Age for Elders

Proverbs 14 v 15 said:
You used to be a Mormon Bill? Wow, interesting 😃 it's funny how we witnesses used to laugh and joke about the young Mormon lads roaming around over here in the UK with "elder" written on their name badge. We really did used to joke about it, as if it was a ridiculous idea..
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I left the church before it was time to become a missionary. In a conversation with an "elder" we got talking about women one day. In particular, about divorced sisters. He stated that he would only ever marry a virgin. Marriages lasted about as long as milk in my family and my mother had been married three times by then, so my view was a little more open minded.
He specifically told me that a virgin wife was the reward after becoming an elder/missionary.
Mormonism is not so far away from Islam in ways. When Brother Brigham was in the mood for a new wife he would just pick one. You don't dare say no. Right here in America. For every story that I have there are twice as many that never saw the light of day about them.
My family was always in one sort of cult or another over time. Catholic, Mormon, New Age. I mention it because, had we lived farther north we may very well had been in Jim Jones group.
Seems strange to say but I could see how it happened looking at my own family.
Thankfully Im from SoCal.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
That’s my opinion too. Thanks. ❤️
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BagdadBill said:
I left the church before it was time to become a missionary. In a conversation with an "elder" we got talking about women one day. In particular, about divorced sisters. He stated that he would only ever marry a virgin. Marriages lasted about as long as milk in my family and my mother had been married three times by then, so my view was a little more open minded.
He specifically told me that a virgin wife was the reward after becoming an elder/missionary.
Mormonism is not so far away from Islam in ways. When Brother Brigham was in the mood for a new wife he would just pick one. You don't dare say no. Right here in America. For every story that I have there are twice as many that never saw the light of day about them.
My family was always in one sort of cult or another over time. Catholic, Mormon, New Age. I mention it because, had we lived farther north we may very well had been in Jim Jones group.
Seems strange to say but I could see how it happened looking at my own family.
Thankfully Im from SoCal.
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Well, we virgins really are a gift from God 🤣 that's a funny story Bill, I had no idea about the things you've enlightened me on this fine day! There's always been plenty of Mormons walking the streets in the UK but whenever they stopped me they would only say that they have a message to give me from God, but they always wanted to know where I live and come to my house to give me this message. I never gave any of them my address and so I never did find out what the message was 😝
 
Carl said:
I have no idea what the difference is between a MS and an elder. I just know there are some who never reach out past being a MS, so I assume the responsibilities are different. For instance, does a MS sit in on elder meetings? Do they counsel people?
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No, Carl, MS's do not sit in on elder's meetings. During the week of the C.O.'s visit, the C.O. meets with all the appointed brothers in the congregation. (elders and ministerial servants). However, after approximately an hour, the MS's are dismissed and the C.O. meets with only the elders to discuss the needs and problems in the congregation.

The main difference in an elder and a MS is an elder is deemed "qualified to teach". Often, that's debatable, IMO.;)
Additionally, elders, exclusively, are appointed to serve on "committee of elders" previously referred to as "judicial committees".

Qualified MS's, especially those under consideration to be appointed as an elder, may be assigned to handle what would be considered "teaching" parts on the mid-week meeting and even Public Talks especially in their own congregation. How extensively MS's are used in a congregation varies from congregation to congregation, in my experience. If there are an adequate number of capable elders, MS are used with less frequency.)

Basically, MS's perform the tasks that elders do not want to perform (accounts, literature, territories, stage etc.) unless there is an opportunity to be in the "limelight"..........i.e. Assemblies.
You are probably getting the picture by now. In the public arena, most elder's are all too eager to perform even the most menial tasks such as adjusting microphones and positioning stage props that would normally would be passed off to a MS or other qualified, baptized brothers in the congregation. (Sorry, that was always a "pet peeve" of ours at assemblies.)

MS's do not normally "counsel" the friends in an "official" capacity. Elders are encouraged to occasionally ask a MS to accompany them on shepherding calls for training purposes.
Of course, the elder would take the lead on the call. (At least, this was protocol two years ago in our congregation).
 
Proverbs 14 v 15 said:
Every man and his wife counseled ME 🥴 over the minutest things and over standing up for Jehovah 🙄 I got counseled by an elder for taking my kids to play on the 2p machines in the seaside amusements in school holidays, I got counseled (from other sisters) for allowing my kids to all choose a school friend to invite to the parties I used to do for them (it was majority of witness kids, small minority of those evil worldly kids 🙃) I got counseled by an elder for taking elderly sisters to the assemblies because they weren't in "my" congregation, I got counseled by a MS for having the audacity to say I didn't want to watch a film they were watching, it was a very violent horror film and there were 8 kids in the room with us too 😤 honestly, I could write a book!! I'm eternally grateful for Zoom, 🤭
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That’s why there is one god. You only get one opinion. If watchtower appointees followed the truth, they would all be united in their counsel. Elders appear to get the impression that if appointed to be an elder, it automatically assumes that they have counselling
skills. It’s simply not the case. This is why a shepherd of the flock should know his sheep, know their voice as Christ said his sheep would know his voice. It is one of the fundamental issues in “counselling” that the one counselling listens, rather than talks; that one “hears” what is being said; that one does not have an “agenda” and instead, seeks understanding of the other person. We see it time and again in the way that Jesus spoke to others. “Unless you drink of my blood …….” forms a prime example of “knowing” another’s motive - and on another occasion, that very “sense” of feeling in his reply to the robber hanging next to him. One does not have to be ‘involved’ with another to have empathy, rather they need life experience, wisdom, insight and the understanding to express it. Strangely enough, the Bible mentions that somewhat emphatically. I’m surprised watchtower have not seen that scripture.
 
Proverbs 14 v 15 said:
Well, we virgins really are a gift from God 🤣 that's a funny story Bill, I had no idea about the things you've enlightened me on this fine day! There's always been plenty of Mormons walking the streets in the UK but whenever they stopped me they would only say that they have a message to give me from God, but they always wanted to know where I live and come to my house to give me this message. I never gave any of them my address and so I never did find out what the message was 😝
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I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a missionary at my door. A few decades at least. They shifted gears sooner than we did. The last two I saw was actually two sisters on bikes. You learn to recognize their clothing style just like JW. I actually stopped them to have a conversation with them. I wasn't used to seeing the sisters much. Occasionally an older couple but not younger sisters.
No matter which angle they teach from, it all leads to Jose Smith and the golden plates which is the Book of Mormon.
If only Joe had read the scripture about adding to or removing from God's word.
Mormons have routine. On Sunday they pass out bits of Wonder bread and tiny goblets of water for sacrament. Once a month they fast. I don't recall why. It is a church matter. Any sisters who have a part onstage must cry or put on a good show of looking sorrowful and in pain from fasting only 24 hours. My brother mentioned it to me without explanation and so I noticed.
The brothers get on stage and show no sign of whining or hunger. Somehow this makes women more feminine I guess.
I never participated in the fasting. My reasoning was that if God made food, we should eat.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
That’s why there is one god. You only get one opinion. If watchtower appointees followed the truth, they would all be united in their counsel. Elders appear to get the impression that if appointed to be an elder, it automatically assumes that they have counselling
skills. It’s simply not the case. This is why a shepherd of the flock should know his sheep, know their voice as Christ said his sheep would know his voice. It is one of the fundamental issues in “counselling” that the one counselling listens, rather than talks; that one “hears” what is being said; that one does not have an “agenda” and instead, seeks understanding of the other person. We see it time and again in the way that Jesus spoke to others. “Unless you drink of my blood …….” forms a prime example of “knowing” another’s motive - and on another occasion, that very “sense” of feeling in his reply to the robber hanging next to him. One does not have to be ‘involved’ with another to have empathy, rather they need life experience, wisdom, insight and the understanding to express it. Strangely enough, the Bible mentions that somewhat emphatically. I’m surprised watchtower have not seen that scripture.
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At 21 I was dangerous to myself and barely able to stay alive due to my own ignorance of common sense and the world around me. I loved vehicles that moved fast and I enjoyed watching things go BOOM. For the fact that I am still alive is proof of God's love of well intentioned ignorant young men.
 
BagdadBill said:
At 21 I was dangerous to myself and barely able to stay alive due to my own ignorance of common sense and the world around me. I loved vehicles that moved fast and I enjoyed watching things go BOOM. For the fact that I am still alive is proof of God's love of well intentioned ignorant young men.
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Oh yeah, I forgot about the crazy stuff I did with fireworks and gasoline. Singed my eyelashes and held on to those fire cracker's quite a few times.🧨🔥
I was pretty cautious with guns though.
 
BagdadBill said:
I couldn't tell you the last time I saw a missionary at my door. A few decades at least. They shifted gears sooner than we did. The last two I saw was actually two sisters on bikes. You learn to recognize their clothing style just like JW. I actually stopped them to have a conversation with them. I wasn't used to seeing the sisters much. Occasionally an older couple but not younger sisters.
No matter which angle they teach from, it all leads to Jose Smith and the golden plates which is the Book of Mormon.
If only Joe had read the scripture about adding to or removing from God's word.
Mormons have routine. On Sunday they pass out bits of Wonder bread and tiny goblets of water for sacrament. Once a month they fast. I don't recall why. It is a church matter. Any sisters who have a part onstage must cry or put on a good show of looking sorrowful and in pain from fasting only 24 hours. My brother mentioned it to me without explanation and so I noticed.
The brothers get on stage and show no sign of whining or hunger. Somehow this makes women more feminine I guess.
I never participated in the fasting. My reasoning was that if God made food, we should eat.
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I've only ever seen pairs of young lads traipsing through town stopping people. The hungry sisters on stage whining is probably to prove that we're more weak and feeble than men, and men are strong and macho 💪💪😆
 
Of course a gaslighting study article follows up the 21 year old elder anouncement:

From January 13th-19th Study Article:

1. Why can we learn from older ones?


Your answer

ALL of us need guidance in making life’s important decisions. We can obtain much of that guidance from elders and other mature Christians. If they are much older than we are, we should not automatically dismiss their advice as outdated. Jehovah wants us to learn from older ones. They have had more time than we have had to acquire experience, understanding, and wisdom.—Job 12:12.


2. What will this article discuss?


Your answer

2 In Bible times, Jehovah used faithful older ones to encourage and guide his people. Consider, for example, Moses, David, and the apostle John. They lived at different times, and their circumstances differed greatly. As they neared the end of their life, they gave wise advice to younger ones. Each of these faithful older men emphasized the value of being obedient to God. Jehovah preserved their wise words for us today. Whether we are young or old, we can benefit by reviewing their counsel. (Rom. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16) In this article, we will consider the parting words of these three older men and the lessons we can draw from what they said.
 
Brother Obvious said:
Of course a gaslighting study article follows up the 21 year old elder anouncement:

From January 13th-19th Study Article:

1. Why can we learn from older ones?


Your answer

ALL of us need guidance in making life’s important decisions. We can obtain much of that guidance from elders and other mature Christians. If they are much older than we are, we should not automatically dismiss their advice as outdated. Jehovah wants us to learn from older ones. They have had more time than we have had to acquire experience, understanding, and wisdom.—Job 12:12.


2. What will this article discuss?


Your answer

2 In Bible times, Jehovah used faithful older ones to encourage and guide his people. Consider, for example, Moses, David, and the apostle John. They lived at different times, and their circumstances differed greatly. As they neared the end of their life, they gave wise advice to younger ones. Each of these faithful older men emphasized the value of being obedient to God. Jehovah preserved their wise words for us today. Whether we are young or old, we can benefit by reviewing their counsel. (Rom. 15:4; 2 Tim. 3:16) In this article, we will consider the parting words of these three older men and the lessons we can draw from what they said.
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🤯🤯🤯
 
Jerry&Phyllis said:
No, Carl, MS's do not sit in on elder's meetings. During the week of the C.O.'s visit, the C.O. meets with all the appointed brothers in the congregation. (elders and ministerial servants). However, after approximately an hour, the MS's are dismissed and the C.O. meets with only the elders to discuss the needs and problems in the congregation.

The main difference in an elder and a MS is an elder is deemed "qualified to teach". Often, that's debatable, IMO.;)
Additionally, elders, exclusively, are appointed to serve on "committee of elders" previously referred to as "judicial committees".

Qualified MS's, especially those under consideration to be appointed as an elder, may be assigned to handle what would be considered "teaching" parts on the mid-week meeting and even Public Talks especially in their own congregation. How extensively MS's are used in a congregation varies from congregation to congregation, in my experience. If there are an adequate number of capable elders, MS are used with less frequency.)

Basically, MS's perform the tasks that elders do not want to perform (accounts, literature, territories, stage etc.) unless there is an opportunity to be in the "limelight"..........i.e. Assemblies.
You are probably getting the picture by now. In the public arena, most elder's are all too eager to perform even the most menial tasks such as adjusting microphones and positioning stage props that would normally would be passed off to a MS or other qualified, baptized brothers in the congregation. (Sorry, that was always a "pet peeve" of ours at assemblies.)

MS's do not normally "counsel" the friends in an "official" capacity. Elders are encouraged to occasionally ask a MS to accompany them on shepherding calls for training purposes.
Of course, the elder would take the lead on the call. (At least, this was protocol two years ago in our congregation).
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Ha i was waiting for you to supply that info Jerry😎
 
Jerry&Phyllis said:
Yeah, I was waiting on your response to see how things are done in your "neck of the woods".😄
I'm sure you could have done a better job but didn't want @Carl waiting any longer.
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Your explanation was perfect Jerry.
I can add that progression from MS to Elder is very much dependant on serious suck up to the Elder body ( referred to as spiritual qualification )
Basically their need for a Lapp dog attitude who is not going to challenge their authority or position. For instance after being MS for a number of years in a congregation I suggested to our Presiding Overseer (as they were labelled at the time ) his wife was a full blown alcoholic and needed urgent medical care or she had a limited lifespan.
Needless to say that went down like a pork chop in a synagogue and I was completely sidelined and considered unqualified. She died a year later .
Eventually despite my outspokenness I was made Elder but in a congregation far removed.
Looking back I used to believe many events in my spiritual life were a result of intervention of the Holy Spirit . Now I'm not so sure given my present understanding of the GB
and the organisation. Some definitely. I think that like Carl I feel a lot more humble and introspective now and certainly less judgemental.

I guess you'd have to ask my good wife😅
 
Jerry&Phyllis said:
No, Carl, MS's do not sit in on elder's meetings. During the week of the C.O.'s visit, the C.O. meets with all the appointed brothers in the congregation. (elders and ministerial servants). However, after approximately an hour, the MS's are dismissed and the C.O. meets with only the elders to discuss the needs and problems in the congregation.

The main difference in an elder and a MS is an elder is deemed "qualified to teach". Often, that's debatable, IMO.;)
Additionally, elders, exclusively, are appointed to serve on "committee of elders" previously referred to as "judicial committees".

Qualified MS's, especially those under consideration to be appointed as an elder, may be assigned to handle what would be considered "teaching" parts on the mid-week meeting and even Public Talks especially in their own congregation. How extensively MS's are used in a congregation varies from congregation to congregation, in my experience. If there are an adequate number of capable elders, MS are used with less frequency.)

Basically, MS's perform the tasks that elders do not want to perform (accounts, literature, territories, stage etc.) unless there is an opportunity to be in the "limelight"..........i.e. Assemblies.
You are probably getting the picture by now. In the public arena, most elder's are all too eager to perform even the most menial tasks such as adjusting microphones and positioning stage props that would normally would be passed off to a MS or other qualified, baptized brothers in the congregation. (Sorry, that was always a "pet peeve" of ours at assemblies.)

MS's do not normally "counsel" the friends in an "official" capacity. Elders are encouraged to occasionally ask a MS to accompany them on shepherding calls for training purposes.
Of course, the elder would take the lead on the call. (At least, this was protocol two years ago in our congregation).
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Wow! An elder adjusting a microphone or stage prop! “And in the final, final part of the days, they shall say, “Did we not adjust stage props and microphones in your name?” And I shall say unto them, “Get away from me, I never knew you, for you are not mentioned in the credits as thou had no speaking parts.”
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
Wow! An elder adjusting a microphone or stage prop! “And in the final, final part of the days, they shall say, “Did we not adjust stage props and microphones in your name?” And I shall say unto them, “Get away from me, I never knew you, for you are not mentioned in the credits as thou had no speaking parts.”
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You've got their number B: So too Zephaniah in 1:9 he tells "I will call to account everyone who climbs onto the platform on that day." That day in vs4 he describes the priests in Judah as joining themselves with the foreign god priests or as we have come to know them as the Masonic priestly infiltration.
 
Recuerdo que había muchos aspirantes ancianos de 20 años en mi congregación. Les veías saludar idílicamente a sus ancianos preferidos al más estilo Flanders en cada reunión. Solían buscar motivos para acusar a los jóvenes menos espirituales, según ellos claro, y así conseguir tener puntos entre los ancianos. Mira como me preocupo por la congregación, sentían en sus ambiciosos corazones. Eran perfectos lacayos, lo he de reconocer. No fue nada divertido ser mujer rodeada de toda esa testosterona rebosante de necesidad de reconocimiento. Todo avalado por ancianos a los que les gustaba la pleitesia mientras nosotras aspirabamos a preparar las tortas para la conmemoración o limpiar el atril de la plataforma. El anciano me ha pedido a mi que limpie la plataforma, hermana., te decía la aspirante a salir con el siervo ministerial favorito del anciano top de la congregación. Lo recuerdo y me da una pereza inmensa. No saquéis estos hilos, por favor, una quiere olvidar el circo!
 
Ana said:
Recuerdo que había muchos aspirantes ancianos de 20 años en mi congregación. Les veías saludar idílicamente a sus ancianos preferidos al más estilo Flanders en cada reunión. Solían buscar motivos para acusar a los jóvenes menos espirituales, según ellos claro, y así conseguir tener puntos entre los ancianos. Mira como me preocupo por la congregación, sentían en sus ambiciosos corazones. Eran perfectos lacayos, lo he de reconocer. No fue nada divertido ser mujer rodeada de toda esa testosterona rebosante de necesidad de reconocimiento. Todo avalado por ancianos a los que les gustaba la pleitesia mientras nosotras aspirabamos a preparar las tortas para la conmemoración o limpiar el atril de la plataforma. El anciano me ha pedido a mi que limpie la plataforma, hermana., te decía la aspirante a salir con el siervo ministerial favorito del anciano top de la congregación. Lo recuerdo y me da una pereza inmensa. No saquéis estos hilos, por favor, una quiere olvidar el circo!
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It is becoming clear throughout watchtower how superficial they have become. When I was in the watchtower, it was a recurring theme spoken from the platform of how useless we all were. The favourite message from the platform was that we were simply slaves, doing what we aught to do, and that there was nothing special about any of us, (except those who were elders of course who “were taking the lead”).

I’m not sure that the nuance of meaning is translated properly in the Bible where it refers to “taking the lead” because Christ always referred to himself as a shepherd, and who invariably follows on behind ensuring no sheep are lost. In other words, giving freedom to develop, and make one’s own path home, but to ensure no one gets lost. Perhaps someone with translation skills can describe exactly what is meant by that scripture. It could for instance refer to “leading by example” which would certainly be more understandable. I hope that in the new system we can just listen to anyone on equal terms, not looking to “instruct” perhaps, but rather to share perspectives. We are all individuals and surely this is the glory of service and participation; to add to one’s perspective rather than continually vie for position.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
It is becoming clear throughout watchtower how superficial they have become. When I was in the watchtower, it was a recurring theme spoken from the platform of how useless we all were. The favourite message from the platform was that we were simply slaves, doing what we aught to do, and that there was nothing special about any of us, (except those who were elders of course who “were taking the lead”).

I’m not sure that the nuance of meaning is translated properly in the Bible where it refers to “taking the lead” because Christ always referred to himself as a shepherd, and who invariably follows on behind ensuring no sheep are lost. In other words, giving freedom to develop, and make one’s own path home, but to ensure no one gets lost. Perhaps someone with translation skills can describe exactly what is meant by that scripture. It could for instance refer to “leading by example” which would certainly be more understandable. I hope that in the new system we can just listen to anyone on equal terms, not looking to “instruct” perhaps, but rather to share perspectives. We are all individuals and surely this is the glory of service and participation; to add to one’s perspective rather than continually vie for position.
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Entiendo que el pueblo de Jehová, por norma general tiene que tener una actitud de oveja. Así lo describen más escrituras. Las ovejas que están cerca del pastor le siguen y detrás vienen todas las demás. El problema está cuando los pastores son malos. Pero de eso también hablan las escrituras. Tengo la opinión de que las ovejas que permanecen bajo las alas de la WT en la actualidad son ovejas poco pensantes, cero aseguradoras de todas las cosas, para que se me entienda, con poca perspectiva de mira más allá que el culo de la oveja de adelante. Quien quiere examinar algo así? Uno examina cuando tiene perspectiva de campo, de comida menos pisoteada por las demás, como una colina alejada de los cómodos pastos, hierba recién brotada. Esos a los que los perros no van porque el silbato del pastor no es escuchado. Hasta que llegue Jesús será así. Escuchar su voz será algo intenso y muy personal, si agua conseguirá quitar toda sed. Algo muy distinto a las sesiones de dos horas de reunión a la hora de la dieta, en las que te duermes y acudes al baño para beber agua como excusa para despertar.
 
Ana said:
Recuerdo que había muchos aspirantes ancianos de 20 años en mi congregación. Les veías saludar idílicamente a sus ancianos preferidos al más estilo Flanders en cada reunión. Solían buscar motivos para acusar a los jóvenes menos espirituales, según ellos claro, y así conseguir tener puntos entre los ancianos. Mira como me preocupo por la congregación, sentían en sus ambiciosos corazones. Eran perfectos lacayos, lo he de reconocer. No fue nada divertido ser mujer rodeada de toda esa testosterona rebosante de necesidad de reconocimiento. Todo avalado por ancianos a los que les gustaba la pleitesia mientras nosotras aspirabamos a preparar las tortas para la conmemoración o limpiar el atril de la plataforma. El anciano me ha pedido a mi que limpie la plataforma, hermana., te decía la aspirante a salir con el siervo ministerial favorito del anciano top de la congregación. Lo recuerdo y me da una pereza inmensa. No saquéis estos hilos, por favor, una quiere olvidar el circo!
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Translation
I remember there were many aspirants in their 20s in my congregation. You saw them idyllically greeting their favorite elders in Flanders style at every gathering. They used to look for reasons to accuse the less spiritual young people, according to them of course, and thus get points among the elderly. Look how I care about the congregation, they felt in their ambitious hearts. They were perfect lackeys, I must admit. It was no fun to be a woman surrounded by all that testosterone overflowing with the need for recognition. All endorsed by old people who liked to pay homage while we aspired to prepare the cakes for the commemoration or clean the lectern of the platform. The elder has asked me to clean the platform, sister, the would-be date with the favorite ministerial servant of the top elder in the congregation told you. I remember it and I'm immensely lazy. Don't pull out these threads, please, one wants to forget the circus!
 
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