A Vegan Lifestyle—What Does the Bible Say?

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Very nice insight. And, something I have been wondering about is how (me included) animal lovers have a tendency to elevate animals to the level of humans. But we are not animals although we can have animalistic traits and animals are not humans. We are a different type of creation. So, I then wondered about the fall of the angels, who liked women a bit too much, if it wasn’t something similar. Humans are not angels and angels are not humans. Perhaps angels felt fond of humans the way humans feel about animals. Perhaps they elevated their attraction to humans to something out of balance with creation. Not perhaps, they did do that. We all have a place in Jehovah’s creation and we should stay in our lane. I know there is so so so much about Jehovah that we have yet to learn, when we are able to take it in. But as the scripture says, we can never know everything about Jehovah.
I am of the opinion that life is life. The difference between types of living things is one of two things (perhaps), expression and/or purpose. There is only one source of life and it is by degrees that it appears to be expressed. In brain death we see life devoid of expression, but several issues are fought out in court over terminating that means of expression. Survivors have well described “locked in” syndrome where they are fully conscious but have no means of expression. Their senses are alive. One might say that every faculty of desire, movement, ambition, past, present, future etc etc is within them and fully alive in every sense of the word. It is measured by electrical responses in the flesh. But how is that generated?

Life forms respond to the purpose given them and within that realm (or limitation) is their completion and experience of life. They wish for no more (if conscious) and are satisfied with their purpose - fulfilled. Some animals are able to interpret the intent of others - danger, fear, love, companionship and some are inquisitive of other life forms and can mimic or perceive intent - elephants, dolphins, apes and dog for example and certainly many others share our senses - mostly domestic animals, but also some birds; parrots, crows jackdaws etc. The above even grieve and have joy. There are even senses of justice within the animal kingdom as well as spite and humour.

Are these not attributes of the spirit? So likewise then, is purpose, part of those attributes and in loving kindness, it appears that life within that purpose is limited in its fulfilment of that purpose. No living form is ambitious above its station and is satisfied within that - except where freedom of choice comes into it. And that is limited to mankind and above it seems. By choice, I refer to ambitions beyond what is assigned to us and includes loyalties and intents etc too numerous to mention, the extent of which is not open to all life forms.

As you rightly say, angels were and probably still are, desirous of our experiences within the range of life’s expression given us. Physical love and Union clearly being one of them. The human body is perfection personified. Yet do some of us - all of us by degrees - desire spiritual fulfilment? That is beyond our body for certain. In fact, for the majority it is not innate. (Thus the sin of those angels that materialised from their purpose). How many of us, given the choice and insight, would rather live a spiritual existence? Of what is desirous in flesh, can not spirit also be desirous? From that we are given little insight, yet clearly some perceive it and desire it and indeed are called to it. So mankind has gifts beyond his power to perceive. Yet it is the same life - but its expression is unlimited it seems. After all. It can materialise in any form it wishes. It is interesting to see the steps in life forms from angels - man - apes. Why did not angels desire apes?

We are then, (perhaps) life in degrees of expression and purpose. What we fear is being unable to express it and to have its purpose removed. There is a clue in the laws of Jehovah that may explain this: Energy dissipates into another form. It does not cease to exist. It can be stored and reused, or be given another purpose. If artificial intelligence as an energy source can be manipulated in such a way as to express reason, then can it be said that this is not so of the Creator? (BTW …. Anthropomorphism is a projection of attachment between different kinds. It can be intuitive, or just wishful thinking, but the bond can be accurately applied depending on the insight of the human. Its reciprocation though is often an illusion of hope and an interpretation of personal insight rather than reality).
 

jay

Well-known member
I am of the opinion that life is life. The difference between types of living things is one of two things (perhaps), expression and/or purpose. There is only one source of life and it is by degrees that it appears to be expressed. In brain death we see life devoid of expression, but several issues are fought out in court over terminating that means of expression. Survivors have well described “locked in” syndrome where they are fully conscious but have no means of expression. Their senses are alive. One might say that every faculty of desire, movement, ambition, past, present, future etc etc is within them and fully alive in every sense of the word. It is measured by electrical responses in the flesh. But how is that generated?

Life forms respond to the purpose given them and within that realm (or limitation) is their completion and experience of life. They wish for no more (if conscious) and are satisfied with their purpose - fulfilled. Some animals are able to interpret the intent of others - danger, fear, love, companionship and some are inquisitive of other life forms and can mimic or perceive intent - elephants, dolphins, apes and dog for example and certainly many others share our senses - mostly domestic animals, but also some birds; parrots, crows jackdaws etc. The above even grieve and have joy. There are even senses of justice within the animal kingdom as well as spite and humour.

Are these not attributes of the spirit? So likewise then, is purpose, part of those attributes and in loving kindness, it appears that life within that purpose is limited in its fulfilment of that purpose. No living form is ambitious above its station and is satisfied within that - except where freedom of choice comes into it. And that is limited to mankind and above it seems. By choice, I refer to ambitions beyond what is assigned to us and includes loyalties and intents etc too numerous to mention, the extent of which is not open to all life forms.

As you rightly say, angels were and probably still are, desirous of our experiences within the range of life’s expression given us. Physical love and Union clearly being one of them. The human body is perfection personified. Yet do some of us - all of us by degrees - desire spiritual fulfilment? That is beyond our body for certain. In fact, for the majority it is not innate. (Thus the sin of those angels that materialised from their purpose). How many of us, given the choice and insight, would rather live a spiritual existence? Of what is desirous in flesh, can not spirit also be desirous? From that we are given little insight, yet clearly some perceive it and desire it and indeed are called to it. So mankind has gifts beyond his power to perceive. Yet it is the same life - but its expression is unlimited it seems. After all. It can materialise in any form it wishes. It is interesting to see the steps in life forms from angels - man - apes. Why did not angels desire apes?

We are then, (perhaps) life in degrees of expression and purpose. What we fear is being unable to express it and to have its purpose removed. There is a clue in the laws of Jehovah that may explain this: Energy dissipates into another form. It does not cease to exist. It can be stored and reused, or be given another purpose. If artificial intelligence as an energy source can be manipulated in such a way as to express reason, then can it be said that this is not so of the Creator? (BTW …. Anthropomorphism is a projection of attachment between different kinds. It can be intuitive, or just wishful thinking, but the bond can be accurately applied depending on the insight of the human. Its reciprocation though is often an illusion of hope and an interpretation of personal insight rather than reality).
I really wish I understood a fraction of what you write. It all sounds good but it flies right over my simplistic brain. "Why did not angels desire apes?" I think there are a lot of women that wouldn't like that comparison.
 

Jahrule

Well-known member
I really wish I understood a fraction of what you write. It all sounds good but it flies right over my simplistic brain. "Why did not angels desire apes?" I think there are a lot of women that wouldn't like that comparison.
I can unfortunately relate. That's one smart dog. I can never follow him. My attention span collapses every time. I just ask AI to explain it to me in a millennial friendly way.

AI, please explain this to me like I'm an idiot. [Pastes in text]....

The passage you provided seems to explore various philosophical and metaphysical ideas about life, consciousness, purpose, and existence. It discusses several key points:​
  1. Life and its Variations: The author suggests that all life is fundamentally the same but can vary in expression and purpose. The differences between living things are attributed to these variations.​
  2. Expression and Purpose: The two main factors that differentiate types of life are expression (how life manifests itself) and purpose (the reason for existence). The author considers these factors in the context of brain death and the ability to express consciousness.​
  3. Consciousness and Expression: The passage discusses the concept of "locked-in" syndrome, where individuals are conscious but unable to express themselves physically. It raises questions about the nature of consciousness and expression.​
  4. Attributes of Spirit: The author speculates that some animal behaviors, such as the ability to interpret intent, display emotions like grief and joy, and exhibit a sense of justice and humor, might be considered attributes of the spirit. This implies a connection between spiritual qualities and the behaviors of certain animals.​
  5. Purpose and Ambition: The passage suggests that living beings are content with their assigned purpose and are satisfied within their limitations unless they possess the freedom of choice to pursue ambitions beyond their station. This choice is said to be unique to mankind.​
  6. Angels and Desire: The author briefly touches on the idea that angels may have desired the experiences of human life, including physical love and union, which led to their materialization.​
  7. Spiritual Fulfillment: The concept of spiritual fulfillment is introduced, with the idea that some individuals desire a spiritual existence beyond the physical. It questions whether spirit can have desires similar to those of the flesh.​
  8. Life in Degrees of Expression and Purpose: The central theme of the passage is the notion that life exists in degrees of expression and purpose, with fear arising from the potential inability to express one's purpose.​
  9. Energy and Transformation: The passage draws a parallel between the laws of Jehovah (possibly referencing the concept of energy transformation) and the potential for artificial intelligence to express reason. It implies that the Creator might also have the ability to manipulate energy in this way.​
  10. Anthropomorphism: The passage briefly discusses anthropomorphism, the projection of human attributes onto other entities, and suggests that it can be a projection of attachment but may not always reflect reality.​
Overall, the passage seems to be a reflection on the nature of life, consciousness, and purpose, weaving together philosophical, spiritual, and metaphysical ideas to explore these concepts. It touches on questions related to the human experience, the potential for different forms of existence, and the role of desire and purpose in life.​
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I really wish I understood a fraction of what you write. It all sounds good but it flies right over my simplistic brain. "Why did not angels desire apes?" I think there are a lot of women that wouldn't like that comparison.
I was making the point about the excellence in man’s creation. There is not much to distinguish between apes and mankind physically is there? Apes may seem ugly to us, but the similarity in expression and basic thinking, nurturing and home making is all there to see for those whom have eyes as any basic thinking evolutionist will tell you. The similarities in body form is remarkable - almost a parody - there is a lesson there for us to be sure.

Yet there is no record of angels interfering with apes is there? So intellectual response, elegance in manner, refinement in the attributes of the spirit, beauty in form, intelligence, empathy - all these things are appealing to angels, as they are to both men and women - though as you point out, both sexes can make appalling mistakes in choosing a partner. Yet life itself is a different matter - there are regimented levels in its interpretation and expression. Apes do not experience the fullness of life that we do, yet going the other way, mankind can anthropomorphise and impose such thinking upon lower life forms. It appears then that though physical perfection in expressing life is given to all forms of life by Jehovah, that life is expressed in degrees of perception - as the bible says, each according to its kind.

Angels can reason with man, can they not? (Even a donkey when given the wit to do so the bible tells us). Mankind can understand what Satan‘s motive was as well. As has been mentioned already, by Robert, angels have a yet higher insight than we do, and are aware of yet more but within our own experience of life, certain levels of intelligence are appreciated in different ways and the more so in the expression of the attributes given us, between sexes. If you like, there was the allure of mankind insofar as angels were concerned. It’s only my conjecture by the way. As I said, I see the body as a means of expression for the life given it. I may well be wrong- I hope not though! An interesting point though - we are of the same life that was given Adam are we not? It is passed on by the male, not made anew. It is the body that is formed around it that is new when the genetic code is completed via the female - it “becomes a living thing” - a means of expression then?
 

DR75 less 1

Well-known member
those whom have eyes as any basic thinking evolutionist will tell you.

Not that any thinking individual would believe what an evolutionist says.

As I said, I see the body as a means of expression for the life given it.

Interesting view. Do you know what you mean? You did say "I hope not though" ( that you're wrong ).
Right or wrong we have our views.

I admit that I don't know what you mean. I have trouble saying that we are of the same life that was given Adam. I will say that each human born is a new life different from those who produced the new born. A new creation. even. but consisting of the components coming from the same elements and compounds as the parents. New in the sense that the new born is a separate individual a different life was formed in the womb.

The dust of the ground together with the breath of life "...and man came to be a living soul." or breather.
Just my view right or wrong..
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Not that any thinking individual would believe what an evolutionist says.



Interesting view. Do you know what you mean? You did say "I hope not though" ( that you're wrong ).
Right or wrong we have our views.

I admit that I don't know what you mean. I have trouble saying that we are of the same life that was given Adam. I will say that each human born is a new life different from those who produced the new born. A new creation. even. but consisting of the components coming from the same elements and compounds as the parents. New in the sense that the new born is a separate individual a different life was formed in the womb.

The dust of the ground together with the breath of life "...and man came to be a living soul." or breather.
Just my view right or wrong..
I do not claim to have particular knowledge in the subject, though I am sure of what I describe. I hope to be fluent but I am old and lacking in many processes now - maybe articulation is one of them. Sad to say, I am my own censor in that regard. But I hope to God I know what I’m saying, as you ask, otherwise I‘m totally demented and living in cloud cuckoo land. (What’s that, that just “flew over my nest”???).

I’m sure many can argue the point on life and its source and it’s good that they should. I certainly am not adverse to being educated and I find it fruitless to be stubborn in my opinion because like anyone else, I wish for knowledge that is true. And I certainly welcome your challenge to explain.

To clarify my thinking: I have listened to life and education as time has passed me by - especially what I have learnt from the bible. Though I do not dispense with “worldly” knowledge - who would willingly….it’s amazing …- I take the bible as the ultimate authority when it is clear (to me, I hasten to add). It cannot be faulted by the best scientist. Rather, it is proved.

As far as biology is concerned, life is extant in the male sperm. The female ovum is inert. As both donors are living, why should that be necessary if the foetus automatically comes to life when the biologically charged cells unite? Life is already extant in the sperm but not the ovum. How is it then that on uniting, life, already extant in the sperm, ignites, for want of a better word, life in the female DNA. For that matter, one may ask if the male‘s DNA is any more alive than that of the female and it is the means of transport that is “alive”. What gives it direction and purpose for one thing? But certainly, one cannot unite inert male/female DNA and suddenly life is created, can they? Thus there must be a process of life coming to expression. Common fertility treatment tells us that much. If it were an evolutionary process, surely both donors cells would be alive? After all, each contributor to the evolutionary process would be responsible for the development of its own reproductive development would they not? (Strange how they compliment each other?Question for evolutionists). Evolution would not provide for an inert process of conception would it. (I have not looked into self fertilisation as in the case of some amphibians).

Clearly, whatever the process in progress, change, education and self determination - its foundation and design has yet to be discovered. If the bible is true, the suggestion is that Jehovah rested from His creation activities. Thus reproduction is either a process that He set in motion, or each life He is still creating anew. As far as I understand it, that cannot be the case. In support of that, biology tells us that the construct of the human body is unique to each. Given the infinite combinations of DNA eight billion individual souls in earth is no difficulty, yet each lives within the range of human normality unless there is a disablement in that process. Why? Senses, values, faith, love all the attributes of the spirit are extant in each one regardless of cultural variation. We all have the same values in past present and future too. How can these ethereal facets be inherited?

Far more likely is it that life is inherited and that the means of expression - the infinite definition of humanity through perception via the organs of brain and heart are what is perceived as the “life” of the person. ”The soul that is sinning, that itself will die”. The body though can be resurrected and abandoned, as in the case of Christ. The body can be “materialised“ too, as with Christ. What was it that was restored then to Lazarus? If it was a new life/body, then where was his memory formed on resurrection. What life experience is it that Jehovah keeps safe? Would Jehovah create a new spirit for His son when he loved and made the original? It really does not bear thinking about.

To me, this is what I draw from the bible and the supporting biological understanding that Jehovah created. As you rightly quote, “the dust of the ground and the “breath of life”. Two items. I’m not claiming to be right, only a willingness to discuss and come to an answer. Borean-style so to speak. 👍
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I can unfortunately relate. That's one smart dog. I can never follow him. My attention span collapses every time. I just ask AI to explain it to me in a millennial friendly way.

AI, please explain this to me like I'm an idiot. [Pastes in text]....

Friends. I had no idea. I feel I must explain if you think I am “smart” though I do not want to draw attention to my difficulties. I am normal, but I have autism. This is my world. I had it long before it was given a name. I live a secluded life now, and life was just hell having to associate with others to work, let alone trying to live the watchtower way. My wife translates the world to me and “goes before‘ me so to speak. My life revolves around sciences, reading, writing. Social work, my release in life, was one long delve into professional empathy in understanding clinical aberrations of the mind, thinking, expression, avoidance, despair and everything that goes with it and of course, the dreadful side of it all that Watchtower stoop to. I got far more problems from “normal“ managers above me than I did from my various client groups. Apparently, they wanted me to lie to “save money” or say the ”right” thing. I always did what was right but for some reason they said not.

Believe me when I say that I find it really difficult to understand the point of view of others. My world is black and white - that which I can understand. The rest is just a complete mess. If you met me face to face all you would see is a morose looking guy in the corner trying to avoid contact and wanting to be elsewhere. If you texted me, you would get a reply - a long one. It’s my main form of communication as I don’t have to negotiate words. At least Jahrule you have opened up the possibility of having a conversation with AI, as it seems very conversational, though limited, like recycled words without a point to them. I would however, far rather converse with the brethren here though, but few make a reply - I can see why now. It’s a false impression though. You assume much upon me that I just don’t have. In many areas I am as ignorant as hell. I Know nothing about a huge range of human activity and even less about why people do various things, such as from dancing to vacuous pastimes like going to the moon. I would far rather remove a cyst from someone’s brain or spend a year down the pit at CERN bending time and shooting at atoms. That is worth the while. I would look for the “God particle“ as I know where to go for it! Head knowledge is no more than academia though. It’s no great thing. It should not put one above the other. Insight and application is the true knowledge but is also nothing, truly, unless with it are expressed the attributes of the spirit and that these attributes, form the basis of negotiation with our fellow man. That is where the “smart” is. The recognition of the creator and His values. It’s roadway paved with the attributes of the spirit, the very foundation of which, legitimises our existence in His way. “With all that you acquire, acquire understanding.”

Well, there is my “introduction”. I can’t say I wanted to explain, but I am no ‘smart’ person, just a different one. If I could stop thinking and turn my brain off I would be blessed but my mind is never silent. Unless I am fixed on a matter, my train of thought covers every subject along a never ending set of railway points each one leading to a different place at a different time in a different subject. Your normality is not mine and from what I understand, my normality is not normal at all for you guys. I can see you, but you don’t see me! Odd. To say the least. 👍
 

Jahrule

Well-known member
Friends. I had no idea. I feel I must explain if you think I am “smart” though I do not want to draw attention to my difficulties. I am normal, but I have autism. This is my world. I had it long before it was given a name. I live a secluded life now, and life was just hell having to associate with others to work, let alone trying to live the watchtower way. My wife translates the world to me and “goes before‘ me so to speak. My life revolves around sciences, reading, writing. Social work, my release in life, was one long delve into professional empathy in understanding clinical aberrations of the mind, thinking, expression, avoidance, despair and everything that goes with it and of course, the dreadful side of it all that Watchtower stoop to. I got far more problems from “normal“ managers above me than I did from my various client groups. Apparently, they wanted me to lie to “save money” or say the ”right” thing. I always did what was right but for some reason they said not.

Believe me when I say that I find it really difficult to understand the point of view of others. My world is black and white - that which I can understand. The rest is just a complete mess. If you met me face to face all you would see is a morose looking guy in the corner trying to avoid contact and wanting to be elsewhere. If you texted me, you would get a reply - a long one. It’s my main form of communication as I don’t have to negotiate words. At least Jahrule you have opened up the possibility of having a conversation with AI, as it seems very conversational, though limited, like recycled words without a point to them. I would however, far rather converse with the brethren here though, but few make a reply - I can see why now. It’s a false impression though. You assume much upon me that I just don’t have. In many areas I am as ignorant as hell. I Know nothing about a huge range of human activity and even less about why people do various things, such as from dancing to vacuous pastimes like going to the moon. I would far rather remove a cyst from someone’s brain or spend a year down the pit at CERN bending time and shooting at atoms. That is worth the while. I would look for the “God particle“ as I know where to go for it! Head knowledge is no more than academia though. It’s no great thing. It should not put one above the other. Insight and application is the true knowledge but is also nothing, truly, unless with it are expressed the attributes of the spirit and that these attributes, form the basis of negotiation with our fellow man. That is where the “smart” is. The recognition of the creator and His values. It’s roadway paved with the attributes of the spirit, the very foundation of which, legitimises our existence in His way. “With all that you acquire, acquire understanding.”

Well, there is my “introduction”. I can’t say I wanted to explain, but I am no ‘smart’ person, just a different one. If I could stop thinking and turn my brain off I would be blessed but my mind is never silent. Unless I am fixed on a matter, my train of thought covers every subject along a never ending set of railway points each one leading to a different place at a different time in a different subject. Your normality is not mine and from what I understand, my normality is not normal at all for you guys. I can see you, but you don’t see me! Odd. To say the least. 👍
Trust me. I get it. I grew up with Tourette syndrome, so I stayed away from other people. I am still more comfortable alone than in a big group. It seems we are all related in more ways than one. Still, you are one of my favorite posters here, Barn. Never change.
 

DR75 less 1

Well-known member
Thus reproduction is either a process that He set in motion,

I can't fault that thinking. The new born is a procreation ( whatever that means ) I'll go with that word But.

What was it that was restored then to Lazarus?

Assuming any restoration took place? Lazarus was not sleeping for long. Jesus just woke him up. So he slept in, big deal. It may simply be a case of the "breath of life" being revisited on Lazarus, since the duct of the ground had not lost its form. Regardless Jesus' power was sufficiently demonstrated on that particular occasion. and Jehovah was glorified.

A corpse can remain for many days I suspect before the earth reclaims the elements that make it up, so there was no need for Jesus to "re-create" Lazarus.

Getting back to the sperm and egg being alive in the Man and woman respectively has been shown by science to be the case. But some scientists only acknowledge life ( I would say ) New Life to be at the merging of the sperm and egg ( Embryo ). This is where I go off the rails a bit/lot?

That "we are of the same life as Adam" as you say, I'm not saying that is wrong. I'm not going along with it because I don't know what you mean.

What I would speculate is that even although the embryo is thought of as a life while still in the mother's womb. It does not become a "living Soul" until it gets the breath of life or until it becomes a breather.

I would also speculate that every living organism cannot exist without Jehovah. I would go as far as saying we need to be connected to Jehovah constantly. If the connection breaks for whatever reason we stop existing as "living souls" The Christ can and does already exist without Jehovah, and a select number will soon join him as immortal beings..

My views right or wrong.
 
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Cathii

Well-known member
I think you have the edge on the conversation. STI has some modern day moralistic points but the problem is that one cannot make a spiritual conclusion on something that is not written. Especially so when the opposite is written clearly. Thus we cannot read the mind of Jehovah. From my own perspective, I don’t like to kill anything. In fact, I still carry guilt for wantonly killing a sparrow and the horror of seeing my father kill a nest of starlings in a bucket of water. Yet, I can eat meat with no worries about the animal I did not see slaughtered. It’s a contradiction in terms that I have never sought to rationalise because it just is that way with me. And it is because the bible simply says we can eat meat.

What I did rationalise in thinking the matter through, is the question of what life is. That appears to be the crux of the matter, not the meat attached to it. What was it that Jehovah “breathed” into the nostrils of the inert body of Adam and that brought the machine that was his body into perceptive consciousness and that could express or animate the substance of ”life” that was breathed into him. Clearly the two are separate.

If that truly is the case, then we are to fathom the same degree of awareness upon the animal body as our own and that we enjoy ourselves, seemingly within the complete range of our own abilities? We see many facets of perception in animals that we ourselves enjoy, some in singular form even more advantageous in one respect than our own, such as sight in an extended range of the light spectrum. Necessary for the animal, but not for us though. Odd, is it not? Why?

If we take into account - and this is an area STI has not considered in the matter - the projected time-span for the prophesy uttered in the garden, it is necessary for the food source to be extended laterally across the creation if the prophesy is to reach its fulfilment in the allotted span. This includes the maximum provision for the maximum amount of lives to be supported. Even now, more than one third of the world population is underfed. So in consideration of bringing the system to its conclusion within the prophesy of the “day” then meat is a necessity. It is interesting to note that Jehovah Himself enjoys the “restful odour” of roast lamb and even to the point of the fact that the “fatty parts” hold the most flavour. Jehovah had animals sacrificed well before the flood. The intrinsic values of life and its expressive forms must therefore be considered as to values congruent with the creators values if we are to reason productively rather than argue.

This must surely bring into contention then, the above point of life as an independent entity, and the means of expression given it in bodily form for the conceptual boundaries of awareness to be be measured, restricted or fully given and enjoyed. This is demonstrated in all given life forms from vegetation through to angels. Even plants respond to stimuli. But more! Even natural law can be manipulated in its manifestation - bend your own light with magnetism and vary time by the same process. Are laws of nature “alive”? Why not ask the question?

It is best to leave what is written alone. We are given meat to eat. Eat it then. Who would not give meat to a starving child? Why question the quality and gift of Jehovah’s provision? “When we ask our father for food, does he give us a stone to eat?” Even today, vegans suffer from depletion in nutrients just as meat eaters suffer from other ailments. Who would trade their life for a principle? That is the question. The ultimate principle is in the blood, so the bible says. Pour that out, and eat the carcass. Jehovah provides birds for that purpose too. It’s odd, is it not, that the same principle was first found in a fruit upon a tree all those years ago and we still argue over it. Perhaps we should just not eat at all.
Burt.. my sister decided I needed a pet. She showed me pics of cats and dogs, that she wanted to bring home something to keep me company.. Being afraid she would bring home a giraffe, or octopus or something, I bought a canary... He sings his little head off. I named him after you , "Burt", whatever you change your name to, you will always be" Burt "to me...
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Burt.. my sister decided I needed a pet. She showed me pics of cats and dogs, that she wanted to bring home something to keep me company.. Being afraid she would bring home a giraffe, or octopus or something, I bought a canary... He sings his little head off. I named him after you , "Burt", whatever you change your name to, you will always be" Burt "to me...
How kind of you Cathii. I hope you are getting on well. We don’t hear as much as we should do from you. Keep on going.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I can't fault that thinking. The new born is a procreation ( whatever that means ) I'll go with that word But.



Assuming any restoration took place? Lazarus was not sleeping for long. Jesus just woke him up. So he slept in, big deal. It may simply be a case of the "breath of life" being revisited on Lazarus, since the duct of the ground had not lost its form. Regardless Jesus' power was sufficiently demonstrated on that particular occasion. and Jehovah was glorified.

A corpse can remain for many days I suspect before the earth reclaims the elements that make it up, so there was no need for Jesus to "re-create" Lazarus.

Getting back to the sperm and egg being alive in the Man and woman respectively has been shown by science to be the case. But some scientists only acknowledge life ( I would say ) New Life to be at the merging of the sperm and egg ( Embryo ). This is where I go off the rails a bit/lot?

That "we are of the same life as Adam" as you say, I'm not saying that is wrong. I'm not going along with it because I don't know what you mean.

What I would speculate is that even although the embryo is thought of as a life while still in the mother's womb. It does not become a "living Soul" until it gets the breath of life or until it becomes a breather.

I would also speculate that every living organism cannot exist without Jehovah. I would go as far as saying we need to be connected to Jehovah constantly. If the connection breaks for whatever reason we stop existing as "living souls" The Christ can and does already exist without Jehovah, and a select number will soon join him as immortal beings..

My views right or wrong.
I entertain no thoughts of trying to persuade you to my way of thinking DR. I simply am putting forward a hypothesis for argument/discussion. I admit I am confused that you should hang on to opinions be they “right or wrong”. Surely one would want to be correct? That is the whole point of challenging watchtower is it not? They hold on to views “right or wrong”. By that, I do not mean to imply that I am correct in my hypothesis on life. Obviously if I am wrong, I would like to know about it and change my outlook. It’s free to do so. As for Lazarus, or any body, there is a short interval open for retrieval of life via the means to express it. By that I refer to cellular functional abilities, especially in the brain. In ordinary temperatures, brain cells will survive without oxygen for three minutes or so or up to twenty or so depending on various medical issues. Likewise the heart, in the brains ability to pace it. Three days in a hot climate such as Israel would require a new body. Of that you may be sure. BTW, Was it not Lazarus’ wife that said that her husbands body would be smelling by now, when Jesus came to see him? That should give a clue as to its condition.
 
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DR75 less 1

Well-known member
I entertain no thoughts of trying to persuade you to my way of thinking DR. I simply am putting forward a hypothesis for argument/discussion.

We're free to express our views on this forum, whether they're right or wrong. As long as we don't purposely try to mislead others and/or as RK put it have an agenda. Like you I'm putting forth an argument. Robert said say whatever is on your mind. If my putting up a challenge offends anyone that is their problem.

Surely one would want to be correct?

If we're correct Jehovah can be praised. If we're not correct then we get the credit. Move on and check others views and see if they they can fill in the blanks as you allude to. I own what I say right or wrong. if I am proven to be wrong, I have no problem acknowledging it and to revise my thinking. we don't need to be right. all of the time.

As for Lazarus, or any body, there is a short interval open for retrieval of life via the means to express it. By that I refer to cellular functional abilities, especially in the brain. In ordinary temperatures, brain cells will survive without oxygen for three minutes or so or up to twenty or so depending on various medical issues. Likewise the heart, in the brains ability to pace it. Three days in a hot climate such as Israel would require a new body.

You raise some good points. But we still don't know what the exact conditions were at the time of Lazarus' death we can only assume what they were and. Maybe the body was too far gone. We just don't know.

Anyway this Lazarus and sperm and egg is beside the point I was more interested in what you meant by the following.

"I see the body as a means of expression for the life given it. I may well be wrong- I hope not though! An interesting point though - we are of the same life that was given Adam are we not?" If you know what you mean, maybe you can fill me in. You're either right or wrong.

I'm not seeing it, especially the last bit about being of the same life that was given Adam.

But I will say that like Adam, we cannot exist without Jehovah And like Adam we're built with the same kind of parts. ie we're from the dust of the ground and if and/or when we croak we go back to ground like Adam did..
 

DavidCJ

Well-known member
what if there were studies that showed being on a cannibalistic diet improved health... should people implement that for the sake of pure personal health, or consider how their actions of intake affect others?
There is a line that has to be drawn. You made an argument way earlier the most farmed animals are slaughtered in an unethical way and I can see that. But again the point is not all. The strong insistence on your side leads me to believe that you have a personal stake in this and I think some of us here are trying to tell you "Quit it!" but in a nice way.

I personally have felt what you and @StopTheInsanity felt when I went to live in a rural area. I dislike even digging up the ground, and cutting trees. Yet I did because the original Constitution(the Bible) gives me the right to do so, that the whole earth is under subjection to us. The silly argument about whether eating animals are ethical or not dies when you are on an island fighting for survival. Watch Survival Island with Bear Grylls. The women team had vegans and vegetarians and they dropped it all when the hunger set in.

Yes, don't revel in killing and don't waste it, that's how we honor their sacrifice. But I know most of us here don't show psychotic behavior. If you talk to Native Indians they also don't play around regarding the subject. They have no qualms about killing animals for food, but they use almost all parts of the carcass and they have deep reverence for them.

Let's look at the extreme side of this whole animal rights movement. They harm humans in pushing their agenda. I will tell you definitely that Jehovah will not approve of their actions.

That's why these matters are a matter of conscience and something we shouldn't be so headstrong on. You do you, and I'll do me.
 
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Cathii

Well-known member
Case in point, David... my husband was/is NA . We lived on a boat off Key West for 11 years. If we acquired a fish to eat or crab, he would pray and give thanks to the fish for its life, and then put an ice-pick right through the head, fast and accurately, before he cleaned it and cooked it. He was also taught by his tribe that God had a name, which I can't pronounce in Miccosukee, and there is God and his son..He loved the truth in the Bible and thanked Jehovah aloud all the time for the creation. We really had a beautiful life out there..
Then I witnessed these lobster guys come down in swarms every year, pick up a live lobster and rip the tail off and toss the body in the ocean with these creatures screaming in pain. Ever hear a lobster scream?
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Case in point, David... my husband was/is NA . We lived on a boat off Key West for 11 years. If we acquired a fish to eat or crab, he would pray and give thanks to the fish for its life, and then put an ice-pick right through the head, fast and accurately, before he cleaned it and cooked it. He was also taught by his tribe that God had a name, which I can't pronounce in Miccosukee, and there is God and his son..He loved the truth in the Bible and thanked Jehovah aloud all the time for the creation. We really had a beautiful life out there..
Then I witnessed these lobster guys come down in swarms every year, pick up a live lobster and rip the tail off and toss the body in the ocean with these creatures screaming in pain. Ever hear a lobster scream?
Nice points. Another point is that each animal and fish that we eat has parts that we don’t eat but that can still be put to great use. For example I used to have an aquaponics setup in my backyard where I grew tomatoes in the grow bed and fish in the tank. The water was cycled to not only water the tomato plants, but the fish water also fertilizes the plants and very little water evaporates. I would eat the Tilapia, which are very difficult to kill and I never enjoyed doing it but I did enjoy eating fresh Tilapia. All parts of the fish that I didn’t eat, I fermented with seaweed and molasses and made a wonderful probiotic fertilizer for the land. Literally nothing went to waste and I treated the fish as humanely as I could. The cycle of living things turning into organic matter and then being absorbed by plants is a cycle that Jehovah put into place and it works perfectly.
 

robins

Well-known member
There is a line that has to be drawn. You made an argument way earlier the most carnivores are slaughtered in an unethical way and I can see that. But again the point is not all. The strong insistence on your side leads me to believe that you have a personal stake in this and I think some of us here are trying to tell you "Quit it!" but in a nice way.

I personally have felt what you and @StopTheInsanity felt when I went to live in a rural area. I dislike even digging up the ground, and cutting trees. Yet I did because the original Constitution(the Bible) gives me the right to do so, that the whole earth is under subjection to us. The silly argument about whether eating animals are ethical or not dies when you are on an island fighting for survival. Watch Survival Island with Bear Grylls. The women team had vegans and vegetarians and they dropped it all when the hunger set in.

Yes, don't revel in killing and don't waste it, that's how we honor their sacrifice. But I know most of us here if not all don't have psychotic tendencies like that. If you talk to Native Indians they also don't play around regarding the subject. They have no qualms about killing animals for food, but they use almost all parts of the carcass and they have deep reverence for them.

Let's look at the extreme side of this whole animal rights movement. They harm humans in pushing their agenda. I will tell you definitely that Jehovah will not approve of their actions.

That's why these matters are a matter of conscience and something we shouldn't be so headstrong on. You do you, and I'll do me.
I think you're missing my point. I agree that there are societies in history and current circumstances that necessitate killing and causing suffering for survival. My point is that most of us in the modern day western world have the relatively new and unique fortunate option to have food choices that promote compassion. I don't think any of us would want to be eaten or have one of our family members eaten by another animal, it would be scary and painful and devastating to those left behind. I don't think animals see the world in the same way we do, but to deny they feel pain or have emotion has little basis with modern understanding. In terms of me having a "personal stake" i guess i just don't think it's kind to hurt other creatures if it's not necessary/ I agree with you that some animal activists can be extreme, but that is the case with activists for many causes which wasn't my argument. I where we do differ is that I don't view unnecessary killing as a matter of conscience, same as i don't view kicking a puppy as a matter of conscience, it just seems mean. Being entrusted with the earth and animals can be likened to man being entrusted with caring for his wife - not for him to do as he pleases, but to show care and compassion.
 
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DavidCJ

Well-known member
We should even tone down the criticism regarding animal abuse.

In a functioning(emphasis on the word) human justice system, the severity of the punishment for a crime is dependent not only the severity of the crime(murder vs robbery vs, assault), but intent.

In layman's terms it's basically like this:
1st degree - You did it with careful planning and knowing full well in advance what you were doing
2nd degree - You could have stopped the fight in advance but had hated the person before which led you to this place

One might say a third degree is where the victim of the murder forced the defendent to act in such a way. A robbery gone wrong for example.

Jehovah's laws are essentially the same. He says regarding teachers, the punishment will be more severe. More responsibility, more consequences for being wrong.

Crime against humans are undoubtedly and incomparably the greatest crime you can commit, because of this very fact. We are not only made in the image of our God but have full conscience and are aware of ourselves. There's a well-known adage "fools are happy". They don't know as much, so they are burdened with less of reality.

Therefore, it is also humans that will suffer and are conscious of most when they are victims of crime. Any other creatures are lower on that category.
 
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