Has Israel been cast out? A response
- Thread starter RR144
- Start date
MickHewitt
Well-known member
Those wonderful scriptures once absorbed stay with us, blessed we are Summit.Maybe next time Mick, or am I being rhetorical
?
MickHewitt
Well-known member
When our Prince arrives and annoints princes to rule for justice, each one providing a hiding place from the wind Isa321,2. When these three and half years find conclusion that will see the demise of the destroyer Isa33:1. When Jehovah pours out His Spirit Isa32:15, that's when fulfillment of Christ's words come to the fore..' John 14:12 "Most truly I say to you who ever exercises faith in me will also do the works tha I do and he will do works greater than these". Those works included healing the sick, feeding the hungry. These things will occur in what is termed the wilderness Isa 32:15,16 "Justice will reside in the wilderness and righteousness will dwell in the orchard" Where have we heard these words before? In Revelation 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wildrness where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days" Surely everything to hold on and pray for!
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MickHewitt
Well-known member
My old friend of over 50yr who we have fought over scripture to no avail even parting company for over a decade because of resentment to each other's beliefs. I am Jehovah's witness and he is a Trinitarian: Wonderful last night where we agreed on scriptures that said will come a time when everyone will know I am Jehovah or in his bible the Lord! Also the reference to when Christ comes again He will set matters straight! Peace between us at last.
Carl
Well-known member
Obviously we know we're right about the trinity... but trinitarians feel the same confidence in their belief. So my son and I have agreed to wait on Jehovah. Unlike most Catholics, he knows Jehovah's name which is a good thing. I told him that if I'm wrong, I have no problem admitting it, and he said the same. It's not about how much we know, or how right we are about things... it's about faith, humility and meekness. I've always had an overabundance of faith thankfully, but I lacked humility and meekness for most of my life. I keep telling Jehovah I don't trust my own conclusions or thoughts, so if he wants me to do or know something... I need to know it's from him and not my own intrusive thoughts.
MickHewitt
Well-known member
I'm glad to be learning truths about mysel too Carl: It's good we have been given the time, and that were not scared of the truth about ourselves and willing to learn.....I enjoy your honesty brother.
Seadog
Well-known member
I really like this conclusion Carl. I think of the decades I’ve been in the “truth” where I would argue and debate for hours with infidels and be totally convinced of my/our position yet now I hang my head. I wonder how I was so easily led by the .org and I always thought of myself as a big picture man and rational thinker. Vanity eh?! Good thing the clot shot/stroke poke woke me up. 😳🤓
Carl
Well-known member
I think Jehovah’s in the process of waking people up and refining them/us right now. Everyone is proceeding at their own pace… but I think there’s going to be a jump in the awakening process just before Jesus returns.
kirmmy
Well-known member
Seems that way to me too. It seems with all the horrors in the world it's lighting a "God seeking" flame. The flame is burning really, really dirty right now but as time goes on, it will become cleaner. We may see Jehovah's name used more and more as people wake up. That would be a really clear indicator to me. Jehovah's name is the most important name in the universe. As Ezekiel says in many places; The nations shall know that my name is Jehovah.
Carl
Well-known member
I was able to witness today with a woman in town. I didn't get into the Truth, but I made sure she knew God's name. I do it in a way that doesn't come off as me trying to convert them... she's a non-practicing Catholic. I just plant the seed so that when the time comes they'll know His name.
KingdomLeast
Well-known member
Is knowing the name key to salvation or is knowing the person behind the name the key?
Introductions are important. By the way, what's your name?
Carl
Well-known member
When you don't have the chance to get into an in depth Bible study, I feel it's important to educate people on God's name. Helping others to the Truth is a tag team effort. Now this woman knows God's name, so the next person who witnesses to her can go a little further if she's interested.
KingdomLeast
Well-known member
Simply telling people "Hey, you know God's name is Jehovah?" Doesn't quite cut it. Paul's an example:Introductions are important. By the way, what's your name?
“Men of Athens, I perceive that in all things you are very religious; 23 for as I was passing through and considering the objects of your worship, I even found an altar with this inscription:
TO THE UNKNOWN GOD.
Therefore, the One whom you worship without knowing, Him I proclaim to you: 24 God, who made the world and everything in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth."
So yes, I introductions are important, but it needs to be followed up by introducing the one behind the name.
BTW ... my name is Jim
Hi Jim. An introduction is just that...an introduction. My name is...and then it goes on from there.
Summit
Well-known member
Yes thats a good feeling when you can share his name regardless of the outcome. Hopefully the demons shudder everytime somebody uses it. It's great when the person responds in a positive manner but typically when most people hear that name they immediately build a wall of doubt because they associate it to the WT, rather than God himself. I bet when you told that woman Jehovah's name she instantly thought of the group called Jehovahs Witnesses, instead of actually focusing on his name. I suppose when you think about it, this is merely another reason why the WT is Gods organization, because even the people of the world look at the group of people known as the witnesses and associate it with the word Jehovah, even though they don't really understand the value that name has. There is no other group in the world that can say that when you hear Gods name, you associate it with that group, except for one JW's. Of course this isn't proof, but it certainly lends strong support to it for those who question the WT's importance within Gods arrangement.
Hello all,
Thanks for the replies.
Just to clear some things up:
1. I am not RR144
2. I know I rarely comment here, so I readily agree it must seem as though I’m only here to further an agenda. I’m not. As Jehovah is my witness: I love him, I try to obey him as best as I can, and I worship Him in spirit & truth. I’ve been reading RKs written material since the early-mid 2000s, so I’m intimately familiar with his views/teachings. Despite not being a regular here on the e-jw forum, I’ve posted comments here on this Thread because I grew up as a JW, assumed the Watchtower’s teaching about the Jews in the modern-era was correct, and believed - as you all do - that Jehovah had permanently rejected the Jewish nation. But, just as my eyes were opened to 1914 being wrong, so my eyes were opened to Jehovah’s plan for His “first people”
3. I actually don’t know what (British) Zionism is! My views are based solely on the scriptures, nothing else
4. I totally recognise that “not all Israel is Israel”; even prior to Jesus’ arrival only faithful Israelites were really considered the “Israel of God”; nevertheless, even unfaithful Israel was part of “God’s People” and that’s why they were punished for disobeying the Covenant. This is comparable to Jesus’ teaching:
““Again the kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering up [fish] of every kind. When it got full they hauled it up onto the beach and, sitting down, they collected the fine ones into vessels, but the unsuitable they threw away.” Matt 13:47-48
...all of the fish were in “the Kingdom” - but the unsuitable were/will be eventually discarded... ...and this is the same for Israel; all were in “the Kingdom”, but not all were suitable...
5. Just about all the objections written here are answered very clearly in Romans chapters 9-11 - and to comment without having an understanding of what the scriptures say in those chapters is to try to walk without legs. I cannot stress highly enough how important it is to read those chapters - free from the WT lens - and just let the Bible be the guide - the lamp
Since there are a number of replies, I’ll copy & paste the comments and then reply in individual posts...
Thanks for the replies.
Just to clear some things up:
1. I am not RR144
2. I know I rarely comment here, so I readily agree it must seem as though I’m only here to further an agenda. I’m not. As Jehovah is my witness: I love him, I try to obey him as best as I can, and I worship Him in spirit & truth. I’ve been reading RKs written material since the early-mid 2000s, so I’m intimately familiar with his views/teachings. Despite not being a regular here on the e-jw forum, I’ve posted comments here on this Thread because I grew up as a JW, assumed the Watchtower’s teaching about the Jews in the modern-era was correct, and believed - as you all do - that Jehovah had permanently rejected the Jewish nation. But, just as my eyes were opened to 1914 being wrong, so my eyes were opened to Jehovah’s plan for His “first people”
3. I actually don’t know what (British) Zionism is! My views are based solely on the scriptures, nothing else
4. I totally recognise that “not all Israel is Israel”; even prior to Jesus’ arrival only faithful Israelites were really considered the “Israel of God”; nevertheless, even unfaithful Israel was part of “God’s People” and that’s why they were punished for disobeying the Covenant. This is comparable to Jesus’ teaching:
““Again the kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering up [fish] of every kind. When it got full they hauled it up onto the beach and, sitting down, they collected the fine ones into vessels, but the unsuitable they threw away.” Matt 13:47-48
...all of the fish were in “the Kingdom” - but the unsuitable were/will be eventually discarded... ...and this is the same for Israel; all were in “the Kingdom”, but not all were suitable...
5. Just about all the objections written here are answered very clearly in Romans chapters 9-11 - and to comment without having an understanding of what the scriptures say in those chapters is to try to walk without legs. I cannot stress highly enough how important it is to read those chapters - free from the WT lens - and just let the Bible be the guide - the lamp
Since there are a number of replies, I’ll copy & paste the comments and then reply in individual posts...
Robert King wrote:
“It is the spiritual Israel that derived from the physical.”
Agreed. The Bible explains that Spiritual Israel is actually grafted onto the Rootstock of Natural Israel:
“Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also. However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that you do not bear the root, but the root bears you.” Romans 11:16-18
“It is the spiritual Israel that derived from the physical.”
Agreed. The Bible explains that Spiritual Israel is actually grafted onto the Rootstock of Natural Israel:
“Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also. However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that you do not bear the root, but the root bears you.” Romans 11:16-18
Carl wrote:
“Christian Zionists believe modern believing Jews are still under the old covenant, and thus don't need Jesus as their savior. I believe this is a satanic lie meant to trap them in a fulfilled covenant, and trick them into following the 8th king. EVERYONE needs Jesus!”
I agree with this 100%
“Christian Zionists believe modern believing Jews are still under the old covenant, and thus don't need Jesus as their savior. I believe this is a satanic lie meant to trap them in a fulfilled covenant, and trick them into following the 8th king. EVERYONE needs Jesus!”
I agree with this 100%
Kirmmy wrote:
“the Jews are still God's chosen people. They're not, BTW. They had their chance and they blew it. Jehovah has wholly rejected them as murderers of his son and people that said "We have no king but Ceasar" (John 19:15). Their existence means nothing today. They've been replaced. That doesn't mean that Jews couldn't accept Christ and come into his arrangement as individuals. That's where Paul's words at Romans 11:1-2 come in. I'm not sure why you're putting forth his nonsense. Modern day Jews are dead to Jehovah and he has nothing to do with them, except as individuals. As individuals they have the same opportunities as everyone else.
Here's the scripture you quoted, in context, from the 2001 translation:
Brothers, I don’t want you to ignore this mystery, so you don’t become too wise in your own eyes:IsraEl was allowed to become calloused until the full number of gentiles came in.26Yet, this is how all IsraEl is going to be saved!For it’s written:‘A Savior will come out of Zion, And remove from Jacob, his godless ways. 27Yes, this is My promise to them, After I’ve removed all their sins.’ [Isaiah 59:20-21, LXX]
So how is Israel going to be saved? By accepting God's son, Jesus Christ. Has modern Isreal done this as a nation? You know the answer.”
I can fully understand why you’d write all of this; I used to think the same way.
I want to break this down:
1. “[The Jews are] not [God’s chosen people], BTW. They had their chance and they blew it. Jehovah has wholly rejected them”
They certainly were rejected & punished for their treatment & rejection of their Messiah. But the question is this: Was that rejection permanent?
The Bible very clearly shows it was not:
“I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.” Romans 11:1-2
“So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not!” Romans 11:11
“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:29 ESV
“This is what Jehovah has said: “‘If the heavens up above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below could be searched out, I myself also could reject the entire seed of Israel on account of all that they have done,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” Jeremiah 31:37
“But despite all of this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will never completely reject them nor cast them away to the point of exterminating them, which would violate my covenant with them, for I am Jehovah their God.” Lev 26:44
2. ‘That doesn't mean that Jews couldn't accept Christ and come into his arrangement as individuals.”
Agreed. And some have, hallelujah
3. “As individuals they have the same opportunities as everyone else.”
Agreed - they have the same opportunity, but as I’ve commented in previous posts, they don’t have the same capacity as the Gentiles because:
“For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in” Romans 11:25
4. “Here's the scripture you quoted, in context, from the 2001 translation:
Brothers, I don’t want you to ignore this mystery, so you don’t become too wise in your own eyes:IsraEl was allowed to become calloused until the full number of gentiles came in.26Yet, this is how all IsraEl is going to be saved!For it’s written:‘A Savior will come out of Zion, And remove from Jacob, his godless ways. 27Yes, this is My promise to them, After I’ve removed all their sins.’ [Isaiah 59:20-21, LXX]
So how is Israel going to be saved? By accepting God's son, Jesus Christ. Has modern Isreal done this as a nation? You know the answer.”
Yes, they will only be accepted by Jehovah if/when they accept Jesus Christ. Jesus said as much:
“Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” Matt 23:38-39
Also:
“Afterwards the sons of Israel will come back and certainly look for Jehovah their God, and for David their king; and they will certainly come quivering to Jehovah and to his goodness in the final part of the days.” Hosea 3:5
No, modern Israel hasn’t accepted Jesus as Christ, as a general rule; but here is an important question:
According to the Bible, when will they (or, more precisely, the elect remnant of them - see Rom 11:5) have their eyes opened?
“[When] the full number of people of the nations has come in” vs 25
Since that hasn’t happened yet, neither has the opening of their eyes happened yet.
“the Jews are still God's chosen people. They're not, BTW. They had their chance and they blew it. Jehovah has wholly rejected them as murderers of his son and people that said "We have no king but Ceasar" (John 19:15). Their existence means nothing today. They've been replaced. That doesn't mean that Jews couldn't accept Christ and come into his arrangement as individuals. That's where Paul's words at Romans 11:1-2 come in. I'm not sure why you're putting forth his nonsense. Modern day Jews are dead to Jehovah and he has nothing to do with them, except as individuals. As individuals they have the same opportunities as everyone else.
Here's the scripture you quoted, in context, from the 2001 translation:
Brothers, I don’t want you to ignore this mystery, so you don’t become too wise in your own eyes:IsraEl was allowed to become calloused until the full number of gentiles came in.26Yet, this is how all IsraEl is going to be saved!For it’s written:‘A Savior will come out of Zion, And remove from Jacob, his godless ways. 27Yes, this is My promise to them, After I’ve removed all their sins.’ [Isaiah 59:20-21, LXX]
So how is Israel going to be saved? By accepting God's son, Jesus Christ. Has modern Isreal done this as a nation? You know the answer.”
I can fully understand why you’d write all of this; I used to think the same way.
I want to break this down:
1. “[The Jews are] not [God’s chosen people], BTW. They had their chance and they blew it. Jehovah has wholly rejected them”
They certainly were rejected & punished for their treatment & rejection of their Messiah. But the question is this: Was that rejection permanent?
The Bible very clearly shows it was not:
“I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.” Romans 11:1-2
“So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not!” Romans 11:11
“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:29 ESV
“This is what Jehovah has said: “‘If the heavens up above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below could be searched out, I myself also could reject the entire seed of Israel on account of all that they have done,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” Jeremiah 31:37
“But despite all of this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will never completely reject them nor cast them away to the point of exterminating them, which would violate my covenant with them, for I am Jehovah their God.” Lev 26:44
2. ‘That doesn't mean that Jews couldn't accept Christ and come into his arrangement as individuals.”
Agreed. And some have, hallelujah
3. “As individuals they have the same opportunities as everyone else.”
Agreed - they have the same opportunity, but as I’ve commented in previous posts, they don’t have the same capacity as the Gentiles because:
“For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in” Romans 11:25
4. “Here's the scripture you quoted, in context, from the 2001 translation:
Brothers, I don’t want you to ignore this mystery, so you don’t become too wise in your own eyes:IsraEl was allowed to become calloused until the full number of gentiles came in.26Yet, this is how all IsraEl is going to be saved!For it’s written:‘A Savior will come out of Zion, And remove from Jacob, his godless ways. 27Yes, this is My promise to them, After I’ve removed all their sins.’ [Isaiah 59:20-21, LXX]
So how is Israel going to be saved? By accepting God's son, Jesus Christ. Has modern Isreal done this as a nation? You know the answer.”
Yes, they will only be accepted by Jehovah if/when they accept Jesus Christ. Jesus said as much:
“Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” Matt 23:38-39
Also:
“Afterwards the sons of Israel will come back and certainly look for Jehovah their God, and for David their king; and they will certainly come quivering to Jehovah and to his goodness in the final part of the days.” Hosea 3:5
No, modern Israel hasn’t accepted Jesus as Christ, as a general rule; but here is an important question:
According to the Bible, when will they (or, more precisely, the elect remnant of them - see Rom 11:5) have their eyes opened?
“[When] the full number of people of the nations has come in” vs 25
Since that hasn’t happened yet, neither has the opening of their eyes happened yet.