Does the great tribulation begin when false religion is destroyed?

DR74minus

Well-known member
Please know that I'm still acquiring knowledge and information as the days go by, I'm still an amateur 😭:LOL:

I suspect you're talking about 100% of the world. All of us are continually "aquiring" knowledge. The one who does not, is probably not in the land of the living.
 

DR74minus

Well-known member
Is Armageddon the same as the Great tribulation?

Here is something you can take to the bank, so to speak. First, look up and compare the blowing of the 7th trumpet at Revelation 11:15 with the pouring out of the 7th bowl of God’s anger at Revelation 16:17-21. Please study the verses in this paragraph and contemplate what you observe? Then answer this question: What happens at the sounding of the seventh trumpet blast and who is destroyed at the pouring out of the 7th bowl of God’s anger?

Did you observe that the Kingdom takes over the world at the blowing of the 7th trumpet, and “Babylon the Great” is destroyed when the 7th bowl of God’s anger is poured out? Is there an 8th trumpet blown or 8th bowl poured out for Armageddon? No. So what is Armageddon and when does it begin? Please ruminate on your answers to these questions for a while. Rest assured, as Babylon the Great undergoes destruction, although God’s faithful people may be targeted and their lives threatened, they will be divinely protected. Otherwise why are they told to ‘get out of her’ in the first place, if not to protect them from its destruction? (Re 18:5)

Pay special attention to the wording in regard to the destruction of Babylon the Great at Revelation 19:1, 2 - “After this I heard what seemed to be a loud voice of a great crowd in heaven. They said: “Praise Jah! The salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God, because his judgments are true and righteous. For he has executed judgment on the great prostitute who corrupted the earth with her sexual immorality, and he has avenged the blood of his slaves that is on her hands.”” The pronouncement is “the Salvation and the glory and the power belong to our God”. Does this not indicate that “the salvation and the power and the Kingdom of our God and the authority of his Christ” is exercised during the destruction of Babylon the Great? (Re 12:10) Most certainly! It is an expression of God’s anger and an execution of his judgement.

I have never wondered if Armageddon is the same as the Great tribulation. But I have thought that Armageddon is a follow on from the G/T, in the sense that armageddon is the culmination of a sequence of events, which is why it is "plausible" to think that Armageddon is part of the 7th trumpet blast. However that is not to say that Armageddon and the G/T are the same event, due to the fact that the G/T will be cut short.

If we look at Rev 6 and 7 we see clearly ( I do at least, in spite of having no meaningful vision in one eye and can hardly see out the other ), that there is a definite mention of the G/T in ch 6:12 – 17 and the next few verses of ch 7 showing the angels holding back the 4 winds ( cutting the G/T short ), for the purpose of sealing the last of the 144,000. In other words there is a gap between the G/T and Armageddon. The Christ and the 144k stopped for afternoon tea prehaps. Edit Well maybe not have a cuppa, but certainly for the final sealing before the two witnesses are eventually killed by the wild beast Rev 11:7

Not sure what we spose to take to the bank? So the slag gets dealt to near the end rather than the ( start as the W/T teaches. ) How does that explain whether or not the G/T and Armageddon is one and the same? Or was you just throwing out a rhetorical question prehaps, BTW Rev 12 does not relate to the destruction of the Harlot. But thought provoking ideas in some of what you posted.

Cheers.
 
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BagdadBill

Well-known member
I always had my own understanding ( irrespective of WT teaching) that the tribulation is manmade whereas Armageddon is Jehovah bringing an end to all of our nonsense. Pestilence doesn't have to be manmade but it sure seems like it is lately, and I feel that you can include the jabs in that category. Food shortage in this day and age is unforgivable and most definitely manmade. War being the most obvious of the sign.

For me, the most convincing thing I notice is that many people are carrying on with life as usual as if nothing noteworthy has happened in the last few years. I feel confident that when we are in the middle of the great tribulation, that you won't need to ask if we're there yet. Likewise, somewhere in that timeline, expect to see attitudes change even more toward religion and God and government.
When Armageddon comes to pass, if you're alive, you'll know.
 

DR74minus

Well-known member
I always had my own understanding ( irrespective of WT teaching) that the tribulation is manmade whereas Armageddon is Jehovah bringing an end to all of our nonsense. Pestilence doesn't have to be manmade but it sure seems like it is lately, and I feel that you can include the jabs in that category. Food shortage in this day and age is unforgivable and most definitely manmade. War being the most obvious of the sign.

For me, the most convincing thing I notice is that many people are carrying on with life as usual as if nothing noteworthy has happened in the last few years. I feel confident that when we are in the middle of the great tribulation, that you won't need to ask if we're there yet. Likewise, somewhere in that timeline, expect to see attitudes change even more toward religion and God and government.
When Armageddon comes to pass, if you're alive, you'll know.

Plus Armageddon is not coming like a thief in the night, because the awake ones would be on high alert, after having gone through the testing period.
 

DavidCJ

Well-known member
My sons are new to the Truth being in their heart, but have heard me preach the end is near all their lives. They believe as you do, and I've softened my doomsday rhetoric. I've been warning about financial collapse since 2008, yet here we are, 14 years later and we can still go to the store and buy food for a relatively reasonable price. I had no idea they could extend things this long, but knowing Satan's in charge means his intelligence is behind it. The fact is, this system will go on until Jehovah's had enough, which I hope is soon.
I've read from one site that basically most of the ones that can be identified right-wing sites misled people into believing financial collapse is imminent and people lost money from such bad advice. I think from Jehovah's point of view sure, it was doomed to collapse since Adam and Eve. But investments are always about opportunities.

Also it can be argued in 2008, things were not that bad. As of right now, things are way worse. They are full force in schools, workplace, media, and government.

You might be interested in a video(on Youtube) dubbed Mouse Utopia. An experiment conducted in the early 1900's to see how the developed nations will turn out.

To summarize:
-Few mice were introduced to an environment free of predators, and plenty of food and water. The food/water stations were placed equidistant to each other.
-In a very short amount of time the population exploded. The key point isn't "overpopulation", but focused gathering in specific places, much like human cities, and nothing in between.
-At that point societal problems started emerging: Multiple sexual partners, sexual deviancy, female mice becoming leaders of the household(feminism?), loss of familial love(mother attacking child), same sex relations, violence, and fighting over land and resources! It even talked about people who avoided society altogether and were called the "beautiful ones" because they spent all day grooming alone. Kinda like what's happening in places like Japan for a while now and starting to surface in other developed countries.
-Shortly after the population crashes. It goes very quickly to zero.
-The key point is that you need combination of a wealthy country plus high population density to work. One or the other isn't enough. That's why Japan is a good example.

Most sources about SHTF scenario agree on ~2030 being the timeframe. Considering the radical changes since 2008, and nevermind just 5 years ago, that's enough time. THEN China takes over as the superpower. Since the US-Anglo system sprouted from the Roman system, I agree it's the one that'll end up in destruction. We're not gonna last hundred years. There are too many signs.

I do agree on places like North Korea needing to open. Something big is about to happen, and very soon. Big as in Vaccine mandate big. Big as in covid lockdowns big.
 
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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I've read from one site that basically most of the ones that can be identified right-wing sites misled people into believing financial collapse is imminent and people lost money from such bad advice. I think from Jehovah's point of view sure, it was doomed to collapse since Adam and Eve. But investments are always about opportunities.

Also it can be argued in 2008, things were not that bad. As of right now, things are way worse. They are full force in schools, workplace, media, and government.

You might be interested in a video(on Youtube) dubbed Mouse Utopia. An experiment conducted in the early 1900's to see how the developed nations will turn out.

To summarize:
-Few mice were introduced to an environment free of predators, and plenty of food and water. The food/water stations were placed equidistant to each other.
-In a very short amount of time the population exploded. The key point isn't "overpopulation", but focused gathering in specific places, much like human cities, and nothing in between.
-At that point societal problems started emerging: Multiple sexual partners, sexual deviancy, female mice becoming leaders of the household(feminism?), loss of familial love(mother attacking child), same sex relations, violence, and fighting over land and resources! It even talked about people who avoided society altogether and were called the "beautiful ones" because they spent all day grooming alone. Kinda like what's happening in places like Japan for a while now and starting to surface in other developed countries.
-Shortly after the population crashes. It goes very quickly to zero.
-The key point is that you need combination of a wealthy country plus high population density to work. One or the other isn't enough. That's why Japan is a good example.

Most sources about SHTF scenario agree on ~2030 being the timeframe. Considering the radical changes since 2008, and nevermind just 5 years ago, that's enough time. THEN China takes over as the superpower. Since the US-Anglo system sprouted from the Roman system, I agree it's the one that'll end up in destruction. We're not gonna last hundred years. There are too many signs.

I do agree on places like North Korea needing to open. Something big is about to happen, and very soon. Big as in Vaccine mandate big. Big as in covid lockdowns big.
I think the mice got the idea from men rather than the other way around!
 
W

w_stone

Guest
Who is Babylon the great .the Bible in Rev says it the top ranking People .Who are they .Not religious leads..The top ranking people who ride the wild beast (Anglo American power)are the milti national corporations and the super rich man like Gates Rockefeller .They are running the 2 Horned wild beast.A example of how they demonstrated there power is what happened during the Covid pandemic. GET IT OR die. The woman is the super Rich.not Religion. MORE OIL for your lamp Brothers
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
Who is Babylon the great .the Bible in Rev says it the top ranking People .Who are they .Not religious leads..The top ranking people who ride the wild beast (Anglo American power)are the milti national corporations and the super rich man like Gates Rockefeller .They are running the 2 Horned wild beast.A example of how they demonstrated there power is what happened during the Covid pandemic. GET IT OR die. The woman is the super Rich.not Religion. MORE OIL for your lamp Brothers
You are saying the pope is not one of the top-ranking men? Incredible.
 

DR74minus

Well-known member
I've read from one site that basically most of the ones that can be identified right-wing sites misled people into believing financial collapse is imminent and people lost money from such bad advice. I think from Jehovah's point of view sure, it was doomed to collapse since Adam and Eve. But investments are always about opportunities.

Also it can be argued in 2008, things were not that bad. As of right now, things are way worse. They are full force in schools, workplace, media, and government.

You might be interested in a video(on Youtube) dubbed Mouse Utopia. An experiment conducted in the early 1900's to see how the developed nations will turn out.

To summarize:
-Few mice were introduced to an environment free of predators, and plenty of food and water. The food/water stations were placed equidistant to each other.
-In a very short amount of time the population exploded. The key point isn't "overpopulation", but focused gathering in specific places, much like human cities, and nothing in between.
-At that point societal problems started emerging: Multiple sexual partners, sexual deviancy, female mice becoming leaders of the household(feminism?), loss of familial love(mother attacking child), same sex relations, violence, and fighting over land and resources! It even talked about people who avoided society altogether and were called the "beautiful ones" because they spent all day grooming alone. Kinda like what's happening in places like Japan for a while now and starting to surface in other developed countries.
-Shortly after the population crashes. It goes very quickly to zero.
-The key point is that you need combination of a wealthy country plus high population density to work. One or the other isn't enough. That's why Japan is a good example.

Most sources about SHTF scenario agree on ~2030 being the timeframe. Considering the radical changes since 2008, and nevermind just 5 years ago, that's enough time. THEN China takes over as the superpower. Since the US-Anglo system sprouted from the Roman system, I agree it's the one that'll end up in destruction. We're not gonna last hundred years. There are too many signs.

I do agree on places like North Korea needing to open. Something big is about to happen, and very soon. Big as in Vaccine mandate big. Big as in covid lockdowns big.

The banks are the real movers. keep an eye on them.
 
M

Man from Berea

Guest
Originally, the underlying basis for the Watchtower’s assumption was based upon the fact that Jesus foretold that the trampling of Jerusalem would coincide with a great tribulation that would come upon the entire inhabited earth. Because Jerusalem was cast off by God 40 years into the Christian era the Watchtower taught that Jerusalem represents Christendom. (They seem to have quietly phased that out) If that were true, though, why would it be necessary for Christians to flee when they see the disgusting thing standing where it ought not?
When they say "Peace and safety" sudden destruction will befall them, which is the beginning of the great tribulation and the destruction of Babylon the Great - teaches the Watchtower.
Yes, this teaches the Watchtower and no the Bible teaches. (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981844)

Why sure this? The reference, 3 citation location: 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3; Mathew 24:21; Revelation 17:16

For me fully understand, that this is a logical the result of an inference, and not Bible teaches. In the Biblie nowhere, and nothing not connects this three citation.
 
M

Man from Berea

Guest
Human nature being what it is, when we hear something repeated over and over in a matter-of-fact way we tend to believe it and not question it; especially if we regard those making the statements as experts. That is certainly the case with Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Watchtower.
This quite spirit of this world. Advertisements are also based on this. With a little exaggeration, I say that: Here derailed The Watchtower. This method not road of Jehovah. (This only a Human philosophy)
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
When they say "Peace and safety" sudden destruction will befall them, which is the beginning of the great tribulation and the destruction of Babylon the Great - teaches the Watchtower.
Yes, this teaches the Watchtower and no the Bible teaches. (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981844)

Why sure this? The reference, 3 citation location: 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3; Mathew 24:21; Revelation 17:16

For me fully understand, that this is a logical the result of an inference, and not Bible teaches. In the Biblie nowhere, and nothing not connects this three citation.
You are right. There is nothing in the scriptures that directly connects those things. Obviously, though, there is a succession of events. First comes their saying "peace and security." The "sudden destruction" comes upon those saying it -- likely, the Anglo-American duo and Europe. Then, the ascension of the eighth king for "one-hour." Finally, the destruction of the whore of Babylon.
 
M

Man from Berea

Guest
When they say "Peace and safety" sudden destruction will befall them, which is the beginning of the great tribulation and the destruction of Babylon the Great - teaches the Watchtower.
Yes, this teaches the Watchtower and no the Bible teaches. (https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1981844)

Why sure this? The reference, 3 citation location: 1 Thessalonians 5:2, 3; Mathew 24:21; Revelation 17:16

For me fully understand, that this is a logical the result of an inference, and not Bible teaches. In the Biblie nowhere, and nothing not connects this three citation.

Where is the error in connecting these 3 quotes? Matthew 24 and Luke 21 will help you figure it out.

Matthew 24:15 speaks of the "abomination of desolation,"* and we know that it was the Roman army that came to Jerusalem in the first century. As the cause of the tribulation, Luke 21:20 "speaks of the armies encamped around Jerusalem" and the destruction of Jerusalem was approaching. Babylon the Great is not mentioned by Jesus.
So there is no reason to pair Matthew 24:21 with Revelation 17:16. Or perhaps Jerusalem = Babylon the Great? (The context say otherwise)
Not to mention, how would 1 Thessalonians 5:2-3 fit in here?

I've been thinking about these for a long time. It's worth thinking about!

*“sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation"
 
M

Man from Berea

Guest
From what I understand, the Great Tribulation starts when the Wild Beast attacks God’s people.(Revelation 13:5-8) That’s why at verse 10 it says: “This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.”

The attack on JW’s in Russia is one example of what might happen in the future globally or in great scale.

What surprise it will be for most of JW’s when they saw the WT being attacked instead of the harlot first.

Yes. For me this also interesting: "For it is the appointed time for the judgment to start with the house of God. Now if it starts first with us, what will the outcome be for those who are not obedient to the good news of God?" (1 Peter 4:17)

+
For me, the 'vaccination war' (psychic pressures) and the internal attack (man of lawlessness) are also things to think about!
It is interesting that while the slave was giving advice (in magazine articles) against depression, he himself was constantly exerting psychological pressure on the flock!
Isn't that strange?
Isn't it thought-provoking?
To whom, what does this show?

The slave is 'very clever'! He puts the flock to sleep in such a way that everyone thinks about self they are awake!

The "man of lawlessness" in the past is well explained by the slave!
But there is no indication of who he is today! And if there is a test at the end of the thousand years, why not would be before this 1000 year?
Let's think about the anointed! They are the first to be tried, in their loyalty. (There will be no more trials for the anointed in heaven. Or yes?)
That is why the test by the man of lawlessness is "allowed" (I think).

Don't forget! If the "man of lawlessness" only existed in the first centuries and does not exist today, then...?
Then, how would Jesus destroy him today? If he lived in the past, he is long dead. So he can only be destroyed in the end times, and if he is alive then? Then it's today! No true?
 
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kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
“There will be no more trials for the anointed in heaven.” Or yes?)
How do you try one who has been granted immortality? To be granted such by Jehovah indicates that such a person could
never stray from or rebel against Jehovah.
It is an impossibility.
 
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