Chapter 25 - Revelation

Frank D

Well-known member
Who are the locusts that harm/hurt people for 5 months that don't have the seal of God on their foreheads??
Who are those that do have the seal of God on their foreheads?
What event does the untied angels represent?
Who are the armies of
cavalry?
Who are the two-witnesses?
 
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SusanB

Well-known member
So, the stinging locusts are one woe and we can see at Revelation 9:6 that apparently their woe is described as being so tormenting that people would prefer death. “In those days people will seek death but will by no means find it, and they will long to die, but death will flee from them.”

Then, the scriptures mention two more woes. Here is a quote from Chapter 25 of Robert King’s book:

”The second woe unleashes four angels that are prepared to kill a third of men:

‘The one woe is past. Look! Two more woes are coming after these things. The sixth angel blew his trumpet. And I heard one voice from the horns of the golden altar that is before God say to the sixth angel who had the trumpet: “Untie the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” And the four angels who have been prepared for the hour and day and month and year were untied to kill a third of the people.’

Logically, following the stinging denunciation from the locust-like kings comes the actual judgments from God. Seeing that ancient Babylon sat upon the banks of the river Euphrates, from where the four executioner angels are symbolically unleashed, the second woe appears to be the actual destruction of Babylon the Great. Just as the 17th chapter indicates that God puts it into the hearts of the kings of the earth to destroy the harlot, similarly the four angels at the Euphrates maneuver the armies of the earth (symbolized by the fearsome cavalry) into killing a third of the men.

There is really no indication that the killing is symbolic though. On the contrary, the fact that the third of the men are killed by plagues from God and that the scripture goes on to say ‘But the rest of the people who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands; they did not stop worshipping the demons and the idols of gold and silver and copper and stone and wood...’— indicates that the judgment is against those engaged in false worship. However, before the plague the angelic call to ‘get out of her if you do not want to receive part of her plagues’ is sounded. Reasonably, those killed by the plagues did not obey God and did not ‘get out of her.’

Lending support to the argument that the second woe is depicting the destruction of Babylon the Great is the fact the during the second woe the 10th chapter of Revelation reveals Christ Jesus firmly establishing his authority over the earth— as if standing astride the earth and sea, roaring as a lion, claiming his dominion over the planet. Similarly, the 19th chapter of Revelation reveals that the destruction of Babylon the Great coincides with Jehovah becoming king—through Christ. That is why we read at Revelation 19:6: ‘Praise Jah, you people, because Jehovah our God, the Almighty, has begun to rule as king.’”
 

Frank D

Well-known member
Seeing that ancient Babylon sat upon the banks of the river Euphrates, from where the four executioner angels are symbolically unleashed, the second woe appears to be the actual destruction of Babylon the Great. Just as the 17th chapter indicates that God puts it into the hearts of the kings of the earth to destroy the harlot,
Lending support to the argument that the second woe is depicting the destruction of Babylon the Great is the fact the during the second woe
If Babylon the Great is destroyed during the 6th trumpet/second woe, why does it seem that it is not destroyed until the 7th bowl?

15 And I saw in heaven another sign, great and wonderful, seven angels+ with seven plagues. These are the last ones, because by means of them the anger of God is brought to a finish.+
16 And I heard a loud voice out of the sanctuary+ say to the seven angels: “Go and pour out the seven bowls of the anger of God on the earth.”+

17 The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air. At this a loud voice came out of the sanctuary+ from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders, and there was a great earthquake unlike any that had occurred since men came to be on the earth,+ so extensive and so great was the earthquake. 19 The great city+ split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great+ was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.+



Does that mean that Babylon the Great is Jerusalem?

8 And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city that is in a spiritual sense called Sodʹom and Egypt, where their Lord was also executed on the stake.
18 And the woman+ whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”
19 The great city+ split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great+ was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.+
 
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Frank D

Well-known member
Who are the locusts that harm/hurt people for 5 months that don't have the seal of God on their foreheads??
Who are those that do have the seal of God on their foreheads?
What event does the untied angels represent?
Who are the armies of
cavalry?
Who are the two-witnesses?
?
 

Frank D

Well-known member
If Babylon the Great is destroyed during the 6th trumpet/second woe, why does it seem that it is not destroyed until the 7th bowl?

15 And I saw in heaven another sign, great and wonderful, seven angels+ with seven plagues. These are the last ones, because by means of them the anger of God is brought to a finish.+
16 And I heard a loud voice out of the sanctuary+ say to the seven angels: “Go and pour out the seven bowls of the anger of God on the earth.”+

17 The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air. At this a loud voice came out of the sanctuary+ from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders, and there was a great earthquake unlike any that had occurred since men came to be on the earth,+ so extensive and so great was the earthquake. 19 The great city+ split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great+ was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.+




Does that mean that Babylon the Great is Jerusalem?

8 And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city that is in a spiritual sense called Sodʹom and Egypt, where their Lord was also executed on the stake.
18 And the woman+ whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”
19 The great city+ split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great+ was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath.+
?
 

SusanB

Well-known member
This point is soooo obvious and yet I never put it together until I read Chapter 25:

Of course, as with most prophecies, the Watchtower teaches that the vision in the 10th chapter of Revelation was fulfilled in 1914. But how can that be? After the blowing of the sixth trumpet, immediately before the seventh trumpet, the announcement is made that the sacred secret of God is finished and there will be no further delay of God’s oncoming judgments. Revelation 10:5-7 reads: “The angel whom I saw standing on the sea and on the earth raised his right hand to heaven, and he swore by the One who lives forever and ever, who created the heaven and the things in it and the earth and the things in it and the sea and the things in it: ‘There will be no delay any longer. But in the days when the seventh angel is about to blow his trumpet, the sacred secret that God declared as good news to his own slaves the prophets is indeed brought to a finish.

By what method of reasoning can the Watchtower declare that the sacred secret of God was finished in 1914? There is no satisfactory biblical explanation for such baseless assertions. Even by the Watchtower’s own reckoning 1919 was just the beginning of the preaching of the good news, not the end. Furthermore, how can such a view be reconciled with the fact that the angel declares that “there will be no delay any longer”? It has now been over 100 years since Jesus supposedly became king and still the earth languishes under satanic control. How does the Watchtower reconcile a delay of over a century and counting?

Reasonably, the sacred secret of God is not finished until all 144,000 members of the woman’s seed are sealed and the great crowd is gathered. Such developments, culminating with the fall of mystical Babylon the Great, would truly validate all prophecy and mark the finish of the sacred secret of God. With no further delay the nations will then be brought to the situational battlefield of Armageddon.”


***I should break out in song with Amazing Grace because ”I was blind and now I see”.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
It’s interesting to consider the little scroll mentioned in Revelation 10:10-11 but the thing that I think I am still missing is understanding why the angel says that “you must prophesy AGAIN…” It’s the word again that makes me think I am missing something because hasn’t the message been preached from when Jesus started the Christian congregation in the first century? Isn’t the preaching continual? If it is preached AGAIN that means that it has been the subject of preaching but must be done again and I’m not sure of the significance of that and exactly what is being referred to. Also, it mentions the subjects of the preaching are about “peoples, nations AND TONGUES and many kings.” What is the significance of tongues? Here is the scripture:

Revelation 10:10-11: “I took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet like honey, but when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. And they said to me: “You must prophesy again about peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.”

Here is a quote from Chapter 25:

”Since the entire premise of Revelation centers on the dramatic unsealing of the scroll containing the sacred secrets of God and the little scroll is handed to John after the seventh seal has been removed, it is apparent that the little scroll itself represents the entire revelation from God finally being revealed to Christ’s slaves on earth.

As already pointed out, the 19th chapter of Revelation indicates that a great shout of praise is offered to Jehovah immediately after the destruction of the harlot by the eighth king and it is at that point that Jehovah is said to have become King. Doubtless, those who are overjoyed and praise Jehovah will also take part in heralding Jehovah’s kingship far and wide. However, even after Babylon the Great is removed and Jehovah has become the King, the rival kingdom of the wild beast will still exist.

The vision of Habakkuk, a vision yet for the appointed time, sheds light upon developments after the “Chaldean” fulfills his assignment of destroying many nations; showing that the remaining people will issue a series of denunciatory “woes.” For example, Habakkuk 2:6-7 says: “Will not all of these speak a proverb, an allusion, and riddles against him? They will say: ‘Woe to him who accumulates what is not his —For how long?—And who makes even greater his own debt! Will not your creditors rise up suddenly? They will wake up and violently shake you, and you will become something for them to plunder. Because you plundered many nations, all the rest of the peoples will plunder you, because of your shedding men’s blood and your violence to the earth, to the cities and those living in them.’”

“The rest of the peoples” who plunder the Chaldean can only be the kings of God’s Kingdom and the surviving great crowd who inherit the earth after the eighth king is slain. Their speaking against him a proverb and condemning him for his bloodguilt and idolatry indicates that the prophesying contained in the “little scroll” of Revelation, which is directed to peoples, nations and many kings, will be a powerful denunciation of the world and a proclamation of Jehovah’s newly established kingship.”
 

evw

Well-known member
It’s interesting to consider the little scroll mentioned in Revelation 10:10-11 but the thing that I think I am still missing is understanding why the angel says that “you must prophesy AGAIN…” It’s the word again that makes me think I am missing something because hasn’t the message been preached from when Jesus started the Christian congregation in the first century? Isn’t the preaching continual? If it is preached AGAIN that means that it has been the subject of preaching but must be done again and I’m not sure of the significance of that and exactly what is being referred to. Also, it mentions the subjects of the preaching are about “peoples, nations AND TONGUES and many kings.” What is the significance of tongues? Here is the scripture:

Revelation 10:10-11: “I took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet like honey, but when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. And they said to me: “You must prophesy again about peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.”

Here is a quote from Chapter 25:

”Since the entire premise of Revelation centers on the dramatic unsealing of the scroll containing the sacred secrets of God and the little scroll is handed to John after the seventh seal has been removed, it is apparent that the little scroll itself represents the entire revelation from God finally being revealed to Christ’s slaves on earth.

As already pointed out, the 19th chapter of Revelation indicates that a great shout of praise is offered to Jehovah immediately after the destruction of the harlot by the eighth king and it is at that point that Jehovah is said to have become King. Doubtless, those who are overjoyed and praise Jehovah will also take part in heralding Jehovah’s kingship far and wide. However, even after Babylon the Great is removed and Jehovah has become the King, the rival kingdom of the wild beast will still exist.


The vision of Habakkuk, a vision yet for the appointed time, sheds light upon developments after the “Chaldean” fulfills his assignment of destroying many nations; showing that the remaining people will issue a series of denunciatory “woes.” For example, Habakkuk 2:6-7 says: “Will not all of these speak a proverb, an allusion, and riddles against him? They will say: ‘Woe to him who accumulates what is not his —For how long?—And who makes even greater his own debt! Will not your creditors rise up suddenly? They will wake up and violently shake you, and you will become something for them to plunder. Because you plundered many nations, all the rest of the peoples will plunder you, because of your shedding men’s blood and your violence to the earth, to the cities and those living in them.’”

“The rest of the peoples” who plunder the Chaldean can only be the kings of God’s Kingdom and the surviving great crowd who inherit the earth after the eighth king is slain. Their speaking against him a proverb and condemning him for his bloodguilt and idolatry indicates that the prophesying contained in the “little scroll” of Revelation, which is directed to peoples, nations and many kings, will be a powerful denunciation of the world and a proclamation of Jehovah’s newly established kingship.”
Hi Susan, you know I'm not very good at communicating my thoughts (in English). But could it be that you are mixing the meaning of preaching and prophesying? For me, they are not the same and is the answer to your question 'Again' in the last sentence you have underlined, of this excerpt from Robert's book. He, John, had been preaching when Jesus sent him out to preach the good news of the Kingdom, which was more or less optional for the world to accept or not. But the book of Revelation is full of prophecies for him to write down. And the little scroll contains pretty much the last prophecy for the world, namely Jehovah's newly established kingship and thus being the end of Satan's world.
Does this make any sense for you?
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Hi Susan, you know I'm not very good at communicating my thoughts (in English). But could it be that you are mixing the meaning of preaching and prophesying? For me, they are not the same and is the answer to your question 'Again' in the last sentence you have underlined, of this excerpt from Robert's book. He, John, had been preaching when Jesus sent him out to preach the good news of the Kingdom, which was more or less optional for the world to accept or not. But the book of Revelation is full of prophecies for him to write down. And the little scroll contains pretty much the last prophecy for the world, namely Jehovah's newly established kingship and thus being the end of Satan's world.
Does this make any sense for you?
Good point and yes I was actually thinking of the preaching but still if they, the anointed, are to do it AGAIN, what is this a reference to? Even by pointing out it's prophesying again, since it's to John, I assume he represents the anointed. So perhaps as they had gifts of prophesying in the first century, will they once again have these same gifts of the spirit? I suspect that will be the case but yet I'm wondering if that's the application. Thank you for your comment.
 

evw

Well-known member
Good point and yes I was actually thinking of the preaching but still if they, the anointed, are to do it AGAIN, what is this a reference to? Even by pointing out it's prophesying again, since it's to John, I assume he represents the anointed. So perhaps as they had gifts of prophesying in the first century, will they once again have these same gifts of the spirit? I suspect that will be the case but yet I'm wondering if that's the application. Thank you for your comment.
But they have also to preach for the last time after they have been sealed? Until they being killed by the 8th King?
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
It’s interesting to consider the little scroll mentioned in Revelation 10:10-11 but the thing that I think I am still missing is understanding why the angel says that “you must prophesy AGAIN…” It’s the word again that makes me think I am missing something because hasn’t the message been preached from when Jesus started the Christian congregation in the first century? Isn’t the preaching continual? If it is preached AGAIN that means that it has been the subject of preaching but must be done again and I’m not sure of the significance of that and exactly what is being referred to. Also, it mentions the subjects of the preaching are about “peoples, nations AND TONGUES and many kings.” What is the significance of tongues? Here is the scripture:

Revelation 10:10-11: “I took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet like honey, but when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. And they said to me: “You must prophesy again about peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.”

Here is a quote from Chapter 25:

”Since the entire premise of Revelation centers on the dramatic unsealing of the scroll containing the sacred secrets of God and the little scroll is handed to John after the seventh seal has been removed, it is apparent that the little scroll itself represents the entire revelation from God finally being revealed to Christ’s slaves on earth.

As already pointed out, the 19th chapter of Revelation indicates that a great shout of praise is offered to Jehovah immediately after the destruction of the harlot by the eighth king and it is at that point that Jehovah is said to have become King. Doubtless, those who are overjoyed and praise Jehovah will also take part in heralding Jehovah’s kingship far and wide. However, even after Babylon the Great is removed and Jehovah has become the King, the rival kingdom of the wild beast will still exist.


The vision of Habakkuk, a vision yet for the appointed time, sheds light upon developments after the “Chaldean” fulfills his assignment of destroying many nations; showing that the remaining people will issue a series of denunciatory “woes.” For example, Habakkuk 2:6-7 says: “Will not all of these speak a proverb, an allusion, and riddles against him? They will say: ‘Woe to him who accumulates what is not his —For how long?—And who makes even greater his own debt! Will not your creditors rise up suddenly? They will wake up and violently shake you, and you will become something for them to plunder. Because you plundered many nations, all the rest of the peoples will plunder you, because of your shedding men’s blood and your violence to the earth, to the cities and those living in them.’”

“The rest of the peoples” who plunder the Chaldean can only be the kings of God’s Kingdom and the surviving great crowd who inherit the earth after the eighth king is slain. Their speaking against him a proverb and condemning him for his bloodguilt and idolatry indicates that the prophesying contained in the “little scroll” of Revelation, which is directed to peoples, nations and many kings, will be a powerful denunciation of the world and a proclamation of Jehovah’s newly established kingship.”

Some more food for thought...​

The Final Witness – How Will People Respond?> https://e-watchman.com/the-final-witness-how-will-people-respond/


But just as Jesus commanded his followers to preach the good news, there is to be a post-good news preaching campaign in the future. That is what is portrayed by Jesus handing John the little scroll. And the angel went on to say to him: “‘Take it and eat it up, and it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet like honey.’ I took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet like honey, but when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. And they said to me: ‘You must prophesy again about peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.’”

You Must Prophesy Again​

The command to “prophesy again” comes after the preaching of the good news is brought to a finish. The message contained in the little scroll is not good news. It is a message of doom. That is why it made John’s belly bitter. It is a bitter message that those whom Christ commissions will deliver. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/concerning-green-vegetation-apocalypse/


The Unfinished Mystery of God​

John participated in the vision as an awestruck observer of Christ’s descent to earth and that Jesus spoke to him and handed him the little scroll, thereby re-commissioning him to “prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings,” portends the manifestation of Christ to the remaining anointed ones on earth and their final assignment to give witness to Jesus’ presence in glory.

Of course, the aged apostle was not personally re-commissioned by Christ to go on some sort of missionary tour of the Mediterranean region. John was a very old man and a prisoner on the remote island of Patmos at the time. His earthly ministry was nearly over. The apostle merely represented in the vision those anointed servants of God who will be on earth when Christ actually comes down to finish the mystery of God. The fact that John was commissioned to “prophesy again” immediately after the strong angel had declared the sacred secret of God to be accomplished is significant. It indicates that there will be a final witness given to the world after the calling and choosing of the sons of the kingdom has come to a finish.> https://e-watchman.com/unfinished-mystery-god/
 
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SusanB

Well-known member

You Must Prophesy Again
The command to “prophesy again” comes after the preaching of the good news is brought to a finish. The message contained in the little scroll is not good news. It is a message of doom. That is why it made John’s belly bitter. It is a bitter message that those whom Christ commissions will deliver. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/concerning-green-vegetation-apocalypse/

The Unfinished Mystery of God​

John participated in the vision as an awestruck observer of Christ’s descent to earth and that Jesus spoke to him and handed him the little scroll, thereby re-commissioning him to “prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings,” portends the manifestation of Christ to the remaining anointed ones on earth and their final assignment to give witness to Jesus’ presence in glory.

Of course, the aged apostle was not personally re-commissioned by Christ to go on some sort of missionary tour of the Mediterranean region. John was a very old man and a prisoner on the remote island of Patmos at the time. His earthly ministry was nearly over. The apostle merely represented in the vision those anointed servants of God who will be on earth when Christ actually comes down to finish the mystery of God. The fact that John was commissioned to “prophesy again” immediately after the strong angel had declared the sacred secret of God to be accomplished is significant. It indicates that there will be a final witness given to the world after the calling and choosing of the sons of the kingdom has come to a finish.> https://e-watchman.com/unfinished-mystery-god/
Thank you!!!
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member
Hi Susan, you know I'm not very good at communicating my thoughts (in English). But could it be that you are mixing the meaning of preaching and prophesying? For me, they are not the same and is the answer to your question 'Again' in the last sentence you have underlined, of this excerpt from Robert's book. He, John, had been preaching when Jesus sent him out to preach the good news of the Kingdom, which was more or less optional for the world to accept or not. But the book of Revelation is full of prophecies for him to write down. And the little scroll contains pretty much the last prophecy for the world, namely Jehovah's newly established kingship and thus being the end of Satan's world.
Does this make any sense for you?
Good point thank you...
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member

Some more food for thought...​

The Final Witness – How Will People Respond?> https://e-watchman.com/the-final-witness-how-will-people-respond/


But just as Jesus commanded his followers to preach the good news, there is to be a post-good news preaching campaign in the future. That is what is portrayed by Jesus handing John the little scroll. And the angel went on to say to him: “‘Take it and eat it up, and it will make your stomach bitter, but in your mouth it will be sweet like honey.’ I took the little scroll out of the hand of the angel and ate it, and in my mouth it was sweet like honey, but when I had eaten it, my stomach was made bitter. And they said to me: ‘You must prophesy again about peoples and nations and tongues and many kings.’”

You Must Prophesy Again​

The command to “prophesy again” comes after the preaching of the good news is brought to a finish. The message contained in the little scroll is not good news. It is a message of doom. That is why it made John’s belly bitter. It is a bitter message that those whom Christ commissions will deliver. Read more> https://e-watchman.com/concerning-green-vegetation-apocalypse/


The Unfinished Mystery of God​

John participated in the vision as an awestruck observer of Christ’s descent to earth and that Jesus spoke to him and handed him the little scroll, thereby re-commissioning him to “prophesy again with regard to peoples and nations and tongues and many kings,” portends the manifestation of Christ to the remaining anointed ones on earth and their final assignment to give witness to Jesus’ presence in glory.

Of course, the aged apostle was not personally re-commissioned by Christ to go on some sort of missionary tour of the Mediterranean region. John was a very old man and a prisoner on the remote island of Patmos at the time. His earthly ministry was nearly over. The apostle merely represented in the vision those anointed servants of God who will be on earth when Christ actually comes down to finish the mystery of God. The fact that John was commissioned to “prophesy again” immediately after the strong angel had declared the sacred secret of God to be accomplished is significant. It indicates that there will be a final witness given to the world after the calling and choosing of the sons of the kingdom has come to a finish.> https://e-watchman.com/unfinished-mystery-god/
More information in reference to John of Patmos and the little scroll.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I think this section of Chapter 25 is interesting and not only because it foretells that God’s Kingdom will begin to exercise its authority over the earth but also I think it’s an interesting idea to ponder if one thinks that Jehovah has designated the Watchtower to be his organization when he has not yet caused the “horn” to sprout, but he will once the anointed are cleansed and sealed.

The prophecy of Ezekiel also shines a light upon these matters. In the context of the fall of Tyre and Egypt, Jehovah told his watchman: “In that day I will cause a horn to sprout for the house of Israel, and I will give you an opportunity to speak among them; and they will have to know that I am Jehovah.” (Ezekiel 29:21)

After Babylon destroyed Jerusalem, God then maneuvered the rapacious empire to also overthrow Tyre and Egypt. But when that occurred “the house of Israel” was still captive in Babylon. It is doubtful that the fall of Egypt and Tyre was a cause for Ezekiel or Israel to rejoice.

It would seem, then, that the prophecy applies foremost to the grander outworking in connection to the fall of the Anglo-American system and the appearance of the eighth king. It is in the post-crash world —similarly symbolized by the sword stroke upon the head of the seven-headed wild beast — God will cause to sprout the horn of the spiritual house of Israel and an occasion for his watchman to open his mouth to announce God’s judgments.“
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I find the reference to “Sodom” and “Egypt” to be interesting and the explanation makes perfect sense. But I have to wonder if there is more to why these errant religious leaders are referred to as Sodomites. When Jehovah reveals all the hidden things that they have done, it could still be surprising to us.

Here is a quote from Chapter 25:

Revelation goes on to say of the two witnesses: “When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them. And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city that is in a spiritual sense called Sodom and Egypt, where their Lord was also executed on the stake.”

The scripture says that the two witnesses were killed and their corpses will be on display on the main street of the great city, “where their Lord was also executed.” Now, as everyone knows, the Lord Jesus was quite literally killed —executed. He did not simply die some sort of symbolic death. He died the most gruesome and agonizing death imaginable. Since the vision of Revelation compares the deaths of God’s two witnesses to the death of Christ the killing of the two witnesses must symbolize the literal martyrdom of the remnant of the woman.

As regards the “great city,” Jesus was, of course, condemned in Jerusalem and impaled just outside the walls of the holy city.

In what was Jerusalem “Sodom and Egypt” in “a spiritual sense”?

Jesus was put to death by the Jewish religious leaders and Roman authorities. In the Hebrew Scriptures, Jehovah refers to Israel as Sodom because of its iniquity. And since the Roman Empire was once one of the ruling heads of the symbolic seven- headed beast, of which the first world power of biblical history and prophecy was Egypt, Egypt is a fitting symbol for whatever head may be ruling. In that sense, Rome was “Egypt” during the time of Christ— “in a spiritual sense.”

Hence, Christ was impaled in “Sodom”; that is, he was killed by the Jewish religious leaders, whom Jehovah regarded as Sodomites, and by the Roman Empire— “Egypt.” The two anointed witnesses will likewise be killed in the “great city” representing Jehovah’s earthly organization— killed by their religious betrayers from within, collaborating with the last king.”
 

Frank D

Well-known member
The two anointed witnesses will likewise be killed in the “great city” representing Jehovah’s earthly organization
As regards the “great city,” Jesus was, of course, condemned in Jerusalem and impaled just outside the walls of the holy city.
:unsure:???

[2 But as for the courtyard that is outside the temple sanctuary, leave it out and do not measure it, because it has been given to the nations, and they will trample the holy city underfoot for 42 months. 3 I will cause my two witnesses to prophesy for 1,260 days dressed in sackcloth.” 7 When they have finished their witnessing, the wild beast that ascends out of the abyss will wage war with them and conquer them and kill them. 8 And their corpses will be on the main street of the great city that is in a spiritual sense called Sodʹom and Egypt, where their Lord was also executed on the stake.11 After the three and a half days, spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell upon those who saw them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven say to them: “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies saw them. 13 In that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and 7,000 persons were killed by the earthquake, and the rest became frightened and gave glory to the God of heaven.]

[18 And the woman whom you saw means the great city that has a kingdom over the kings of the earth.”]

[17 The seventh one poured out his bowl on the air. At this a loud voice came out of the sanctuary from the throne, saying: “It has come to pass!” 18 And there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders, and there was a great earthquake unlike any that had occurred since men came to be on the earth, so extensive and so great was the earthquake. 19 The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell; and Babylon the Great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the fury of his wrath. 20 Also, every island fled, and mountains were not found. 21 Then great hailstones, each about the weight of a talent, fell from heaven on the people, and the people blasphemed God because of the plague of hail, for the plague was unusually great.]
 

SusanB

Well-known member
I think I recall that the most recent annual report shows over 22,000 partakers worldwide but Revelation tells us that only 7,000 will be sealed once the “harvest” has been completed. And, of course, it only makes sense that this is the fulfillment of the Christian ministry, (“then the end will come” Matthew 24:14) When the Chosen Ones are killed by the 8th King, we will see who the Great Crowd is because they will be the only ones who show godly fear and give glory to Jehovah. So many good points in this chapter 25.

Here is a quote from Chapter 25:

Revelation 11:13-14 continues: “In that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and 7,000 persons were killed by the earthquake, and the rest became frightened and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past. Look! The third woe is coming quickly.”

In the time of Elijah, Jehovah informed his prophet that there were seven thousand men who had not bent their knee in homage to Baal or kissed his disgusting idol. In the 11th chapter of Romans, Paul referred to the account of Elijah and the seven thousand and applied it to what he called the remnant of Israel, which at that time included non-Jewish Christians. Hence, the seven thousand represented a remnant of spiritual Israel, as Paul interpreted it under inspiration. The seven thousand in Revelation similarly must represent the anointed remnant left behind after the resurrection commences; those who do not bend their knee to the image of the beast or receive its mark during the concluding judgment phase.

The sacred secret of God is that the seven thousand are the individual brothers of Christ that will serve as the composite two witnesses during the coming parousia, after their being sealed. Revelation 11:13 indicates that the deaths of the seven thousand coincides with the death and resurrection of the two witnesses by saying: “in that hour.” This signifies that the wild beast kills the remaining sons of the kingdom after it arises from the abyss.

The 20th chapter confirms that the remaining sons of the kingdom are destined to be executed with the ax for giving witness to God and Christ during that critical time and for refusing to receive the mark of the beast.

What does the city represent—a tenth of which also falls as a result of the great earthquake? A city is mentioned three times within the context of the 11th chapter of Revelation. The “holy city” is referred to in the second verse as being trampled upon by the nations for 42 months. Also, the two witnesses are killed in the “great city” where Christ was also impaled, which was also the literal holy city of Jerusalem.

There is, therefore, no contextual basis for the Watchtower’s claim that the city represents sinful Christendom. It is evident that the context of the vision dictates that the tenth of the city that falls represents God’s holy city, which is heavenly Jerusalem as represented on earth by the holy ones. But what is represented by the one-tenth?

The book of Zechariah contains a parallel prophecy that aids in deciphering Revelation. Zechariah 14:1-2 states: “Look! The day is coming, a day belonging to Jehovah, when the spoil from you will be divided in your midst. I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for the war; and the city will be captured and the houses plundered and the women raped. And half of the city will go into exile, but the remaining ones of the people will not be cut off from the city.”

Zechariah’s prophecy reveals that the nations warring against “Jerusalem” initiates God’s war against them, exactly as is also described in the 11th chapter of Revelation. It is apparent that “Jerusalem” relates to Christ’s Kingdom. In what sense, though, might “half of the city” go into exile while “the remaining ones of the people will not be cut off from the city”?

Since the Jerusalem above is represented on earth by the anointed remnant, their being killed by the nations brings about their instantaneous resurrection into the heavenly realm; hence: “the remaining ones,” are not cut off from the holy city since they have a place reserved for them in the city above.

Those who are killed join the already-resurrected holy ones in heaven to complete the New Jerusalem. That is why, following the pillaging of the holy city and the evident martyrdom of the earthly sons of the Kingdom, Zechariah 14:5 says: “And Jehovah my God will certainly come, all the holy ones being with him.”

“All of the holy ones being with him” denotes that all of the 144,000 are with Jehovah when he comes to finish off the nations at the war of Armageddon—none of them remaining on the earth. Therefore, “half of the city” that goes into exile symbolizes the earthly congregation of the great crowd that is left behind after the last of the remnant have departed to the city above.

Thus, the appointed times of the nations to trample upon God’s Kingdom terminate when there is no longer any portion of the Jerusalem above represented upon the earth below
.

So, the “tenth of the city” in Revelation symbolizes the earthly realm of the Kingdom that falls during the final attack of Gog, which is the great earthquake that occurs when the seven thousand sons of the Kingdom abandon their earthly estate to take up residence in the heavenly New Jerusalem. “The rest [who] became frightened and gave glory to the God of heaven” can only bespeak of the great crowd of earthly survivors who will be witnesses to the awe-inspiring events during the culmination. They will be the only humans on earth that will give glory to God.”
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Once I read Robert King’s analysis of what is meant by the dragon dragging a third of the stars from heaven, I realized that the Watchtower’s explanation is obviously completely wrong and that it is a future event that describes the temporary success of Satan in murdering Christ’s brothers as he caused the murder of Jesus. It’s an important correction to scriptural understanding.

ITS TAIL DRAGS A THIRD OF THE STARS

Since it is evident that the prophetic time period of forty-two months and 1,260 days in connection with the witnessing of the two witnesses in sackcloth has not yet commenced, it is also apparent that the equivalent period allowed for the Devil to “wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring” has not begun either. Since the interval allowed for the Devil to persecute the woman and her offspring follows after the great dragon is hurled down from heaven, it means that Satan has not yet come down to earth in great anger. The 1,260 days is undoubtedly the “short period of time” after his ouster when the Devil vents his wrath. The Devil coming down to the earth in “great anger” will be the worst time of trouble this world has ever experienced—far exceeding, by comparison, the horrors of 1914 or the Holocaust.

Contributing to the terror, no doubt the two-horned wild beast from the earth that subsequently begins to speak like a ferocious dragon and causes fire to fall from heaven, signifies the use of earth-scorching nuclear weapons. But immediately prior to the war in heaven that results in Satan’s ouster, Revelation 11:3-4 says: “Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.”

Commenting on the verse above, the Grand Climax book asserts that the third of the stars represent the demons under Satan’s control. True enough, the Bible refers to the angelic sons of God as the “morning stars”; however, why would the Revelation of Jesus Christ, a prophecy which is intended “to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place,” concern itself with events that occurred thousands of years ago, before the Flood? Revelation reveals the future, not the past. Aspiring Bible interpreters should take note that angels are not the only sons of God that are symbolized in scripture by the stars of heaven. The prophecy at Daniel 11:3 refers to the enlightened sons of the Kingdom who ‘will shine like the stars’ during the time of the end. It is the fate of these earthly sons of the Kingdom, concerning whom the prophet writes at Daniel 8:10: “It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.”

The symbolic meaning of the stars that are made to fall to earth and which are then trampled by the so-called fierce-looking king is not left in question. Daniel identifies them as the holy ones who are brought to ruin during the time of the end.

The 14th chapter of Isaiah also symbolizes the sons of the Kingdom as stars. The denunciation of “the shining one” parallels the prophecy of Daniel and confirms that the last king will be impelled by Satan’s spirit to eliminate Christ’s brothers on earth and in that way he will attempt to exalt his throne “above the stars of God,” as the prophecy of Isaiah describes.”
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Once I read Robert King’s analysis of what is meant by the dragon dragging a third of the stars from heaven, I realized that the Watchtower’s explanation is obviously completely wrong and that it is a future event that describes the temporary success of Satan in murdering Christ’s brothers as he caused the murder of Jesus. It’s an important correction to scriptural understanding.

ITS TAIL DRAGS A THIRD OF THE STARS

Since it is evident that the prophetic time period of forty-two months and 1,260 days in connection with the witnessing of the two witnesses in sackcloth has not yet commenced, it is also apparent that the equivalent period allowed for the Devil to “wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring” has not begun either. Since the interval allowed for the Devil to persecute the woman and her offspring follows after the great dragon is hurled down from heaven, it means that Satan has not yet come down to earth in great anger. The 1,260 days is undoubtedly the “short period of time” after his ouster when the Devil vents his wrath. The Devil coming down to the earth in “great anger” will be the worst time of trouble this world has ever experienced—far exceeding, by comparison, the horrors of 1914 or the Holocaust.

Contributing to the terror, no doubt the two-horned wild beast from the earth that subsequently begins to speak like a ferocious dragon and causes fire to fall from heaven, signifies the use of earth-scorching nuclear weapons. But immediately prior to the war in heaven that results in Satan’s ouster, Revelation 11:3-4 says: “Another sign was seen in heaven. Look! A great fiery-colored dragon, with seven heads and ten horns and on its heads seven diadems; and its tail drags a third of the stars of heaven, and it hurled them down to the earth. And the dragon kept standing before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she did give birth, it might devour her child.”

Commenting on the verse above, the Grand Climax book asserts that the third of the stars represent the demons under Satan’s control. True enough, the Bible refers to the angelic sons of God as the “morning stars”; however, why would the Revelation of Jesus Christ, a prophecy which is intended “to show his slaves the things that must shortly take place,” concern itself with events that occurred thousands of years ago, before the Flood? Revelation reveals the future, not the past. Aspiring Bible interpreters should take note that angels are not the only sons of God that are symbolized in scripture by the stars of heaven. The prophecy at Daniel 11:3 refers to the enlightened sons of the Kingdom who ‘will shine like the stars’ during the time of the end. It is the fate of these earthly sons of the Kingdom, concerning whom the prophet writes at Daniel 8:10: “It grew so great that it reached all the way to the army of the heavens, and it caused some of the army and some of the stars to fall to the earth, and it trampled them down.”

The symbolic meaning of the stars that are made to fall to earth and which are then trampled by the so-called fierce-looking king is not left in question. Daniel identifies them as the holy ones who are brought to ruin during the time of the end.

The 14th chapter of Isaiah also symbolizes the sons of the Kingdom as stars. The denunciation of “the shining one” parallels the prophecy of Daniel and confirms that the last king will be impelled by Satan’s spirit to eliminate Christ’s brothers on earth and in that way he will attempt to exalt his throne “above the stars of God,” as the prophecy of Isaiah describes.”
If ever there was a case for reading the continuity in scripture, this may be it. How easy it would have been for watchtower to dig these truths out of the bible instead of invent fairy tales to exalt themselves. All those decades wasted when here it is served up like beans on a plate. Simple plain food - but with sustaining value.
 
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