Are you a disciple? (See attached screenshot.)

Netzer

Netzer

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Greetings.
 

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4JahandChrist said:
I think you stumbled onto the wrong forum.....

Borean Picketts is thatta way maaaan!!!!!! :-) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
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4JahandChrist said:
I think you stumbled onto the wrong forum.....

Borean Picketts is thatta way maaaan!!!!!! :-) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Click to expand...
"Blessed is the man who walks not in the counsel of the wicked, nor stands in the way of sinners, nor sits in the seat of the scornful ..."

. Tehilliym (Psalms) 1:1
 
I don't hide the fact that I'm open to alternative views on most matters, especially considering the fact that the Bible is not fully explained yet. We were told in the Book of Daniel that this won't happen until the last days begin. Each of us has to face judgment on our own, so I approach Bible conjecture with an open mind. My mind is closed when it comes to unquestionable truths though.

This forum has been divided, and its growth stunted, because people can't simply agree to disagree; instead opting to force their views on others. To this day no one has been able to articulate what the consequences are for being wrong about certain open-ended questions. For example... what if 144,000 is not meant to be taken literally? I believe it is, but my sons don't. Is it worth dividing my household over? Won't Jesus reveal the truth about all prophecies when he returns?

My opinion is that it's very spiritually dangerous to be stubborn about topics that we don't fully understand. It's also spiritually suicidal to be lukewarm in our faith. It's my firm belief that one can be 100% faithful, while also being open to the conjecture of others with whom they disagree. It's called be open to agreement, something I've had to develop over the years. The coming test isn't about Bible knowledge, it's 100% about faith. To partake or not to partake is a personal matter. As long as you feel confident in your choice after prayer and supplication, then it's my opinion you will be fine when Jesus comes to correct us. Everyone will receive correction; of this I am certain.
 
Carl said:
I don't hide the fact that I'm open to alternative views on most matters, especially considering the fact that the Bible is not fully explained yet. We were told in the Book of Daniel that this won't happen until the last days begin. Each of us has to face judgment on our own, so I approach Bible conjecture with an open mind. My mind is closed when it comes to unquestionable truths though.

This forum has been divided, and its growth stunted, because people can't simply agree to disagree; instead opting to force their views on others. To this day no one has been able to articulate what the consequences are for being wrong about certain open-ended questions. For example... what if 144,000 is not meant to be taken literally? I believe it is, but my sons don't. Is it worth dividing my household over? Won't Jesus reveal the truth about all prophecies when he returns?

My opinion is that it's very spiritually dangerous to be stubborn about topics that we don't fully understand. It's also spiritually suicidal to be lukewarm in our faith. It's my firm belief that one can be 100% faithful, while also being open to the conjecture of others with whom they disagree. It's called be open to agreement, something I've had to develop over the years. The coming test isn't about Bible knowledge, it's 100% about faith. To partake or not to partake is a personal matter. As long as you feel confident in your choice after prayer and supplication, then it's my opinion you will be fine when Jesus comes to correct us. Everyone will receive correction; of this I am certain.
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It is true, that partaking or not is a personal matter. That is why I will not allow someone to try to persuade others to partake. It is to be expected, though. Every year around the Memorial, these creeps show up. They have nothing to contribute and know nothing about what they speak. That's why I will not allow them a voice.
 
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Watchman said:
It is true, that partaking or not is a personal matter. That is why I will not allow someone to try to persuade others to partake. It is to be expected, though. Every year around the Memorial, these creep show up. They have another to contribute and know nothing about what they speak. That's why I will not allow them a voice.
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I agree with you. My comment was directed at Netzer.
 
Watchman said:
I banned him
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I used to disagree with you banning people, but I came to realize it was necessary when it comes to those who aren't open to agreement. They come here to disrupt and cause infighting. This is from Satan and has no place here.

I do hope you can forgive some who've offended you and allow them back if they behave. lol
 
This person didn't seem to have any malicious intent. They quoted a scripture in their opening comment and most likely feel what they pointed out is important for salvation. I didn't see them pushing anything. I don't know - that's just how I saw it. What does it mean to partake is a personal matter? Based on what? This is all getting very depressing!!!
 
Carl said:
I don't hide the fact that I'm open to alternative views on most matters, especially considering the fact that the Bible is not fully explained yet. We were told in the Book of Daniel that this won't happen until the last days begin. Each of us has to face judgment on our own, so I approach Bible conjecture with an open mind. My mind is closed when it comes to unquestionable truths though.

This forum has been divided, and its growth stunted, because people can't simply agree to disagree; instead opting to force their views on others. To this day no one has been able to articulate what the consequences are for being wrong about certain open-ended questions. For example... what if 144,000 is not meant to be taken literally? I believe it is, but my sons don't. Is it worth dividing my household over? Won't Jesus reveal the truth about all prophecies when he returns?

My opinion is that it's very spiritually dangerous to be stubborn about topics that we don't fully understand. It's also spiritually suicidal to be lukewarm in our faith. It's my firm belief that one can be 100% faithful, while also being open to the conjecture of others with whom they disagree. It's called be open to agreement, something I've had to develop over the years. The coming test isn't about Bible knowledge, it's 100% about faith. To partake or not to partake is a personal matter. As long as you feel confident in your choice after prayer and supplication, then it's my opinion you will be fine when Jesus comes to correct us. Everyone will receive correction; of this I am certain.
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Ask your son's this question.
If the number was symbolic then how come the scriptures say "that no one was able to master that song except the 144,000?

And they are singing+ as if a new song+ before the throne and before the four living creatures+ and the elders;*+ and no one was able to master* that song but the hundred and forty-four thousand,+ who have been bought+ from the earth.

Revelation 14:3​

 
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I will say this. I am not quite sure what I believe any more on a few subjects. This is one of those. For me personally, I'm just glad they let me in the door, so I'm happy to observe. Like Carl said, and even as R&K pointed out in his talk yesterday, even Jesus apostles were clueless. But there are very good arguments that only the anointed should partake. All of Jesus disciples at that time were anointed, or were going to be. But this is one of those arguments that's like, this one lawyer I watch on YouTube, I forget exactly how he puts it, but it's basically if you don't have the truth, dazzle them lots with BS. The idea being that you always have an answer, even if it's nonsense, like flesh and blood cannot inherit God's Kingdom, but flesh and bone can. Another one is when they say, the term, "paradise earth" is not in the Bible. OK, so somehow because those two words are not put together, it's not true? It's absurd nonsense.


I don't see a problem asking the question about partaking. One of the biggest problems with WT, is they in fact are "masters over our faith", or they try to be. But at the end of the day, on that "last day" we each individually answer to Jehovah. The problem with this guy, is the attitude that they are right and everyone else is wrong. But I understand it totally. I spent the better part of my entire life believing I knew the "truth" about everything when it came to the Bible, and it never occurred to me how arrogant that actually was.

We had one of the Elders, one of the most unlikable people I have ever met, it's like Satan picked him, because he knew he'd remind me of everything wrong with JW elders, but we had this elder and his wife come by to drop off the invitation for the Memorial, and he gave my wife the brochure, "Return to Jehovah". I wasn't hear, or he would have gotten an ear full. But this is the arrogance I am talking about. It's NOT a "return to Jehovah" they want it's a return to WT! So I already know what I would say, and if he says anything to me tonight, we are going in person, I'm going to ask him, "what did the Israelite's say when they made the Golden Calf?" They were having a "festival to Jehovah." Then I would say, "we didn't leave Jehovah, we left the Golden Calf!!! The meeting have become nothing more than idolatry of the GB, and my conscience won't allow me to participate." And if I have a chance after that I am going to tell him, "Oh and BTW, If Jehovah was guiding the GB during Covid, who was guiding the rest of the world, because it was one at the same! Exactly the same."
 
Goldie said:
This person didn't seem to have any malicious intent. They quoted a scripture in their opening comment and most likely feel what they pointed out is important for salvation. I didn't see them pushing anything. I don't know - that's just how I saw it. What does it mean to partake is a personal matter? Based on what? This is all getting very depressing!!!
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This person has never posted on the forum before. They signed up just to stir up things by trying to trigger a who should partake debate. We go through this every year. I am not going to allow it. I have been at this long enough to know when I see a weasel.
 
Bk Kevin said:
If the number was symbolic then how come the scriptures say "that no one was able to master that song except the 144,000?
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That's not the issue. The real reason they believe that is because they believe the every one is going to heaven, the earth is going to be destroyed, and there is no earthly paradise, and "God's Kingdom" is "in your heart" because that's what he said to the Pharisees, or so they believe. So the number 144,000 has to be symbolic, because everyone else would have to go to "hell" if it wasn't. So you have to start with the real reason they believe this nonsense, if there is any hope of reaching them.
 
My point is that we all got to this point by being critical thinkers and questioning WT. Robert, you questioned things - why isn't this tolerated here? We're all still confused, learning, and trying to figure things out. Unless a person is totally unreasonable, starts trouble, or is downright nasty, we should be allowed to open up a topic for discussion, especially if this topic is confusing to many. Geez, let's not be like the Watchtower and shut down everything we don't agree with. Maybe some here do agree with a comment and would like to hear what others have to say without others mocking or the member being quickly shut down and booted. Isn't this how we learn?
 
Satan is quite the gardener and plants many seeds of doubt.

Another illustration he set before them, saying: “The kingdom of the heavens has become like a man that sowed fine seed in his field.+ While men were sleeping, his enemy came and oversowed weeds* in among the wheat, and left. When the blade sprouted and produced fruit, then the weeds appeared also. So the slaves of the householder came up and said to him, ‘Master, did you not sow fine seed in your field?+ How, then, does it come to have weeds?’+ He said to them, ‘An enemy, a man, did this.’+ They said to him, ‘Do you want us, then, to go out and collect them?’ Read more>

Matthew 13:24-28 https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/matthew/13/​

 
Nomex said:
That's not the issue. The real reason they believe that is because they believe the every one is going to heaven, the earth is going to be destroyed, and there is no earthly paradise, and "God's Kingdom" is "in your heart" because that's what he said to the Pharisees, or so they believe. So the number 144,000 has to be symbolic, because everyone else would have to go to "hell" if it wasn't. So you have to start with the real reason they believe this nonsense, if there is any hope of reaching them.
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That's some nice Insight, thank you.
 
Goldie said:
My point is that we all got to this point by being critical thinkers and questioning WT. Robert, you questioned things - why isn't this tolerated here? We're all still confused, learning, and trying to figure things out. Unless a person is totally unreasonable, starts trouble, or is downright nasty, we should be allowed to open up a topic for discussion, especially if this topic is confusing to many. Geez, let's not be like the Watchtower and shut down everything we don't agree with. Maybe some here do agree with a comment and would like to hear what others have to say without others mocking or the member being quickly shut down and booted. Isn't this how we learn?
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We have discussed it, many times. What is the point of endlessly debating something? Besides, I know the sort of people that push this thing. It is Ray Franz's disciples. But if you have questions, I will be happy to answer them. I am just not going to allow these little weasels to come on here with their agenda.
 
Goldie said:
My point is that we all got to this point by being critical thinkers and questioning WT. Robert, you questioned things - why isn't this tolerated here? We're all still confused, learning, and trying to figure things out. Unless a person is totally unreasonable, starts trouble, or is downright nasty, we should be allowed to open up a topic for discussion, especially if this topic is confusing to many. Geez, let's not be like the Watchtower and shut down everything we don't agree with. Maybe some here do agree with a comment and would like to hear what others have to say without others mocking or the member being quickly shut down and booted. Isn't this how we learn?
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The thoughts of 2Tim 2:23 helps me stay the course. That whole chapter is loving counsel to a young Timothy. We have to analyze what people say, show respect, and if it doesn't make sense, in my case I don't read on. Personally, I'm here because I see the truth being explained by Robert, and he is my anointed friend. Jesus has chosen him. Why would we turn the forum into an open debate? Bro. King says it the way the Bible explains and I understand him. Keep testing to see wether these things are true. I'm happy with the way he runs the forum and anyone who is sincere and talks to him will be let back on. I don't think he gets his kicks by booting people off. We live in a world that feels whatever they have to say should be listened to. Bless Bro. King for filtering the forum.
 
jay said:
The thoughts of 2Tim 2:23 helps me stay the course. That whole chapter is loving counsel to a young Timothy. We have to analyze what people say, show respect, and if it doesn't make sense, in my case I don't read on. Personally, I'm here because I see the truth being explained by Robert, and he is my anointed friend. Jesus has chosen him. Why would we turn the forum into an open debate? Bro. King says it the way the Bible explains and I understand him. Keep testing to see wether these things are true. I'm happy with the way he runs the forum and anyone who is sincere and talks to him will be let back on. I don't think he gets his kicks by booting people off. We live in a world that feels whatever they have to say should be listened to. Bless Bro. King for filtering the forum.
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Jay, I'm not saying turn the forum into an open debate. I know Robert has a good understanding of many prophecies, and I appreciate his articles and videos; I've learned a lot from them. With that said, he's still an imperfect man and not infallible. The Bible tells us to test every inspired expression, make sure of all things, and not blindly trust whatever we're told. I've already been down this road with the Watchtower, blindly following men, and I've learned a valuable lesson. This is no disrespect to Robert; he's opened my eyes to many things. My point is that many of us coming out of the Watchtower have questions and are still sorting out the many lies we were taught. I think having discussions is beneficial, as none of us is above learning something new. I don't mean to offend anyone, especially our host. I spend most of my days studying and reading, trying to find the truth. I have many sleepless nights, worried and hoping I'm doing the right thing. My only concern is pleasing Jehovah and doing the right thing in his eyes. If I need to ask questions or speak up when I don't understand something, I don't expect to be ostracized, put down, or told that Robert's explanation is sufficient. Maybe some of us need more help understanding certain things. I know in my heart that I'm earnestly seeking the truth, and Jehovah knows my heart; that's all that matters to me.
 
Watchman said:
We have discussed it, many times. What is the point of endlessly debating something? Besides, I know the sort of people that push this thing. It is Ray Franz's disciples. But if you have questions, I will be happy to answer them. I am just not going to allow these little weasels to come on here with their agenda.
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Thanks, Robert. I do have questions. I have two articles I'd like you to look over, but to avoid starting WWIII here, I'll PM you with them. Whenever you get a chance, I'd appreciate your feedback.
 
I have a different perspective than most JWs. From the time I was baptized and for 20 years thereafter, I had what is appropriately termed an earthly hope. I had no inclination to partake. No desire to go to heaven. The thought of going to heaven was as alien to me as going to Mars. It just wasn't something I thought about or desired. Nor did I harbor some secret ambition to be anointed. I was perfectly content with the hope of surviving the world's end and living on the earth forever. What's not to like about that?

But that orientation changed 29 years ago. I even fought against it at first. But after the spirit convinced me, then it seemed wrong not to partake. However, my changed perspective had nothing to do with what anyone said I should or should not do. Of course, now it is all complicated by my disfellowshipped state, but even that will be resolved in time.
 
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