2300 or 1150?

Cristo

Well-known member
Posting under the 'examining the scriptures' thread seemed the best place for this, although it seems it has become more of a 'daily text' thread. Nevertheless, the question of 2300 or 1150 certainly leads us to examining the scriptures more in depth. I hope this helps clear up than cause more confusion.


Tamid

The scripture in question is:

(Da 8:14) “. . .So he said to me: “Until two thousand three hundred evenings [and] mornings; and [the] holy place will certainly be brought into its right condition.””​
Whether the 2300 days is specific to actual days, or whether the 2300 'evenings and mornings' was meant by Daniel to refer to two sacrifices a day, morning and evening will be addressed in this post. The latter essentially halves the 2300 to 1150 days, being there was a sacrifice in the morning, and a sacrifice in the evening. For those who adhere to the latter perspective of 1150 days, some questions must be reconciled first before this reasoning should be considered as true.

The daily sacrifice requirement is found here:
(Ex 29:38-42)38 “And this is what you will offer upon the altar: young rams each a year old, two a day constantly. 39 And you will offer the one young ram in the morning, and you will offer the other young ram between the two evenings. 40 And a tenth part of an e´phah measure of fine flour moistened with the fourth of a hin of beaten oil, and a drink offering of the fourth of a hin of wine, will go for the first young ram. 41 And you will offer the second young ram between the two evenings. With a grain offering like that of the morning and with a drink offering like its, you will render it as a restful odor, an offering made by fire to Jehovah. 42 It is a constant burnt offering throughout YOUR generations at the entrance of the tent of meeting before Jehovah, where I shall present myself to YOU people to speak to you there.”​

This requirement for a daily sacrifice was known as the 'tamid'(click for definition) and was a continual offering to Jehovah. It is the technical term which designates the double offering of a morning and evening that is offered daily. It was one offering, not two separate offerings. Numbers helps us see more clearly what is being said.

(Nu 28:3-4)3 “And you must say to them, ‘This is the offering made by fire that YOU will present to Jehovah: two sound year-old male lambs a day as a burnt offering constantly. 4 The one male lamb you will render up in the morning, and the other male lamb you will render up between the two evenings,”​

The double sacrifice, morning and evening, counted as one offering. Notice the scripture describes the two lambs in the morning and evening as 'the offering', singular, not 'offerings' plural. Also note that this is a constant daily sacrifice, splitting it up into two sacrifices would not be a constant, but would split it up into two separate offerings. Therefore, using this understanding of halving the 2300 into two, based off of two sacrifices a day, is unjustified, being that they were part of the same daily offering.


Evening and Morning

Referring back to the prophecy, Daniel uses the expression 'evenings and mornings' in reference to the 2300 days. However, the daily burnt offering as described above as the Tamid, was always from 'morning to evening'. If one were to go through all the scriptures regarding offerings, specifically the daily sacrifice, they would see that it was described as from the 'morning to the evening'. Certainly Daniel knew this when he penned the prophecy, as did Jehovah who made the law requirement, and yet the prophecy at Daniel 8:14 uses the term 'evenings and mornings'.

Do the scriptures provide us with an answer that fit more accurately with the phrase 'evening and morning'? In Genesis we are indeed offered this expression which helps us to more clearly see whether the 2300 days should be viewed as actual days, or cut in half as some suggest.
(Ge 1:5) “. . .And God began calling the light Day, but the darkness he called Night. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a first day.”
(Ge 1:8) “. . .And God began to call the expanse Heaven. And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a second day.”
(Ge 1:12-13) “. . .Then God saw that [it was] good. 13 And there came to be evening and there came to be morning, a third day.”

In penning the prophecy, was Daniel, or rather Jehovah, using the inverted phrase 'evenings and mornings' as a way to help us identify from Genesis that the 2300 evenings and mornings were actual days? Evidence seems to suggest that this is true. In fact, nowhere in the scriptures, other than Genesis and Daniel 8:14,26, is a day designated in this way from evening to morning. All other occurrences use the regular 'morning to evening' or 'day to night' formula. This would only lead us to believe that full days are being referred to, not a half day.

Therefore based off of this information the 2300 days on the chart shall remain as full days and not 1150 half days.


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Driven

Well-known member
W
Posting under the 'examining the scriptures' thread seemed the best place for this, although it seems it has become more of a 'daily text' thread. Nevertheless, the question of 2300 or 1150 certainly leads us to examining the scriptures more in depth. I hope this helps clear up than cause more confusion.


Tamid

The scripture in question is:


Whether the 2300 days is specific to actual days, or whether the 2300 'evenings and mornings' was meant by Daniel to refer to two sacrifices a day, morning and evening will be addressed in this post. The latter essentially halves the 2300 to 1150 days, being there was a sacrifice in the morning, and a sacrifice in the evening. For those who adhere to the latter perspective of 1150 days, some questions must be reconciled first before this reasoning should be considered as true.

The daily sacrifice requirement is found here:


This requirement for a daily sacrifice was known as the 'tamid'(click for definition) and was a continual offering to Jehovah. It is the technical term which designates the double offering of a morning and evening that is offered daily. It was one offering, not two separate offerings. Numbers helps us see more clearly what is being said.



The double sacrifice, morning and evening, counted as one offering. Notice the scripture describes the two lambs in the morning and evening as 'the offering', singular, not 'offerings' plural. Also note that this is a constant daily sacrifice, splitting it up into two sacrifices would not be a constant, but would split it up into two separate offerings. Therefore, using this understanding of halving the 2300 into two, based off of two sacrifices a day, is unjustified, being that they were part of the same daily offering.


Evening and Morning

Referring back to the prophecy, Daniel uses the expression 'evenings and mornings' in reference to the 2300 days. However, the daily burnt offering as described above as the Tamid, was always from 'morning to evening'. If one were to go through all the scriptures regarding offerings, specifically the daily sacrifice, they would see that it was described as from the 'morning to the evening'. Certainly Daniel knew this when he penned the prophecy, as did Jehovah who made the law requirement, and yet the prophecy at Daniel 8:14 uses the term 'evenings and mornings'.

Do the scriptures provide us with an answer that fit more accurately with the phrase 'evening and morning'? In Genesis we are indeed offered this expression which helps us to more clearly see whether the 2300 days should be viewed as actual days, or cut in half as some suggest.


In penning the prophecy, was Daniel, or rather Jehovah, using the inverted phrase 'evenings and mornings' as a way to help us identify from Genesis that the 2300 evenings and mornings were actual days? Evidence seems to suggest that this is true. In fact, nowhere in the scriptures, other than Genesis and Daniel 8:14,26, is a day designated in this way from evening to morning. All other occurrences use the regular 'morning to evening' or 'day to night' formula. This would only lead us to believe that full days are being referred to, not a half day.

Therefore based off of this information the 2300 days on the chart shall remain as full days and not 1150 half days.


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Awesome explanation. Thank you for the research.
 

LifeLearning

Well-known member
For those who adhere to the latter perspective of 1150 days, some questions must be reconciled first before this reasoning should be considered as true.
You set this up from the outset concluding the answer you want to present. That tells me that you intend to build on this. The problem is that while it might seem reasonable to go along with your assertion here, building on it to make further conclusions means being off by orders of magnitude by the time you conclude even one more thing based on this.

My point is that this is how the watchtower went off the rails in the first place. The whole assertion of the 7 times was illogical and a stumbling block from the beginning for me. It would have been better for them to just preach the good news (the weighty things) rather than force feed a contrived mess about the 7 times, calling into question the legitimacy of the entire organization.
 

Cristo

Well-known member
You set this up from the outset concluding the answer you want to present. That tells me that you intend to build on this. The problem is that while it might seem reasonable to go along with your assertion here, building on it to make further conclusions means being off by orders of magnitude by the time you conclude even one more thing based on this.

My point is that this is how the watchtower went off the rails in the first place. The whole assertion of the 7 times was illogical and a stumbling block from the beginning for me. It would have been better for them to just preach the good news (the weighty things) rather than force feed a contrived mess about the 7 times, calling into question the legitimacy of the entire organization.
I’m not sure what you mean LL. As you know I recently created a chart, and the 2300 days was something that was brought up by another member. I did some research and presented it in the above post. To be honest I wasn’t sure which way I leaned, 2300 vs 1150, in fact I almost drew the chart up using the 1150 number. However since Daniel used the 2300 I felt i would start with that, and go from there. There is sound reasoning in the conclusion of the 2300 days being days, and not 1150.

As for the Watchtower, they went off the rails on so many ways when it came to prophecy, but why let that stumble you? Seriously, don’t let it, just learn from it. The very fact that you saw it was illogical shows that you have discernment, I want you to see that.

I don’t know you, but it sounds like you are still upset with the WT for things, as many here are. I disassociated from the org over a decade ago, and I would just recommend to make sure of all things (1Thes 5:21), regardless of who says them. You are responsible for your own relationship with Jehovah, nobody else. I’m sure Robert K. doesn’t expect us to just take his word on everything he says, at least I hope not. I certainly hope after anybody comes out of the WT they would have learned by now what happens when you do that very thing.

Thank you for your concern as well regarding building on the 2300 days, and that going any further means being off by magnitudes. You are probably right, but at least that part of Daniels prophecy is much clearer for me now.
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
I’m sure Robert K. doesn’t expect us to just take his word on everything he says, at least I hope not. I certainly hope after anybody comes out of the WT they would have learned by now what happens when you do that very thing.
It is enough for me that a few JW's come to recognize that fallacy of 1914. The fact that persons like yourself are looking at these prophecies with fresh eyes means mission accomplished for me. For example, the WT claims the 2,300 days were fulfilled back during the Second World War when the Watchtower's board of directors made some trivial changes to the Society's charter and thereby brought the holy place into its right condition. :ROFLMAO:

Like Jeremiah, my mission has been twofold, to tear down and uproot (Watchtower delusions) and to plant and build (platform for the future). When it comes to Daniel's prophecy the easy part is overturning the WT's interpretation because much of it is nonsensical. The hard part is peering into the future and all the more so due to the fact that the prophecy is sealed up until the time of the end. And, again, contrary to the WT the time of the end has not begun, but I expect it to begin any day now.
 

w_stone

Active member
At the time Daniel wrote this Prophecy we're the Jews making Two sacrifice daily?No. Our Christian under the law? No.The morning and evening are about what happens.That would be that the kingdom is bought to it's right condition.When does that occur?Its glad you heavens and those who reside there but woe for the earth.This is after the war in heaven.This occurs after the constant feature is take-away The sacrifice of the lips.(not letter writing)If indeed if that has occurred 2019/2020 .Then if the length is 1150 day.Those days our fast approaching a end.2023/2024.We will have to wait and see.
 

Driven

Well-known member
At the time Daniel wrote this Prophecy we're the Jews making Two sacrifice daily?No. Our Christian under the law? No.The morning and evening are about what happens.That would be that the kingdom is bought to it's right condition.When does that occur?Its glad you heavens and those who reside there but woe for the earth.This is after the war in heaven.This occurs after the constant feature is take-away The sacrifice of the lips.(not letter writing)If indeed if that has occurred 2019/2020 .Then if the length is 1150 day.Those days our fast approaching a end.2023/2024.We will have to wait and see.
Great conversation to have and it really gets the brain lit up!
 

Brother potato

Well-known member
It is enough for me that a few JW's come to recognize that fallacy of 1914. The fact that persons like yourself are looking at these prophecies with fresh eyes means mission accomplished for me. For example, the WT claims the 2,300 days were fulfilled back during the Second World War when the Watchtower's board of directors made some trivial changes to the Society's charter and thereby brought the holy place into its right condition. :ROFLMAO:

Like Jeremiah, my mission has been twofold, to tear down and uproot (Watchtower delusions) and to plant and build (platform for the future). When it comes to Daniel's prophecy the easy part is overturning the WT's interpretation because much of it is nonsensical. The hard part is peering into the future and all the more so due to the fact that the prophecy is sealed up until the time of the end. And, again, contrary to the WT the time of the end has not begun, but I expect it to begin any day now.
i was gonna say this Robert. You always beat me to the comment.
 

LifeLearning

Well-known member
I’m not sure what you mean LL. As you know I recently created a chart, and the 2300 days was something that was brought up by another member. I did some research and presented it in the above post. To be honest I wasn’t sure which way I leaned, 2300 vs 1150, in fact I almost drew the chart up using the 1150 number. However since Daniel used the 2300 I felt i would start with that, and go from there. There is sound reasoning in the conclusion of the 2300 days being days, and not 1150.

As for the Watchtower, they went off the rails on so many ways when it came to prophecy, but why let that stumble you? Seriously, don’t let it, just learn from it. The very fact that you saw it was illogical shows that you have discernment, I want you to see that.

I don’t know you, but it sounds like you are still upset with the WT for things, as many here are. I disassociated from the org over a decade ago, and I would just recommend to make sure of all things (1Thes 5:21), regardless of who says them. You are responsible for your own relationship with Jehovah, nobody else. I’m sure Robert K. doesn’t expect us to just take his word on everything he says, at least I hope not. I certainly hope after anybody comes out of the WT they would have learned by now what happens when you do that very thing.

Thank you for your concern as well regarding building on the 2300 days, and that going any further means being off by magnitudes. You are probably right, but at least that part of Daniels prophecy is much clearer for me now.
Your reasonable response is appreciated Cristo. Bible study and looking into the meaning of prophesy is a powerful and wonderful thing, and I do not take it lightly.

No one should accept a conclusion of a matter without proving it out for themselves. That is because each conclusion builds for us a foundation of understanding. If things are too difficult for us to understand they are probably wrong: i.e. in error.

Yes, I am upset with the watchtower over some things. And completely agree that I am responsible for my relationship with Jehovah and Christ. Learning mercy over judgment is taking some time.
 

SeaGull

Well-known member
You are responsible for your own relationship with Jehovah, nobody else. I’m sure Robert K. doesn’t expect us to just take his word on everything he says, at least I hope not. I certainly hope after anybody comes out of the WT they would have learned by now what happens when you do that very thing.
It is enough for me that a few JW's come to recognize that fallacy of 1914. The fact that persons like yourself are looking at these prophecies with fresh eyes means mission accomplished for me. For example, the WT claims the 2,300 days were fulfilled back during the Second World War when the Watchtower's board of directors made some trivial changes to the Society's charter and thereby brought the holy place into its right condition. :ROFLMAO:

Like Jeremiah, my mission has been twofold, to tear down and uproot (Watchtower delusions) and to plant and build (platform for the future). When it comes to Daniel's prophecy the easy part is overturning the WT's interpretation because much of it is nonsensical. The hard part is peering into the future and all the more so due to the fact that the prophecy is sealed up until the time of the end. And, again, contrary to the WT the time of the end has not begun, but I expect it to begin any day now.
Thank you both! Very refreshing, soothing, comments! 🙂🪴🪴🙂
There is a searching that we all have. And a lot of it is not only scriptural , but inside of our own selves.

It really is just between us and Jehovah God,
so it doesn't matter if we are in a congregation, group, forum,
- have a lot of friends, a big family, or none at all.
I just don't want to jump from one situation, - into another, simply because I've had deep losses, and don't have all the answers.
I know I need time, and I believe Jehovah God will make things understandable to even severely damaged sheep. - And there are many.
I just want to 'visit' and 'observe' , while allowing Jehovah to be the one to do the healing.
It's a very personal experience, when you are recovering from spiritual and emotional injury. Personally, If I can just go outside on a quiet night, and feel all the " foreverness" (that's what I call it) - from Jehovah God and be satisfied that I don't have to have all the answers right now, it can help me heal.
So I appreciate, very much, the opportunity to watch and listen, and read some of the well written articles from the watchman website, without feeling pressured to be 'one of the family' or to ' join up' so to speak.. 🙂 thanks for letting me talk [ramble] ....
 
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