2024 Regional convention releases with Part one of Jesus Drama

Meditator and I met at a book study in 1994. It was a shame they got rid of it. It was so much more personal than the larger congregation meetings.
They were so nice. Get this. One home that we met in for the Tuesday night book study always had a Christmas tree up at Christmas! The wife was a regular pioneer, and the husband was unbaptized but very supportive of his wife's ministry. He was even kinda regular at the meetings. Great guy. Dan was his name. He loved the congregation. My father even studied with Dan. But Dan never got baptized. I guess since Dan was head of the household and was well liked by even the elders, they let the Christmas tree thingy slide! I don't really remember anyone bothered by it!
 
1 Corinthians 2:11-16: “For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words. But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ.”

I think the key is to look at Christ. He was born into an apostate nation. But of course not everyone was apostate but the leadership certainly has a lot to answer for. Sounds familiar. How humble he was to obediently go the temple and his insight was recognized even as a child. All of the criticisms about the Jewish system could also be said about the ORG with one difference. Jehovah specifically put his approval on the Jewish nation and plainly said they are my people IF they obey my commands. Today, the corporation was never approved by Jehovah but the anointed have been assigned a task to feed the sheep. Whether or not they will be found faithful is yet to be seen, but we, who are imperfect and deserve nothing from Jehovah, should certainly show the same patience that Jesus, a perfect man, showed in growing up under the Jewish system.
 
I understand what you're saying. But some have some things right, others have some others things right. All claim to follow Christ yet they twist scriptures to fit their theology. And theology is the problem. IMO, none can claim exclusivity over others. Aren't any who do judging instead of God? I guess it's not so black and white...


It's these that God is looking for, no matter whey they are at present.


This was before Jesus. There's only one king now who is much wiser than any other king that ever existed. Those who submit to him are his people and they listen to him only.

Sure it does...





If you don't think that is correct, then tell me/us how it is that the 8th king will only come upon the WTS/JWs during the 42 months, after all that is the said time of judgment on the house of God, right?
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you. So Jesus uses the eighth king to judge God’s house which is WT/JW’s? If that is right then I do agree. If Watchtower wasn’t used in the first place, which is what all this squabbling has been about…then why would Jesus be judging it? ( that’s just a rhetorical question) Because Jehovah used them in the first place.

That is not to say that ONLY JEHOVAH’S WITNESSES will be saved. None of us are the judges or life givers. Jesus will decide that. Meanwhile, we know Jehovah’s will and we continue to do it with faith and love in our hearts.
 
I want to add to this thread that I so appreciate Jehovah allowing imperfect people to struggle to get to know him. He does not demand instant perfection and he does not endow anyone with instant and complete knowledge of him, his purposes nor the future. He allows us to make progress and GROW in spirituality. He even wants us to teach others what we know. Have I taught the 1914 error? Yes, I have and I am so sorry for that. Does that mean that Jehovah has thrown me away or condemned me to death? I hope not and I keep trying to seek his righteousness not my own. So, how could I ever put the blame on Jehovah for showing the same patience to others up until the point when the judgment will take place? Who has not promoted something that they later realized was wrong? It is so dangerous to condemn others when each one of us has guilt too.

As far as what the motive was of Charles Taze Russell, I have no idea. He has been dead over 100 years and I don’t believe all of the allegations people make today. Honestly I couldn’t care less because he’s dead. I’m interested in the living God, Jehovah and if Russell made some contribution to knowledge of Jehovah then I want to understand that. With regard to the stuff about the pyramids, I can tell he truly believed that had biblical value. Am I going to condemn everything he did because of that? No, I’m not going to make any judgments about the man, but I will judge what he taught by testing it to what the bible says. Very simple.

2 Peter 3:9: “Jehovah is not slow concerning his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire anyone to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance.”
 
To debate (In a respectful manner) .
This is what I have seen lacking many times even from Robert at times. Whenever someone starts calling into question someones motives or worse, calling them NAMES like "stupid" or "you don't know what you are talking about" is not being respectful.

We need to stick to the SCRIPTURES when answering, since we should all have the Bible as our ultimate authority, no?

And, if some have lost their faith in the Bible because of WT's bad conduct, they can ask for evidence to help build their faith back up.

For the record, and I hope she doesn't mind, I feel the need to bring what I feel is a relevant piece of information to this (hopefully respectful) discussion. While many may feel that Citrine has some barbs to her comments, she is the only one on this forum that I know of that actually lost a close family member due to taking the vaccine after not wanting to and being pressured by the GB. THAT is probably where a lot of these "barbs" are coming from: hurt and anger. And both are legitimate in my opinion.

So no wonder she's angry and working some through. Give her some compassion and space, okay? We're ALL hurting from WT's horrific acts.

And thank you, JMJLG for bring some MATURITY to this discussion. It was much needed. A big kiss on the nose to ya. ❤️
 
Ok, I’d like someone to answer this question for me. If Jehovah didn’t use WT/ organization then when Jesus comes back to judge his house FIRST, who’s he going to judge???
The anointed who show up at the beginning of the great tribulation????
 
This is what I have seen lacking many times even from Robert at times. Whenever someone starts calling into question someones motives or worse, calling them NAMES like "stupid" or "you don't know what you are talking about" is not being respectful.

We need to stick to the SCRIPTURES when answering, since we should all have the Bible as our ultimate authority, no?

And, if some have lost their faith in the Bible because of WT's bad conduct, they can ask for evidence to help build their faith back up.

For the record, and I hope she doesn't mind, I feel the need to bring what I feel is a relevant piece of information to this (hopefully respectful) discussion. While many may feel that Citrine has some barbs to her comments, she is the only one on this forum that I know of that actually lost a close family member due to taking the vaccine after not wanting to and being pressured by the GB. THAT is probably where a lot of these "barbs" are coming from: hurt and anger. And both are legitimate in my opinion.

So no wonder she's angry and working some through. Give her some compassion and space, okay? We're ALL hurting from WT's horrific acts.

And thank you, JMJLG for bring some MATURITY to this discussion. It was much needed. A big kiss on the nose to ya. ❤️
We may not all of lost members of our family to the vaccine , but many have recently lost family members . Many are suffering from being shunned by their own families . We are all fighting our own private battles , as well as trying to make sense of what The W/T has done to many , besides ourselves . Let us all seek to love one another , and continue putting up with one another . As Paul would start many of his letters , May you have undeserved kindness and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
 
Maybe I’m misunderstanding you. So Jesus uses the eighth king to judge God’s house which is WT/JW’s? If that is right then I do agree.
Jesus uses the 8th king for judgment on God's house, that part is correct.

God's house is the world is how I and others see it. The Scriptures support that thinking.
It is you and others that believe that God's house is WTS/JWs. That is fine, but if that is the case can you tell us if the 8th king only comes upon WTS/JWs during the 42 months or does he come upon the whole world?

The moment you realize that you are saying the 8th king comes upon the whole world/all peoples, you will understand that that being the case and since it is the 8th king that is used for judgment on God's house, then it is the world that is God's house. That judgment of the house is the 42 months of the 8th king and that is also known as the 'hour of test'. If that test comes upon ALL then ALL have the chance to pass it as well as fail it. Those that pass it are part of the GC, those that fail are cut off. In order to pass it and be part of the GC all have to refuse to submit to the 8th king during his rule. It is all the people collectively that are refusing the 8th king that are being trampled on. These are God's people who get refined and enlighten during this time and then come out from that time as the GC that God will spread his tent over.

38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil.

10 Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.

5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
 
Jesus uses the 8th king for judgment on God's house, that part is correct.

God's house is the world is how I and others see it. The Scriptures support that thinking.
It is you and others that believe that God's house is WTS/JWs. That is fine, but if that is the case can you tell us if the 8th king only comes upon WTS/JWs during the 42 months or does he come upon the whole world?

The moment you realize that you are saying the 8th king comes upon the whole world/all peoples, you will understand that that being the case and since it is the 8th king that is used for judgment on God's house, then it is the world that is God's house. That judgment of the house is the 42 months of the 8th king and that is also known as the 'hour of test'. If that test comes upon ALL then ALL have the chance to pass it as well as fail it. Those that pass it are part of the GC, those that fail are cut off. In order to pass it and be part of the GC all have to refuse to submit to the 8th king during his rule. It is all the people collectively that are refusing the 8th king that are being trampled on. These are God's people who get refined and enlighten during this time and then come out from that time as the GC that God will spread his tent over.

38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil.

10 Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.

5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
If you read 1 Peter 4:17–18 . Judgement starts with Gods house . Just as Nebuchadnezzar was used to first bring judgement upon the children of Israel , and then on others , So the 8th king will start with Jehovah`s house . It then goes on to talk about others .
 
If you read 1 Peter 4:17–18 . Judgement starts with Gods house . Just as Nebuchadnezzar was used to first bring judgement upon the children of Israel , and then on others , So the 8th king will start with Jehovah`s house . It then goes on to talk about others .
Everyone is well aware that judgment is to start with God's house first. The disagreement is on what is God's house. In Matt 13:38 to what is 'world' referring to?

As far as comparing the 8th king to Neb, it is not the same. When the 8th king comes to power it follows WW3. During that time all peoples (except for the evil elite behind causing it.) will be undergoing the same difficulties trying not to fall victim to the 'pangs of distress' to which 2 billion will perish. Then all 6 billion peoples (except for the evil elite) will be on the same level playing field of needing to return to normalcy. It's in that setting that all have to engage in one way or another with the 8th king.

17 For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?
5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.

7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.

31 “When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit down on his glorious throne. 32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate people one from another, just as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
 
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I held back from commenting on this issue … it looked like everyone had moved on until you had to double down on the same issue again this morning. I go back to my same question since you keep doubling down on everything and you are angry with the message this forum provides why are you here?
Since they avoided the question and even if they answer your question, I won’t see it. But I will tell you my best guess is that there are some on the forum who are setting up their own religion. One free of errors, at least in their own minds. They are looking for the unwary and those without scriptural knowledge.

Jude 1:12-13: “These are the rocks hidden below water at your love feasts while they feast with you, shepherds who feed themselves without fear; waterless clouds carried here and there by the wind; fruitless trees in late autumn, having died twice and having been uprooted; wild waves of the sea that cast up the foam of their own shame; stars with no set course, for which the blackest darkness stands reserved forever.”

2 Timothy 3:6-12: “From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires, always learning and yet never able to come to an accurate knowledge of truth. Now in the way that Janʹnes and Jamʹbres opposed Moses, so these also go on opposing the truth. Such men are completely corrupted in mind, disapproved as regards the faith. Nevertheless, they will make no further progress, for their folly will be very plain to all, as it was with those two men. But you have closely followed my teaching, my course of life, my purpose, my faith, my patience, my love, my endurance, the persecutions and sufferings such as I experienced in Antioch, in I·coʹni·um, in Lysʹtra. I endured these persecutions, and the Lord rescued me from them all. In fact, all those desiring to live with godly devotion in association with Christ Jesus will also be persecuted. But wicked men and impostors will advance from bad to worse, misleading and being misled. You, however, continue in the things that you learned and were persuaded to believe, knowing from whom you learned them and that from infancy you have known the holy writings, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.
 
Jesus uses the 8th king for judgment on God's house, that part is correct.

God's house is the world is how I and others see it. The Scriptures support that thinking.
It is you and others that believe that God's house is WTS/JWs. That is fine, but if that is the case can you tell us if the 8th king only comes upon WTS/JWs during the 42 months or does he come upon the whole world?

The moment you realize that you are saying the 8th king comes upon the whole world/all peoples, you will understand that that being the case and since it is the 8th king that is used for judgment on God's house, then it is the world that is God's house. That judgment of the house is the 42 months of the 8th king and that is also known as the 'hour of test'. If that test comes upon ALL then ALL have the chance to pass it as well as fail it. Those that pass it are part of the GC, those that fail are cut off. In order to pass it and be part of the GC all have to refuse to submit to the 8th king during his rule. It is all the people collectively that are refusing the 8th king that are being trampled on. These are God's people who get refined and enlighten during this time and then come out from that time as the GC that God will spread his tent over.

38 the field is the world. As for the fine seed, these are the sons of the Kingdom, but the weeds are the sons of the wicked one, 39 and the enemy who sowed them is the Devil.

10 Because you kept the word about my endurance, I will also keep you from the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.

5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?
Jesus STARTS to judge the house of God….then others who obviously are not of the house of God but the world and/ or those who do not obey the good news of God.
 
I no longer believe they were ever used!!! 100 years of false predictions, lies and cover ups from the very start.. no way!!! That is not from Jehovah! Sorry. This deluding influence can be applied to any religion!

Christian greetings, @goldie,

I'm arriving late to the discussion (I jumped in late in the discussion, actually), saw this post when I went back through it, and felt I'd share some of my experience to see if we share any common ground.

First, this sounds like some of my feelings I went through as I took a closer look at things after the accusations which I ran into online on Usenet and later Hourglass2. The freedom (not to mention personal responsibility and accountability that come as a result of said freedom, mind you!) to investigate and if it's truth, it's the truth was a big attraction for me as far as interest in Jehovah's Witnesses— of course, that was before I informed myself on the organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses.

I don't know if you have come across it yourself, but back in the waaaay back years of dial-up there was someone who posted under the name of the "Prominent Bethelite" and he shared this massive document listing every prediction and prophetic interpretation published by the Watchtower organization to be consumed by Jehovah's Witnesses, and anyone of the public ("interested ones") who received the literature-- often at the expense (by "contribution") of the brother or sister who believed it was more important to get said literature into the person's hands.

It was called, simply, The List.

And it does what it claims: it lists every published failure of the Watchtower organization. They have succeeded like no other religious organization when it comes to publishing their own failings in condemnation before the world. And they are completely blind to it. Or, they know it but justify it in their puny-minded way Man justifies nonsense before Jehovah God. I don't know their heart.

Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, I have to believe, are simply deceived, and as a result they elevate the Watchtower organization to the position it has before them as they move together as a group toward their expected future. A modern-day gold calf. And who was behind the golden calf in Moses' day, but the one appointed the care of the people while Moses was away— Aaron. Is it really any surprise to see the same thing happening with Jehovah's Witnesses during Christ's absence while he "prepares a place"— with the Governing Body playing the role of Aaron?

Nope.

But getting back to The List— as you noted, the entire history of false predictions and failed expectations is on record; the Watchtower organization is either blind to something that is obvious to us now (why wasn't it before, when we would've then made a different choice, had we known?)— or it is intrinsically evil.

Me, I've come to be of the conclusion that, like all things which begin with a Man's intentions, it may start out looking well, and the intentions sincere, but Jehovah hasn't allowed Man to build his attempts to reach where God resides since the Tower of Babel. At some point, it takes on a life of its own, and everyone becomes a cog in this machine, that it can perpetuate.

The support of the people becomes the subjection of the people to this... thing.

You went on to write, "That is not from Jehovah," and I agree with you. The Watchtower organization is not from Jehovah God. If it had been, it would have been perfect. The Law came from Jehovah God, and was perfect. Jesus came from Jehovah God, and was a perfect Man. The Watchtower organization didn't come from Jehovah God.

But, was it ever used by Jehovah God?

To that, I can still answer Yes. In spite of itself, Jehovah was and has been able to use the Watchtower organization to reach those He was searching for, as it were. A great many of Jehovah's Witnesses learned of Jehovah through the Watchtower organization's field ministry in spite of organizational requirement of 10 hours of service, a self-evident pharisaical tabulation, sure-- but Jehovah is perfectly capable of using imperfect things to accomplish His Purposes. And He did. That time may have passed, though, by some of what I'm seeing from the Watchtower organization now, especially when it comes to the door-to-door ministry as the primary means of reaching people. . . no more.

And I think I agree with you saying, "This deluding influence can be applied to any religion," and that's because we're talking about religion. It's religion that mystically takes on a life of its own, and subjects people to itself in order to perpetuate itself.

I don't know of anyone who sets out to start a religion. They just think they're onto something that everyone else seems to be incapable or unwilling to go along with, and they naturally seek out others to join them in their course. And things go well, for a time. Until it all takes on a life of its own.

The Watchtower organization is a religion. Maybe it wasn't to start, but it is now. And it's a publishing corporation, as well. But convince me that Jehovah cares one bit about the very thing that the men in charge of this religious empire hold dear-- their Tower of Babel.

He dispensed with the Jewish leadership and all the rest, Temple and all, when it no longer had any use in His Purpose in 70CE. Why would it come as a surprise to anyone for Him to do so with the Watchtower organization? Crumple it up and toss it in the bin. Done and done.

It's never been about Temples with Jehovah. It's been about people. He has no desire to be found in temples -- or man-made organizations. He desires to be found in our heart, dwelling with us. We have become a living temple. (2 Corinthians 6:16)

Since Jehovah will dispense with the Watchtower organization in His Time, and preserve those He brought to Himself through that organization, one can hate the Watchtower organization's wickedness and yet continue to love those Jehovah has drawn to Himself while using the organization (Confer Genesis 50:20) in the same way first-century Christians in their rejection of the organization in place for the practice of the Jewish religion (Temple cult, etc), but love for those who were dominated by the religious leaders of Israel.

And compassion, like Jesus:

And having seen the crowds, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were wearied and cast away, as sheep not having a shepherd. —Matthew 9:36 Berean Standard Bible

Submitted for perusal and consideration,
Timothy
a believer.
 
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Jesus STARTS to judge the house of God….then others who obviously are not of the house of God but the world and/ or those who do not obey the good news of God.
You're getting the order right but not the details.

It can be said that Jesus and or Jehovah brings on the judgment of his house, but in reality, it is by means of the 8th king that the judgment takes place. It is said that God puts it into the hearts of the 10 kings to carry out his thought to give their power to the beast. Jehovah does this because he uses the beast (8th king) as his means for the judgment/HOT on his house/the world. (He used Babylon for his judgment on Jerusalem.)

So, when the 8th king comes to power and the choice becomes apparent to submit or not, that is how his house (world) begins to be judged first. Who will take the mark and who will refuse. Those that refuse the mark will be taken captive and or killed during that 42-months. That is the trampling period.

Then after the 42-month judgment period/HOT Jesus comes (Armageddon) and the judgment is now upon those (goats) that did not obey the warning to not take the mark. They will be killed/cut off, and the righteous ones (sheep) the ones that did obey so did not take the mark will be the GC.

_________________________ (Examine the following Scriptures to see if the things I said above are so.) ___________________________

[1 Peter 4:17A For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God.]

[10 ... the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.]

[12 “The ten horns that you saw mean ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings for one hour with the wild beast.13 These have one thought, so they give their power and authority to the wild beast. 17 For God put it into their hearts to carry out his thought, yes, to carry out their one thought by giving their kingdom to the wild beast, until the words of God will have been accomplished.]

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.]

[6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water. 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb.12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”]

____________________________________________________________________

[1 Peter 4:17B what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?]

[19 And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the one seated on the horse and against his army. 20 And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who worship its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulfur. 21 But the rest were killed off with the long sword that proceeded out of the mouth of the one seated on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.]<> [7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.]

[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands.” 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.]
 
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Hi Lady blue, sorry I'm just seeing this through all the notifications. But just to clarify, yes, I do believe Jehovah God can use anyone at any given time to accomplish his will. There's no denying that. Has he used the watchtower? Sorry, but I'm just not seeing it anymore. The whole Watchtower movement was founded on fundamental false prophecy spoken in the name of God.
DUET. 13 and 18 both show false prophets are deserving of death. They have claimed since their inception to be delivering, channeling absolute truth from God, when it is a lie!! The news they are spreading that Jesus is now ruling is a delusion as pointed out by rk, a satanic lie! 1879, 1914, 1919, 1925, 1975, the overlapping generation. I'm sorry, but at what point was there ever truth? At what point were they ever faithful? My understanding is there was never a point from 1879- 2024 where I could see Jehovah and Jesus approving the watchtower as his "exclusive organization." Jehovah is a God of TRUTH, and I find it very hard to believe that he would choose this type of satanic deception to spread his "TRUTH".
A spring does not cause the fresh water and the bitter water to bubble out of the same opening, does it? (James 3:11)
There's so much more... too much to even write here. Have I always felt this way? Absolutely not! It's devastating really. It deeply saddens me to find all this out, but after researching the org from its inception, there's no denying the real truth.
It can get confusing. That is because Jehovah has allowed for an operation of Satan to go to those who know the truth. Do you know the truth? I am pretty sure you do. Where did you learn it? The same place we all did. But how can it be true if the leaders are liars? Well, where was the apostle Judas? Right next to Christ and his apostles. I have spent the last 20-some years of my life trying to explain these things to JWs. What did the apostle say? "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you."


 
It was great for us. At the time we lived in wine country so after book study the wine came out👅
I missed the book studies as well. Being in a small group had its advantages. We had the chance to show hospitality by preparing snacks, coffee or wine if that was available.
We also got to know others better and give each other the attention that was needed. We were also able to help others that could be helped to go out in the ministry on certain days.

My guess is that the WT didn’t like it because it gave us a chance to share our personal views, getting too close to particular ones. What do you think?
 
I missed the book studies as well. Being in a small group had its advantages. We had the chance to show hospitality by preparing snacks, coffee or wine if that was available.
We also got to know others better and give each other the attention that was needed. We were also able to help others that could be helped to go out in the ministry on certain days.

My guess is that the WT didn’t like it because it gave us a chance to share our personal views, getting too close to particular ones. What do you think?
That’s insightful Ladyblue. The fabric started to crumble after the demise of the book study groups.
I used to genuinely look fwd to the fellowship allthewhile studying the revelation book yet again😅 It was a great venue and like I imagine the early Christian cong set up. The congregation today is way different to those days in my opinion.
 
That’s insightful Ladyblue. The fabric started to crumble after the demise of the book study groups.
I used to genuinely look fwd to the fellowship allthewhile studying the revelation book yet again😅 It was a great venue and like I imagine the early Christian cong set up. The congregation today is way different to those days in my opinion.
I remember thinking that after the pandemic started that we would meet in smaller groups for all of our meetings. Some religious groups around the world were doing this. But not the witnesses…NO we were in total lockdown for two years. I also thought how exciting it would be to find so many people at home and be able to talk to. Buf NO! the GB said it was too dangerous. Couldn’t even stand out with the cart!
So they went right against Jesus’s command. Too bad for them.
 
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But they used to be so awe-inspiring - for example the drama of the Exodus “Beware of Losing Faith by drawing away from Jehovah” Listening to this still gives me goosebumps today.

I remember this drama. I use to listen to it many times as my son who was very young at the time loved listening to it. So awe inspiring.
 
But exactly WHY do the GB feel the need to "keep tabs on us"? If they have Jehovah's favour then surely they don't need to keep tabs on anyone? They just needed to concentrate on doing Jehovah's work..
One, they need to keep tabs on us to make sure we’re not exposing their lies. And two, as far as doing Jehovah’s work actually they really stopped that in March 2020. Now, it’s just cart witnessing for the most part. In their articles I don’t read where they stress it anymore. It’s more about not listening to apostate lies and misinformation. Of course they have to throw in something spiritual once in a while.
 
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I was the one who expressed impatience with his 'walls of text', not Melinda.
A watcher! I really don’t mind people moaning over my “walls of text”. I take it in good spirit. I simply write from the joy of faith that grows in me and wish to share what I find. We never were given the choice to share in watchtower, only repeat. I do not ever, ask anyone to read what I write or assume my thoughts worthy of being taken note of. They often are not as there frequently show me here. I just write. I always have done - books, diaries, thesis, I have written since I was at school, and my walls are lined with non-fiction from Plato, to Freud, to great war diaries, to 16thC cook books. I have only ever read one book of fiction - the lord of the rings trilogy, fifty six year ago when I was bored in Holland. It’s not difficult to be bored in Holland and they were desperate times and so desperate measures were required to remain sane. I live in a small space within the spectral plague of autism along with my equally affected crazy and isolated children and though I cannot ever hope to understand the common and somewhat superficial game-playing-face-down-in-a-phone civilisation you guys experience today (not necessarily personally) I have to peer into it to survive it, it seems. But you guys are not ‘normal’ to me either, but I don’t blame you for it! I just wonder how on earth some can only glimpse at times the depth of creation and why others do not seek an explanation to all the laws of physics that Jehovah has created out of nothing - why few investigate why “love” is the prime element in the function of Jehovah’s Holy Spirit and how this effects the entire spectrum of His attributes - as He tells us it does! If one substitutes the overworked word “love” for “the mechanics of existence”, then it might sound more appealing to the enquiring mind in this awful world we live in.

For instance, the effect that love imposes upon justice is the very means by which humanity will survive the wrath of Jehovah. Why there is so much angst and argument over definition is simply because the greater expression of the attributes of Jehovah and their application is limited by our own superficial reasoning. We should therefore seek to ask “why?” what is said, and discuss that point, and simply add to the possibilities in outcomes. We would benefit from that, right? There are few areas of non-compromise in the bible that must be adhered to and Jehovah is emphatic in pointing those out, but as for the rest, it is the variety in freedom to praise Jehovah that is significant - we do not have to be correct except where we should be. But that too can be amicable if we recognise that obligation to truth. It requires yet another act of acceptance demanded by love upon our understanding of the attribute. I do not think it’s a good idea to block others off either, because negotiation is far better than isolation and improves our levels of tolerance and introspection and inclusion.
 
Christian greetings, @goldie,

I'm arriving late to the discussion (I jumped in late in the discussion, actually), saw this post when I went back through it, and felt I'd share some of my experience to see if we share any common ground.

First, this sounds like some of my feelings I went through as I took a closer look at things after the accusations which I ran into online on Usenet and later Hourglass2. The freedom (not to mention personal responsibility and accountability that come as a result of said freedom, mind you!) to investigate and if it's truth, it's the truth was a big attraction for me as far as interest in Jehovah's Witnesses— of course, that was before I informed myself on the organization behind Jehovah's Witnesses.

I don't know if you have come across it yourself, but back in the waaaay back years of dial-up there was someone who posted under the name of the "Prominent Bethelite" and he shared this massive document listing every prediction and prophetic interpretation published by the Watchtower organization to be consumed by Jehovah's Witnesses, and anyone of the public ("interested ones") who received the literature-- often at the expense (by "contribution") of the brother or sister who believed it was more important to get said literature into the person's hands.

It was called, simply, The List.

And it does what it claims: it lists every published failure of the Watchtower organization. They have succeeded like no other religious organization when it comes to publishing their own failings in condemnation before the world. And they are completely blind to it. Or, they know it but justify it in their puny-minded way Man justifies nonsense before Jehovah God. I don't know their heart.

Jehovah's Witnesses, on the other hand, I have to believe, are simply deceived, and as a result they elevate the Watchtower organization to the position it has before them as they move together as a group toward their expected future. A modern-day gold calf. And who was behind the golden calf in Moses' day, but the one appointed the care of the people while Moses was away— Aaron. Is it really any surprise to see the same thing happening with Jehovah's Witnesses during Christ's absence while he "prepares a place"— with the Governing Body playing the role of Aaron?

Nope.

But getting back to The List— as you noted, the entire history of false predictions and failed expectations is on record; the Watchtower organization is either blind to something that is obvious to us now (why wasn't it before, when we would've then made a different choice, had we known?)— or it is intrinsically evil.

Me, I've come to be of the conclusion that, like all things which begin with a Man's intentions, it may start out looking well, and the intentions sincere, but Jehovah hasn't allowed Man to build his attempts to reach where God resides since the Tower of Babel. At some point, it takes on a life of its own, and everyone becomes a cog in this machine, that it can perpetuate.

The support of the people becomes the subjection of the people to this... thing.

You went on to write, "That is not from Jehovah," and I agree with you. The Watchtower organization is not from Jehovah God. If it had been, it would have been perfect. The Law came from Jehovah God, and was perfect. Jesus came from Jehovah God, and was a perfect Man. The Watchtower organization didn't come from Jehovah God.

But, was it ever used by Jehovah God?

To that, I can still answer Yes. In spite of itself, Jehovah was and has been able to use the Watchtower organization to reach those He was searching for, as it were. A great many of Jehovah's Witnesses learned of Jehovah through the Watchtower organization's field ministry in spite of organizational requirement of 10 hours of service, a self-evident pharisaical tabulation, sure-- but Jehovah is perfectly capable of using imperfect things to accomplish His Purposes. And He did. That time may have passed, though, by some of what I'm seeing from the Watchtower organization now, especially when it comes to the door-to-door ministry as the primary means of reaching people. . . no more.

And I think I agree with you saying, "This deluding influence can be applied to any religion," and that's because we're talking about religion. It's religion that mystically takes on a life of its own, and subjects people to itself in order to perpetuate itself.

I don't know of anyone who sets out to start a religion. They just think they're onto something that everyone else seems to be incapable or unwilling to go along with, and they naturally seek out others to join them in their course. And things go well, for a time. Until it all takes on a life of its own.

The Watchtower organization is a religion. Maybe it wasn't to start, but it is now. And it's a publishing corporation, as well. But convince me that Jehovah cares one bit about the very thing that the men in charge of this religious empire hold dear-- their Tower of Babel.

He dispensed with the Jewish leadership and all the rest, Temple and all, when it no longer had any use in His Purpose in 70CE. Why would it come as a surprise to anyone for Him to do so with the Watchtower organization? Crumple it up and toss it in the bin. Done and done.

It's never been about Temples with Jehovah. It's been about people. He has no desire to be found in temples -- or man-made organizations. He desires to be found in our heart, dwelling with us. We have become a living temple. (2 Corinthians 6:16)

Since Jehovah will dispense with the Watchtower organization in His Time, and preserve those He brought to Himself through that organization, one can hate the Watchtower organization's wickedness and yet continue to love those Jehovah has drawn to Himself while using the organization (Confer Genesis 50:20) in the same way first-century Christians in their rejection of the organization in place for the practice of the Jewish religion (Temple cult, etc), but love for those who were dominated by the religious leaders of Israel.

And compassion, like Jesus:

And having seen the crowds, He was moved with compassion for them, because they were wearied and cast away, as sheep not having a shepherd. —Matthew 9:36 Berean Standard Bible

Submitted for perusal and consideration,
Timothy
a believer.
Thank you very much brother for your kind patient reply. I enjoyed your comment very much and the time you took to answer me without harsh criticism, accusations, blockings lol. Truly a mature Christian response. I appreciate your presence here. Thanks again🙂
 
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It can get confusing. That is because Jehovah has allowed for an operation of Satan to go to those who know the truth. Do you know the truth? I am pretty sure you do. Where did you learn it? The same place we all did. But how can it be true if the leaders are liars? Well, where was the apostle Judas? Right next to Christ and his apostles. I have spent the last 20-some years of my life trying to explain these things to JWs. What did the apostle say? "However, there also came to be false prophets among the people, as there will also be false teachers among you."


Thank you br. King. I appreciate your kind, patient reply as well. I will watch and consider your videos, and you're absolutely correct it is very confusing and I'm just trying to put the pieces together. BTW I am not trying to start my own religion here as some claim..lol 🤦‍♀️. I'm pretty much disgusted with religion, period! Thanks again.
 
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