Does the great tribulation begin when false religion is destroyed?

[Watchman]

In your estimation, does the great tribulation start with world governments turning on and destroying false religion? And, is this the life / death cut off point for the wicked who have not repented?

It is not a matter of estimating the probabilities. The Bible exhorts Christians to make sure of all things. The wise apostle even advised us not to believe every inspired expression, but we are told to test things out to see if they originate with God or not. It is not rocket science. It is just a matter of honest reasoning.

Human nature being what it is, when we hear something repeated over and over in a matter-of-fact way we tend to believe it and not question it; especially if we regard those making the statements as experts. That is certainly the case with Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower. Over and over the Watchtower states that the great tribulation will begin when the militarized horns of the wild beast turn upon the harlot. They might throw in a scriptural citation in the 17th chapter of Revelation or they might not. In any case, there is no support in the Bible for the Watchtower’s claim that the great tribulation will begin when the beast turns on the harlot.

I challenge any JW to use the Bible to prove what the WT teaches.

Originally, the underlying basis for the Watchtower’s assumption was based upon the fact that Jesus foretold that the trampling of Jerusalem would coincide with a great tribulation that would come upon the entire inhabited earth. Because Jerusalem was cast off by God 40 years into the Christian era the Watchtower taught that Jerusalem represents Christendom. (They seem to have quietly phased that out) If that were true, though, why would it be necessary for Christians to flee when they see the disgusting thing standing where it ought not?

Furthermore, if the tribulation is merely the end of false religion why would it be necessary for God to intervene to cut it short? If the tribulation is simply the outlawing of religion why would the entire human race be imperiled?

As far as the cutoff date it is best to assume the cutoff date is tomorrow. As Paul wrote: “Today is the day of salvation”

 

[PJ54]

Found this:

When Does Babylon Fall?

e-watchman.com

 

[White Stone]

From what I understand, the Great Tribulation starts when the Wild Beast attacks God’s people.(Revelation 13:5-8) That’s why at verse 10 it says: “This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.”

The attack on JW’s in Russia is one example of what might happen in the future globally or in great scale.

What surprise it will be for most of JW’s when they saw the WT being attacked instead of the harlot first.

 

[PJ54]

From what I understand, the Great Tribulation starts when the Wild Beast attacks God’s people.(Revelation 13:5-8) That’s why at verse 10 it says: “This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.”

The attack on JW’s in Russia is one example of what might happen in the future globally or in great scale.

What surprise it will be for most of JW’s when they saw the WT being attacked instead of the harlot first.

Israel did go into Babylon before it fell, so it's only natural that this would be the case.

 

[Jonah]

The teaching that was taught to us was that the beast turning on the harlot would result in religious adherents taking up arms against the beast and this would result in the great tribulation. I will admit, the idea that Muslims, for instance, would accept the end of their religion without violence seems ludicrous. Then again, their governments are theocracies so the idea that their governments would outlaw religion when it is the source of their authority seems farfetched to say the least.

 

[kirmmy]

Found this:

When Does Babylon Fall?

e-watchman.com

Thanks PJ. I just finished reading this article and it's full of truth bombs, as they say. RK just cuts through the horse pucky with this one. Excellent article and gives you a rough framework of what's going to happen shortly.

 

[LifeLearning]

It is not rocket science. It is just a matter of honest reasoning.

Wonderful way to say this! "Honest Reasoning" is something that is almost extinct. The more I see people unwilling to be honest and be reasonable the more I know this system can not last much longer.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

The teaching that was taught to us was that the beast turning on the harlot would result in religious adherents taking up arms against the beast and this would result in the great tribulation. I will admit, the idea that Muslims, for instance, would accept the end of their religion without violence seems ludicrous. Then again, their governments are tbeocracies so the idea that their governments would outlaw religion when it is the source of their authority seems farfetched to say the least.

That would depend on whether their religion is true to itself. I wonder really how many religions can claim to represent god when they are so cruel and oppressive and actually really believe that any god would be pleased with them. And how can anyone really believe that to die for the cause is rewarded with virgins and from where do these materialise? When sex is the reward where is spirituality ? Man’s religions have always been about control, and watchtower is certainly a prime example of control and (spiritual) execution for wrongdoers outwardly, but inwardly, seethes with worldly collusion and all the hollow benefits of wealth and fraternisation.

 

[Melinda]

Found this:

When Does Babylon Fall?

e-watchman.com

Thanks you PJ for posting....I had to read it twice...so much to take in..but it all fits!

 

[BillyRay]

The teaching that was taught to us was that the beast turning on the harlot would result in religious adherents taking up arms against the beast and this would result in the great tribulation. I will admit, the idea that Muslims, for instance, would accept the end of their religion without violence seems ludicrous. Then again, their governments are theocracies so the idea that their governments would outlaw religion when it is the source of their authority seems farfetched to say the least.

This is one I always struggled with as well. But then, hearing Roberts thoughts on the likely use of nuclear weapons…. I asked myself…. What if they aren’t around?

 

[DR74minus]

Found this:

When Does Babylon Fall?

e-watchman.com

I've read this article a couple times already Thanks for the post. A good reminder. Some parts I recall and some I forgot. One aspect of the W/T's teaching that I worked out many years ago is that they falsely apply scripture to the clergy and Christendom. Mt 13:41, 1 Thes 2:2-12. Therefore the W/T is unable to connect the Edit anti-typical trampling of Jerusalem to Christs's congregation in modern times. I do believe right or wrong, that the W/T did teach correctly that "Nation will rise against nation" was the start of the GT. Their timing was a bit/lot off they had the numbers mixed up

 

[Jordan Seager]

Who's to know that we may have some centuries still to go..... I know Jesus stated in Matthew 24 that a specific generation will not pass away, the 1914 generation is proven to be incorrect, the love of the greater number is still warn, no? So how do we really know? I think we're still at the beginnings of the pangs of distress. Then there's the truth 'the actual truth' is still yet to be preached in all the inhabited earth, it's not possible in N-Korea, China, Singapore, most Islamic countries without getting an actual message out. Only a war that caused borders to collapse on a global scale with a post-war Blade Runner like society would allow that to happen. The end will not come until that happens, no? What's to say the WT is only a catalyst for something bigger? It might be completely dissolved and a brand new denomination arises out of it, making people TRUELY hateful of it's existence along with the man of lawlessness at it's culmination. Would Jehovah really want a false teaching preached? I know JW's are hated for their faith, but not with an actual malice..... not yet.

Ack! This paragraph is a mess, it's only my wild schizo speculation 😅

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Who's to know that we may have some centuries still to go..... I know Jesus stated in Matthew 24 that a specific generation will not pass away, the 1914 generation is proven to be incorrect, the love of the greater number is still warn, no? So how do we really know? I think we're still at the beginnings of the pangs of distress. Then there's the truth 'the actual truth' is still yet to be preached in all the inhabited earth, it's not possible in N-Korea, China, Singapore, most Islamic countries without getting an actual message out. Only a war that caused borders to collapse on a global scale with a post-war Blade Runner like society would allow that to happen. The end will not come until that happens, no? What's to say the WT is only a catalyst for something bigger? It might be completely dissolved and a brand new denomination arises out of it, making people TRUELY hateful of it's existence along with the man of lawlessness at it's culmination. Would Jehovah really want a false teaching preached? I know JW's are hated for their faith, but not with an actual malice..... not yet.

Ack! This paragraph is a mess, it's only my wild schizo speculation 😅

There is no doubt that there will be a time of the end, if not from Jehovah, then certainly because of man. Only the methodology of getting there is in question. It seems that both parties are in a hurry to get to that point though, which is encouraging, and each with their own agenda. Of course, there is a third-party vested interest from Mr. De’ath, but that was an inevitable clause in everyone’s contract signed by our parents on our behalf, usually following a party, such in my families case when my sister arrived nine months after the end of the Second World War. (It is a strange thing about circumstances to understand that if Hitler was not born, then neither would my sister have been either! As it is, I’m sure she shares some of his characteristics!) We can also leave Hollywood and Blade-runner out of the scenario. China has had its share of missionaries from watchtower back in the sixties and before, but the objectivity and meaning of a 100% contact has already been rationalised on this site before. It appears that general proximity in understanding is a factor given that boundaries and borders do not inhibit truth. Land mass on the other hand, may equally come within the remit of entirety, ergo, Asia, European, African and so on. Personally, insofar as watchtower being a catalyst to something greater; how can that be? One could argue that this new AI site that has cropped up could be an all encompassing preacher if asked the right question, but then that rules out issues of prophesy such as responsibility and critically “ownership” and which constitutes the principle of heart condition.

I would surmise Jordan, that the world that we are now living in must be the end time for two non-scriptural reasons. The primary being war, and the second, a complete break-down of governance, howsoever caused. When one adds scriptural prophesy to the mix, its many facets describe the content and context of those two failures. Also, the scriptural message is a response to such a catastrophe rather than the cause of it. A prophesy does not cause an event. The scriptures speak of the nations being drawn into judgement as with hooks in the jaw. We have reached a stage wherein the dice have already been played because if one thing is clear at this time, it is that not one person is ’…knowing the way out.’ I think you are certainly correct - the whole world is schizophrenic - a real “me too” moment.

 

[Carl]

Who's to know that we may have some centuries still to go..... I know Jesus stated in Matthew 24 that a specific generation will not pass away, the 1914 generation is proven to be incorrect, the love of the greater number is still warn, no? So how do we really know? I think we're still at the beginnings of the pangs of distress. Then there's the truth 'the actual truth' is still yet to be preached in all the inhabited earth, it's not possible in N-Korea, China, Singapore, most Islamic countries without getting an actual message out. Only a war that caused borders to collapse on a global scale with a post-war Blade Runner like society would allow that to happen. The end will not come until that happens, no? What's to say the WT is only a catalyst for something bigger? It might be completely dissolved and a brand new denomination arises out of it, making people TRUELY hateful of it's existence along with the man of lawlessness at it's culmination. Would Jehovah really want a false teaching preached? I know JW's are hated for their faith, but not with an actual malice..... not yet.

My sons are new to the Truth being in their heart, but have heard me preach the end is near all their lives. They believe as you do, and I've softened my doomsday rhetoric. I've been warning about financial collapse since 2008, yet here we are, 14 years later and we can still go to the store and buy food for a relatively reasonable price. I had no idea they could extend things this long, but knowing Satan's in charge means his intelligence is behind it. The fact is, this system will go on until Jehovah's had enough, which I hope is soon.

How long will Jehovah allow children to suffer? How long will He allow them to be propagandized into "alternative" lifestyles? It doesn't seem fair at this point. With the COVID lies bubbling to the surface, as well as people waking up to the lies about war and the financial system... it's my conclusion that this system can't survive much longer. If Jehovah doesn't cut it short, then China could displace the US financial system due solely to our debt being unworkable. The message will be preached during the 3 & 1/2 year HOT... then the end will come. So the conditions for the Great Tribulation to kick off are met... it's up to Jehovah when the hammer falls. That said, I've told my boys to prepare for some miracle technological breakthrough to be unveiled, which could extend this system another 100 years. I doubt this will happen, but it's foolish to be unprepared and sell your winter coat.

 

[DR74minus]

Christ will come into his kingdom at the appointed time according to Jehovah's will. The anointed will be eye witnesses of Christ's manifestation. revelation, parousia. but they don't know when that will be, but when it happens I suspect that the other sheep will have an idea what is going on. I'll take a stab in the dark and say it has not happened yet. however, we can rest assured that Jehovah's day will not be late. We just need to hold up our end of the stick, so to speak.

 

[Jordan Seager]

There is no doubt that there will be a time of the end, if not from Jehovah, then certainly because of man. Only the methodology of getting there is in question. It seems that both parties are in a hurry to get to that point though, which is encouraging, and each with their own agenda. Of course, there is a third-party vested interest from Mr. De’ath, but that was an inevitable clause in everyone’s contract signed by our parents on our behalf, usually following a party, such in my families case when my sister arrived nine months after the end of the Second World War. (It is a strange thing about circumstances to understand that if Hitler was not born, then neither would my sister have been either! As it is, I’m sure she shares some of his characteristics!) We can also leave Hollywood and Blade-runner out of the scenario. China has had its share of missionaries from watchtower back in the sixties and before, but the objectivity and meaning of a 100% contact has already been rationalised on this site before. It appears that general proximity in understanding is a factor given that boundaries and borders do not inhibit truth. Land mass on the other hand, may equally come within the remit of entirety, ergo, Asia, European, African and so on. Personally, insofar as watchtower being a catalyst to something greater; how can that be? One could argue that this new AI site that has cropped up could be an all encompassing preacher if asked the right question, but then that rules out issues of prophesy such as responsibility and critically “ownership” and which constitutes the principle of heart condition.

I would surmise Jordan, that the world that we are now living in must be the end time for two non-scriptural reasons. The primary being war, and the second, a complete break-down of governance, howsoever caused. When one adds scriptural prophesy to the mix, its many facets describe the content and context of those two failures. Also, the scriptural message is a response to such a catastrophe rather than the cause of it. A prophesy does not cause an event. The scriptures speak of the nations being drawn into judgement as with hooks in the jaw. We have reached a stage wherein the dice have already been played because if one thing is clear at this time, it is that not one person is ’…knowing the way out.’ I think you are certainly correct - the whole world is schizophrenic - a real “me too” moment.

Please know that I'm still acquiring knowledge and information as the days go by, I'm still an amateur 😭

 

[KevinB]

It is not a matter of estimating the probabilities. The Bible exhorts Christians to make sure of all things. The wise apostle even advised us not to believe every inspired expression, but we are told to test things out to see if they originate with God or not. It is not rocket science. It is just a matter of honest reasoning.

Human nature being what it is, when we hear something repeated over and over in a matter-of-fact way we tend to believe it and not question it; especially if we regard those making the statements as experts. That is certainly the case with Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower. Over and over the Watchtower states that the great tribulation will begin when the militarized horns of the wild beast turn upon the harlot. They might throw in a scriptural citation in the 17th chapter of Revelation or they might not. In any case, there is no support in the Bible for the Watchtower’s claim that the great tribulation will begin when the beast turns on the harlot.

I challenge any JW to use the Bible to prove what the WT teaches.

Originally, the underlying basis for the Watchtower’s assumption was based upon the fact that Jesus foretold that the trampling of Jerusalem would coincide with a great tribulation that would come upon the entire inhabited earth. Because Jerusalem was cast off by God 40 years into the Christian era the Watchtower taught that Jerusalem represents Christendom. (They seem to have quietly phased that out) If that were true, though, why would it be necessary for Christians to flee when they see the disgusting thing standing where it ought not?

Furthermore, if the tribulation is merely the end of false religion why would it be necessary for God to intervene to cut it short? If the tribulation is simply the outlawing of religion why would the entire human race be imperiled?

As far as the cutoff date it is best to assume the cutoff date is tomorrow. As Paul wrote: “Today is the day of salvation”

Is Armageddon the same as the Great tribulation?

Here is something you can take to the bank, so to speak. First, look up and compare the blowing of the 7th trumpet at Revelation 11:15 with the pouring out of the 7th bowl of God’s anger at Revelation 16:17-21. Please study the verses in this paragraph and contemplate what you observe? Then answer this question: What happens at the sounding of the seventh trumpet blast and who is destroyed at the pouring out of the 7th bowl of God’s anger?

Did you observe that the Kingdom takes over the world at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, and “Babylon the Great” is destroyed when the 7th bowl of God’s anger is poured out? Is there an 8th trumpet blown or 8th bowl poured out for Armageddon? No. So what is Armageddon and when does it begin? Please ruminate on your answers to these questions for a while. Rest assured, as Babylon the Great undergoes destruction, although God’s faithful people may be targeted and their lives threatened, they will be divinely protected. Otherwise why are they told to ‘get out of her’ in the first place, if not to protect them from its destruction? (Re 18:5)

Pay special attention to the wording in regard to the destruction of Babylon the Great at Revelation 19:1, 2 - “After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves that is on her hands.”” The pronouncement is “the Salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God”. Does this not indicate that “the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ” is exercised during the destruction of Babylon the Great? (Re 12:10) Most certainly! It is an expression of God’s anger and an execution of his judgement.

 

[evw]

Rest assured, as Babylon the Great undergoes destruction, although God’s faithful people may be targeted and their lives threatened, they will be divinely protected. Otherwise why are they told to ‘get out of her’ in the first place, if not to protect them from its destruction?

So, I know I'm just a very simple soul, therefor my first question is: Who or what does Babylon the Great include, or even exclude for that matter? Before I can know 'where to go out'

 

[KevinB]

So, I know I'm just a very simple soul, therefor my first question is: Who or what does Babylon the Great include, or even exclude for that matter? Before I can know 'where to go out' View attachment 2708

Short and simple, All false religion. But before that happens people would have to appreciated what it is, am I right?

 

[evw]

Short and simple, All false religion. But before that happens people would have to appreciated what it is, am I right?

yes, yes, as always, with men in general, always implying never one straight forward answer;