4 horses of Revelation are not literal occurrences

Joel

Joel

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“And I saw, and look!...white horse…fiery-colored horse…black horse…pale horse…” - Revelation 6:2-8. What do the horses represent? Hints - Revelation 1:1 and James 4:1.
 
Joel said:
“And I saw, and look!...white horse…fiery-colored horse…black horse…pale horse…” - Revelation 6:2-8. What do the horses represent? Hints - Revelation 1:1 and James 4:1.
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Can’t see your logic here brother. I personally believe otherwise.
Could you shed some more light on why you believe this?
 
This is an instance where Jesus interprets the prophecy for us. The second seal brings the horseman of war. The third is food shortage. The fourth is Death, including deadly plagues. When questioned by his apostles, Jesus foretold there would be wars, food shortages, and pestilence.

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War, Famine and Pestilence – the Coming Apocalypse

Tuesday, September 27 The proconsul . . . became a believer.—Acts 13:12. Because the Jews were so widely dispersed throughout the Roman world, many non-Jews became familiar with the Hebrew Scriptures. They learned that there is only one true God and that those who serve him are
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Then there will be great tribulation

QUESTION: Jehovah’s Witnesses have long understood the facets of the sign of Christ’s presence to be a description of conditions that would precede the great tribulation. My question is, are the various facets of the sign that Jesus describes merely a description of the great tribulation, rather...
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What Does the Bible Say about Pandemics?

JW.org has a fresh banner article entitled What Does the Bible Say About Pandemics? They pose the question: Has God Ever Punished People with Sickness? They then proceed to supply the answer: The Bible reports a few occasions when God used sickness to
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What is the difference between fleshly nation of Israel and spiritual nation of Israel?
 
I was wondering if this would pop up here. I thought not but let's see where this leads. There is a new sect of Christianity who are saying that the great tribulation will not happen. Some are already saying that Armageddon has already happened. I mentioned this the other day in another thread.
We will see the tribulation and Armageddon, in that order. Anything else is heresy. The reasons are explained in scripture by the prophets, Jesus and the Apostles. If the word of Jesus is not good enough then why bother?
 

TRIBULATION​

The Greek word thliʹpsis, usually rendered “tribulation,” basically means distress, affliction, or suffering resulting from the pressures of circumstances. It is used with reference to the affliction associated with childbirth (Joh 16:21), persecution (Mt 24:9; Ac 11:19; 20:23; 2Co 1:8; Heb 10:33; Re 1:9), imprisonment (Re 2:10), poverty and other adversities common to orphans and widows (Jas 1:27), famine (Ac 7:11), and punishment for wrongdoing (Ro 2:9; Re 2:22). The “tribulation” mentioned at 2 Corinthians 2:4 apparently refers to the distress felt by the apostle Paul because of the wrong conduct of the Christians at Corinth and because he had to correct them with severity.

Marriage Brings Tribulation in the Flesh. When recommending singleness as the better course, the apostle Paul observed: “But even if you did marry, you would commit no sin. . . . However, those who do will have tribulation in their flesh.” (1Co 7:28) Marriage is attended by certain anxieties and cares for husband, wife, and children. (1Co 7:32-35) Sickness can bring burdens and stresses on the family. For Christians, persecution may arise; families may even be driven from their homes. Fathers may find it hard to provide life’s necessities for their households. Parents or children may be separated by imprisonment, suffer torture at the hands of persecutors, or even lose their lives.

Faithfulness Under Tribulation. Tribulation in the form of persecution can have a weakening effect upon the faith of an individual. Christ Jesus, in his illustration of the sower, indicated that certain persons would actually be stumbled on account of tribulation or persecution. (Mt 13:21; Mr 4:17) Being aware of this danger, the apostle Paul was very much concerned about the newly formed congregation at Thessalonica. Those associated with that congregation had embraced Christianity under much tribulation (1Th 1:6; compare Ac 17:1, 5-10) and continued to experience such. The apostle therefore sent Timothy to strengthen and comfort them, “that no one might be swayed by these tribulations.” (1Th 3:1-3, 5) When Timothy brought back news that the Thessalonians had remained firm in the faith, Paul was greatly comforted. (1Th 3:6, 7) Doubtless the apostle’s efforts in preparing them to expect tribulation also helped the Thessalonians to continue to be faithful servants of God.—1Th 3:4; compare Joh 16:33; Ac 14:22.

Although tribulation is unpleasant, the Christian can exult while enduring it, since he knows that faithfulness is approved by God and will ultimately lead to the realization of his grand hope. (Ro 5:3-5; 12:12) The tribulation itself is but momentary and light in comparison with the everlasting glory to be received for remaining faithful. (2Co 4:17, 18) The Christian can also rest assured that God’s loyal love will never waver, whatever tribulation may come upon the faithful believer.—Ro 8:35-39.

In writing to the Corinthians, the apostle Paul pointed to yet other factors that would help the Christian to endure tribulation. He stated: “Blessed be the God . . . of all comfort, who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those in any sort of tribulation through the comfort with which we ourselves are being comforted by God. . . . Now whether we are in tribulation, it is for your comfort and salvation; or whether we are being comforted, it is for your comfort that operates to make you endure the same sufferings that we also suffer.” (2Co 1:3-6) The precious promises of God, the help of his holy spirit, and his answering the prayers of those experiencing tribulation are a source of comfort to Christians. On the basis of their own experience, they can encourage and comfort still others; their example of faithfulness and expressions of conviction inspire fellow Christians likewise to remain faithful.

Paul himself appreciated the comfort given to him by fellow believers as he endured tribulations. He commended the Philippian Christians for this: “You acted well in becoming sharers with me in my tribulation.” (Php 4:14) Being genuinely interested in Paul, who was imprisoned at Rome, they helped him to bear his tribulation by assisting him materially.—Php 4:15-20.

There are times, however, when certain persons become fearful on account of the tribulation experienced by others. With this in mind, Paul encouraged the Ephesian Christians: “I ask you not to give up on account of these tribulations of mine in your behalf, for these mean glory for you.” (Eph 3:13) The persecutions or tribulations experienced by Paul resulted from his ministering to the Ephesians and others. For this reason he could speak of them as tribulations ‘in their behalf.’ His faithful endurance under such tribulations meant “glory” for the Ephesian Christians, since it demonstrated that what they had as Christians (including God’s sure promises and their precious relationship with Jehovah God and his Son Christ Jesus) was worth enduring for. (Compare Col 1:24.) If Paul, as an apostle, had given up, it would have meant disgrace for the congregation. Others could have been stumbled.—Compare 2Co 6:3, 4.

The “Great Tribulation.” When answering the question of his disciples concerning the sign of his presence and the conclusion of the system of things, Jesus mentioned a “great tribulation such as has not occurred since the world’s beginning until now, no, nor will occur again.” (Mt 24:3, 21) As a comparison of Matthew 24:15-22 with Luke 21:20-24 reveals, this had initial reference to a tribulation to come upon Jerusalem. The fulfillment came in 70 C.E., when the city was besieged by the Roman armies under General Titus. This resulted in severe famine conditions and much loss of life. The Jewish historian Josephus relates that 1,100,000 Jews died or were killed, whereas 97,000 survived and were taken into captivity. The temple was completely destroyed. Contrary to the wish of the Roman commander Titus, Roman soldiers set the temple itself on fire. According to Josephus, this took place in the same month and on the same day that the Babylonians had burned the former temple on this site. (The Jewish War, VI, 249-270 [iv, 5-8], 420 [ix, 3]; 2Ki 25:8, 9) The temple destroyed by the Romans has never been rebuilt. Such a “great tribulation” has not occurred again or been repeated upon Jerusalem. Nevertheless, Biblical evidence indicates that the tribulation upon Jerusalem in 70 C.E. pointed forward to a far greater tribulation, one affecting all nations.

Jesus continued his prophecy by describing events that would occur during the centuries after Jerusalem’s destruction. (Mt 24:23-28; Mr 13:21-23) Then, at Matthew 24:29, he added that “immediately after the tribulation of those days,” there would be fear-inspiring celestial phenomena. Mark 13:24, 25 says that these phenomena would take place “in those days, after that tribulation.” (See also Lu 21:25, 26.) To what “tribulation” did Jesus there refer?

Some Bible commentators have reasoned that it was the tribulation that came upon Jerusalem in 70 C.E., though they also realized that the events described thereafter evidently would take place at a time that, from a human standpoint, was then distant. They reasoned that the expression “immediately after” conveyed God’s perspective of the time involved or that the certainty of what was to occur was being expressed by language that placed the events immediately before the reader.

However, since the prophecy at Matthew 24:4-22 (also Mr 13:5-20 and Lu 21:8-24a) clearly has a dual fulfillment, might the “tribulation” referred to at Matthew 24:29 and Mark 13:24 be the “tribulation” during the second and final fulfillment of what was foretold at Matthew 24:21 and Mark 13:19? Viewed in the light of the Bible as a whole, this seems most likely. Do the terms used in the Greek text allow for such a view? Definitely. When Matthew 24:29 refers to “those days” and when Mark 13:24 mentions “those days” and “that tribulation,” the Greek grammar does allow for such an understanding. It seems that Jesus’ prophecy is saying that after the outbreak of the coming global tribulation, there will be striking phenomena (as represented by sun and moon being darkened, stars falling, and powers of heaven being shaken) as well as fulfillment of “the sign of the Son of man.”

About three decades after Jerusalem’s destruction, the apostle John, with reference to a great crowd of persons from all nations, tribes, and peoples, was told: “These are the ones that come out of the great tribulation.” (Re 7:13, 14) The fact that a great crowd ‘comes out of the great tribulation’ shows that they survive it. This is confirmed by a similar expression at Acts 7:9, 10: “God was with [Joseph], and he delivered him out of all his tribulations.” Joseph’s being delivered out of all his tribulations meant not only that he was enabled to endure them but also that he survived the afflictions he experienced.

It is noteworthy that the apostle Paul referred to the execution of God’s judgment upon the ungodly as tribulation. He wrote: “This takes into account that it is righteous on God’s part to repay tribulation to those who make tribulation for you, but, to you who suffer tribulation, relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance upon those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.” (2Th 1:6-8) The book of Revelation shows that “Babylon the Great” and “the wild beast” have brought tribulation upon God’s holy ones. (Re 13:3-10; 17:5, 6) It therefore logically follows that the tribulation to come upon “Babylon the Great” and “the wild beast” is included in the “great tribulation.”—Re 18:20; 19:11-21.
 

HAR–MAGEDON​

(Har–Ma·gedʹon) [from Heb., meaning “Mountain of Megiddo”].

This name is directly associated with “the war of the great day of God the Almighty.” The term applies specifically to the condition, or situation, to which “the kings of the entire inhabited earth” are gathered in opposition to Jehovah and his Kingdom by Jesus Christ. In a number of versions it is rendered “Armageddon.” (Re 16:14, 16, AT; KJ; JB; RS; TEV) The name Har–Magedon, taken from Hebrew, means simply “Mountain of Megiddo.”

There does not appear to have been a literal place called “Mountain of Megiddo,” either inside or outside the Promised Land, before or during the days of the apostle John, who recorded the vision. Hence, Har–Magedon evidently draws its significance from the events associated with the ancient city of Megiddo.

Megiddo was situated a few miles SE of Mount Carmel, overlooking and dominating the Plain of Esdraelon (Jezreel) and controlling major N-S and E-W trade and military routes. Joshua first conquered this Canaanite city. (Jos 12:7, 8, 21) Near this site Jabin’s army under command of Sisera was later destroyed. Jehovah there employed natural forces to assist the Israelite army under Barak. The account reads: “Barak went descending from Mount Tabor with ten thousand men behind him. And Jehovah began to throw Sisera and all his war chariots and all the camp into confusion by the edge of the sword before Barak. Finally Sisera got down off the chariot and took to flight on foot. And Barak chased after the war chariots and the camp as far as Harosheth of the nations, so that all the camp of Sisera fell by the edge of the sword. Not as much as one remained.”—Jg 4:14-16.

After the victory, Barak and the prophetess Deborah broke out in song, which went, in part: “Kings came, they fought; it was then that the kings of Canaan fought in Taanach by the waters of Megiddo. No gain of silver did they take. From heaven did the stars fight, from their orbits they fought against Sisera. The torrent of Kishon washed them away, the torrent of ancient days, the torrent of Kishon. You went treading down strength, O my soul. It was then that the hoofs of horses pawed because of dashings upon dashings of his stallions.”—Jg 5:19-22.

It was at Megiddo that King Ahaziah of Judah died after he was mortally wounded on orders of Jehu. (2Ki 9:27) There King Josiah of Judah was killed in an encounter with Pharaoh Nechoh. (2Ki 23:29, 30) Because of its commanding position, many other nations, according to secular history, warred around Megiddo. ‘Jews, Gentiles, Saracens, crusaders, Egyptians, Persians, Druses, Turks, and Arabs have all pitched their tents on the plain of Esdraelon.’—Word Studies in the New Testament, by M. R. Vincent, 1957, Vol. II, p. 542.

The Revelation account depicts the combined forces of the kings of the earth as being gathered “to the place [Gr., form of toʹpos] that is called in Hebrew Har–Magedon.” (Re 16:16) In the Bible toʹpos may refer to a literal location (Mt 14:13, 15, 35); to one’s opportunity, or “chance” (Ac 25:16); or to a figurative realm, condition, or situation (Re 12:6, 14). In view of the context, it is to a “place” in the last-mentioned sense that earth’s combined military powers are marching.

“The war of the great day of God the Almighty” at Har–Magedon was not some past event but is depicted in Revelation as future from the time of John’s vision. The gathering of the kings to Har–Magedon is described as being a result of the pouring out of the sixth of the seven bowls containing the “last” plagues that will bring to a finish the anger of God. (Re 15:1; 16:1, 12) Also, indicating that the war at Har–Magedon is closely associated with Christ’s presence is the warning of his coming as a thief, which is placed between verses 14 and 16 of Revelation chapter 16.

The global aspect of the war is emphasized in the context. There the opponents of Jehovah are identified as “the kings of the entire inhabited earth,” who are mobilized by “expressions inspired by demons.”—Re 16:14.

Farther on, John says: “And I saw the wild beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war with the one seated on the horse and with his army.” (Re 19:19) This chapter identifies the leader of the heavenly armies, seated on a white horse, as one who is called “Faithful and True” and “The Word of God.” (Re 19:11-13) Therefore, it is Jesus Christ, The Word, who acts as the commander of God’s heavenly armies. (Joh 1:1; Re 3:14) Further showing that Christ leads the heavenly forces is the statement that the earthly forces “battle with the Lamb [who is Jesus Christ (Joh 1:29)], but, because he is Lord of lords and King of kings, the Lamb will conquer them. Also, those called and chosen and faithful with him will do so.”—Re 17:13, 14.

Since the vision in Revelation chapter 19 reveals only armies in heaven as participating in the warfare as supporters of Jesus Christ, The Word of God, it indicates that none of Jehovah’s Christian servants on earth will participate in the fighting. This is in harmony with the words of Jesus Christ at Matthew 26:52 that his disciples not resort to weapons of physical warfare. (Compare Ex 14:13, 14; 2Ch 20:15, 17, 22, 23; Ps 2:4-9.) The birds that fly in midheaven will dispose of the bodies of those slaughtered.—Re 19:11-21.

Har–Magedon is thus seen to be a fight, not merely among men, but one in which God’s invisible armies take part. Its coming is certain and it will take place at the time set by Jehovah God, who “is doing according to his own will among the army of the heavens and the inhabitants of the earth.”—Da 4:35; see also Mt 24:36.
 
Someone on here asked me of one of you people were spreading this on here. I said no but I can see I spoke too soon. Bud, I mean you no ill will but you do not believe as Jehovah's Witnesses do. Without question, all of us here could be described as modified Jehovah's Witnesses but definitely not a breakoff sect and most definitely not teaching anything fundamentally different as compared to the governing body. We are Jehovah's Witnesses and we believe what we believe because of thorough reading of scripture. What you are preaching is contrary to what I personally believe. I find it to be bizarre but expected in the last days. I don't what your motive is but you are teaching the same thing I spoke about of this new sect who are teaching against what is commonly understood among almost all denominations disregarding people who believe in the rapture or those who think everyone goes to heaven. Good fortune to you.
This will be my last reply to you regarding any topic.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
One is fleshly, one is spiritual. I hope this is not too deep for you. Next question please.
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If there is tribulation physical, is there also a tribulation emotional, spiritual, mental...?
And if there are physical, fleshly wars, can there be also wars of words, wars among laweyrs, wars in courts...? And I hope it is not too deep for you.
 
Jesus said that the great tribulation would be so severe that unless God cut it short, no flesh would be saved. Obviously, God did not cut short the tribulation brought about by the Roman siege of Jerusalem in the first century. The city was utterly destroyed, and a million worshippers were killed, as they were crammed into the city for the Passover. But that "tribulation" was very localized. The great tribulation that will occur during the conclusion will pose an existential threat to humanity. It is hard to see it as anything other than a nuclear war, which God will interrupt on account of the chosen ones.
 
Watchman said:
Jesus said that the great tribulation would be so severe that unless God cut it short, no flesh would be saved. Obviously, God did not cut short the tribulation brought about by the Roman siege of Jerusalem in the first century. The city was utterly destroyed, and a million worshippers were killed, as they were crammed into the city for the Passover. But that "tribulation" was very localized. The great tribulation that will occur during the conclusion will pose an existential threat to humanity. It is hard to see it as anything other than a nuclear war, which God will interrupt on account of the chosen ones.
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Unless that "flesh" refers to the anointed only (Ezekiel 36:26).
 
Joel said:
Unless that "flesh" refers to the anointed only (Ezekiel 36:26).
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Jesus said that the tribulation will come upon the entire inhabited earth. In other words, all flesh. Also, Jesus said the great tribulation would be worse than any calamity in history, the likes of which would never occur again. It sounds to me like you are going down the Preterist path. I would advise against that.
 
Watchman said:
Jesus said that the tribulation will come upon the entire inhabited earth. In other words, all flesh. Also, Jesus said the great tribulation would be worse than any calamity in history, the likes of which would never occur again. It sounds to me like you are going down the Preterist path. I would advise against that.
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Again, if you see the "earth" in the light of Isaiah 65:17, you get new picture...
 
Watchman said:
We understand the new earth to be a new world of people not under Satan's influence. Jesus said these will come out of the great tribulation that is coming upon the entire inhabited earth.
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Great crowd is the new earth...
 
Joel said:
If there is tribulation physical, is there also a tribulation emotional, spiritual, mental...?
And if there are physical, fleshly wars, can there be also wars of words, wars among laweyrs, wars in courts...? And I hope it is not too deep for you.
Click to expand...
I think I can just about grasp this level of depth. Of course there are wars of words! The bible points to there being “no agreement” between people. Where are we going with this?
 
Joel said:
“And I saw, and look!...white horse…fiery-colored horse…black horse…pale horse…” - Revelation 6:2-8. What do the horses represent? Hints - Revelation 1:1 and James 4:1.
Click to expand...
My advice is simple, don't get too caught up in your own conjecture... as it will only lead to more confusion and conflict. The more I listen to the Bible the more my faith grows, but also my confusion. Therefore, I decided a while back to focus on the non-confusing doctrines and leave the things to come in Jehovah's hands. What's coming isn't test of who has everything correct right now, but rather who has absolute faith in Jehovah, and Jesus when he returns. I keep telling my sons that Jesus will clear up all the confusion very soon.

We're all here because we either grew up in the organization or we found it to be the most logical Bible based religion (my case). None of us understand with 100% certainty every topic, but what the WT teaches about the trinity, eternal torture in hell, the Resurrection, the 1,000 year Kingdom, Paradise and the Anointed going to Heaven makes sense to our Bible trained consciences. The KOTN, KOTS, BTG, HOT, GT... and more are open to conjecture. We all understand the basics, and generally what to expect... but I guarantee you that we are all going to be surprised by what we don't currently understand.

Most here have worked hard to avoid making this forum a sect, or Robert a cult leader. Those who have remained agree with the meat of Robert's analysis of how Scripture applies to the WT. We all have various differing opinions about what's to come but stand in agreement about what has transpired... namely that the seals have not been opened... although I could see an argument that the 1st one has been opened recently, although I don't believe it has. So, basically my advice is to avoid getting bogged down in your own conjecture, as that's how sects are formed.
 
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