Chapter 6 - The Sign

[SusanB]

Here is a link to the full chapter for reading and for audio: https://jehovah-is-king.com/sign/

Robert King talks about “the sign” having a very simple central feature and it’s a statement Jesus made that we all are likely extremely familiar with at Matthew 24:7-8: “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress”. I remember hearing it explained that the events of WW1, WW2, Spanish Flu, etc were like a fingerprint, a unique set of events signaling Jesus’ enthronement with his actual presence to come. But now I see that was as much of a misdirection of what we should be expecting as how Christendom promotes Easter and the resurrection. We certainly acknowledge that Jesus was resurrected and the wonderful meaning that has for his disciples but he specifically told us to commemorate his death. It seems to be the same type of misdirection by the Watchtower to point to 1914 as being Jesus‘ enthronement when the question being asked was the sign of his presence not his enthronement. Hopefully that makes sense.

Here is a link to Chapter 6, both the printed chapter and the audio, https://jehovah-is-king.com/sign/

 

[MickHewitt]

Robert King talks about “the sign” having a very simple central feature and it’s a statement Jesus made that we all are likely extremely familiar with at Matthew 24:7-8: “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress”. I remember hearing it explained that the events of WW1, WW2, Spanish Flu, etc were like a fingerprint, a unique set of events signaling Jesus’ enthronement with his actual presence to come. But now I see that was as much of a misdirection of what we should be expecting as how Christendom promotes Easter and the resurrection. We certainly acknowledge that Jesus was resurrected and the wonderful meaning that has for his disciples but he specifically told us to commemorate his death. It seems to be the same type of misdirection by the Watchtower to point to 1914 as being Jesus‘ enthronement when the question being asked was the sign of his presence not his enthronement. Hopefully that makes sense.

Here is a link to Chapter 6, both the printed chapter and the audio, https://jehovah-is-king.com/sign/

Instead of searching for truth they search for validation of 1914...'trying to make a vision come true'! Dan 11:14b.

 

[MickHewitt]

Instead of searching for truth they search for validation of 1914...'trying to make a vision come true'! Dan 11:14b.

These signs when fulfilled in entirety will give undoubted realisation. The sign of the son of man will be so profoundly evident giving rise to the kings of the earth and high officials, millitary commanders, rich, poor, free and enslaved cry to the mountains and the rock like institutions and organisations saying 'Hide us from the one seated on the throne and from the lamb for thier day has come'! Rev 6:15-17.

 

[SusanB]

Instead of searching for truth they search for validation of 1914...'trying to make a vision come true'! Dan 11:14b.

I can always count on you to come up with the perfect scripture. Thank you.

 

[SusanB]

The Watchtower’s teaching that WW1 and WW2 etc., is to me obviously not the fulfillment of the sign Jesus spoke of. Of course it is all now hindsight (heavy sigh). But I am encouraged to understand what Robert King says on page 72, paragraph 4 of his book: “…a war involving nuclear powers would “leave few if any survivors,” and for that reason it has been deemed impossible. But that type of scenario is exactly what Jesus was alluding to when he said that the tribulation would be of such severity that unless Jehovah intervened to cut it short no flesh would survive.”

It seems strange that I am encouraged by understanding that the fulfillment of the sign likely to include nuclear war and I don’t mean that I will be cheering for the death and destruction that it brings but it is encouraging to know that it appears we are close to another necessary step in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose and we know that he will intervene to cut short those days.

 

[Watchman]

The Watchtower’s teaching that WW1 and WW2 etc., is to me obviously not the fulfillment of the sign Jesus spoke of. Of course it is all now hindsight (heavy sigh). But I am encouraged to understand what Robert King says on page 72, paragraph 4 of his book: “…a war involving nuclear powers would “leave few if any survivors,” and for that reason it has been deemed impossible. But that type of scenario is exactly what Jesus was alluding to when he said that the tribulation would be of such severity that unless Jehovah intervened to cut it short no flesh would survive.”

It seems strange that I am encouraged by understanding that the fulfillment of the sign likely to include nuclear war and I don’t mean that I will be cheering for the death and destruction that it brings but it is encouraging to know that it appears we are close to another necessary step in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose and we know that he will intervene to cut short those days.

A year ago nuclear war was the furthest thing from everyone's mind. Then Russia invaded Ukraine, which, of course, they were goaded into doing by the Anglo-American war planners. Now talk of the possibility of nuclear war is commonplace. What a difference a year makes.

 

[Jess]

The Watchtower’s teaching that WW1 and WW2 etc., is to me obviously not the fulfillment of the sign Jesus spoke of. Of course it is all now hindsight (heavy sigh). But I am encouraged to understand what Robert King says on page 72, paragraph 4 of his book: “…a war involving nuclear powers would “leave few if any survivors,” and for that reason it has been deemed impossible. But that type of scenario is exactly what Jesus was alluding to when he said that the tribulation would be of such severity that unless Jehovah intervened to cut it short no flesh would survive.”

It seems strange that I am encouraged by understanding that the fulfillment of the sign likely to include nuclear war and I don’t mean that I will be cheering for the death and destruction that it brings but it is encouraging to know that it appears we are close to another necessary step in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose and we know that he will intervene to cut short those days.

I have been pondering this as well. Nuclear war is a terrifying prospect indeed! Like the watchtower and most humans today, I always wanted to deny that this was a real possibility. I could not reconcile that a Loving God would allow this. Until i heard someone say it in a new way and hit me like a ton of bricks-Life in this system and on this current trajectory will only get way worse (we think its bad now). The human race is suffering sickness and hunger and addiction and violence on a massive scale. The entire ecosystem is breaking down. To continue on the current trajectory of this system would actually mean a fate worse than death. It would mean the a total loss of the human spirit! (think transhumanism. AI and computer control etc). So in this way, allowing a sudden halt to this system to bring in the Millennium and the New World would actually be an act of mercy by Jehovah on our behalf

 

[Given]

The Watchtower’s teaching that WW1 and WW2 etc., is to me obviously not the fulfillment of the sign Jesus spoke of. Of course it is all now hindsight (heavy sigh). But I am encouraged to understand what Robert King says on page 72, paragraph 4 of his book: “…a war involving nuclear powers would “leave few if any survivors,” and for that reason it has been deemed impossible. But that type of scenario is exactly what Jesus was alluding to when he said that the tribulation would be of such severity that unless Jehovah intervened to cut it short no flesh would survive.”

It seems strange that I am encouraged by understanding that the fulfillment of the sign likely to include nuclear war and I don’t mean that I will be cheering for the death and destruction that it brings but it is encouraging to know that it appears we are close to another necessary step in the outworking of Jehovah’s purpose and we know that he will intervene to cut short those days.

WT says anointed saw the sign that something bad was happening and concluded that it was the fulfillment of Mathew 24. But they were clued years before 1914 meaning they heard the sign they did see the sign.

 

[SusanB]

Another point covered in Chapter 6 has probably been discussed before but for me Robert King’s explanation brings a clarity to it that is sobering. This is in regards to the scripture Luke 21:26: “People will become faint out of fear and expectation of the things coming upon the inhabited earth, for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.”

He wrote in the first paragraph on page 73, “It is true that the world has lived in fear of nuclear war and other calamities, but becoming “faint out of fear” would seem to suggest a unique sort of knee-buckling terror in response to a catastrophic situation— not merely anxiety over the possibility.”

Then in the 5th paragraph on page 73 he follows up with this statement: “The wars and disorders Jesus foretold are evidently also the primary cause of terror—perhaps culminating in fearful sights and great signs in the form of great billowing mushroom clouds boiling into the heavens. One thing is certain: Even the detonation of one thermonuclear weapon will induce in mankind a living terror never before experienced in all of history.”

Questions are such an effective way to reason with people and I think these questions are important to remember in case we can speak with our brothers and sisters who are still suffering from the delusion.

”But, have you personally witnessed the events that took place in 1914? Has anyone living now personally witnessed all of the things Jesus foretold? Did Jesus merely intend for his disciples living at the time of his return to “see” the sign of his presence by reading history books or by word of mouth eyewitness accounts handed down from grandparents and great grandparents?”

And, then reflect on how Jesus described how these events should be viewed.

“According to Jesus, his disciples living at the time would personally see the sign of his presence. Jesus even provided an illustration to emphasize the point, saying: ‘Now learn from the fig tree as an illustration this point: Just as soon as its young branch grows tender and it puts forth leaves, you know that summer is near. Likewise, also you, when you see all these things, know that he is near at the doors.’
The pronoun “you” appears three times in the verse quoted.”

 

[KevinB]

Robert King talks about “the sign” having a very simple central feature and it’s a statement Jesus made that we all are likely extremely familiar with at Matthew 24:7-8: “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress”. I remember hearing it explained that the events of WW1, WW2, Spanish Flu, etc were like a fingerprint, a unique set of events signaling Jesus’ enthronement with his actual presence to come. But now I see that was as much of a misdirection of what we should be expecting as how Christendom promotes Easter and the resurrection. We certainly acknowledge that Jesus was resurrected and the wonderful meaning that has for his disciples but he specifically told us to commemorate his death. It seems to be the same type of misdirection by the Watchtower to point to 1914 as being Jesus‘ enthronement when the question being asked was the sign of his presence not his enthronement. Hopefully that makes sense.

Here is a link to Chapter 6, both the printed chapter and the audio, https://jehovah-is-king.com/sign/

I diverge from RK on this point. What triggers the war in heaven? The birth of the Kingdom with Christ as King. And why is it called a male child? Because it reaches maturity when the final seal is awarded the faithful remnant of anointed. Then after that the crushing begins with the destruction of Babylon. The collapse of the UN and finally the rest of the nations. Another factor to consider, the four horseman of the Apocalypse begin with Jesus riding as King followed by war foodshortages etc. I think JW's got the basics right, but the timing wrong. Perhaps a dress rehearsal ?

 

[SusanB]

I diverge from RK on this point. What triggers the war in heaven? The birth of the Kingdom with Christ as King. And why is it called a male child? Because it reaches maturity when the final seal is awarded the faithful remnant of anointed. Then after that the crushing begins with the destruction of Babylon. The collapse of the UN and finally the rest of the nations. Another factor to consider, the four horseman of the Apocalypse begin with Jesus riding as King followed by war foodshortages etc. I think JW's got the basics right, but the timing wrong. Perhaps a dress rehearsal ?

I have to meditate on your comments. Thank you for pointing these details out.

 

[SusanB]

I diverge from RK on this point. What triggers the war in heaven? The birth of the Kingdom with Christ as King. And why is it called a male child? Because it reaches maturity when the final seal is awarded the faithful remnant of anointed. Then after that the crushing begins with the destruction of Babylon. The collapse of the UN and finally the rest of the nations. Another factor to consider, the four horseman of the Apocalypse begin with Jesus riding as King followed by war foodshortages etc. I think JW's got the basics right, but the timing wrong. Perhaps a dress rehearsal ?

Do you mean that 1914 was the dress rehearsal?

 

[KevinB]

They did learn alot from it, tons! So Jah was pleased with the effort, but they got the answer wrong

 

[BagdadBill]

There is a cartoon of an old guy holding a sign. I think it was intended to mock us, my brothers and sisters, but I'm not sure about it. I extend myself into people's space and time so as to leave an indelible mark on them, that God was in their space. That has to do with my conscience and it has more to do with God's will. Jehovah can slap me into next week and make me not remember it. He invented the brain, right? Where was I. See! Brain slapping! God must be evil because I can't essplain it any other way because I am esstupid.
Anyway, the sign. The old guy is standing, wherever and apparently just holding the sign is enough that a cartoon was made of him and his view.

You will see him. It may be me. Maybe tis time for the clapboards to come back. Digital messaging isn't working and they don't listen anyway.

Maybe if we are standing on a sidewalk with clapboards and smack them upside the head. Nothing like a brainjam to wake the soul. Forget about Watchtower. They aren't the preaching assembly of God. If you are awake and you understand truth, you are the vocal chords for our Creator. He can do it without you. He doesn't need you, but he wants you to speak willingly for our own future.
That's fair right?

 

[kirmmy]

Another factor to consider, the four horseman of the Apocalypse begin with Jesus riding as King followed by war foodshortages etc

I found this interesting:

The First Horsemen of Revelation Six | 2001 Commentaries

2001translation.org

Not saying it's true but it's another perspective on the white horse.

 

[Sundial]

Just a comment here: 1 Thessalonians 5:2 and 3: It just doesn't fit where we are right now. The WT has convinced everybody that every war and political upheaval is "the sign" because they want people to be terrified. However, the Bible tells us it will catch us all by surprise. That is not to say we won't get a few nukes out, but the Lord's day will come when nobody expects it and everybody is expecting a grand finale right now. I think there are still a few kinks in this road.

 

[Patricia]

I found this interesting:

The First Horsemen of Revelation Six | 2001 Commentaries

2001translation.org

Not saying it's true but it's another perspective on the white horse.

It is interesting indeed. Similar to something floating around in my mind. Gotta think about this a while. Aren't the 4 horseman part of the GT? And doesn't the 8th King show up and a start ruling at the end of GT and rule for the 3 1/2 yrs?

 

[SusanB]

It is interesting indeed. Similar to something floating around in my mind. Gotta think about this a while. Aren't the 4 horseman part of the GT? And doesn't the 8th King show up and a start ruling at the end of GT and rule for the 3 1/2 yrs?

I would say you are correct. The horsemen are riding during the GT and they are described in Revelation Chapter 6. Chapter 7 talks about the angels holding back the winds of destruction so as to not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until the anointed are sealed. That is the harvest of the wheat and the weeds during the GT as far as I can tell. Then notice that the Great Crowd is described as coming out of the GT. Then in the 8th chapter are the trumpets. Now this is the time that the earth, the trees and the sea are harmed by the trumpet blasts. The first 4 trumpets are against those who are or were considered the house of God, so there must be an identifiable group to qualify as God’s people so that they receive his judgment. Perhaps this is when the weeds are destroyed but I‘m not sure about that. Then, in Revelation 8:13 talks about woe for the earth because of the remaining 3 trumpet blasts will be against the rest of the earth.

 

[Patricia]

I would say you are correct. The horsemen are riding during the GT and they are described in Revelation Chapter 6. Chapter 7 talks about the angels holding back the winds of destruction so as to not harm the earth or the sea or the trees until the anointed are sealed. That is the harvest of the wheat and the weeds during the GT as far as I can tell. Then notice that the Great Crowd is described as coming out of the GT. Then in the 8th chapter are the trumpets. Now this is the time that the earth, the trees and the sea are harmed by the trumpet blasts. The first 4 trumpets are against those who are or were considered the house of God, so there must be an identifiable group to qualify as God’s people so that they receive his judgment. Perhaps this is when the weeds are destroyed but I‘m not sure about that. Then, in Revelation 8:13 talks about woe for the earth because of the remaining 3 trumpet blasts will be against the rest of the earth.

That's the way I was figuring it. So I don't see that explanation fitting. I'm not convinced that it's Jesus either though. Isn't Jesus supposed to return post GT also? Or what am I missing? Then too Jesus is the lamb that is opening the seals of the scroll, so can he be in two places at once? Opening the seals of the
scroll and riding the white horse?
Just one of those things that get me wondering. Not going to affect my faith one way or the other, but a curiosity none the less.

 

[SusanB]

That's the way I was figuring it. So I don't see that explanation fitting. I'm not convinced that it's Jesus either though. Isn't Jesus supposed to return post GT also? Or what am I missing? Then too Jesus is the lamb that is opening the seals of the scroll, so can he be in two places at once? Opening the seals of the
scroll and riding the white horse?
Just one of those things that get me wondering. Not going to affect my faith one way or the other, but a curiosity none the less.

It’s in symbols and so perhaps it isn’t literally Jesus on earth but through angels or holy spirit, just something under his direction. I don’t know the specifics.

 

[kirmmy]

That's the way I was figuring it. So I don't see that explanation fitting. I'm not convinced that it's Jesus either though. Isn't Jesus supposed to return post GT also? Or what am I missing? Then too Jesus is the lamb that is opening the seals of the scroll, so can he be in two places at once? Opening the seals of the
scroll and riding the white horse?
Just one of those things that get me wondering. Not going to affect my faith one way or the other, but a curiosity none the less.

I didn't want to upset anyone with my post. I just thought it was an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of before. TBH, I think Revvzone did a thread about it here some time back.

I could see it being true but I will go with RK's explanation for now. Some of the Bible prophecies we won't understand until after they're fulfilled.

 

[Patricia]

I could see it being true but I will go with RK's explanation for now. Some of the Bible prophecies we won't understand until after they're fulfilled.

Yeah, I don't have a better interpretation so I will have to just wait and see.
Don't stop posting "interesting" things you come across though. It's good to get other views and then be able to decide what makes more sense with God's word as a whole. Maybe we find a new bit of truth or maybe we reinforce the truth we already have. I see it as a win either way, as long as I don't waste too much time on things that won't really matter in the end. I like to

 

[MickHewitt]

These signs when fulfilled in entirety will give undoubted realisation. The sign of the son of man will be so profoundly evident giving rise to the kings of the earth and high officials, millitary commanders, rich, poor, free and enslaved cry to the mountains and the rock like institutions and organisations saying 'Hide us from the one seated on the throne and from the lamb for thier day has come'! Rev 6:15-17.

Janet Yellen of U.S Treasury on Jan 13th sent letter to House speaker Mcarthy saying "Treasury will hit debt ceiling Jan 19th and is in threat of default!" ...9min in

 

[SusanB]

Janet Yellen of U.S Treasury on Jan 13th sent letter to House speaker Mcarthy saying "Treasury will hit debt ceiling Jan 19th and is in threat of default!" ...9min in

And with the House of Reps being under control of Republicans, it could result in default if they get stubborn enough.

 

[SusanB]

I didn't want to upset anyone with my post. I just thought it was an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of before. TBH, I think Revvzone did a thread about it here some time back.

I could see it being true but I will go with RK's explanation for now. Some of the Bible prophecies we won't understand until after they're fulfilled.

Well your Avatar is that ”You Make Kitty Scared”! Just joking. Different perspectives are interesting to consider.