GB's new understanding r.e. clinking glasses

I think you touch on an important point. It’s all very well not to celebrate a birthday if it’s understood why, but impressing such reasoning upon a child has to be done pro-rata with their understanding - at least it is so, if one has an holistic and empathetic insight into the developing mind and reasoning of the child. Most children simply do not understand critical issues of sharing and demonstrative issues of love, especially spiritual love and it’s basis in human relationships.

Spirituality is, without doubt, alive in an infant. Attachment to parents is one such indicator, along with an innate sense of normality in things spiritual. We are not strangers to spirituality - it dwells within us naturally. But social development within the sphere of society is a different ballgame altogether. This is essentially where the breathtaking ignorance in shepherding betrays the very substance of having “love amongst yourselves” that the gb claim to have. The tragic outcomes of CSA within watchtower is signal evidence of that. Balance in values can achieve strength in faith. Upset that balance and one puts a stumbling block in the way of others, especially children.
With my own kids I explained Jehovah's view of celebrating birthdays as best as I could but I also said that our family does other things which many other families do not do. It wasn't very long before all of them realised that none of us ever missed out on anything, in fact, they would tell me that they received and did more of most things due to us living our lives the way we did. One particular thing that opened their eyes to birthday parties more than anything else was whenever they were invited to a friend's birthday party I would always speak to the parent. I'd thank them for the invitation and explain best I could and then I would finish by saying that if ever they organised a party just for a party's sake my kids would love to go. Their reply was always "oh no, I'm only doing a party because it's their birthday, I wouldn't willingly do one for no reason at all! too much like hard work!! So, my kids friends used to come to OUR parties instead ☺️ My kids learned a valuable lesson from that, which was, to many people, celebrating birthdays is done with an obligatory spirit, and not with a willing one and that if it wasn't their friends birthday, then their mum wouldn't be arranging a party. As they got older, they quickly saw through through all the other commercial "days" A few witnesses over the years expressed their disapproval of me though for organising the parties because they were quite big events, having 4 kids, all inviting a couple of their school mates each (🤯) and a couple each from the congregations, plus I used to bring in a children's entertainer sometimes and they often did kiddies "magic" so it didn't go down too well with some of the adults. The kids loved it though and that's who I did it for 😍
** Sleight of hand "magic" not the Egyptian Magic Practising Priests Magic!!!;
 
I think you touch on an important point. It’s all very well not to celebrate a birthday if it’s understood why, but impressing such reasoning upon a child has to be done pro-rata with their understanding - at least it is so, if one has an holistic and empathetic insight into the developing mind and reasoning of the child. Most children simply do not understand critical issues of sharing and demonstrative issues of love, especially spiritual love and it’s basis in human relationships.

Spirituality is, without doubt, alive in an infant. Attachment to parents is one such indicator, along with an innate sense of normality in things spiritual. We are not strangers to spirituality - it dwells within us naturally. But social development within the sphere of society is a different ballgame altogether. This is essentially where the breathtaking ignorance in shepherding betrays the very substance of having “love amongst yourselves” that the gb claim to have. The tragic outcomes of CSA within watchtower is signal evidence of that. Balance in values can achieve strength in faith. Upset that balance and one puts a stumbling block in the way of others, especially children.
After reading Paul's words at Romans14:5 I like you B have a more balanced view and have refrained from judging those who regard one day over another. "One man judges one day as above another, another judges one day the same as all others, let each one be fully convinced in his own mind."
 
After reading Paul's words at Romans14:5 I like you B have a more balanced view and have refrained from judging those who regard one day over another. "One man judges one day as above another, another judges one day the same as all others, let each one be fully convinced in his own mind."
And that's the secret Mick "fully convinced" and the only way to be fully convinced of anything is to to research everything, properly. Jehovah tells us to be like the Beroans, to see if these things are REALLY so. Or, we can just be lukewarm and be blown about hither and thither and just getting our ears tickled..
 
And that's the secret Mick "fully convinced" and the only way to be fully convinced of anything is to to research everything, properly. Jehovah tells us to be like the Beroans, to see if these things are REALLY so. Or, we can just be lukewarm and be blown about hither and thither and just getting our ears tickled..
Yes make sure of all things for says Romans 14:23 "He that has doubts is already condemned......Indeed everything that is not based on faith is sin."
 
Meanwhile, this is what I found on exjw Reddit concerning the clinking of glasses.

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Meanwhile, this is what I found on exjw Reddit concerning the clinking of glasses.

View attachment 8868
Well it's too late, they've taken control of all the kingdom halls and working their way through the assembly halls now too. That says they're in charge. They wouldn't have a leg to stand on in court..
 
To be honest I've seen wedding anniversary parties within the congregation which I felt were way too much. If the reason is to not put a person in the center on attention, than some of these parties are definitely that.
Bitter old man alert:

I am not sure anyone has mentioned this yet but high school graduation parties for individuals in the congregation are a huge deal here in Hawaii. Talk about self worship? The families whose kid has the party rents a big hall like the high school gym, produces a lengthy photo-history-drama of the child's entire life complete with music and subtitles and plays that video on a huge screen while the graduate sits alone on the stage as the featured star of the show. If they possess some kind of talent like playing a musical instrument or good at hula, they will then perform in front of the entire throng with great admiration and applause after the performance, (this is pre-glass clinking of course LOL). The prayer prior to the meal is all about the kid and how great they are. We have been to MANY of these because someone graduates every year, right? Susan has a reputation in the congregation for being very generous to the graduate (and others) so we are certain to always get an invite because the gift giving is what it is all about, like a wedding almost LOL. To me, it is one of the most self agrandizing, self worshipping, over the top functions I have ever been to. Year after year I would always think, if we do this, we might as well just throw birthday parties.

I know, I know, it is a special deal to graduate and the youngster is now "of age" so it is a big deal for the parents too. I understand that. Let the kid go off and enjoy his/her grad with their friends, but to have a full blown congregation sanctioned function to celebrate for the sake of the graduate and their parents is very self centered, just as a birthday party would be if done the worldly way. In this matter, if I sound like a bitter old man, I relent because in this particular matter I am. My high school graduation celebration was being kicked out of the family home for getting baptized as a JW just a month prior. Boy, that sure is a long resentment ain't it? 🤣🤣 Anyway, usually I just say to the (male) kid, "glad you made it through high school, now off to Bethel you go!"
 
Hi. I haven't been on this forum for a while, so I hope everyone is well.
I was wondering what thoughts people had about Bro Lett's talk about the GB concluding clinking glasses should be a matter of conscious, as most people who do it don't see any religious/superstitious relevance to it. (Paraphrasing)
Also, do you think this new understanding may lead to the GB making birthday celebrations a matter of conscious for the same reasons?
More importantly, those of you who are still "mentally in" and don't currently celebrate birthdays, if the GB does an about turn, will you then start celebrating birthdays?
Thanks
Jesus passed just the one cup of wine, so there was no clinking allowed. Clinking might be the undiservable sin. Who knows.
 
Been working nights, so haven't been on here in a bit. I never knew about any restrictions on toasting. Lol. I say cheers all the time. I loved the show Cheers. And if you really try you can probably relate just about everything back to paganism somehow. What's that game called six degrees of Kevin Bacon? So where you can somehow relate almost anything back to Kevin Bacon.

Anyway, cheers everybody.
 
And that's the secret Mick "fully convinced" and the only way to be fully convinced of anything is to to research everything, properly. Jehovah tells us to be like the Beroans, to see if these things are REALLY so. Or, we can just be lukewarm and be blown about hither and thither and just getting our ears tickled..
It takes a great deal of rethinking years of watchtower doctrine, and a great deal more insight to unravel the psychology of the gaslighting effect. That people cannot do this easily is highlighted by the unfortunate sheep that could no longer look behind the veil so to speak, and lost their trust in others. When someone cannot fathom out the issue of trust (and which is largely a matter of consistency and vigilance on behalf of both parties), then they simply freewheel through life without making a decision. The scripture mentions it “like waves upon the sea shore”.

The Borean question has always been a problem for me in that living in a world where things either are, or are not, “making sure of all things” is impossible and so one must rely on consistency and outcomes in their context to develop faith and understanding.I recall my mother telling me about electricity and not to stick my fingers in the plug - so of course, one has to seek other ways to establish trust in truth than determining what truth is the hard way - even if it is “enlightening”.
 
The Borean question has always been a problem for me in that living in a world where things either are, or are not, “making sure of all things” is impossible and so one must rely on consistency and outcomes in their context to develop faith and understanding.

Do you see any correlation between "making sure of all things" with the apostle Paul's epistle to the believers in Phillippia?

I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me. — Phillippians 4:13 American Standard Version

The NWT doesn't unwrap the original language sufficiently in its rendering of the apostle Paul's words, which is why I cited the ASV here.

In his letter to the believers of Thessalonica, it appears that the apostle Paul is simply saying the same thing, just writing it in a slightly different way:

Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine. — 1 Thessalonians 5:21 New World Translation

What is fine? "him that strengthens me" as our Exemplar and Teacher. Jesus seems to be saying the same thing, when he uses the teaching technique of repetition for emphasis, using the expression three times in a row.

I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep. The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees—and the wolf snatches them and scatters them— because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep. I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep. — John 10:11-15 New World Translation

Keeping in mind that it wasn't until Peter stopped holding fast (with his eye on Jesus as he tread the waters), and became overwhelmed by the storm all about him, and started sinking in the tumultuous waters. How quickly we, too, can become overwhelmed by everything that is going on around us, unless we, too, hold fast to what IS fine: our Exemplar and Teacher and Shepherd.

Not trying to stir up a debate. Just offering for consideration.

—Timothy,
a believer.
 
What is fine? "him that strengthens me" as our Exemplar and Teacher. Jesus seems to be saying the same thing, when he uses the teaching technique of repetition for emphasis, using the expression three times in a row.
Strengthening encouragement brother Timothy; Thankyou. Your scriptures give such weight! Yes those ones running Bethel are hired men: Their NGO affiliation exposes them. Thanks for your work here, the site is great!
 
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It takes a great deal of rethinking years of watchtower doctrine, and a great deal more insight to unravel the psychology of the gaslighting effect. That people cannot do this easily is highlighted by the unfortunate sheep that could no longer look behind the veil so to speak, and lost their trust in others. When someone cannot fathom out the issue of trust (and which is largely a matter of consistency and vigilance on behalf of both parties), then they simply freewheel through life without making a decision. The scripture mentions it “like waves upon the sea shore”.

The Borean question has always been a problem for me in that living in a world where things either are, or are not, “making sure of all things” is impossible and so one must rely on consistency and outcomes in their context to develop faith and understanding.I recall my mother telling me about electricity and not to stick my fingers in the plug - so of course, one has to seek other ways to establish trust in truth than determining what truth is the hard way - even if it is “enlightening”.
The Borean thing hasn't been a problem for me. I saw them as people who simply double checked things and information rather than just believing what other people tell me, including Jah's org back in the day (I never knew much about the "GB" when I first studied studying and I wasn't particularly interested in them either) The best thing I ever did to prove the truth to myself was to scour the charity shops for different translations of the Bible because so many people insisted that the JW's had "their own" Bible to "fit" their beliefs. I studied for 10yrs before I was ready to get baptised and face all the craziness that was to come. It definitely paid off. I've always used the Beroan attitude in other areas of my life, double checking most things, even if I do come across as a paranoid Polly 🤣 my hubby always says "just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're not after you!!" From his favourite book "Catch 22" The way I see it, if Jehovah knows I double check things and yet I unknowingly still come up with the "wrong" answer (think cheersing 😆) then he's not going to punish us is he? It's the wrong that we KNOWINGLY do that's bad, not the wrong we unwittingly do ☺️
 
Strengthening encouragement brother Timothy; Thankyou. Your scriptures give such weight! Yes those ones running Bethel are hired men: Their NGO affiliation exposes them. Thanks for your work here, the site is great!
Eversince I found out about the UN stuff, their Watchtower and Awake articles that UN promoted stick out more and more now. In the mid week meeting in a couple of weeks time they're going to be bringing out a so called questions from readers from about 20yrs ago. I don't remember reading it at the time due to my life being chaotic but honestly, it's pretty bad information, more gaslighting, and more evidence that Satan wants us all sick or dead. It's the Spiritual Gems part. "What's the difference between Gluttony and Obesity?" Check out the article they're linking to. Crazy 😬
 
Eversince I found out about the UN stuff, their Watchtower and Awake articles that UN promoted stick out more and more now. In the mid week meeting in a couple of weeks time they're going to be bringing out a so called questions from readers from about 20yrs ago. I don't remember reading it at the time due to my life being chaotic but honestly, it's pretty bad information, more gaslighting, and more evidence that Satan wants us all sick or dead. It's the Spiritual Gems part. "What's the difference between Gluttony and Obesity?" Check out the article they're linking to. Crazy 😬
Please keep us informed of those questions sister and thanks for your feet on the ground there. I hope your life is not so chaotic now?
 
Please keep us informed of those questions sister and thanks for your feet on the ground there. I hope your life is not so chaotic now?
I'll send a link.. ha! Life became so chaotic that I just gave up and went with it so to speak, I was spinning too many plates and just dropped them all 😆 and since then it's been, you know, qué sera sera and now I just take one day at a time, just like Jesus advises, took me a very long time to get to that stage though, I thought I could do everything, all the time.. here it is.. you can just imagine how many jws jumped on this 21yrs ago, and will continue to do so when they're reminded of it in a couple of weeks time. Me personally, I've never met a food greedy person who's not obese, and I've never met an obese person who's life doesn't revolve around food. Still, Watchtower, you just keep promoting the UN's (Satan's) goals as opposed to healthy lifestyles. Won't suprise me if next year's Awake will be promoting all these horrific "fat" injections obese people are taking now. I know loadsa people who are taking part in yet another "experiment" 🤐

The Watchtower, November 1, 2004
Questions From Readers
"For example, obesity may be a sign of gluttony, but that is not always the case. One’s being overweight may be the result of an ailment. Hereditary factors may also contribute to obesity. We should also keep in mind that obesity is a physical condition, while gluttony is a mental attitude. Obesity is defined as “a condition characterized by excessive bodily fat,” whereas gluttony is “greedy or excessive indulgence.” Thus, gluttony is not determined by someone’s size but by his attitude toward food. A person may be of normal size or may even be thin and yet be a glutton. Furthermore, what is viewed as the ideal weight or shape varies considerably from place to place"
 
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I'll send a link.. ha! Life became so chaotic that I just gave up and went with it so to speak, I was spinning too many plates and just dropped them all 😆 and since then it's been, you know, qué sera sera and now I just take one day at a time, just like Jesus advises, took me a very long time to get to that stage though, I thought I could do everything, all the time.. here it is.. you can just imagine how many jws jumped on this 21yrs ago, and will continue to do so when they're reminded of it in a couple of weeks time. Me personally, I've never met a food greedy person who's not obese, and I've never met an obese person who's life doesn't revolve around food. Still, Watchtower, you just keep promoting the UN's (Satan's) goals as opposed to healthy lifestyles. Won't suprise me if next year's Awake will be promoting all these horrific "fat" injections obese people are taking now. I know loadsa people who are taking part in yet another "experiment" 🤐

The Watchtower, November 1, 2004
Questions From Readers
"For example, obesity may be a sign of gluttony, but that is not always the case. One’s being overweight may be the result of an ailment. Hereditary factors may also contribute to obesity. We should also keep in mind that obesity is a physical condition, while gluttony is a mental attitude. Obesity is defined as “a condition characterized by excessive bodily fat,” whereas gluttony is “greedy or excessive indulgence.” Thus, gluttony is not determined by someone’s size but by his attitude toward food. A person may be of normal size or may even be thin and yet be a glutton. Furthermore, what is viewed as the ideal weight or shape varies considerably from place to place"
Thanks Sister: But how did you get here? Was it prayer? My self, I got out of Jail in Oct 2015 and next day went to the library to see what was going on at the JW site I typed in Watchtower and guess? I was into e-watchman.com.....Chortle!
 
Do you see any correlation between "making sure of all things" with the apostle Paul's epistle to the believers in Phillippia?

I can do all things in him that strengtheneth me. — Phillippians 4:13 American Standard Version

The NWT doesn't unwrap the original language sufficiently in its rendering of the apostle Paul's words, which is why I cited the ASV here.

In his letter to the believers of Thessalonica, it appears that the apostle Paul is simply saying the same thing, just writing it in a slightly different way:

Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine. — 1 Thessalonians 5:21 New World Translation

What is fine? "him that strengthens me" as our Exemplar and Teacher. Jesus seems to be saying the same thing, when he uses the teaching technique of repetition for emphasis, using the expression three times in a row.

I am the fine shepherd; the fine shepherd surrenders his soul in behalf of the sheep. The hired man, who is no shepherd and to whom the sheep do not belong as his own, beholds the wolf coming and abandons the sheep and flees—and the wolf snatches them and scatters them— because he is a hired man and does not care for the sheep. I am the fine shepherd, and I know my sheep and my sheep know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I surrender my soul in behalf of the sheep. — John 10:11-15 New World Translation

Keeping in mind that it wasn't until Peter stopped holding fast (with his eye on Jesus as he tread the waters), and became overwhelmed by the storm all about him, and started sinking in the tumultuous waters. How quickly we, too, can become overwhelmed by everything that is going on around us, unless we, too, hold fast to what IS fine: our Exemplar and Teacher and Shepherd.

Not trying to stir up a debate. Just offering for consideration.

—Timothy,
a believer.
“Do you see any correlation between "making sure of all things" with the apostle Paul's epistle to the believers in Phillippia?”

Sadly not. One can appreciate the solidity of fact, certainly, but as for understanding emotive meaning in application to one’s faith through prophesy, I’m not sure that anyone can. I thought that was why we are judged as individuals.

Certainly Christ is the fine teacher, and holding fast to what he says requires a solid understanding of what is being said. For instance, the question of love or understanding of the word is dependant , not only the ethereal qualities of faith, personal to and pro-rata with the persons “understanding” of such, but also according to their conscience. Thus it is not a question of what is written, but what is explained. Hence the need for a teacher. Christ taught according to such methodology - a prime example being “only those that drink of my blood and eat of my flesh…..” certainly parted the sheep from the wolves so to speak. And the question was answered by events some time later at Pentecost when the spirit was received.

As to your example of Peter and walking upon water, I see your point, but that surely is in regard to responding to what is already understood in terms of understanding, and putting that understanding into the practice of faith? In that regard, I would think that Peter was not able to maintain the faith required to take advantage of the Holy Spirit that would have allowed the suspension of the laws of gravity and the molecular structure of water. This is simply a reflection of the faith a child has in its parent telling them to let go of the side of a swimming bath and float. It’s therefore not a question of understanding, but the faith that makes understanding comprehensible or achievable. (Think the test of death that the anointed face, in translating what they have seen into what they will become). Thus, Realized. Felt inwardly. Experienced inwardly and therefore reliable. And as mentioned, the problem I have is simply understanding the pictorial/prophetic or emotive instruction within the Bible. The metaphorical “rock” is required.

As for “stirring up a debate”, please feel free. It’s always appreciated. I wish it was more frequent. 👍🤣
 
“Do you see any correlation between "making sure of all things" with the apostle Paul's epistle to the believers in Phillippia?”

Sadly not. One can appreciate the solidity of fact, certainly, but as for understanding emotive meaning in application to one’s faith through prophesy, I’m not sure that anyone can. I thought that was why we are judged as individuals.

Certainly Christ is the fine teacher, and holding fast to what he says requires a solid understanding of what is being said. For instance, the question of love or understanding of the word is dependant , not only the ethereal qualities of faith, personal to and pro-rata with the persons “understanding” of such, but also according to their conscience. Thus it is not a question of what is written, but what is explained. Hence the need for a teacher. Christ taught according to such methodology - a prime example being “only those that drink of my blood and eat of my flesh…..” certainly parted the sheep from the wolves so to speak. And the question was answered by events some time later at Pentecost when the spirit was received.

As to your example of Peter and walking upon water, I see your point, but that surely is in regard to responding to what is already understood in terms of understanding, and putting that understanding into the practice of faith? In that regard, I would think that Peter was not able to maintain the faith required to take advantage of the Holy Spirit that would have allowed the suspension of the laws of gravity and the molecular structure of water. This is simply a reflection of the faith a child has in its parent telling them to let go of the side of a swimming bath and float. It’s therefore not a question of understanding, but the faith that makes understanding comprehensible or achievable. (Think the test of death that the anointed face, in translating what they have seen into what they will become). Thus, Realized. Felt inwardly. Experienced inwardly and therefore reliable. And as mentioned, the problem I have is simply understanding the pictorial/prophetic or emotive instruction within the Bible. The metaphorical “rock” is required.

As for “stirring up a debate”, please feel free. It’s always appreciated. I wish it was more frequent. 👍🤣
You always handle it so well brother. You always disarmed me when reaching for my gun...chortle...Not saying Timothy has reached for his holster.
 
As for “stirring up a debate”, please feel free. It’s always appreciated. I wish it was more frequent. 👍🤣

Totally hear ya there, @Barnaby.

Still, after online debating since Usenet and H2O days (pre-2K drama), and many days, months and years after that, I guess I've just lost interest in debating. It rarely did anything for either party engaged, and was primarily for the onlookers to sort out who argued and debated better, and conclude that person was the one that was correct.

But if it helps, I *almost* responded to some of the astute points you raised. Certainly some good discussion to be found in there. :cool:

—Timothy
 
Thanks Sister: But how did you get here? Was it prayer? My self, I got out of Jail in Oct 2015 and next day went to the library to see what was going on at the JW site I typed in Watchtower and guess? I was into e-watchman.com.....Chortle!
Yes, I was praying to Jehovah like crazy in 2020, because it seemed to me like he "disappeared" overnight, and I didn't know where he was anymore. Then a watcher found me on that exjw Reddit forum and sent me here. I have no idea why I was looking on the exjw Reddit forum for Jehovah, just desperation really.. 😐
 
Yes, I was praying to Jehovah like crazy in 2020, because it seemed to me like he "disappeared" overnight, and I didn't know where he was anymore. Then a watcher found me on that exjw Reddit forum and sent me here. I have no idea why I was looking on the exjw Reddit forum for Jehovah, just desperation really.. 😐
Respect to that watcher; Is it the same watcher that just upvoted you?
 
I honestly believe that if the org hadn't made rules about beards and other grooming and dress, but just highlighted the importance of being clean, well groomed and smartly dressed they wouldn't have had half as many problems as the "rules" caused. I know this for sure because of one of the jobs I do. In businesses where the staff need to be clean, well groomed and smartly dressed, most of the time they ARE clean, well groomed and smartly dressed, very rarely do I have to tick the "no" box and make an explanation. If people who don't claim to represent God can do it for money, how much more so should JWs be able to do it? Simples 😁
If the governing body over at the Watchtower would stop focusing on their outward appearance which consists of man-made ritualistic rules /conformity like the Pharisees of yesterday perhaps things would have turned out a lot better.

AI Overview

Cleaning the inside of the Cup” – Pastor's Ponderings

In the Bible, the phrase "clean the inside of the cup" is a metaphor used by Jesus to criticize the Pharisees for their hypocrisy. It means focusing on outward appearances of righteousness while neglecting inner purity and spiritual growth.

Explanation:
  • Matthew 23:25-26 and Luke 11:39-41: describe Jesus rebuking the Pharisees for cleaning the outside of their cups and dishes while ignoring the greed and wickedness within.

  • The "cup" symbolizes a person's heart or inner being, while the "outside" represents outward actions and appearances.

  • Jesus emphasizes that true righteousness comes from within: a clean heart and a genuine relationship with God are more important than mere outward conformity to religious rules.

  • The Pharisees were focused on external rituals and traditions, neglecting the importance of inner transformation and a sincere faith.

  • The message is relevant today: We should strive for genuine spiritual growth and integrity, rather than focusing solely on how we appear to others.
In essence, the phrase "clean the inside of the cup" is a call to self-reflection and genuine spiritual transformation, rather than merely focusing on outward appearances.
 
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