Has Israel been cast out? A response

RR144

Well-known member
It’s true Paul argued that natural Jews could indeed return to Jehovah's favor and become heirs with Jesus as part of his Kingdom.
Was 70 CE a cutoff date after which they wouldn’t be able to? The Bible doesn’t say.

Jesus did say that only those who acknowledge him as the Messiah would be grafted back into the true vine.
The fiercely nationalistic people who reside within the borders of what is now Israel have no place or part in future Bible prophecy, which is widely believed among modern evangelical movements, because Jehovah and Jesus only have dealings with the Israel of God or spiritual Israel.

I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? Never may that happen!” - Romans 11:1 (New World Translation)

Let us see how Paul continues to answer this questions in Romans 11.

Rom 11:7, 8 shows that the nation of Israel did not obtain what it sought. Paul goes on in verses 9 and 10 showing that their eyes were darkened so they would not see the truth.

Paul continues his thought in verse 11 showing that Israel did not stumble so as to fall. The purpose of their stumbling is so the Gentiles would also have an opportunity to be anointed and be part of the 144,000, but even so, verse 1 says that “God has not rejected His people” Israel.

Not only did they not utterly fall, but there was a purpose to the fall. Their disobedience was for a purpose, which is to bless all. This is where it gets really exciting! Verse 15 begins a section which shows the true purpose of Israel being blinded and allowed to fall for a time is the “reconciling of the whole world.”

In verse 12, Paul shows that their rejection results in the “reconciliation of the world” and their future acceptance (“fullness”) will mark the time of “life from the dead.”

All Israel will be saved (verse 26), both fleshly and spiritual.

Verses 25-29 is so beautiful. It shows that Israel was “blinded UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles comes in,” that is until the 144,000 are complete. And then the blindness and their sins will be removed (verse 27). Verse 28 shows that they are enemies for the sake of the Anointed, but beloved for the sake of the fathers – God still keeps them in His plan and will help them.

Romans 11:28 says, ”From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers.”

How can Romans 11:28 be speaking of anything other than the nation of Israel, when it specifically says:
  1. They are enemies for the Gospel’s sake
  2. They are beloved for the father’s sake
Are Christians (Jehovah’s Witnesses) enemies for the Gospels sake? I should hope not. So this group of enemies is natural Israel who are “beloved for the fathers’ sake.”

Moses told natural Israel that Jehovah loved them in Deut 7:6-8, “For you are a holy people to the Lord your God; the Lord your God has chosen you to be a people for Himself, a special treasure above all the peoples on the face of the earth. The Lord did not set His love on you nor choose you because you were more in number than any other people, for you were the least of all peoples; but because the Lord loves you, and because He would keep the oath which He swore to your fathers, the Lord has brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you from the house of bondage, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt."

Rom 11:29 tells us that, “the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable.” What are the gifts and calling of God to the natural nation of Israel that are irrevocable?
  • God will bless all the nations of the world through them (Gen 12:3)
  • They will own the land of Israel forever (Gen 13:15)
  • They will eventually be planted in their land and never again plucked up out of it (Amos 9:15)
In Luke 21:24 (NASV) Jesus said, “they (the Jews) will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.” Notice that the time of Jerusalem’s trampling ended in 1914 with the end of the Gentile times. WWI which began in 1914 produced the Balfour Declaration through which the British Empire set aside land in Palestine for a Jewish nation, which became a reality in 1948. So the early Watchtower (C.T. Russell) was then correct in connecting the reestablishment of the nation of Israel with the end of the Gentile Times.

Jeremiah 31:35-37 NIV “This is what the Lord says, he who appoints the sun to shine by day, who decrees the moon and stars to shine by night, who stirs up the sea so that the waves roar — the Lord Almighty is his name: “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,” declares the Lord, “will the descendants of Israel ever cease to be a nation before me.” This is what the Lord says: “Only if the heavens above can be measured and the foundations of the earth below be searched out will I reject all the descendants of Israel because of all they have done,” declares the Lord”
 

RR144

Well-known member
I believe that when Jesus told the nation of Israel at Matthew 23:48 that from henceforth they’d be abandoned by God, He was pretty serious about it.
Actually, that would be Matthew 23:38, there is no 48 verse. Matthew 23: ends at 39. In any event, you failed to read the verse in context. Yes, Jesus did say "Your house is left to you desolate", but notice what he says next in verse 39, "for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, ‘Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!’”


Besides, all genealogical records of the Israelites went up in smoke during the Roman siege of Jerusalem in 70 CE and any authentic descendants of those first century Jews wouldn’t have a clue as to which tribe they belonged to or even if they were of Semitic origin.
While this is true, don't you think Jehovah Himself knows? Especially when the ancient ones of Hebrews 11 are resurrected to represent the Kingdom of Heaven on earth.
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
You apparently don’t grasp the concept of a spiritual Israel and who comprise it.
As a nation in covenant relationship with Jehovah, their approved status was conditional on not breaking that Mosaic covenant which they did repeatedly which is why the privilege of being a holy priesthood nation was taken from them and given to a nation producing righteous fruits.
What I find disturbing is that you subscribe to WT lore about 1914 being the time Jerusalem ceased to be trampled upon.
Robert has clearly shown, scripturally,
that the trampling occurs during the beast’s 42 month reign following the great tribulation.
You’re adept at researching and posting pro Israel propaganda so I respectfully suggest you do a little research into Brother King’s
treatise on the subject of the gentile times.
 
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BagdadBill

Well-known member
Israel's provision for salvation is the same as our's. Jesus Christ is the only name by which anyone can be saved. If Israel chooses to adhere to the old, will they continue to offer animal sacrifices which have only a temporary value? What would be the point of that? Being only temporary it would be an obvious offense to the superior sacrifice of Jesus and also not in God's plan.
If a Jew wants salvation they can accept the messiah Jesus just like the rest of us. This was the promise to Abraham. Am I not understanding the purpose of this topic? Even now, I hear comments from self claimed Christians who seem to have this fixation with physical Israel who no longer has any claim to God because of their rejection of the cornerstone Jesus. If I missed something, let me know.
 

kenmuldoon55

Well-known member
Israel's provision for salvation is the same as our's. Jesus Christ is the only name by which anyone can be saved. If Israel chooses to adhere to the old, will they continue to offer animal sacrifices which have only a temporary value? What would be the point of that? Being only temporary it would be an obvious offense to the superior sacrifice of Jesus and also not in God's plan.
If a Jew wants salvation they can accept the messiah Jesus just like the rest of us. This was the promise to Abraham. Am I not understanding the purpose of this topic? Even now, I hear comments from self claimed Christians who seem to have this fixation with physical Israel who no longer has any claim to God because of their rejection of the cornerstone Jesus. If I missed something, let me know.
Believe me you didn’t.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
Israel's provision for salvation is the same as our's. Jesus Christ is the only name by which anyone can be saved. If Israel chooses to adhere to the old, will they continue to offer animal sacrifices which have only a temporary value? What would be the point of that? Being only temporary it would be an obvious offense to the superior sacrifice of Jesus and also not in God's plan.
If a Jew wants salvation they can accept the messiah Jesus just like the rest of us. This was the promise to Abraham. Am I not understanding the purpose of this topic? Even now, I hear comments from self claimed Christians who seem to have this fixation with physical Israel who no longer has any claim to God because of their rejection of the cornerstone Jesus. If I missed something, let me know.
What people need to understand is after Rome crushed the temple, the old covenant was permanently terminated. The fact the the Israelites hunted down Christians showed where they stood with God & it was no different how their ancestors were in Isaiah & Jerimiah's time. If we look today, where is the Ark of the Covenant? Which tribe does each Jew belong to (ironically Jew is short for Judean which is part of the tribe of Benjamin)? Are they black, middle eastern, or white? Why aren't they doing sacrifices? If you consider these things you realize Jehovah hasn't blessed these people & IMHO there are no true Israelites since they were wiped out just like the Philistines. This is harsh to say but what we see today is really a ploy by the devil to mislead the inhabited earth & the Beast/KotN may use it to lead many into apostacy just how it has cause many in Christendom & Islam to have a fixation on the physical nation. What we see today is just a huge piece of Babylon the Great.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
I found some interesting links that should be considered.


 

kirmmy

Well-known member
I did some looking around & Judah is a separate tribe. However, the kingdom of Judah has the tribe of Benjamin in it. My mistake!
I meant that the term Jew comes from the tribe of Judah. (Judah was an actual tribe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_Tribes_of_Israel) I'm not certain myself. I only say that because Jew sounds like the first part of Judah and I assumed... You know what they say about assuming... :)
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
Found this channel a year ago timothy schwab can be arrogant and obviously some of his beliefs are off as he's a flat earther among other things but his theories on the migrations/locations of the lost tribes are interesting



 

Outcast

New member
Whilst I don't agree with everything RR144 has written (specifically: 1914) I do believe his thoughts about the physical nation of Israel's place in Jehovah's eternal plan are correct. An honest reading of Romans 9-11 bears out this truth.

If the terms "Israel" and "Jew(s)" are only referring to "spiritual Israel" then much of the text within Romans 9-11 becomes nonsense - to say nothing of the rest of the NT.

This truth is confirmed by Paul's words in Rom 9:3: "my relatives according to the flesh".

Paul uses the same term in Rom 1:3: "concerning his Son, who came to be from the offspring of David according to the flesh"

There can be no argument that Paul was pointing out that Jesus was a physical, fleshly descendant of David. These verses are plainly talking about physical, fleshly relationships; thus, Paul is very clear about whom he is speaking of in Romans 9-11: the physical nation of the Jews.

Suffice it to say, the Jews whom Jehovah will open the eyes of will not be accepted through the Old Covenant. No, they will only be accepted by placing faith in Jesus, repenting of their former lives, and being baptised in His name.

The problem until now has been that very few Jews have accepted Jesus as their Messiah because: "A partial dulling of senses ("blindness" KJV) has come upon Israel" (Rom 11:25).

Jehovah sends people who refuse to acknowledge & love the truth a delusion to "believe the lie". Romans 1:20-28 and 2 Thes 2:10-12 are examples of this. Because the Jews refuse to believe & love the truth that is Jesus, a "blindness" has come over them so that they believe the lie that Jesus is NOT their Messiah.

But Rom 11:25 continues: "until the full number of people of the nations has come in". Thus we see that by Jehovah's grace and because of His love for the patriarchs (Rom 11:28), their blindness shall be removed at some point - and they will see & understand that Jesus IS their promised Messiah. Among those, a "remnant" (Rom 11:5) will obey God's command to faithfully accept Jesus as their promised Messiah, repent, and be baptised in His name.
 
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BagdadBill

Well-known member
Whilst I don't agree with everything RR144 has written (specifically: 1914) I do believe his thoughts about the physical nation of Israel's place in Jehovah's eternal plan are correct. An honest reading of Romans 9-11 bears out this truth.

If the terms "Israel" and "Jew(s)" are only referring to "spiritual Israel" then much of the text within Romans 9-11 becomes nonsense - to say nothing of the rest of the NT.


Jehovah sends people who refuse to acknowledge & love the truth a delusion to "believe the lie". Romans 1:20-28 and 2 Thes 2:10-12 are examples of this. Because the Jews refuse to believe & love the truth that is Jesus, a "blindness" has come over them so that they believe the lie that Jesus is NOT their Messiah.

But Rom 11:25 continues: "until the full number of people of the nations has come in". Thus we see that by Jehovah's grace and because of His love for the patriarchs (Rom 11:28), their blindness shall be removed at some point - and they will see & understand that Jesus IS their promised Messiah. Among those, a "remnant" (Rom 11:5) will obey God's command to faithfully accept Jesus as their promised Messiah, repent, and be baptised in His name.
God through Jesus, appointed Paul as the apostle to the nations or gentiles. That's us. Regular people of varying colors and nationalities. Jesus made it clear that because of their rejection of God's promise to Abraham, that it was the last straw as regards the nation of Israel having any special privilege or position. Even his promise to Abraham explains that his intention was to include the nations of the world.
This clinging to Israel is fine, as long as you are holding onto the right Jewish skirt. For almost 2000 years now, the true nation of Israel has been destroyed. What you see physically in the land of Canaan is not the Israel of God rather a secular, demon inspired nation.
Israel forcibly injected their entire country with this magical injection that Satan has given the world. That alone clinches it.
I have seen this topic beaten to death in various forums and in videos. Fleshly Israel is gone. If anyone belabors the point then why believe any of the scripture at all?
 
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