WT teachings and I have discovered that passing the plate is connected to a satanic ritual. Noone knows for sure if they are anointed or not and even if they receive signs from Jehovah that they are being considered it is not guaranteed. I myself personally have had some signs from Jehovah but I am not going to say I am a chosen one. Until Jehovah seals me and sends his son I won't know for sure.
 
barry

barry

Well-known member
That's the part I'm also struggling with.
I've been doing research on the new covenant and the covenant for a kingdom and as Robert mentioned, both are separate covenants.

According to the report of Luke 22, Judas was still present when the Memorial itself was introduced and the bread and wine were distributed by Jesus. This was the start of the1 new covenant.
Later on Jesus started the covenant for a kingdom with those still present.
There was the ancient Israel under the 'old' covenant (Mosaic) and that was replaced by the Israel of God under the new covenant.
Revelation mentions that the 144000 are sealed out of the 12 tribes of Israel. The context shows that this does not mean literal Israel, but a 'spiritual' Israel.
With these Jesus concluded the covenant for a kingdom. But the others of the '12 tribes of Israel' would than represent those who have faith, having been spiritually circumcised. Would these than not be part of the 'spiritual' Israel.

As I mentioned before, there are many references when Jesus told the crowds that eating his flesh and drinking his blood means everlasting life. This looks to be referring to the emblems during the Memorial.
And as far as I know there is only the one text that would prevent from using the emblems, when it was considered as unworthily (not showing the respect it deserves)

Based on the info I found, it would look like all would need to partake and it would not indicate if you're anointed or not, which is something between the individual and Jehovah.
 
J

Jehovahsloyalchild

Guest
barry said:
That's the part I'm also struggling with.
I've been doing research on the new covenant and the covenant for a kingdom and as Robert mentioned, both are separate covenants.

According to the report of Luke 22, Judas was still present when the Memorial itself was introduced and the bread and wine were distributed by Jesus. This was the start of the1 new covenant.
Later on Jesus started the covenant for a kingdom with those still present.
There was the ancient Israel under the 'old' covenant (Mosaic) and that was replaced by the Israel of God under the new covenant.
Revelation mentions that the 144000 are sealed out of the 12 tribes of Israel. The context shows that this does not mean literal Israel, but a 'spiritual' Israel.
With these Jesus concluded the covenant for a kingdom. But the others of the '12 tribes of Israel' would than represent those who have faith, having been spiritually circumcised. Would these than not be part of the 'spiritual' Israel.

As I mentioned before, there are many references when Jesus told the crowds that eating his flesh and drinking his blood means everlasting life. This looks to be referring to the emblems during the Memorial.
And as far as I know there is only the one text that would prevent from using the emblems, when it was considered as unworthily (not showing the respect it deserves)

Based on the info I found, it would look like all would need to partake and it would not indicate if you're anointed or not, which is something between the individual and Jehovah.
Click to expand...
Very well put and it makes so much sense from a biblical perspective that all should partake.
 
alan ford

alan ford

Well-known member
barry said:
That's the part I'm also struggling with.
I've been doing research on the new covenant and the covenant for a kingdom and as Robert mentioned, both are separate covenants.

According to the report of Luke 22, Judas was still present when the Memorial itself was introduced and the bread and wine were distributed by Jesus. This was the start of the1 new covenant.
Later on Jesus started the covenant for a kingdom with those still present.
There was the ancient Israel under the 'old' covenant (Mosaic) and that was replaced by the Israel of God under the new covenant.
Revelation mentions that the 144000 are sealed out of the 12 tribes of Israel. The context shows that this does not mean literal Israel, but a 'spiritual' Israel.
With these Jesus concluded the covenant for a kingdom. But the others of the '12 tribes of Israel' would than represent those who have faith, having been spiritually circumcised. Would these than not be part of the 'spiritual' Israel.

As I mentioned before, there are many references when Jesus told the crowds that eating his flesh and drinking his blood means everlasting life. This looks to be referring to the emblems during the Memorial.
And as far as I know there is only the one text that would prevent from using the emblems, when it was considered as unworthily (not showing the respect it deserves)

Based on the info I found, it would look like all would need to partake and it would not indicate if you're anointed or not, which is something between the individual and Jehovah.
Click to expand...
That's how I understand it too. The part about the other sheep being part of spiritual Israel is very interesting! Maybe if we see the 144000 as a spiritual temple, or more specifically the inner courtyard (because they are priests), then it's possible that other sheep are the outer courtyard?
 
alan ford

alan ford

Well-known member
Jehovahsloyalchild said:
Very well put and it makes so much sense from a biblical perspective that all should partake.
Click to expand...
That's what makes sense to me too, but no one wants to partake unworthily. The "unworthily" part might have been mischaracterized. It's like erring on the side of caution, but if you take the scriptures at face value, it seems that the error is in not partaking.
 
barry

barry

Well-known member
alan ford said:
That's how I understand it too. The part about the other sheep being part of spiritual Israel is very interesting! Maybe if we see the 144000 as a spiritual temple, or more specifically the inner courtyard (because they are priests), then it's possible that other sheep are the outer courtyard?
Click to expand...
I see it a bit like the ancient nation of Israel where you had the regular Israelites and levites and priests. Not all of Israel were priests.
 
Medi-tator

Medi-tator

Well-known member
Partake away my brothers. Partake away to your hearts' content and be happy for it. My plan is to attend the meeting and thus "observe". You brothers make a case but it is not a sufficient one for me to convince me to partake of the emblems at this point in time. Thank you for doing the deep research that I have yet to do, but I must say that I am very selective as to my expenditure of time and for this matter, I am going to have to defer off to next year. I can tell you this, I am not a spiritual Jew. I am not a part of the Israel of God. Based on patterns and arrangements consistent with many matters outlined in the Bible (having an understanding of how Jehovah works), I am thinking you guys are grappling over words. But I do have to say that there are likely many things that we consider understood and we believe in heartily now, that could be dead wrong. This could be one of those for me. Jehovah will let us know in due course and will correct our paths if needed. You guys have great motives so again, I thank you for your hard work in doing your research. God's will be done!
 
barry

barry

Well-known member
Medi-tator said:
Partake away my brothers. Partake away to your hearts' content and be happy for it. My plan is to attend the meeting and thus "observe". You brothers make a case but it is not a sufficient one for me to convince me to partake of the emblems at this point in time. Thank you for doing the deep research that I have yet to do, but I must say that I am very selective as to my expenditure of time and for this matter, I am going to have to defer off to next year. I can tell you this, I am not a spiritual Jew. I am not a part of the Israel of God. Based on patterns and arrangements consistent with many matters outlined in the Bible (having an understanding of how Jehovah works), I am thinking you guys are grappling over words. But I do have to say that there are likely many things that we consider understood and we believe in heartily now, that could be dead wrong. This could be one of those for me. Jehovah will let us know in due course and will correct our paths if needed. You guys have great motives so again, I thank you for your hard work in doing your research. God's will be done!
Click to expand...
I'm absolutely not trying to convince anyone of partaking. I know it is a very sensitive topic.
It's just a very difficult topic and there are many points of view to it.
Based on the information presented I just want to see if I missed things that could correct my view if needed
 
Medi-tator

Medi-tator

Well-known member
alan ford said:
Ditto!
Click to expand...
Your sins are forgiven my sons. 20 hail Mary's should just about cover it. Oh no, I have on the wrong outer garment today again LOL.

Joking aside, these printed exchanges are devoid of the human interactions of inflection, tone and instant corrections if said exchanges are wandering off track etc etc. I know that I saw in your various posts that your intent was to simply get to the bottom of what you perceive to see in the scriptures, but I still fell victim of not really believing you when you say that because I am only reading the literal words on the physical page and not hearing any tones of sorrow, joy, pain, thrill or any possible correction/retraction on those printed words. The limitations on forums are immense and thus mis-understandings can happen almost automatically when the nature of the subject matter has any controversy in it whatsoever.
 
Last edited:
barry

barry

Well-known member
Medi-tator said:
Your sins are forgiven my sons. 20 hail Mary's should just about cover it. Oh no, I have on the wrong outer garment today again LOL.

Joking aside, these printed exchanges are devoid of the human interactions of inflection, tone and instant corrections if said exchanges are wandering off track etc etc. I know that I saw in your various posts that your intent was to simply get to the bottom of what you perceive to see in the scriptures, but I still fell victim of not really believing you when you say that because I am only reading the literal words on the physical page and not hearing and tones of sorrow, joy, pain, thrill or any possible correction/retraction on those printed words. The limitations on forums are immense and thus mis-understandings can happen almost automatically when the nature of the subject matter has any controversy in it whatsoever.
Click to expand...
That's true. I've been thinking a long time to start a thread about this, just for that reason.
It's not always clear if someone is genuinely trying to figure out something or if he's trying to teach/convince others of a certain view
 
SusanB

SusanB

Well-known member
alan ford said:
Hi Susan, I see your point. It makes sense, but the Bible doesn't mention specifically that this is the case. It is based on "if this then that" logic as in, if Jesus is the passover lamb and he was killed on passover, then it means that it is a replacement for passover. Jews observed the passover as a reminder of what happened in Egypt. The symbolic part only got revealed later on, during Jesus' time. We have no specific mention whether this is a "replacement". To me it doesn't read like Jesus "instituted" anything. In order to do that we have to read into the text aka eisegesis. He simply told them to do this in remembrance of him. As for taking meals in the scriptures, it strikes me as odd how it becomes a thing all of a sudden when there is no mention of that practice before Jesus death.
Regarding 1 Cor. 11, in verses 25 and 26, most translations including the reference NWT, instead of "whenever you eat" render it "as often as you eat".
Another interesting thing is that the annual observation of memorial seems to be a relatively recent understanding. Or as WT says, readjustment. I'm not sure when this readjustment took place. But this article talks about that a bit:

This article also says that certain features of the passover were fulfilled in Jesus, but that it's not strictly the type of Lord's evening meal.

Finally how can you say you observe if you don’t eat the emblems? Jesus said "whoever eats…" If eating represents acceptance of Christ’s flesh and blood as a means of salvation what does passing them only represent? I think these are valid questions. WT says about other sheep, "they now find their situation “readjusted” to that of onlookers." Which doesn't find any support in the scriptures. I've learned to question all JW doctrines and take with a grain of salt everything that WT teaches because they use eisegesis a lot in their interpretations, so please forgive me as I don't mean to push my understanding as being the only correct one, I just want to make sure of the scriptures.
Click to expand...
I understand what you are saying and thank you for your explanation. For me it is a settled matter and one that has been discussed on the forum before. I am sure you are correct that the Memorial isn’t plainly stated and described as the Passover was, but to me that is because it is following an already established pattern. Jehovah loves patterns. The flip side is that Jehovah has also not described a Memorial that is observed more often than once a year. So, if you only want to stick to God’s word then I don’t see how you would celebrate it often. With regard to who participates and partakes, that also is settled in my mind because Jesus instituted the covenant at that time with his brothers, the first ones to be anointed. As Robert King has pointed out, the main purpose of the Christian faith is to produce the anointed 144,000 in a like pattern as to how the Jewish system of worship was to produce the Messiah. Once they are sealed is when a change will happen which will then include the gathering of the Great Crowd. I have no doubt it will as dynamic a time as when Christianity took off.

It is good we are considering this matter. It is important.
 
Last edited:
PJ54

PJ54

Well-known member
SusanB said:
Once they are sealed is when a change will happen which will then include the gathering of the Great Crowd. I have no doubt it will as dynamic a time as when Christianity took off.
Click to expand...
This has me wonder if there will be a third covenant in the new system. Perhaps in relation to the Great Crowd & resurrected?
 
Watchman

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
PJ54 said:
This has me wonder if there will be a third covenant in the new system. Perhaps in relation to the Great Crowd & resurrected?
Click to expand...
No need. Mankind was originally created by God to live forever. Satan interrupted God's purpose but once the wicked are removed then Christ can initiate the recreation - restoring what was originally created. The new creation, however, is something, well, new; hence, a covenant was needed.
 
T

Truth_Seeker

Well-known member
And say to them, ‘This is what the Lord God says: “Behold, I am going to take the sons of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; “And My servant David will be king over them, and they will all have one shepherd; and they will walk in My ordinances, and keep My statutes and follow them. And they will live on the land that I gave to My servant Jacob, in which your fathers lived; and they will live on it, they, and their sons and their sons’ sons, forever; and My servant David will be their leader forever. And I will make a covenant of peace with them; it will be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will place them and multiply them, and set My sanctuary in their midst forever. My dwelling place also will be among them; and I will be their God, and they will be My people. And the nations will know that I am the Lord who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forever.” ’ ”
Ezekiel 37:21‭, ‬24‭-‬28
 
T

Truth_Seeker

Well-known member
Now may the God of peace, who brought up from the dead the great Shepherd of the sheep through the blood of the eternal covenant, that is, Jesus our Lord,
Hebrews 13:20

I said to him, “My Lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them. They will no longer hunger nor thirst, nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any scorching heat; for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes.”
Revelation 7:14‭-‬17
 
Last edited:
alan ford

alan ford

Well-known member
Medi-tator said:
Your sins are forgiven my sons. 20 hail Mary's should just about cover it.
Click to expand...
Sorry Mary no hails from me, I don't dabble in creature worship :ROFLMAO:
Medi-tator said:
these printed exchanges are devoid of the human interactions of inflection, tone and instant corrections if said exchanges are wandering off track etc etc.
Click to expand...
I know what you mean, and often it's hard to discern. It's hard to navigate this 2D world without physical presence or at least the voice... But I am willing to take that risk because there's much to learn from everyone. I want to cover all angles before adopting a belief. So many times during my study I was told that things are this way or that, only to find out that it was taken out of context. I am not afraid to question established beliefs if it results in a better understanding. I'm not sure whether that's a good thing or bad... :rolleyes:
 
Last edited:
alan ford

alan ford

Well-known member
SusanB said:
I understand what you are saying and thank you for your explanation. For me it is a settled matter and one that has been discussed on the forum before. I am sure you are correct that the Memorial isn’t plainly stated and described as the Passover was, but to me that is because it is following an already established pattern. Jehovah loves patterns. The flip side is that Jehovah has also not described a Memorial that is observed more often than once a year. So, if you only want to stick to God’s word then I don’t see how you would celebrate it often. With regard to who participates and partakes, that also is settled in my mind because Jesus instituted the covenant at that time with his brothers, the first ones to be anointed. As Robert King has pointed out, the main purpose of the Christian faith is to produce the anointed 144,000 in a like pattern as to how the Jewish system of worship was to produce the Messiah. Once they are sealed is when a change will happen which will then include the gathering of the Great Crowd. I have no doubt it will as dynamic a time as when Christianity took off.

It is good we are considering this matter. It is important.
Click to expand...
Thanks for your reply, it's very balanced and I don't disagree. But for me it's not yet completely settled and I feel I have to invest much more time in studying the scriptures until it clicks in my head... like Paul says "let each one be fully convinced in his own mind."
 
alan ford

alan ford

Well-known member
SusanB said:
It is good we are considering this matter. It is important.
Click to expand...
One other thing that I remembered, and I had it saved in my notes, is this
The Jewish Passover lamb was a forward-looking festival. It looked toward the arrival of the true Passover lamb, Jesus Christ. However, once that lamb was offered once for all time, the Passover festival was fulfilled. The Lord’s evening meal is a backward-looking ceremony intended to remind us of what was offered for us until he arrives.
Click to expand...
Does this make sense to you? To me it seems like a valid point.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top