Chapter 2 - The Gentile Times

[LifeLearning]

Chapter 2 blows dozens of holes in the watchtower (WT) 1914 doctrine. Is there anyone who would refute these? Robert King clearly explains with logic, fact and scripture how the WT have it wrong. The only chance the WT have in maintaining their doctrine is to keep people from reading this work.

Bold statements like this one below are completely explained before asserting:

There is, therefore, no scriptural justification in applying the seven times of Daniel to “the appointed times of the nations” about which Christ spoke. However, neither is there any scriptural indication that “the appointed times of the nations” began when the Roman imperial legions trampled the Jewish holy place in 70 C.E.

I say this to anyone peeking over the fence that has even the slightest doubt: If you are a Jehovah's Witness, and accept the WT explanation of how Christ's Kingdom began in 1914, you have it wrong and are at risk of perishing with the world. If your faith is so weak that you cannot handle reading this one chapter then you will remain a baby for your entire life, never moving on from milk to solid food. Please brothers, read this.

 

[wotshinit]

Another point that I appreciated about Chapter 2, The Gentile Times, was how Robert King explained how the ”trampling” on figurative Jerusalem would have a greater fulfillment than what happened in 70 ce, when literal Jerusalem was destroyed. He connects the prophecies foretold in Isaiah, particularly in chapter 29. It’s explained that those scriptures when referencing “Ariel” are referring to the City of Jerusalem and thus to “Jehovah’s earthly organization”. Isaiah 29:7-8 shows that the attackers will be a plurality of nations, which fits the 8th King which will be a one world government.

Isaiah 29:7-8: “Then the crowd of all the nations waging war against Arʹi·el —All those waging war against her, The siege towers against her, And those bringing distress on her— Will become like a dream, a vision of the night. Yes, it will be just as when someone hungry dreams that he is eating, But he wakes up hungry, And as when someone thirsty dreams that he is drinking, But he wakes up tired and thirsty. So it will happen with the crowd of all the nations That wage war against Mount Zion”.

This verse in Isaiah seems to describe how the GB has treated those who stand up for what is right when it conflicts with their instruction.

Isaiah 29:21: “Those who with a false word make others guilty, Who lay traps for the defender in the city gate, And who with empty arguments deny justice to the righteous one.”

Paragraph 16 of Chapter 2 says:

"According to the prophecy in the seventh chapter of Daniel, when God gives the kingdom to the Son of man and the holy ones, afterwards only a brief extension of time is given to the beastly political system, during which time the holy ones “will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.” The period of time cryptically written as “a time and times and half time,” may be thought of as the changing of the guard. Daniel 12:7 makes reference to the same period of time, saying: “And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy ones to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”

Daniel 7:21, 22 says: "I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself."

Hence, the beast will only prevail against the holy ones until "God gives the kingdom to . . . the holy ones," necessitating that the three and a half years of preaching and persecution of the holy ones has to happen before Jesus appears before the Ancient of Days to receive the kingdom.

So who, then, are the 'rest of the beasts' in verse 12, whose rulerships were taken away at the time the beast was killed, but whose 'life was lengthened for a time and a season,' when Christ received the kingdom at his coming?

Isaiah 2 offers a good explanation by foretelling that "all the nations," meaning, the 'great crowd of all the nations' that are 'coming out of the great tribulation,' having survived the Armageddon destruction of the beast, are then for 'a time and a season' streaming to the mountain of the house of Jehovah.

The 'appointed times of the nations' are called the 'great tribulation' in the parallel accounts of Mathew and Mark, and which Re 11:2 informs us will go on for 42 month, during which time they will trample on and prevail against the followers of Christ until his coming again to receive them home to himself.

That's how it reads to me.

 

[LifeLearning]

Paragraph 16 of Chapter 2 says:

"According to the prophecy in the seventh chapter of Daniel, when God gives the kingdom to the Son of man and the holy ones, afterwards only a brief extension of time is given to the beastly political system, during which time the holy ones “will be given into his hand for a time, and times and half a time.” The period of time cryptically written as “a time and times and half time,” may be thought of as the changing of the guard. Daniel 12:7 makes reference to the same period of time, saying: “And as soon as there will have been a finishing of the dashing of the power of the holy ones to pieces, all these things will come to their finish.”

Daniel 7:21, 22 says: "I kept on beholding when that very horn made war upon the holy ones, and it was prevailing against them, until the Ancient of Days came and judgment itself was given in favor of the holy ones of the Supreme One, and the definite time arrived that the holy ones took possession of the kingdom itself."

Hence, the beast will only prevail against the holy ones until "God gives the kingdom to . . . the holy ones," necessitating that the three and a half years of preaching and persecution of the holy ones has to happen before Jesus appears before the Ancient of Days to receive the kingdom.

So who, then, are the 'rest of the beasts' in verse 12, whose rulerships were taken away at the time the beast was killed, but whose 'life was lengthened for a time and a season,' when Christ received the kingdom at his coming?

Isaiah 2 offers a good explanation by foretelling that "all the nations," meaning, the 'great crowd of all the nations' that are 'coming out of the great tribulation,' having survived the Armageddon destruction of the beast, are then for 'a time and a season' streaming to the mountain of the house of Jehovah.

The 'appointed times of the nations' are called the 'great tribulation' in the parallel accounts of Mathew and Mark, and which Re 11:2 informs us will go on for 42 month, during which time they will trample on and prevail against the followers of Christ until his coming again to receive them home to himself.

That's how it reads to me.

If I follow your comment correctly, you are in agreement with what Robert King writes in Chapter 2 of the book.

You also asked who are the rest of the beasts in verse 12. (Dan 7:12) I'm not sure who- seems to be the rest of the nations ruling class? but when might be the more important question.

I can see how the WT get away with selling their interpretation on all things prophecy: because who can say differently. It takes some real understanding to put these things in context.

 

[wotshinit]

If I follow your comment correctly, you are in agreement with what Robert King writes in Chapter 2 of the book.

You also asked who are the rest of the beasts in verse 12. (Dan 7:12) I'm not sure who- seems to be the rest of the nations ruling class? but when might be the more important question.

I can see how the WT get away with selling their interpretation on all things prophecy: because who can say differently. It takes some real understanding to put these things in context.

How would you paraphrase Daniel 7: 21,22, if you don't mind me asking?

 

[SusanB]

Hence, the beast will only prevail against the holy ones until "God gives the kingdom to . . . the holy ones," necessitating that the three and a half years of preaching and persecution of the holy ones has to happen before Jesus appears before the Ancient of Days to receive the kingdom.

So who, then, are the 'rest of the beasts' in verse 12, whose rulerships were taken away at the time the beast was killed, but whose 'life was lengthened for a time and a season,' when Christ received the kingdom at his coming?

Isaiah 2 offers a good explanation by foretelling that "all the nations," meaning, the 'great crowd of all the nations' that are 'coming out of the great tribulation,' having survived the Armageddon destruction of the beast, are then for 'a time and a season' streaming to the mountain of the house of Jehovah.

The 'appointed times of the nations' are called the 'great tribulation' in the parallel accounts of Mathew and Mark, and which Re 11:2 informs us will go on for 42 month, during which time they will trample on and prevail against the followers of Christ until his coming again to receive them home to himself.

That's how it reads to me.

Hi Wotshinit, Thank you for your thoughful comment. Daniel is a challenge but it is good to use other scriptures to support any understanding. I don’t agree with your statement that the “3 1/2 years of preaching and persecution has to happen before Jesus appears before the Ancient of
Days to receive the kingdom.” If you read versus 13 and 14, it shows that Jesus is given rulership, honor and a kingdom. Then in verse 22 it talks about the holy ones (not Jesus) taking “possession of the kingdom”. I would liken this to buying a house. The actual documents are filed before you take possession but you are the owner upon the title transfer and taking possession is a different act but likely close in time. So, the way I understand Daniel, there is a period of time when Jesus is enthroned as King before he with the holy ones actually take rightful possession.

I also don’t agree that the appointed times of the nations is the same as the Great Tribulation. The appointed times of the nations is a set amount of time that we know will be 3 1/2 years aka 1,260 days, aka 42 months. The same amount of time of Jesus’ ministry. The Great Tribulation is the harvest of the wheat and the weeds and it is something Jehovah will have to cut short. How could you describe cutting short a time period that is stated in advance and is a definite set period of time? That doesn’t make sense to me.

I agree with Robert King that the 8th King (all the nations because it will be a one world government) will be ruling simultaneously with the sealed anointed aka the chosen ones for 3 1/2 years after the GT but before Armageddon. During their preaching or prophesying they will be trampled and persecuted but it will also be a time when those of us who are not anointed will be able to assist the chosen ones, which will be considered as though we did good deeds to Jesus.

Matthew 25:34-40: “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

 

[wotshinit]

Hi Wotshinit, Thank you for your thoughful comment. Daniel is a challenge but it is good to use other scriptures to support any understanding. I don’t agree with your statement that the “3 1/2 years of preaching and persecution has to happen before Jesus appears before the Ancient of
Days to receive the kingdom.” If you read versus 13 and 14, it shows that Jesus is given rulership, honor and a kingdom. Then in verse 22 it talks about the holy ones (not Jesus) taking “possession of the kingdom”. I would liken this to buying a house. The actual documents are filed before you take possession but you are the owner upon the title transfer and taking possession is a different act but likely close in time. So, the way I understand Daniel, there is a period of time when Jesus is enthroned as King before he with the holy ones actually take rightful possession.

I also don’t agree that the appointed times of the nations is the same as the Great Tribulation. The appointed times of the nations is a set amount of time that we know will be 3 1/2 years aka 1,260 days, aka 42 months. The same amount of time of Jesus’ ministry. The Great Tribulation is the harvest of the wheat and the weeds and it is something Jehovah will have to cut short. How could you describe cutting short a time period that is stated in advance and is a definite set period of time? That doesn’t make sense to me.

I agree with Robert King that the 8th King (all the nations because it will be a one world government) will be ruling simultaneously with the sealed anointed aka the chosen ones for 3 1/2 years after the GT but before Armageddon. During their preaching or prophesying they will be trampled and persecuted but it will also be a time when those of us who are not anointed will be able to assist the chosen ones, which will be considered as though we did good deeds to Jesus.

Matthew 25:34-40: “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

If I understand your [and Robert's] view correctly, you believe in a trampling and persecution of the holy ones for three and a half years after the coming of Christ, but also a great tribulation of trampling and persecution upon Jerusalem, the holy ones, immediately before his coming, whereas Paul says that there will only be a single tribulation, namely the one before Christ's return, at which point the chosen ones will be glorified and caught up to meet him in the air, to join him in a flaming fire to bring vengeance upon those worshiping the beast. 2 Thes 1:6-10; 1 Thes 4:15-17

I will address the other points you raise later; thanks for your input.

 

[SusanB]

If I understand your [and Robert's] view correctly, you believe in a trampling and persecution of the holy ones for three and a half years after the coming of Christ, but also a great tribulation of trampling and persecution upon Jerusalem, the holy ones, immediately before his coming, whereas Paul says that there will only be a single tribulation, namely the one before Christ's return, at which point the chosen ones will be glorified and caught up to meet him in the air, to join him in a flaming fire to bring vengeance upon those worshiping the beast. 2 Thes 1:6-10; 1 Thes 4:15-17

I will address the other points you raise later; thanks for your input.

Not interested.

 

[wotshinit]

Hi Wotshinit, Thank you for your thoughful comment. Daniel is a challenge but it is good to use other scriptures to support any understanding. I don’t agree with your statement that the “3 1/2 years of preaching and persecution has to happen before Jesus appears before the Ancient of
Days to receive the kingdom.” If you read versus 13 and 14, it shows that Jesus is given rulership, honor and a kingdom. Then in verse 22 it talks about the holy ones (not Jesus) taking “possession of the kingdom”. I would liken this to buying a house. The actual documents are filed before you take possession but you are the owner upon the title transfer and taking possession is a different act but likely close in time. So, the way I understand Daniel, there is a period of time when Jesus is enthroned as King before he with the holy ones actually take rightful possession.

I also don’t agree that the appointed times of the nations is the same as the Great Tribulation. The appointed times of the nations is a set amount of time that we know will be 3 1/2 years aka 1,260 days, aka 42 months. The same amount of time of Jesus’ ministry. The Great Tribulation is the harvest of the wheat and the weeds and it is something Jehovah will have to cut short. How could you describe cutting short a time period that is stated in advance and is a definite set period of time? That doesn’t make sense to me.

I agree with Robert King that the 8th King (all the nations because it will be a one world government) will be ruling simultaneously with the sealed anointed aka the chosen ones for 3 1/2 years after the GT but before Armageddon. During their preaching or prophesying they will be trampled and persecuted but it will also be a time when those of us who are not anointed will be able to assist the chosen ones, which will be considered as though we did good deeds to Jesus.

Matthew 25:34-40: “Then the King will say to those on his right: ‘Come, you who have been blessed by my Father, inherit the Kingdom prepared for you from the founding of the world. For I became hungry and you gave me something to eat; I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you received me hospitably; naked and you clothed me. I fell sick and you looked after me. I was in prison and you visited me.’ Then the righteous ones will answer him with the words: ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and receive you hospitably, or naked and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?’ In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

On your point that the great tribulation is not the appointed times of the nations, please compare the details in the three accounts, where we have the disgusting thing causing desolation to a holy place in Mathew, that corresponds with the trampling [desolating] of Jerusalem [a holy place] in Luke, and where in both accounts Christians are told to flee at the point of observing this development, which according to Re 11:2 is said to continue for three and a half years, showing that all three texts talk about the same event, namely the great tribulation on Christians for three and a half years before the return of Christ; I can't see how this could be read any other way.

As to the great tribulation needing to be cut short, it looks like it will be cut short to three and a half years, because otherwise no chosen ones would be on hand alive in the flesh to be caught up to Christ in the air at his coming, which has to happen according to 1 Th 4:17.

Daniel 7:21,22 simply says that the holy ones are only prevailed against by the beast until Jesus is given the kingdom together with them; that is not an interpretation but what it plainly says, leading to the logical conclusion that the preaching of the two witnesses has to happen before the return of Christ, or else there would be two great tribulation events on the holy ones, and there is simply no support for that notion in scripture that I can see.

 

[SusanB]

On your point that the great tribulation is not the appointed times of the nations, please compare the details in the three accounts, where we have the disgusting thing causing desolation to a holy place in Mathew, that corresponds with the trampling [desolating] of Jerusalem [a holy place] in Luke, and where in both accounts Christians are told to flee at the point of observing this development, which according to Re 11:2 is said to continue for three and a half years, showing that all three texts talk about the same event, namely the great tribulation on Christians for three and a half years before the return of Christ; I can't see how this could be read any other way.

As to the great tribulation needing to be cut short, it looks like it will be cut short to three and a half years, because otherwise no chosen ones would be on hand alive in the flesh to be caught up to Christ in the air at his coming, which has to happen according to 1 Th 4:17.

Daniel 7:21,22 simply says that the holy ones are only prevailed against by the beast until Jesus is given the kingdom together with them; that is not an interpretation but what it plainly says, leading to the logical conclusion that the preaching of the two witnesses has to happen before the return of Christ, or else there would be two great tribulation events on the holy ones, and there is simply no support for that notion in scripture that I can see.

I’ve already discerned that you are just proselytizing and I am not interested. I have replied to you and then you ignore my reply and jump to a new idea. I don’t have time to play games. Stop baiting me or I will just block you.

 

[wotshinit]

Not interested.

Interesting.

 

[wotshinit]

I’ve already discerned that you are just proselytizing and I am not interested. I have replied to you and then you ignore my reply and jump to a new idea. I don’t have time to play games. Stop baiting me or I will just block you.

I am engaging with your response, if you can call that baiting?

 

[SusanB]

I am engaging with your response, if you can call that baiting?

2 Timothy 2:14: “Keep reminding them of these things, instructing them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms those listening.“

Titus 3:9: “But have nothing to do with foolish arguments and genealogies and disputes and fights over the Law, for they are unprofitable and futile.“

1 Timothy 6:3-5: “If any man teaches another doctrine and does not agree with the wholesome instruction, which is from our Lord Jesus Christ, nor with the teaching that is in harmony with godly devotion, he is puffed up with pride and does not understand anything. He is obsessed with arguments and debates about words. These things give rise to envy, strife, slander, wicked suspicions, constant disputes about minor matters by men who are corrupted in mind and deprived of the truth, thinking that godly devotion is a means of gain”.

 

[Ana]

Hola Wotshinit, gracias por tu comentario. Daniel es un desafío, pero es bueno usar otras escrituras para apoyar cualquier comprensión. No estoy de acuerdo con su declaración de que los “3 1/2 años de predicación y persecución tienen que pasar antes de que Jesús se presente ante el Anciano de
Días para recibir el reino.” Si lees los versículos 13 y 14, muestra que a Jesús se le da autoridad, honor y un reino. Luego en el versículo 22 habla de los santos (no Jesús) tomando “posesión del reino”. Compararía esto con comprar una casa. Los documentos reales se presentan antes de que tome posesión, pero usted es el propietario en el momento de la transferencia del título y la toma de posesión es un acto diferente, pero probablemente cercano en el tiempo. Entonces, según entiendo a Daniel, hay un período de tiempo en el que Jesús es entronizado como Rey antes de que él, junto con los santos, tome la posesión legítima.

Tampoco estoy de acuerdo en que los tiempos señalados de las naciones sean los mismos que la Gran Tribulación. Los tiempos señalados de las naciones es una cantidad fija de tiempo que sabemos será de 3 años y medio, es decir, 1260 días, es decir, 42 meses. La misma cantidad de tiempo del ministerio de Jesús. La Gran Tribulación es la cosecha del trigo y la cizaña y es algo que Jehová tendrá que acortar. ¿Cómo describiría acortar un período de tiempo establecido de antemano y que es un período de tiempo definido? Eso no tiene sentido para mí.

Estoy de acuerdo con Robert King en que el 8º Rey (todas las naciones porque será un gobierno mundial) gobernará simultáneamente con los ungidos sellados, también conocidos como los elegidos, durante 3 años y medio después del GT pero antes del Armagedón. Durante su predicación o profecía serán pisoteados y perseguidos pero también será un tiempo en que los que no estemos ungidos podremos ayudar a los elegidos, los cuales serán considerados como si hiciéramos buenas obras a Jesús.

Mateo 25:34-40: “Entonces el Rey dirá a los de su derecha: 'Vengan, ustedes que han sido bendecidos por mi Padre, hereden el Reino preparado para ustedes desde la fundación del mundo. Porque tuve hambre y me disteis de comer; Tuve sed y me diste de beber. Fui forastero y me recibisteis hospitalariamente; desnudo y me vestiste. Me enfermé y me cuidaste. Estuve en la cárcel y me visitaste.' Entonces los justos le responderán con las palabras: 'Señor, ¿cuándo te vimos hambriento y te alimentamos, o sediento y te dimos de beber? ¿Cuándo te vimos forastero y te recibimos con hospitalidad, o desnudo y te vestimos? ¿Cuándo te vimos enfermo o en la cárcel y te visitamos? En respuesta, el Rey les dirá: 'De cierto os digo que en la medida en que lo hicisteis con uno de estos mis hermanos más pequeños, conmigo lo hicisteis'”.

El orden de los estos acontecimientos se describen muy bien en la capítulo de Apocalipsis 11. La guerra contra los santos por el dragón empieza cuando terminen sus testimonio de 42meses. Versículo 7.

 

[SusanB]

El orden de los estos acontecimientos se describen muy bien en la capítulo de Apocalipsis 11. La guerra contra los santos por el dragón empieza cuando terminen sus testimonio de 42meses. Versículo 7.

Great point. I was now reading that.

Gran punto. Ahora estaba leyendo eso.

 

[wotshinit]

El orden de los estos acontecimientos se describen muy bien en la capítulo de Apocalipsis 11. La guerra contra los santos por el dragón empieza cuando terminen sus testimonio de 42meses. Versículo 7.

translation to English:

"The order of the these events are described very well in the chapter of Revelation 11. The war against the saints for the dragon begins when their 42-month-old testimony ends. Verse 7."

-----

The wild beast that ascends out of the abyss [Re 11:7], that will make war with the two witnesses, conquer and kill them, is given authority to act that way for only three and a half years [Re 13:5], and not a day longer; hence, the war against the holy ones must be towards the end, but within, the three and a half years, for scripture not to contradict itself.

When Christ comes after the three and a half years of great tribulation upon the holy ones, all the tribes of the earth will stop following the beast with admiration and instead beat themselves in lamentation at not having payed heed to the message of the two witnesses previously proclaimed. Mt 24:15-31; Re 13:3

With the end of the 42 month of authority for the beast to act, we also arrive at the end of the appointed times of the nations to do Jehovah's strange work of allowing the trampling of those who profess to represent him. Re 13:5; Lu 21:24; Is 28:21,22; 10:20-23

When Jesus comes there will be no more preaching, but he will gather together the chosen ones to take them home to himself, just as promised: "I am coming again [just once] and will receive you home to myself." Joh 14:3

 

[Yahthemosthigh]

Just finished reading the second chapter. One thing that really helped me "soak up" the information more efficiently is putting on some pure beta waves.

 

[Watchman]

I uploaded chapter two. I thought this thread would be the place to post it