A Vegan Lifestyle—What Does the Bible Say?

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
Every week I wait with keen anticipation to see what JW dot org comes up with for their topic of the week. This week it is veganism. It is all about brevity now, to explore a topic as thinly as possible, which is fine, except when you get to answering the question posed: What does the Bible say? The Bible might actually have more to say on a topic than the JW dot org snippet would have you believe.

But since they raised the question, what does the Bible say? Actually, the Bible does record an instance when a strict vegan diet and a heavy meat and wine diet were tested against each other. Three Hebrew boys in captivity in Babylon were undergoing training to be part of the king's extended court. They had access to all of the king's rich fare. Instead, though, the Hebrews asked for vegetables and water, that's it. After a period of 10 days on the diet, the Hebrew boys were found to have a healthier appearance than those who ate from the king's table. Draw your own conclusions.

Of course, Israelites were not required to adopt such a strict diet. Jesus was no vegan. But, if you are going to pretend to provide an answer to what the Bible says perhaps readers deserve to be served a better portion of spiritual food.
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
As usual, scriptures are left out:

Our Creator’s view of humans and of animals​

The Bible indicates that our Creator, Jehovah God, a views humans as superior to animals and that he has given people authority over them. (Genesis 1:27, 28) Eventually, God permitted humans to use animals for food. (Genesis 9:3) However, he does not condone the mistreatment of animals.—Proverbs 12:10.

If we continue JUST ONE MORE VERSE BEYOND the quoted Genesis 1:27,28, then we will find Genesis 1:29 which truly answers the question as to what God thinks about a vegan diet and mind you, this is a command and it was so important it was found in not only their first book of the Bible, but the very first chapter:

29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you.

AND if we go just one more verse beyond that one we find at Genesis 1:30 what Jehovah had given to ALL beasts including lions, tigers and bears:

30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.


So, if someone truly wants to know how God feels about the matter, then there you go. Meat was given after the Flood because all fruit trees and vegetation were far submerged under water and they needed to eat something. However, Noah and his sons and daughters-in-law plus all the animals survived just fine for a year on the ark with just vegetation, pulses and perhaps some fruits.

My opinion is, that the ONLY reason that WT is even wiling to touch this topic, and as a BANNER on JW.org at that, is because she is whoring again. Her Beast lover, the UN, has one of its sustainable development goals, the goal of reducing the consumption of eating meat globally and eating either bugs or lab-grown meats developed by Granny Gates.

I showed you the page where IBSA (International Bible Students Association) is a member of UIA, which is the founding organization of the League of Nations and later the UN, and as such, must promote their SDG's (sustainable development goals)





As an interesting aside, I was reading last night a book called "Demonism and the WT" and it was calling "demonism" a book called "The Grape Cure" which was a book that Frederick Franz liked and recommended. LOL.

The book just recommends a grape-only diet for cleansing and healing. While some may view it as extreme, I know of many people who've healed themselves on a fruit only diet (kinda like the one God promoted in the Garden of Eden) and there's nothing demonic about it.

While we know that Russell had some FM symbolisms on his books and with his associates, it definitely reduced the credibility of the author's claims when he calls a grape only diet demonic. Heck, even pub.med.gov has scores of articles on the healing effects of plant-based diets on tons of diseases and even my local hospital has many of its staff on them and teaches it to heart patients down the street from my house in the local YMCA. The dieticians all teach it. In fact, I gave a presentation at a local diabetic clinic about 10 years ago about how diabetics were healing their diabetes with fruit and the look on their faces was one of shock. They must've researched what I said, though, and saw the science because that's the diet that they are now promoting to diabetics. I know, because when my diabetic husband was in the hospital, that's the diet they promoted for him to eat, and they let me cook him all of his meals and he uses no medications to manage his diabetes now. That's from a man who had his mother die at age 59, his brother die at age 44, and they both had an amputated limb and his brother was blind in one eye. His father and sister also have it and they had open heart surgery and gastric bypass surgery respectively. Of course, Jehovah always knows what he's talking about.

For those wanting to see the science about plant-based diets healing both Type 2 and helping reduce insulin needs in Type 1 read this:


At the end of the day, this topic is very highly emotionally charged and it's going to take Jehovah God to mandate it like he did in the Garden and with the manna for it to stick, and even then, there's going to be tons of people who will rebel just like they did in the wilderness.

I don't think the majority of people care what the Bible says about diet, 'cause they're going to eat whatever they want regardless. I just find it funny that WT is grasping at news topics to write about. But they're rather late to the game on this one, but at least they can submit it to the UN as them doing their job at promoting their agendas.
 
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robins

Well-known member
Every week I wait with keen anticipation to see what JW dot org comes up with for their topic of the week. This week it is veganism. It is all about brevity now, to explore a topic as thinly as possible, which is fine, except when you get to answering the question posed: What does the Bible say? The Bible might actually have more to say on a topic than the JW dot org snippet would have you believe.

But since they raised the question, what does the Bible say? Actually, the Bible does record an instance when a strict vegan diet and a heavy meat and wine diet were tested against each other. Three Hebrew boys in captivity in Babylon were undergoing training to be part of the king's extended court. They had access to all of the king's rich fare. Instead, though, the Hebrews asked for vegetables and water, that's it. After a period of 10 days on the diet, the Hebrew boys were found to have a healthier appearance than those who ate from the king's table. Draw your own conclusions.

Of course, Israelites were not required to adopt such a strict diet. Jesus was no vegan. But, if you are going to pretend to provide an answer to what the Bible says perhaps readers deserve to be served a better portion of spiritual food.
Thank you for posting this! Having spent lots of research on the sourcing of our food (i.e. typical american diet ), i am outraged at the "brevity". To not mention the bible's direction of an ideal diet in Genesis, the flood account in which he allows for the eating of meat, the Hebrew account in which you mention, and the abstaining from meat (when referred to meat from animal sacrifice) if it may stumble another, and the bible's discussion of HOW an animal is bled matters to god, is SUCH a disservice to the topic. It is extremely simplistic and irresponsible to chalk it up to "god will take care of it later so your current actions don't matter". No mention of how mass farming/ big ag in the recent 50 years has disconnected the farmer from the animal, or that corporations minimize the comfort of the animal to maximize profits, the overuse of antibiotics and hormones in a lot of animal products, etc. I'm not expecting another rule from the society, but an honest discussion to the timely topic is long overdue, and i feel this totally checks a simplistic "box" and is not thought-provoking in any way.
 
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robins

Well-known member
As usual, scriptures are left out:

Our Creator’s view of humans and of animals​

The Bible indicates that our Creator, Jehovah God, a views humans as superior to animals and that he has given people authority over them. (Genesis 1:27, 28) Eventually, God permitted humans to use animals for food. (Genesis 9:3) However, he does not condone the mistreatment of animals.—Proverbs 12:10.

If we continue JUST ONE MORE VERSE BEYOND the quoted Genesis 1:27,28, then we will find Genesis 1:29 which truly answers the question as to what God thinks about a vegan diet and mind you, this is a command and it was so important it was found in not only their first book of the Bible, but the very first chapter:

29 Then God said: “Here I have given to you every seed-bearing plant that is on the entire earth and every tree with seed-bearing fruit. Let them serve as food for you.

AND if we go just one more verse beyond that one we find at Genesis 1:30 what Jehovah had given to ALL beasts including lions, tigers and bears:

30 And to every wild animal of the earth and to every flying creature of the heavens and to everything moving on the earth in which there is life, I have given all green vegetation for food.” And it was so.


So, if someone truly wants to know how God feels about the matter, then there you go. Meat was given after the Flood because all fruit trees and vegetation were far submerged under water and they needed to eat something. However, Noah and his sons and daughters-in-law plus all the animals survived just fine for a year on the ark with just vegetation, pulses and perhaps some fruits.

My opinion is, that the ONLY reason that WT is even wiling to touch this topic, and as a BANNER on JW.org at that, is because she is whoring again. Her Beast lover, the UN, has one of its sustainable development goals, the goal of reducing the consumption of eating meat globally and eating either bugs or lab-grown meats developed by Granny Gates.

I showed you the page where IBSA (International Bible Students Association) is a member of UIA, which is the founding organization of the League of Nations and later the UN, and as such, must promote their SDG's (sustainable development goals)





As an interesting aside, I was reading last night a book called "Demonism and the WT" and it was calling "demonism" a book called "The Grape Cure" which was a book that Frederick Franz liked and recommended. LOL.

The book just recommends a grape-only diet for cleansing and healing. While some may view it as extreme, I know of many people who've healed themselves on a fruit only diet (kinda like the one God promoted in the Garden of Eden) and there's nothing demonic about it.

While we know that Russell had some FM symbolisms on his books and with his associates, it definitely reduced the credibility of the author's claims when he calls a grape only diet demonic. Heck, even pub.med.gov has scores of articles on the healing effects of plant-based diets on tons of diseases and even my local hospital has many of its staff on them and teaches it to heart patients down the street from my house in the local YMCA. The dieticians all teach it. In fact, I gave a presentation at a local diabetic clinic about 10 years ago about how diabetics were healing their diabetes with fruit and the look on their faces was one of shock. They must've researched what I said, though, and saw the science because that's the diet that they are now promoting to diabetics. I know, because when my diabetic husband was in the hospital, that's the diet they promoted for him to eat, and they let me cook him all of his meals and he uses no medications to manage his diabetes now. That's from a man who had his mother die at age 59, his brother die at age 44, and they both had an amputated limb and his brother was blind in one eye. His father and sister also have it and they had open heart surgery and gastric bypass surgery respectively. Of course, Jehovah always knows what he's talking about.

At the end of the day, this topic is very highly emotionally charged and it's going to take Jehovah God to mandate it like he did in the Garden and with the manna for it to stick, and even then, there's going to be tons of people who will rebel just like they did in the wilderness.

I don't think the majority of people care what the Bible says about diet, 'cause they're going to eat whatever they want regardless. I just find it funny that WT is grasping at news topics to write about. But they're rather late to the game on this one, but at least they can submit it to the UN as them doing their job at promoting their agendas.
i had not considered the UN angle, but the JW article doesn't discourage the eating of meat at all, it seems to read that it doesn't matter what you eat or if it causes suffering because God will take care of it later- unlike the you-should-only-eat-bugs agenda you mention.
I appreciate your personal antidote about how a change in diet improved your family's life. I agree, but find it unfortunate this is a triggering topic for many. Not many are ready to deeply look at our current food system, the health implications, or the suffering behind it because it might mean making a personal change, which is inconvenient.
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
i had not considered the UN angle, but the JW article doesn't discourage the eating of meat at all, it seems to read that it doesn't matter what you eat or if it causes suffering because God will take care of it later- unlike the you-should-only-eat-bugs agenda you mention.
I appreciate your personal antidote about how a change in diet improved your family's life. I agree, but find it unfortunate this is a triggering topic for many. Not many are ready to deeply look at our current food system, the health implications, or the suffering behind it because it might mean making a personal change, which is inconvenient.
That's why I said it was WT whoring for the UN again. They were using their trickery language by writing an article about it, but purposely staying non-committal and vague and wishy-washy they can claim that they fulfilled an obligation while not really changing. Diets aside, you can be non-vegan and be fit and you can be vegan and be overweight, I get it--there's lots of vegan donuts and pizza and beer is vegan, too.

BUT, this is the most overweight GB we've ever had and it's embarrassing. It's clear that they are very sedentary and eat whatever their heart's desire is. Whatever anyone chooses for their diets, eating clean, whole, unprocessed foods, even "clean" meats is better than what they are doing. Self-control is one of the fruits of God's holy spirit. It's a way of saying "thank you" to Jehovah for the gift of life by taking care of it.

There's the health aspects.

There's the animal welfare aspects, and contrary to what most JW's want to think, part of one of Adam's life-long assignments was caring for the animals.

And then there's the environment. I admit it, I fell for the climate change/vegan message. I was gullible and duped. The vegan doctors like John McDougall and others promote this. What shocked and disgusted me was seeing how many of the vegan doctors and influencers were ALL IN on the COVID/vaxx agenda including Dr. Garth Davis, Dr. Michael Greger, Dr. John McDougall, Chef AJ and others. I was totally disgusted and divorced myself from the whole vegan movement. Now, I realize that there's a lot in the movement who did not go along, but not much in the "leadership". They are just as much Freemason sell-outs as all the rest. I even saw carnivore influencers who were more against the vaxx than some of these vegans.

I had to "wake up" and realize that even the vegan movement had been infiltrated by the Freemasons to promote the UN agenda and promote it as "healthy" (even though it is) and "cool" so that people would fall in line with their agenda.

That's why is so important to see what GOD wants. Having been in the movement for over 40 years, I'm tired of the arguing and posturing and splitting of hairs. People are gonna do what people are gonna do. I have to hold my tongue and not say "I told you so" when I hear of them getting heart attacks or whatever else ends up happening to them. They have to learn on their own.

The article is right. Jehovah IS going to reverse all of this, including the GB's negligence. When I saw Lloyd Evan's interview of an ex-Bethelite who blew the whistle on WT for burying toxic waste from ink barrels on their property illegally in the ground, I realized that they have zero respect for God's creation; not the earth, not their bodies, not for people, NADA.

There's a drinking culture back at Bethel and the GB is overweight. I have never seen so many unhealthy people in the JW religion. It's sad and pathetic. Other religions like 7th Day Adventists get together and have potlucks on Sundays of healthy food and go on hikes together. Now, some JW's may do this, but in all my years in the organization, it's been hard to find. I used to get counseled for being an aerobics instructor. You know, the "bodily devotion is beneficial for a LITTLE, but godly devotion is beneficial for all things". They would use that scripture to pile their plates high with all kinds of fatty foods and gorge themselves and then go and pioneer on government welfare.

Um, no thanks. I like being able to walk and be independent, thank you.
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
That's why I said it was WT whoring for the UN again. They were using their trickery language by writing an article about it, but purposely staying non-committal and vague and wishy-washy they can claim that they fulfilled an obligation while not really changing. Diets aside, you can be non-vegan and be fit and you can be vegan and be overweight, I get it--there's lots of vegan donuts and pizza and beer is vegan, too.

BUT, this is the most overweight GB we've ever had and it's embarrassing. It's clear that they are very sedentary and eat whatever their heart's desire is. Whatever anyone chooses for their diets, eating clean, whole, unprocessed foods, even "clean" meats is better than what they are doing. Self-control is one of the fruits of God's holy spirit. It's a way of saying "thank you" to Jehovah for the gift of life by taking care of it.

There's the health aspects.

There's the animal welfare aspects, and contrary to what most JW's want to think, part of one of Adam's life-long assignments was caring for the animals.

And then there's the environment. I admit it, I fell for the climate change/vegan message. I was gullible and duped. The vegan doctors like John McDougall and others promote this. What shocked and disgusted me was seeing how many of the vegan doctors and influencers were ALL IN on the COVID/vaxx agenda including Dr. Garth Davis, Dr. Michael Greger, Dr. John McDougall, Chef AJ and others. I was totally disgusted and divorced myself from the whole vegan movement. Now, I realize that there's a lot in the movement who did not go along, but not much in the "leadership". They are just as much Freemason sell-outs as all the rest. I even saw carnivore influencers who were more against the vaxx than some of these vegans.

I had to "wake up" and realize that even the vegan movement had been infiltrated by the Freemasons to promote the UN agenda and promote it as "healthy" (even though it is) and "cool" so that people would fall in line with their agenda.

That's why is so important to see what GOD wants. Having been in the movement for over 40 years, I'm tired of the arguing and posturing and splitting of hairs. People are gonna do what people are gonna do. I have to hold my tongue and not say "I told you so" when I hear of them getting heart attacks or whatever else ends up happening to them. They have to learn on their own.

The article is right. Jehovah IS going to reverse all of this, including the GB's negligence. When I saw Lloyd Evan's interview of an ex-Bethelite who blew the whistle on WT for burying toxic waste from ink barrels on their property illegally in the ground, I realized that they have zero respect for God's creation; not the earth, not their bodies, not for people, NADA.

There's a drinking culture back at Bethel and the GB is overweight. I have never seen so many unhealthy people in the JW religion. It's sad and pathetic. Other religions like 7th Day Adventists get together and have potlucks on Sundays of healthy food and go on hikes together. Now, some JW's may do this, but in all my years in the organization, it's been hard to find. I used to get counseled for being an aerobics instructor. You know, the "bodily devotion is beneficial for a LITTLE, but godly devotion is beneficial for all things". They would use that scripture to pile their plates high with all kinds of fatty foods and gorge themselves and then go and pioneer on government welfare.

Um, no thanks. I like being able to walk and be independent, thank you.
No doubt when the disgusting thing is visible the WT will be serving up insects as food at the proper time. :sick:
 

Revvzone

Well-known member
Every week I wait with keen anticipation to see what JW dot org comes up with for their topic of the week. This week it is veganism. It is all about brevity now, to explore a topic as thinly as possible, which is fine, except when you get to answering the question posed: What does the Bible say? The Bible might actually have more to say on a topic than the JW dot org snippet would have you believe.

But since they raised the question, what does the Bible say? Actually, the Bible does record an instance when a strict vegan diet and a heavy meat and wine diet were tested against each other. Three Hebrew boys in captivity in Babylon were undergoing training to be part of the king's extended court. They had access to all of the king's rich fare. Instead, though, the Hebrews asked for vegetables and water, that's it. After a period of 10 days on the diet, the Hebrew boys were found to have a healthier appearance than those who ate from the king's table. Draw your own conclusions.

Of course, Israelites were not required to adopt such a strict diet. Jesus was no vegan. But, if you are going to pretend to provide an answer to what the Bible says perhaps readers deserve to be served a better portion of spiritual food.
Vegan huh? Certainly would save a lot a messy cleanups..much easier to walk up to a tree or bush and grab some low hanging fruit, just seems so natural...
 

Jahrule

Well-known member
I could probably live as a vegetarian, but there's no way in hell I'm giving up cheese and milk and eggs. If some of you are vegan I'm not talking about you. It just seems to me vegansim is more about social credit than virtue. I bet 95% of these people would be eating meat again if society broke down. Did I mention that a vegan diet kills more animals than a carnivorous diet? Sounds weird but it's true. Making room for all that vegan produce comes at a cost too. Go figure.
 

robins

Well-known member
I could probably live as a vegetarian, but there's no way in hell I'm giving up cheese and milk and eggs. If some of you are vegan I'm not talking about you. It just seems to me vegansim is more about social credit than virtue. I bet 95% of these people would be eating meat again if society broke down. Did I mention that a vegan diet kills more animals than a carnivorous diet? Sounds weird but it's true. Making room for all that vegan produce comes at a cost too. Go figure.
I agree with you in principle there is nothing morally wrong with dairy and eggs in isolation, but the real issue is the conditions in which these animals are exploited in the modern day era and the conditions they are raised, inseminated, force-fed, deprived of their young, killed prematurely, etc. Not to be mean, but it comes across as a little superficial to demand you aren't going to give up something without doing the research of the suffering behind it. Marketing would love to have consumers believe that your milk comes from cows that openly graze on pastures, and chickens that run free, but the reality is that only boutique farms sell these items at high prices - not your average carton of milk or eggs at the grocery store. I would love to be forwarded the data on how a vegan diet kills more animals than a carnivorous one, it does sound weird and i'd love to learn about the research you've done on that topic! I too am unclear what making room for produce means in relation to killing animals.
If society broke down and i would starve without eating meat, i agree many would revisit their stand... but as long as god has provided the option for healthy veg eating, are we not spiritually obligated or morally moved to make the most compassionate choice?
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
I agree with you in principle there is nothing morally wrong with dairy and eggs in isolation, but the real issue is the conditions in which these animals are exploited in the modern day era and the conditions they are raised, inseminated, force-fed, deprived of their young, killed prematurely, etc. Not to be mean, but it comes across as a little superficial to demand you aren't going to give up something without doing the research of the suffering behind it. Marketing would love to have consumers believe that your milk comes from cows that openly graze on pastures, and chickens that run free, but the reality is that only boutique farms sell these items at high prices - not your average carton of milk or eggs at the grocery store. I would love to be forwarded the data on how a vegan diet kills more animals than a carnivorous one, it does sound weird and i'd love to learn about the research you've done on that topic! I too am unclear what making room for produce means in relation to killing animals.
If society broke down and i would starve without eating meat, i agree many would revisit their stand... but as long as god has provided the option for healthy veg eating, are we not spiritually obligated or morally moved to make the most compassionate choice?
Different approaches and values appeal to different people.

I live in a state that owns a lot of guns and that children are raised hunting. I never had this in the state where I grew up in and moved from. If people are raised from an early age to override these natural instincts, and are presented them as a family fun event that they bond with their parents during, then it's hard for them to break this conditioning, because it's much like someone becoming one of JW's and facing the persecution from their families.

I remember being in a car-group when I moved here and being in a van. I was in the middle section and the driver was talking to a young mother in the back seat with her children who were in the ages of 5-12 and she was telling them that she took her children hunting with her and that they shot a mother deer while her young babies were nearby and watching the mother go down. I distinctly remember feeling so horrified and shocked at the hypocrisy of having Jehovah's people who were out in the Christian ministry, going to people's doors talking about a paradise where animals would be at peace with humans and then coming back to the car and talking about looking forward to hunting in the New System. It was revolting and traumatizing.

While I have always been an ethical vegan after witnessing the slaughter of a rabbit at an agricultural farm, having it's head decapitated and the little bunny turned upside down and hung while it's blood poured from its neck to drain out. I became an internal vegan right then and then as a teenager, when I learned that such a diet existed and how to do it, I became vegetarian. It wasn't until years later that I learned about how dairy cows were impregnated by men who donned on a long arm's length rubber glove, went to a male cow and stroked it until it ejaculated, and then took the sperm and stuck their arm inside of a female cow's vagina to impregnate her. It was disgusting and revolting to me and then I learned that dairy cows were kept perpetually pregnant in order to make milk, because only pregnant mothers made milk, and this weakened her health, which required a ton of antibiotics and then she was killed when she got too old to bear anymore children.

I watched videos of baby cows dropping from a mother's womb onto the floor, only to be dragged away by the legs from it's crying mother in order to be made into veal.

No, the normal person does not know ANY of these things nor do most want to know. It's too disturbing. But it's also carefully kept from us just like WT carefully concealed its membership with the UN.

Robin, if you want to wake people up, then talking in vague general terms of suffering does not paint the picture. Give specific actions. Tell it like it is. Now, there are some traumatized people who have been so traumatized in life that they've learned at an early age how to disassociate and so even telling them this won't get through to them. Also, they have families who would disown them if they gave up eating a certain way. Think I am being extreme? Then didn't certain families disown their family members if they didn't get vaccinated?

This is a big deal. It's something people have to be ready for. They need a supportive community to go to. They need to know how to make new recipes and foods to replace their favorite meals. They need to know how to handle social situations and the persecution they will inevitably endure at the hands of loved ones. I've dealt with it for years in the organization so I can tell you it absolutely exists among JW's.

So, the slaughtering is horrible, but many on here may have personally slaughtered an animal before and did it with their families. My grandfather owned a gun/rifle company and took my aunt hunting.

Only in Jehovah's new world will people "learn war no more" and also not hunt anymore. It simply will not be allowed. Right now, people allow others to do the killing for them. Out of sight, out of mind. Then heart disease, cancers, diabetes, arthritis appears and they take drugs. It's insanity. And y'all know how I feel about insanity. :rolleyes:

I have learned a long time ago to leave that in Jehovah's hands just like I had to with abortion, child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, etc. What's in my circle of influence, I try to do, but if I dwell on the suffering in this Satanic world, it's too much. I can't wait for Jah's Kingdom to come and put an end to all of this and for his Son to rule with love and righteousness. Only then will all of this stuff go away.
 

robins

Well-known member
Different approaches and values appeal to different people.

I live in a state that owns a lot of guns and that children are raised hunting. I never had this in the state where I grew up in and moved from. If people are raised from an early age to override these natural instincts, and are presented them as a family fun event that they bond with their parents during, then it's hard for them to break this conditioning, because it's much like someone becoming one of JW's and facing the persecution from their families.

I remember being in a car-group when I moved here and being in a van. I was in the middle section and the driver was talking to a young mother in the back seat with her children who were in the ages of 5-12 and she was telling them that she took her children hunting with her and that they shot a mother deer while her young babies were nearby and watching the mother go down. I distinctly remember feeling so horrified and shocked at the hypocrisy of having Jehovah's people who were out in the Christian ministry, going to people's doors talking about a paradise where animals would be at peace with humans and then coming back to the car and talking about looking forward to hunting in the New System. It was revolting and traumatizing.

While I have always been an ethical vegan after witnessing the slaughter of a rabbit at an agricultural farm, having it's head decapitated and the little bunny turned upside down and hung while it's blood poured from its neck to drain out. I became an internal vegan right then and then as a teenager, when I learned that such a diet existed and how to do it, I became vegetarian. It wasn't until years later that I learned about how dairy cows were impregnated by men who donned on a long arm's length rubber glove, went to a male cow and stroked it until it ejaculated, and then took the sperm and stuck their arm inside of a female cow's vagina to impregnate her. It was disgusting and revolting to me and then I learned that dairy cows were kept perpetually pregnant in order to make milk, because only pregnant mothers made milk, and this weakened her health, which required a ton of antibiotics and then she was killed when she got too old to bear anymore children.

I watched videos of baby cows dropping from a mother's womb onto the floor, only to be dragged away by the legs from it's crying mother in order to be made into veal.

No, the normal person does not know ANY of these things nor do most want to know. It's too disturbing. But it's also carefully kept from us just like WT carefully concealed its membership with the UN.

Robin, if you want to wake people up, then talking in vague general terms of suffering does not paint the picture. Give specific actions. Tell it like it is. Now, there are some traumatized people who have been so traumatized in life that they've learned at an early age how to disassociate and so even telling them this won't get through to them. Also, they have families who would disown them if they gave up eating a certain way. Think I am being extreme? Then didn't certain families disown their family members if they didn't get vaccinated?

This is a big deal. It's something people have to be ready for. They need a supportive community to go to. They need to know how to make new recipes and foods to replace their favorite meals. They need to know how to handle social situations and the persecution they will inevitably endure at the hands of loved ones. I've dealt with it for years in the organization so I can tell you it absolutely exists among JW's.

So, the slaughtering is horrible, but many on here may have personally slaughtered an animal before and did it with their families. My grandfather owned a gun/rifle company and took my aunt hunting.

Only in Jehovah's new world will people "learn war no more" and also not hunt anymore. It simply will not be allowed. Right now, people allow others to do the killing for them. Out of sight, out of mind. Then heart disease, cancers, diabetes, arthritis appears and they take drugs. It's insanity. And y'all know how I feel about insanity. :rolleyes:

I have learned a long time ago to leave that in Jehovah's hands just like I had to with abortion, child sexual abuse, domestic abuse, etc. What's in my circle of influence, I try to do, but if I dwell on the suffering in this Satanic world, it's too much. I can't wait for Jah's Kingdom to come and put an end to all of this and for his Son to rule with love and righteousness. Only then will all of this stuff go away.
you are not wrong - i'm curious how anyone could disagree with your sentiments, experiences, and facts.
And I absolutely hold JW leadership accountable for the exclusionary culture it fosters.
What gets me is the attitude of 'leave it in Jehovah's hands' for personal actions people DO have agency over. The "issue is too big to tackle so i will wait on Jah" could also be applied to a world-wide "preaching" work, yet when it comes to witnessing the society proclaims every small effort is worth counting. Such a double standard.
i applaud your stand in the face of diversity. It has pained me for years that such dichotomy existed in a religion that is supposed to promote peace and love.
 

Soul Sage

Well-known member
I myself was a former vegetarian now pescatarian. I agree that this article sounds extremely curated, like if it's a quote from the UN website. The bible scriptures and examples you guys quoted above goes far more into detail. Most people on earth except the nephilim were vegetarian, pre flood. Fruits and vegetables were more rich in vitamins and minerals back then. Jehovah allowed our diets to expand because the earth was flooded and couldn't cultivate a harvest for a while. Fish was a plentiful source of food as they can survive in a flood. I believe that is the start of when fishing was invented. During the flood and after. If they can make an ark I'm sure they can make fishing rods. As they practically lived in a water world for a few months and fruits and vegetables start rotting after some time even with preservatives although they probably had tons of stored food on board.

And even though I prefer not to eat meat other than fish. I can understand why it's like that now. Foods have less nutritious value now and human bodies are not as they were when early mankind used to live for hundreds of years long.

Reading the article is just really simplified and dumbed down to a point where I saw little value in reading it.
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
you are not wrong - i'm curious how anyone could disagree with your sentiments, experiences, and facts.
And I absolutely hold JW leadership accountable for the exclusionary culture it fosters.
What gets me is the attitude of 'leave it in Jehovah's hands' for personal actions people DO have agency over. The "issue is too big to tackle so i will wait on Jah" could also be applied to a world-wide "preaching" work, yet when it comes to witnessing the society proclaims every small effort is worth counting. Such a double standard.
i applaud your stand in the face of diversity. It has pained me for years that such dichotomy existed in a religion that is supposed to promote peace and love.
I agree that WT has taught personal passivity. Don't think, research, question, act, exercise, eat well....we will take care of all of it and what we can't do, God's Kingdom will.

While I agree that there's a lot that we can't control, there's actually a lot we can control.

The Serenity Prayer from AA applies here:

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things that I cannot change,

The Courage to change the things I can,

And the Wisdom to know the difference.
 

Soul Sage

Well-known member
Also, I heard this argument many times saying that being vegetarian kills more animals than hunting because of collateral damage for when the machines run over field mice etc and when farmers kill pests relentlessly to preserve their crops. It's a bad argument though. Farming is not supposed to be that way. But that is how industrial farming is unfortunately. Without relying on machines like that and hand picking veggies and living in harmony with animals by having smarter and more humane ways of preventing pests from eating your crops instead of coming to the default conclusion of "KILL IT!" Living in such a screwed up world, we have to take the bad with the good for now. In paradise there will be a return to proper farming techniques that will work in harmony for both humans and animals. And most people would be good intentioned by then and respect animal life more. And sad to hear that a hunter would kill a mother deer when she has a baby with her. It's not ethical. Even the bible quotes 3 different times in Exodus and Deuteronomy “You must not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk." For we are a holy people to Jehovah and that is not respecting nature. I'm not against hunting even though I'm pescatarian but there should be hunter ethics if they are to be holy people respecting nature.
 

StopTheInsanity

Well-known member
Also, I heard this argument many times saying that being vegetarian kills more animals than hunting because of collateral damage for when the machines run over field mice etc and when farmers kill pests relentlessly to preserve their crops. It's a bad argument though. Farming is not supposed to be that way. But that is how industrial farming is unfortunately. Without relying on machines like that and hand picking veggies and living in harmony with animals by having smarter and more humane ways of preventing pests from eating your crops instead of coming to the default conclusion of "KILL IT!" Living in such a screwed up world, we have to take the bad with the good for now. In paradise there will be a return to proper farming techniques that will work in harmony for both humans and animals. And most people would be good intentioned by then and respect animal life more. And sad to hear that a hunter would kill a mother deer when she has a baby with her. It's not ethical. Even the bible quotes 3 different times in Exodus and Deuteronomy “You must not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk." For we are a holy people to Jehovah and that is not respecting nature. I'm not against hunting even though I'm pescatarian but there should be hunter ethics if they are to be holy people respecting nature.
Yes, permaculture taught me about polyculture versus monoculture gardening and how man has ruined ecology by monoculture. Machinery, Monsanto, Big pharma, Big Ag, they are all owned by the elites. They have successfully fostered ecologically illiterate and ignorant masses who are divorced from the knowledge of how to care for the land because they saw how independent the Indians were and knew they had to steal away that knowledge from the people's children in order to take their power away. It worked. That's why they will be able to coerce people to take the mark of the beast.
 

robins

Well-known member
Also, I heard this argument many times saying that being vegetarian kills more animals than hunting because of collateral damage for when the machines run over field mice etc and when farmers kill pests relentlessly to preserve their crops. It's a bad argument though. Farming is not supposed to be that way. But that is how industrial farming is unfortunately. Without relying on machines like that and hand picking veggies and living in harmony with animals by having smarter and more humane ways of preventing pests from eating your crops instead of coming to the default conclusion of "KILL IT!" Living in such a screwed up world, we have to take the bad with the good for now. In paradise there will be a return to proper farming techniques that will work in harmony for both humans and animals. And most people would be good intentioned by then and respect animal life more. And sad to hear that a hunter would kill a mother deer when she has a baby with her. It's not ethical. Even the bible quotes 3 different times in Exodus and Deuteronomy “You must not boil a young goat in its mother’s milk." For we are a holy people to Jehovah and that is not respecting nature. I'm not against hunting even though I'm pescatarian but there should be hunter ethics if they are to be holy people respecting nature.
Animals eat crops, and it takes A LOT more harvesting of land to feed livestock on a per-calorie basis than directly eating the produce. So that argument of minimizing collateral damage by being carnivorous holds no weight after thinking through the logistics.
 

Revvzone

Well-known member
I agree with you in principle there is nothing morally wrong with dairy and eggs in isolation, but the real issue is the conditions in which these animals are exploited in the modern day era and the conditions they are raised, inseminated, force-fed, deprived of their young, killed prematurely, etc. Not to be mean, but it comes across as a little superficial to demand you aren't going to give up something without doing the research of the suffering behind it. Marketing would love to have consumers believe that your milk comes from cows that openly graze on pastures, and chickens that run free, but the reality is that only boutique farms sell these items at high prices - not your average carton of milk or eggs at the grocery store. I would love to be forwarded the data on how a vegan diet kills more animals than a carnivorous one, it does sound weird and i'd love to learn about the research you've done on that topic! I too am unclear what making room for produce means in relation to killing animals.
If society broke down and i would starve without eating meat, i agree many would revisit their stand... but as long as god has provided the option for healthy veg eating, are we not spiritually obligated or morally moved to make the most compassionate choice
Compassionate? Most herd animals are compassionately watered and feed by caring farmers or ranchers, before they're sold to slaughter... I can ring a chickens neck, pluck it, and it's on the kitchen table for supper, or slaughter a hog or bull just the same..I call that compassionately feeding my family.. When the grocery stores are either empty of food, or shut you out, there won't be any compassion about wacking a wild goose over the head or eating a stray dog even your lap dog foofoo or whatever you can find when your stomach thinks your throats been slit, gnawing away at your spin , when you can't buy a Sixpack of chlorophyll or a tub of soy, or hummus, which by the way, destroys the endocrine system in men, turning them into subservient estrogen filled wimps, they can't even work a hard day and they're dead tired...good luck eating tree bark when it's negative 30 outside ... these total vegans die like flies, hair turns to straw crape paper skin, they look like pasty ciggerett ash, and they think they look great...The human body needs saturated fats to exist.. we don't live in the past.. 2000 yrs ago Babylon who's vegetables weren't sprayed with deady pesticides... or eat grapes the size walnuts..get real! The vegan diets of today are planned, designed and promoted by the same kind of people like in Germany that gave just enough food to slowly deplete the body of nutrient rich food, eventually starving people to death.. you hear this crap all the time, don't eat salt, don't eat eggs don't drink milk. And exchange healthy intake for dog crap almond milk or watered down bean juice..let me know how your kidneys and other organs hold up eating strained Okra and grass seeds..
 
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robins

Well-known member
Compassionate? Most herd animals are compassionately watered and feed by carrying farmers or ranchers, before they are sold to slaughter, I can ring a chickens neck, pluck it, and it's on the kitchen table for supper, or slaughter a hog or bull just the same..I call that compassionately feeding my family.. When the grocery stores are either empty of food, or shut you out, there won't be any compassion about wacking a wild goose over the head or eating a stray dog or whatever you can find, when can't buy a Sixpack of chlorophyll or a tub of soy, or hummus, which by the way, destroys the endocrine system in men, turning them into subservient estrogen filled sissy's, they can't even work a hard day and they're dead tired...good luck eating tree bark when it's negative 30 outside ... these total vegans die like flies, hair turns to straw crape paper skin, they look like pasty ciggerett ash, and they think they look great...The human body needs saturated fats, to exist.. we don't live in the past.. 2000 yrs ago Babylon who's vegetables weren't sprayed with deady pesticides... or eat grapes the size walnuts..get real! The vegan diets of today are planned and promoted by the same kind of people like in Germany that gave just enough food to slowly deplete the body of nutrient rich food eventually starving people to death.. you hear this crap all the time, don't eat salt, don't eat eggs don't drink milk. And exchange healthy intake for dog crap almond milk or watered down bean juice..let me know how your kidneys and other organs hold up eating strained Okra and grass seeds..
I'm not sure you've read all the comments on this thread. The argument is not to never eat meat, or dairy, or eggs - nor what people would do in a time of starvation or crisis - but as long as we have the option to eat compassionately in this unique moment of time, why choose harm or pain unnecessarily? Most herd animals are not treated as kindly as you describe, as production of big Ag does not look like a small family farm. Does the bible teach a message of compassion and care, or bloodthirst and disregard for the sanctity of life? You point out that there are unhealthy vegans which is true, but it doesn't weaken the argument that there is a healthy and peaceable way to live if blessed with that circumstance. Your anger seems displaced and misdirected.
 

Revvzone

Well-known member
Animals eat crops, and it takes A LOT more harvesting of land to feed livestock on a per-calorie basis than directly eating the produce. So that argument of minimizing collateral damage by being carnivorous holds no weight after thinking through the logistics.
That is not true!... The plains states provided grass for over a 100 million Buffalo .. even the plains of Africa provided for grazing animals in the millions..Do some research, stop posting the climate mongering mantra drivel, post that on the climate nitwit website..
 

Revvzone

Well-known member
I'm not sure you've read all the comments on this thread. The argument is not to never eat meat, or dairy, or eggs - nor what people would do in a time of starvation or crisis - but as long as we have the option to eat compassionately in this unique moment of time, why choose harm or pain unnecessarily? Most herd animals are not treated as kindly as you describe, as production of big Ag does not look like a small family farm. Does the bible teach a message of compassion and care, or bloodthirst and disregard for the sanctity of life? You point out that there are unhealthy vegans which is true, but it doesn't weaken the argument that there is a healthy and peaceable way to live if blessed with that circumstance. Your anger seems displaced and misdirected.
Anger? why would I be angry over people choosing to eat sticks and banana peels ? whatever your bag is , doesn't perturb me...By the way, I've worked around big industry like chickens, turkeys, beef, hogs.it's as humanely controlled as possible for the most part.. The Peta idiots are the driveling elites paid for crew to shut down food products in this case, high protein diets, that keep people alive, the oligarchs don't want this, they want to compassionately send humans to the grave, "starvation style".. They complain about exogenous hormones and antibiotics ... all this stuff is expensive, cattle get shots for bovine fever and anthrax, they don't pump them full of growth hormones, beef are grass eaters, so are hogs for the most part they eat roots grubs worms and such and clean up the land..what makes cattle heavier for slaughter is, they move them from pasture to pen and grain feed them for two weeks to raise the rail price, another thing, grain isn't good for cattle hogs or horses it causes inflammation, they're were not made to eat grain all this crap the news spews out about compassion is a lot of propaganda...
 
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