About circumcision & eunuchs.

[PJ54]

I've been thinking about why the issues were so important back in the old covenant. Consider the law:

(Deuteronomy 23:1) 23 “No man who has been castrated by having his testicles crushed or who has had his male organ cut off may come into the congregation of Jehovah.

(Leviticus 12:1-3) 12 Jehovah went on to say to Moses: 2 “Tell the Israelites, ‘If a woman becomes pregnant and gives birth to a male, she will be unclean for seven days, just as she is in the days of the impurity when she is menstruating. 3 On the eighth day, the flesh of his foreskin will be circumcised.

These were laws that had to be followed. However, when Christ came & the 1st century congregation came along things have changed. Consider:

(Matthew 19:10-12) 10 The disciples said to him: “If that is the situation of a man with his wife, it is not advisable to marry.” 11 He said to them: “Not all men make room for the saying, but only those who have the gift. 12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who were made eunuchs by men, and there are eunuchs who have made themselves eunuchs on account of the Kingdom of the heavens. Let the one who can make room for it make room for it.”

(Galatians 5:7-12) 7 You were running well. Who hindered you from continuing to obey the truth? 8 This sort of persuasion does not come from the One calling you. 9 A little leaven ferments the whole batch of dough. 10 I am confident that you who are in union with the Lord will not come to think otherwise; but the one who is causing you trouble, whoever he may be, will receive the judgment he deserves. 11 As for me, brothers, if I am still preaching circumcision, why am I still being persecuted? In that case the stumbling block of the torture stake has been eliminated. 12 I wish the men who are trying to unsettle you would emasculate themselves.

The attitude towards these things have taken a 180. I decided to look on the Watchtower Library & came across this:

*** ip-2 chap. 17 pp. 249-252 Foreigners Gathered to God’s House of Prayer ***
Comfort for the Foreigner and the Eunuch
6 Jehovah now addresses two groups who want to serve him but who under the Mosaic Law are disqualified from coming into the Jewish congregation. We read: “Let not the foreigner that has joined himself to Jehovah say, ‘Without doubt Jehovah will divide me off from his people.’ Neither let the eunuch say, ‘Look! I am a dry tree.’” (Isaiah 56:3) The foreigner’s fear is that he will be cut off from Israel. The eunuch’s concern is that he will never have children to preserve his name. Both groups should take courage. Before we see why, let us consider what standing they have under the Law in relation to the nation of Israel.
7 Uncircumcised foreigners are excluded from sharing in worship with Israel. For example, they are not allowed to partake of the Passover. (Exodus 12:43) Foreigners who do not flagrantly break the laws of the land enjoy justice and hospitality, but they have no permanent ties with the nation. Of course, some fully embrace the Law, and as a sign of this, the men get circumcised. Then they are proselytes, privileged to worship in the courtyard of Jehovah’s house and considered a part of the congregation of Israel. (Leviticus 17:10-14; 20:2; 24:22) However, even proselytes are not full participants in Jehovah’s covenant with Israel, and they have no land inheritance in the Promised Land. Other foreigners may turn to the temple in prayer, and evidently they may offer sacrifices through the priesthood as long as the sacrifices conform to the Law. (Leviticus 22:25; 1 Kings 8:41-43) But Israelites are not to associate closely with them.

Eunuchs Receive a Name to Time Indefinite
8 Eunuchs, even if they are born of Jewish parents, are denied full membership of the nation of Israel. (Deuteronomy 23:1) Among some pagan nations of Bible times, eunuchs had a special place and it was the custom to castrate some of the children taken captive in war. Eunuchs were appointed as officials in the royal courts. A eunuch might be a “guardian of the women,” a “guardian of the concubines,” or an attendant of the queen. (Esther 2:3, 12-15; 4:4-6, 9) There is no evidence that the Israelites followed such practices or that eunuchs were specially sought out for employment in the service of Israelite kings.
9 In addition to being able to share in only a limited way in the worship of the true God, physical eunuchs in Israel suffer the great humiliation of being unable to father children to carry on their family name. How comforting, then, are the next words of the prophecy! We read: “This is what Jehovah has said to the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths and that have chosen what I have delighted in and that are laying hold of my covenant: ‘I will even give to them in my house and within my walls a monument and a name, something better than sons and daughters. A name to time indefinite I shall give them, one that will not be cut off.’”—Isaiah 56:4, 5.

Obviously the Law was a temporary arrangement for what would be greater, and that was Christ Jesus. However, the question I have is why even have these arrangements to begin with? I came across some information on eunuchs that if a male were to be castrated before prepuberty, they would develop to look androgynous or feminine. The nations in the past have used such court officials for many things like protecting harams & other things. What came to shock me is that in some cases, is that the eunuchs (particularly the ones that were castrated to keep their young aspects & look feminine) were treated like concubines where the nobles would engage in homosexual activity with them (perhaps political favors were part of it or it's how their brains rewired themselves due to physical & hormonal changes, who knows?). Here's some links on the subject:

https://people.well.com/user/aquarius/section3.htm#N4

Eunuch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Eunuchs and the Postgender Jesus.pdf

drive.google.com

Sacred Androgyny & the Bible

At its core–is a mystic male-female state.

medium.com

 

[PJ54]

I have developed a hypothesis if possible a theory on the matter. Circumcision was used as a means to discourage homosexuality between men since it would incur much pain. God knew that the nation of Israel would have to face this way of life amongst the Canaanites & the need to promote circumcision & not allow eunuchs in the congregation in order to protect His people from that way of life. It sounds crazy but bear in mind Israel was the only nation to have the Law whereas the gentiles everywhere else did as they pleased. Is this too far fetched though?

 

[kirmmy]

I have developed a hypothesis if possible a theory on the matter. Circumcision was used as a means to discourage homosexuality between men since it would incur much pain. God knew that the nation of Israel would have to face this way of life amongst the Canaanites & the need to promote circumcision & not allow eunuchs in the congregation in order to protect His people from that way of life. It sounds crazy but bear in mind Israel was the only nation to have the Law whereas the gentiles everywhere else did as they pleased. Is this too far fetched though?

That doesn't make sense to me. Circumcision is an outward symbol of being a "chosen one of God" at the time of the Abrahamic covenant. It didn't kill you or cause sexual dysfunction and yet was visible if you really wanted to check. Having to do with the genitals it showed God's forebearance for even allowing imperfect humans to reproduce...? 🤷‍♂️

I don't think it had anything to do with homosexuality.

Regarding the prohibition on eunichs...I don't know. It seemed a bit harsh but eunichs can't reproduce and that was a very important function for the Israelites. The family line of Christ came through the Jews and there must have been some excitement among the Isrealites regarding whether Christ would come through their family line.

It would be interesting to have RK comment on this if he gets a chance.

 

[The God Pill]

Circumcision was practiced by Egyptian priests Jehovah told the Israelites they would be a kingdom of priests if they behaved themselves. There is genesis adjacent apocrypha that claims oddly enough that angels are created circumcised. I can't pretend to understand circumcision as it seems to conflict with there being any point in human males having foreskins in the first place but I don't question the creator I'm sure we'll understand why he instructed Abraham on it in the new system.

 

[Nomex]

When it comes to circumcision I think it came down to one thing and one thing only. When Jehovah gave that commandment, he had sent Abraham or Abram, into the wilderness/desert. Not much water, and certainly no running water. So it was literally for cleanliness.


To illustrate this and I really wish I could not write what I am about to write, but my Father-in-Law who was European born in 1930, was not circumcised. He was born in an Eastern European country and this was the time of WWII, that is he grew up during WWII. I suppose they had little access to running water, plus very cold in the winter. He unfortunately never developed "western hygiene" and continue to bath only at most once a week, and I suspect less because of what I am about to explain. He lived most of his life in a southern hot climate in the US. In his old age, at least close to 80, rather than change his hygiene habits, he got circumcised. There is one reason and one reason only, an old reprobate of 80 gets snipped. Hygiene. He was getting infections....I'll just leave it at that! Oh and my wife was sworn to secrecy to never tell anyone, fortunately I wasn't and she told me!!!!! LOL. Or maybe I should say unfortunately she told me.

 

[PJ54]

That doesn't make sense to me. Circumcision is an outward symbol of being a "chosen one of God" at the time of the Abrahamic covenant. It didn't kill you or cause sexual dysfunction and yet was visible if you really wanted to check. Having to do with the genitals it showed God's forebearance for even allowing imperfect humans to reproduce...? 🤷‍♂️

I don't think it had anything to do with homosexuality.

Regarding the prohibition on eunichs...I don't know. It seemed a bit harsh but eunichs can't reproduce and that was a very important function for the Israelites. The family line of Christ came through the Jews and there must have been some excitement among the Isrealites regarding whether Christ would come through their family line.

It would be interesting to have RK comment on this if he gets a chance.

Forgive me for mentioning this but I unfortunately learned from the alphabet folks that uncut was desirable to the men. Apparently it makes sinning more bearable since being cut meant things would be rather rough down there during the act of biological heresy. No doubt there were other purposes to the arrangement. I remember when studying when my teacher & I went on the subject of birthdays & he pointed out to how when a mother gave birth, she was considered unclean & a sacrifice was required as the Law dictated. The idea he mentioned is that this law might have been intended so the Israelites wouldn't adopt the customs of birthdays. Mind you it was conjecture yet a possibility.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Forgive me for mentioning this but I unfortunately learned from the alphabet folks that uncut was desirable to the men. Apparently it makes sinning more bearable since being cut meant things would be rather rough down there during the act of biological heresy. No doubt there were other purposes to the arrangement. I remember when studying when my teacher & I went on the subject of birthdays & he pointed out to how when a mother gave birth, she was considered unclean & a sacrifice was required as the Law dictated. The idea he mentioned is that this law might have been intended so the Israelites wouldn't adopt the customs of birthdays. Mind you it was conjecture yet a possibility.

“Act of biological heresy” !!! Thanks going in my dictionary AND my diary. Brilliant.🤣

 

[PJ54]

When it comes to circumcision I think it came down to one thing and one thing only. When Jehovah gave that commandment, he had sent Abraham or Abram, into the wilderness/desert. Not much water, and certainly no running water. So it was literally for cleanliness.


To illustrate this and I really wish I could not write what I am about to write, but my Father-in-Law who was European born in 1930, was not circumcised. He was born in an Eastern European country and this was the time of WWII, that is he grew up during WWII. I suppose they had little access to running water, plus very cold in the winter. He unfortunately never developed "western hygiene" and continue to bath only at most once a week, and I suspect less because of what I am about to explain. He lived most of his life in a southern hot climate in the US. In his old age, at least close to 80, rather than change his hygiene habits, he got circumcised. There is one reason and one reason only, an old reprobate of 80 gets snipped. Hygiene. He was getting infections....I'll just leave it at that! Oh and my wife was sworn to secrecy to never tell anyone, fortunately I wasn't and she told me!!!!! LOL. Or maybe I should say unfortunately she told me.

No doubt not having access to a shower made things rough. I hate the idea of not taking a show for more than 2 days.

 

[kirmmy]

No doubt not having access to a shower made things rough. I hate the idea of not taking a show for more than 2 days.

I have a shower weekly...whether I need it or not. I'm particular that way.

BTW, on the gay stuff...TMI.

 

[PJ54]

I have a shower weekly...whether I need it or not. I'm particular that way.

BTW, on the gay stuff...TMI.

Depending on who you talk to, they might say NEI. If that's the case.... RUN!!!! 🤪

 

[Ms_ladyblue]

I've been thinking about why the issues were so important back in the old covenant. Consider the law:


These were laws that had to be followed. However, when Christ came & the 1st century congregation came along things have changed. Consider:


The attitude towards these things have taken a 180. I decided to look on the Watchtower Library & came across this:


Obviously the Law was a temporary arrangement for what would be greater, and that was Christ Jesus. However, the question I have is why even have these arrangements to begin with? I came across some information on eunuchs that if a male were to be castrated before prepuberty, they would develop to look androgynous or feminine. The nations in the past have used such court officials for many things like protecting harams & other things. What came to shock me is that in some cases, is that the eunuchs (particularly the ones that were castrated to keep their young aspects & look feminine) were treated like concubines where the nobles would engage in homosexual activity with them (perhaps political favors were part of it or it's how their brains rewired themselves due to physical & hormonal changes, who knows?). Here's some links on the subject:

https://people.well.com/user/aquarius/section3.htm#N4

Eunuch - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Eunuchs and the Postgender Jesus.pdf

drive.google.com

Sacred Androgyny & the Bible

At its core–is a mystic male-female state.

medium.com

While reading through this thread here it occurred to me that there was an Awake magazine article years ago on the topic of eunuchs and how boy singers were castrated to keep their voices at a higher pitch.
This practice is of course inhumane the way man has abused this practice just like so many other things.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101996088?q=castrati&p=par

 

[PJ54]

While reading through this thread here it occurred to me that there was an Awake magazine article years ago on the topic of eunuchs and how boy singers were castrated to keep their voices at a higher pitch.
This practice is of course inhumane the way man has abused this practice just like so many other things.

https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/101996088?q=castrati&p=par

Thanks for the find! Good to see articles that are beneficial. If only the new publications would go to that.

 

[Sundial]

Now circumcision: ..In Latin America medical circumcision was not offered at birth or ever unless the skin was so tight it affected the baby. (Besides nobody wanted to trust an OB with a scalpel who had never done that before.) They do teach mothers how to keep the foreskin clean and let it go at that. I never heard of any problems and I had 3 boys. Everything else is probably speculation or old wives tales IMHO.

If you search the web you used to be able to find stunning old recordings of opera voices of castrati as this practice continued into the early 20th century. Mozart wrote entire pieces for them. There was a famous singer in the 1930s named Miguelito who was suspected of being one. I think they sound weird...

Now that the reset has given the world a whole new crop of castrati... 🤮

 

[PJ54]

Now circumcision: ..In Latin America medical circumcision was not offered at birth or ever unless the skin was so tight it affected the baby. (Besides nobody wanted to trust an OB with a scalpel who had never done that before.) They do teach mothers how to keep the foreskin clean and let it go at that. I never heard of any problems and I had 3 boys. Everything else is probably speculation or old wives tales IMHO.

If you search the web you used to be able to find stunning old recordings of opera voices of castrati as this practice continued into the early 20th century. Mozart wrote entire pieces for them. There was a famous singer in the 1930s named Miguelito who was suspected of being one. I think they sound weird...

Now that the reset has given the world a whole new crop of castrati... 🤮

It's tragic how this is true.