Has Israel been cast out? A response

[Summit]

When you don't have the chance to get into an in depth Bible study, I feel it's important to educate people on God's name. Helping others to the Truth is a tag team effort. Now this woman knows God's name, so the next person who witnesses to her can go a little further if she's interested.

Yes thats a good feeling when you can share his name regardless of the outcome. Hopefully the demons shudder everytime somebody uses it. It's great when the person responds in a positive manner but typically when most people hear that name they immediately build a wall of doubt because they associate it to the WT, rather than God himself. I bet when you told that woman Jehovah's name she instantly thought of the group called Jehovahs Witnesses, instead of actually focusing on his name. I suppose when you think about it, this is merely another reason why the WT is Gods organization, because even the people of the world look at the group of people known as the witnesses and associate it with the word Jehovah, even though they don't really understand the value that name has. There is no other group in the world that can say that when you hear Gods name, you associate it with that group, except for one JW's. Of course this isn't proof, but it certainly lends strong support to it for those who question the WT's importance within Gods arrangement.

 

[Outcast]

Hello all,

Thanks for the replies.

Just to clear some things up:

1. I am not RR144

2. I know I rarely comment here, so I readily agree it must seem as though I’m only here to further an agenda. I’m not. As Jehovah is my witness: I love him, I try to obey him as best as I can, and I worship Him in spirit & truth. I’ve been reading RKs written material since the early-mid 2000s, so I’m intimately familiar with his views/teachings. Despite not being a regular here on the e-jw forum, I’ve posted comments here on this Thread because I grew up as a JW, assumed the Watchtower’s teaching about the Jews in the modern-era was correct, and believed - as you all do - that Jehovah had permanently rejected the Jewish nation. But, just as my eyes were opened to 1914 being wrong, so my eyes were opened to Jehovah’s plan for His “first people”

3. I actually don’t know what (British) Zionism is! My views are based solely on the scriptures, nothing else

4. I totally recognise that “not all Israel is Israel”; even prior to Jesus’ arrival only faithful Israelites were really considered the “Israel of God”; nevertheless, even unfaithful Israel was part of “God’s People” and that’s why they were punished for disobeying the Covenant. This is comparable to Jesus’ teaching:

““Again the kingdom of the heavens is like a dragnet let down into the sea and gathering up [fish] of every kind. When it got full they hauled it up onto the beach and, sitting down, they collected the fine ones into vessels, but the unsuitable they threw away.” Matt 13:47-48

...all of the fish were in “the Kingdom” - but the unsuitable were/will be eventually discarded... ...and this is the same for Israel; all were in “the Kingdom”, but not all were suitable...

5. Just about all the objections written here are answered very clearly in Romans chapters 9-11 - and to comment without having an understanding of what the scriptures say in those chapters is to try to walk without legs. I cannot stress highly enough how important it is to read those chapters - free from the WT lens - and just let the Bible be the guide - the lamp


Since there are a number of replies, I’ll copy & paste the comments and then reply in individual posts...

 

[Outcast]

Robert King wrote:

“It is the spiritual Israel that derived from the physical.”

Agreed. The Bible explains that Spiritual Israel is actually grafted onto the Rootstock of Natural Israel:

“Further, if the part of the dough taken as firstfruits is holy, the entire batch is also holy; and if the root is holy, the branches are also. However, if some of the branches were broken off and you, although being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became a sharer of the richness of the olive’s root, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If, though, you are arrogant toward them, remember that you do not bear the root, but the root bears you.” Romans 11:16-18

 

[Outcast]

Carl wrote:

“Christian Zionists believe modern believing Jews are still under the old covenant, and thus don't need Jesus as their savior. I believe this is a satanic lie meant to trap them in a fulfilled covenant, and trick them into following the 8th king. EVERYONE needs Jesus!”

I agree with this 100%

 

[Outcast]

Kirmmy wrote:

“the Jews are still God's chosen people. They're not, BTW. They had their chance and they blew it. Jehovah has wholly rejected them as murderers of his son and people that said "We have no king but Ceasar" (John 19:15). Their existence means nothing today. They've been replaced. That doesn't mean that Jews couldn't accept Christ and come into his arrangement as individuals. That's where Paul's words at Romans 11:1-2 come in. I'm not sure why you're putting forth his nonsense. Modern day Jews are dead to Jehovah and he has nothing to do with them, except as individuals. As individuals they have the same opportunities as everyone else.

Here's the scripture you quoted, in context, from the 2001 translation:

Brothers, I don’t want you to ignore this mystery, so you don’t become too wise in your own eyes:IsraEl was allowed to become calloused until the full number of gentiles came in.26Yet, this is how all IsraEl is going to be saved!For it’s written:‘A Savior will come out of Zion, And remove from Jacob, his godless ways. 27Yes, this is My promise to them, After I’ve removed all their sins.’ [Isaiah 59:20-21, LXX]

So how is Israel going to be saved? By accepting God's son, Jesus Christ. Has modern Isreal done this as a nation? You know the answer.”


I can fully understand why you’d write all of this; I used to think the same way.

I want to break this down:


1. “[The Jews are] not [God’s chosen people], BTW. They had their chance and they blew it. Jehovah has wholly rejected them”

They certainly were rejected & punished for their treatment & rejection of their Messiah. But the question is this: Was that rejection permanent?

The Bible very clearly shows it was not:

“I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.” Romans 11:1-2

“So I ask, They did not stumble and fall completely, did they? Certainly not!” Romans 11:11

“For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.” Romans 11:29 ESV

“This is what Jehovah has said: “‘If the heavens up above could be measured and the foundations of the earth below could be searched out, I myself also could reject the entire seed of Israel on account of all that they have done,’ is the utterance of Jehovah.” Jeremiah 31:37

“But despite all of this, while they are in the land of their enemies, I will never completely reject them nor cast them away to the point of exterminating them, which would violate my covenant with them, for I am Jehovah their God.” Lev 26:44


2. ‘That doesn't mean that Jews couldn't accept Christ and come into his arrangement as individuals.”

Agreed. And some have, hallelujah


3. “As individuals they have the same opportunities as everyone else.”

Agreed - they have the same opportunity, but as I’ve commented in previous posts, they don’t have the same capacity as the Gentiles because:

“For I do not want you to be unaware of this sacred secret, brothers, so that you do not become wise in your own eyes: A partial dulling of senses has come upon Israel until the full number of people of the nations has come in” Romans 11:25


4. “Here's the scripture you quoted, in context, from the 2001 translation:

Brothers, I don’t want you to ignore this mystery, so you don’t become too wise in your own eyes:IsraEl was allowed to become calloused until the full number of gentiles came in.26Yet, this is how all IsraEl is going to be saved!For it’s written:‘A Savior will come out of Zion, And remove from Jacob, his godless ways. 27Yes, this is My promise to them, After I’ve removed all their sins.’ [Isaiah 59:20-21, LXX]

So how is Israel going to be saved? By accepting God's son, Jesus Christ. Has modern Isreal done this as a nation? You know the answer.”

Yes, they will only be accepted by Jehovah if/when they accept Jesus Christ. Jesus said as much:

“Look! YOUR house is abandoned to YOU. For I say to YOU, YOU will by no means see me from henceforth until YOU say, ‘Blessed is he that comes in Jehovah’s name!’” Matt 23:38-39

Also:

“Afterwards the sons of Israel will come back and certainly look for Jehovah their God, and for David their king; and they will certainly come quivering to Jehovah and to his goodness in the final part of the days.” Hosea 3:5


No, modern Israel hasn’t accepted Jesus as Christ, as a general rule; but here is an important question:

According to the Bible, when will they (or, more precisely, the elect remnant of them - see Rom 11:5) have their eyes opened?

“[When] the full number of people of the nations has come in” vs 25

Since that hasn’t happened yet, neither has the opening of their eyes happened yet.

 

[Outcast]

Nomex wrote:

“That's why when the Jews were given the Mosaic covenant, they were told they would be blessed as long as they obeyed God, and that they would be cursed if they did not. They did not, end of story and the end of the discussion.”

I’m sorry, but that is not the “end of [the] story and the end of the discussion”; if it were, why did Jehovah bother including Romans chapters 9-11 in the NEW Testatment?

Certainly, there were blessings & curses for obedience & disobedience, but Jehovah always reminded Israel that if they turned back from disobedience to obedience He would accept them. Isn’t that what the parable of the Prodigal Son is all about? And we know that obedience to Jehovah now means “Listen to [Jesus]” (Matt 17:5), since the Old Covenant has been superceded by the New

For example:

“Then they will confess their own error and the error and unfaithfulness of their fathers and admit that they behaved unfaithfully by walking in opposition to me. Then I also walked in opposition to them by bringing them into the land of their enemies. Perhaps then their uncircumcised heart will be humbled, and then they will pay off their error. And I will remember my covenant with Jacob, and my covenant with Isaac, and I will remember my covenant with Abraham, and I will remember the land.” Lev 26:40-42

 

[Outcast]

Summit wrote:

“I think you should define what Jew means in your question”

Yes. I believe this is an excellent exercise. Before commenting on the scriptures he/she cited, here’s the Apostle Paul’s definition:

“For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.” Rom 9:3-5

From the above verses we can see that the biblical definition of Jew/Israelite is:

• A fleshly relative/brother of the Apostle Paul
• Adopted by God as sons; I’m assuming this would be in connection to Abraham’s calling, and being born of Jacob
• Those who received the Covenants & the giving of the Law
• Those who inherited the sacred service (of the Temple, one assumes)
• Who claim the Forefathers - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
• Who are fleshly relatives of Jesus Christ
• And we can add to that those who “were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God” as seen in Romans 3:1-2

Regarding the scriptures Summit cited, the first thing to note is that Summit uses them out of context, thereby making it seem that they contradict one another.

For example, one citation says “A Jew is one on the inside” - so Jews exist? - but then in another it says “there is neither Jew nor Greek” - so Jews don’t exist? What is it; are there Jews, or not?

So to examine the cited scriptures:

• Romans 2:28-29 harks back to Romans 2:17-18:

“If, now, you are a Jew in name and rely on law and take pride in God, and you know his will and approve of things that are excellent because you are instructed out of the Law”

Jews definitely exist separate to Gentiles; that is borne out many times in the Bible including the same chapter: Rom 2:9-10

So what does it mean? It means that only faithful Jews are/were ever considered acceptable to Jehovah. Again, the parable of Matt 13:47-48 is a good example of how one can be a Jew yet not a “true Jew” - one who is both Jewish by race/conversion and circumcised of heart.

Romans 2:28-29 doesn’t expand on the definition of “Jew” to include ALL who are circumcised of heart, it limits the definition of a “true Jew” to those who are both circumcised in the flesh (vs 25, 27) and the heart (vs 29), and - for those prior to the establishment of the New Covenant - obeyed the Law (vs 18, 25-27)

• Romans 3:22 (and 10:12). The context of this “proof” is found earlier in the same chapter:

“What then? Are we in a better position? Not at all! For above we have made the charge that Jews as well as Greeks are all under sin” vs 9

“For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and it is as a free gift that they are being declared righteous by his undeserved kindness through the release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus.” vs 23-24

The Apostle Paul is explaining that ALL people - regardless of race - have sinned, and need release by the ransom paid by Christ Jesus, including Jews (even tho’ they have the Law, etc.) He’s not saying Jews don’t exist, he’s saying they’re in the same boat as everyone else: in desperate need for a Saviour.

Note Romans 10:13:

“For “everyone who calls on the name of Jehovah* will be saved.”

This is what Paul meant when he wrote Romans 3:22

• Galatians 3:28.

The context of this is first seen in Gal 1:6:

“I am amazed that you are so quickly turning away from the One who called you with Christ’s undeserved kindness to another sort of good news”

How were they turning away?

Certain ones were infiltrating the Christian Congregation and saying that Christians still needed to adhere to the Mosaic Law (a common occurence: see Acts 15:1).

“Nevertheless, not even Titus, who was with me, was compelled to be circumcised, although he was a Greek. But that matter came up because of the false brothers brought in quietly, who slipped in to spy on the freedom we enjoy in union with Christ Jesus, so that they might completely enslave us” Gal 3:3-4

Note also:

“But when I saw that they were not walking in step with the truth of the good news, I said to Ceʹphas before them all: “If you, though you are a Jew, live as the nations do and not as Jews do, how can you compel people of the nations to live according to Jewish practice?” Gal 3:14

Paul shows that both Jews and Greeks are declared “righteous” by faith alone, and not by adhering to the Mosaic Law:

“We who are Jews by birth, and not sinners from the nations, recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law.” Gal 2:15-16

So when Paul wrote “there is neither Jew nor Greek” he wasn’t declaring that Jews no longer existed but that in Christ they were saved, were now all sons of God, and could expect the blessings promised to Abraham:

“You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus.Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.” Gal 3:26-29

Furthermore, if we were to accept that “there is neither Jew nor Greek” then does that also mean that “there is neither [literal] male nor female”? Does that mean homosexuality is fine, then? Or we can be rainbow-flag waving, non-binary Christians? Obviously not.


Summit continues:

“But your question also asks whether we shouldn't be careful how we view and treat the physical Jews. The bible clearly states that there is no distinction anymore between the Jew and any other foreign nations.”

It’s not me who makes a distinction, but Jesus Himself:

“In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

“The least of these my brothers” must include the physical Jews; especially when one recalls Paul’s words at Romans 9:5. If anyone has a problem with that, their problem is with Jesus not me.


Summit continues:

“You quote Romans 11:1-2 talking of the Israelite nation being first recognized, however the scriptures are also quite clear regarding this. “. . .He does away with what is first that he may establish what is second.” (Heb 10:9) Thus being first recognized by God carries no weight anymore as to how God views the Israelite nation.”

But Summit seems to have confused the People with the Covenant.

Hebrews chapter 9 shows that Heb 10:9 is referring to the First Covenant being done away with so as to establish a Second - a New - Covenant:

“For its part, the former covenant used to have legal requirements for sacred service and its holy place on earth.” Heb 9:1

“That is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be established, because a covenant is valid at death, since it is not in force as long as the human covenanter is living. Consequently, neither was the former covenant put into effect without blood.” Heb 9:15-18

Did Jehovah do away with the Old - the First - Covenant? Yes.

Did Jehovah reject His First People?

“I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.” Rom 11:1-2

 

[Outcast]

I’d like to add a scripture for some further thought:

The Apostle Paul wrote:

“Become imitators of me, just as I am of Christ.” 1 Cor 11:1

And what was one of the Apostle Paul’s “hearts desire”?

“Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.” Rom 10:1 KJV

Since Paul imitated Christ we can know for sure that Jesus’ feels the same way about Israel - “the least of his brothers”

 

[Watchman]

Since that hasn’t happened yet, neither has the opening of their eyes happened yet.

Obviously, yours are not open.

 

[Bk Kevin]

I’d like to add a scripture for some further thought:

The Apostle Paul wrote:

“Become imitators of me, just as I am of Christ.” 1 Cor 11:1

And what was one of the Apostle Paul’s “hearts desire”?

“Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.” Rom 10:1 KJV

Since Paul imitated Christ we can know for sure that Jesus’ feels the same way about Israel - “the least of his brothers”

​

​

Food for thought...​

Psalm119:​

18 Uncover my eyes, that I may look+At the wonderful things out of your law.​

​

Does Israel in the Middle East factor into prophecy? > https://e-watchman.com/does-israel-in-the-middle-east-factor-into-prophecy/​

What is the Israel of God?> https://e-watchman.com/israel-god/​

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I’d like to add a scripture for some further thought:

The Apostle Paul wrote:

“Become imitators of me, just as I am of Christ.” 1 Cor 11:1

And what was one of the Apostle Paul’s “hearts desire”?

“Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.” Rom 10:1 KJV

Since Paul imitated Christ we can know for sure that Jesus’ feels the same way about Israel - “the least of his brothers”

What is the actual point you are trying to make?

 

[MickHewitt]

When our Prince arrives and annoints princes to rule for justice, each one providing a hiding place from the wind Isa321,2. When these three and half years find conclusion that will see the demise of the destroyer Isa33:1. When Jehovah pours out His Spirit Isa32:15, that's when fulfillment of Christ's words come to the fore..' John 14:12 "Most truly I say to you who ever exercises faith in me will also do the works tha I do and he will do works greater than these". Those works included healing the sick, feeding the hungry. These things will occur in what is termed the wilderness Isa 32:15,16 "Justice will reside in the wilderness and righteousness will dwell in the orchard" Where have we heard these words before? In Revelation 12:6 "And the woman fled into the wildrness where she has a place prepared by God and where they would feed her for 1,260 days" Surely everything to hold on and pray for!

I get stuck with exhausted, bland, repetitive prayers to Jehovah, I was so pleased to find refreshing help with poetic and more reaching words found in Psalms. Just one welcome example; 139:23,24 "Search through me O God and know my heart examine me and know my anxious thoughts. See whether there is in me any harmful way and lead me in the way of eternity!" Ps141:3 "Station a guard for my mouth O Jehovah set a watch over the door of my lips" Just gotta be careful my prayers don't resemble the ordering of a Chinese meal! A 139 with a 42 on the side!

 

[Watchman]

The idiocy of the state of Israel being part of God's purpose is apparent to anyone willing to use their mind. As in the first century, the Jews had the opportunity to accept Jesus. In fact, they had preferential treatment. They were at the head of the line, as it were. And even after people of the nations began to become anointed, Jews still had the opportunity. So, why, after 2,000 years would God revert back to using Israel when all that is needed to become Christian is readily available to everyone already? It is just plain stupid.

As I said already, the way things are shaping up Israel may well be annihilated by Iran. Keep in mind, that Israel is a very small country. About the size of New Jersey. Iran has 10s of thousands of precision missiles. Do the math. The destruction of Israel will destroy Evangelicals since they are founded upon Zionism.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I get stuck with exhausted, bland, repetitive prayers to Jehovah, I was so pleased to find refreshing help with poetic and more reaching words found in Psalms. Just one welcome example; 139:23,24 "Search through me O God and know my heart examine me and know my anxious thoughts. See whether there is in me any harmful way and lead me in the way of eternity!" Ps141:3 "Station a guard for my mouth O Jehovah set a watch over the door of my lips"

I don’t think you are alone in that thought Mick. There is not a lot one can say to the creator of all things. One can ask….givemegivemegiveme, but can give nothing in return. Acknowledgement, yes; praise yes, and thanks. It seems small beer - and how many times can it be said with meaning? The scripture you quote seems the most worthy of all to ask for, because there is not a lot more than we can rightly ask for other than understanding - not only of ourselves, but of the attributes of Jehovah. How little we understand of those items?! Poetry though is not a consideration. Sincerity is, but then, the obverse warns us not to assume “the use of many words,- in the hope of getting a hearing.”

An apparent conundrum is that Jehovah already knows our wants and needs before we even ask of them, and so one might assume then, that recognising our true wants and needs for ourselves is paramount. How else are we to learn from them if we do not know what they are? Clearly they are not food shelter and water - for even to sparrows He gives these things freely, also upon the wicked. Likewise then, why ask for protection, why worry about tomorrow, or as to what we should eat? It seems to be significant though that we recognise our dependancy yet before we can do that, we must first recognise our need to understand why we should.

All material things are given us, freely both upon the good and the bad. Our lives are but dust upon the scales. There is no gift that we can give - Jehovah owns everything. There is nothing we can take to the grave except loyalty and understanding - the fruits of the spirit. That is wisdom then, when ’understood”. It seems strange then that the bible deals with them as separate entities - one being the wisdom of Jehovah, the other perhaps of man - certainly the understanding of man is rather pointless, so perhaps then, the item of value in prayer is the understanding from Jehovah that we should ask for. That appears to hold the key to the attributes of Jehovah that we are meant to imbue our souls with, so that we can fulfil our purpose before Him. Until such time, it seems that all we can ask for is forgiveness - and according to scripture, we are fast running out of that. It leaves little option then for us to understand what really matters which seems to bring us back to square one of seeking wisdom and understanding…or at least recognising that we should ask for it. We are a lost cause without it.

 

[MickHewitt]

I get stuck with exhausted, bland, repetitive prayers to Jehovah, I was so pleased to find refreshing help with poetic and more reaching words found in Psalms. Just one welcome example; 139:23,24 "Search through me O God and know my heart examine me and know my anxious thoughts. See whether there is in me any harmful way and lead me in the way of eternity!" Ps141:3 "Station a guard for my mouth O Jehovah set a watch over the door of my lips" Just gotta be careful my prayers don't resemble the ordering of a Chinese meal! A 139 with a 42 on the side!

Hamas who created by Israel cannot afford hostages witnesses of Oct 7th to relate how IDF forces killed most of their fellow Israeli celebrants: Netanyahu's existence is dependant on continuence of war with Hamas!

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Hamas who created by Israel cannot afford hostages witnesses of Oct 7th to relate how IDF forces killed most of their fellow Israeli celebrants: Netanyahu's existence is dependant on continuence of war with Hamas!

You have a point mick!

 

[MickHewitt]

You have a point micK

He's a desperate man used by London and if he explains to the world what London inspired him to do the world would be informed. We are informed regardless, shame for him really. If we had influence with him we would encourage him to log on here and repent! He is proving worse than Amalek

 

[MickHewitt]

He's a desperate man used by London and if he explains to the world what London inspired him to do the world would be informed. We are informed regardless, shame for him really. If we had influence with him we would encourage him to log on here and repent!

How wonderful the facility of repentance, of deep sorrow, of a broken heart to Jehovah! Our loving God does not turn it away! It's what He's looking for!

 

[Jahrule]

The idiocy of the state of Israel being part of God's purpose is apparent to anyone willing to use their mind. As in the first century, the Jews had the opportunity to accept Jesus. In fact, they had preferential treatment. They were at the head of the line, as it were. And even after people of the nations began to become anointed, Jews still had the opportunity. So, why, after 2,000 years would God revert back to using Israel when all that is needed to become Christian is readily available to everyone already? It is just plain stupid.

As I said already, the way things are shaping up Israel may well be annihilated by Iran. Keep in mind, that Israel is a very small country. About the size of New Jersey. Iran has 10s of thousands of precision missiles. Do the math. The destruction of Israel will destroy Evangelicals since they are founded upon Zionism.

It's the language that confuses people. Just like when Jesus talked about eating his flesh and drinking his blood. That freaked a lot of people out because they probably thought he was referring to cannibalism. People see a word and assume they understand it. With Jah, however, meaning seems to be more important than the words or sounds used to convey it, and why wouldn't it be that way? God's trying to communicate a message to us, not conduct a generational class on linguistics and vocabulary.

 

[MickHewitt]

How wonderful the facility of repentance, of deep sorrow, of a broken heart to Jehovah! Our loving God does not turn it away! It's what He's looking for!

We are certainly blessed here in education: What about the fierce looking king understanding ambiguous sayings Dan8:23 who is about to take office; power not of his own; does his benefactor the prince of darkness have the ability to unambiguate prophetic details? Or is it only because he is reading the blessed understandings of our Watchman that he gets informed?

 

[MickHewitt]

He's a desperate man used by London and if he explains to the world what London inspired him to do the world would be informed. We are informed regardless, shame for him really. If we had influence with him we would encourage him to log on here and repent! He is proving worse than Amalek

Netanyahu quoting God's word when pointing to Amalek: If they read it well they would iron out the star on their flag Amos 5:26?

 

[Summit]

Summit wrote:

“I think you should define what Jew means in your question”

Yes. I believe this is an excellent exercise. Before commenting on the scriptures he/she cited, here’s the Apostle Paul’s definition:

“For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.” Rom 9:3-5

From the above verses we can see that the biblical definition of Jew/Israelite is:

• A fleshly relative/brother of the Apostle Paul
• Adopted by God as sons; I’m assuming this would be in connection to Abraham’s calling, and being born of Jacob
• Those who received the Covenants & the giving of the Law
• Those who inherited the sacred service (of the Temple, one assumes)
• Who claim the Forefathers - Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
• Who are fleshly relatives of Jesus Christ
• And we can add to that those who “were entrusted with the sacred pronouncements of God” as seen in Romans 3:1-2

Regarding the scriptures Summit cited, the first thing to note is that Summit uses them out of context, thereby making it seem that they contradict one another.

For example, one citation says “A Jew is one on the inside” - so Jews exist? - but then in another it says “there is neither Jew nor Greek” - so Jews don’t exist? What is it; are there Jews, or not?

So to examine the cited scriptures:

• Romans 2:28-29 harks back to Romans 2:17-18:

“If, now, you are a Jew in name and rely on law and take pride in God, and you know his will and approve of things that are excellent because you are instructed out of the Law”

Jews definitely exist separate to Gentiles; that is borne out many times in the Bible including the same chapter: Rom 2:9-10

So what does it mean? It means that only faithful Jews are/were ever considered acceptable to Jehovah. Again, the parable of Matt 13:47-48 is a good example of how one can be a Jew yet not a “true Jew” - one who is both Jewish by race/conversion and circumcised of heart.

Romans 2:28-29 doesn’t expand on the definition of “Jew” to include ALL who are circumcised of heart, it limits the definition of a “true Jew” to those who are both circumcised in the flesh (vs 25, 27) and the heart (vs 29), and - for those prior to the establishment of the New Covenant - obeyed the Law (vs 18, 25-27)

• Romans 3:22 (and 10:12). The context of this “proof” is found earlier in the same chapter:

“We who are Jews by birth, and not sinners from the nations, recognize that a man is declared righteous, not by works of law, but only through faith in Jesus Christ. So we have put our faith in Christ Jesus, so that we may be declared righteous by faith in Christ and not by works of law, for no one will be declared righteous by works of law.” Gal 2:15-16

So when Paul wrote “there is neither Jew nor Greek” he wasn’t declaring that Jews no longer existed but that in Christ they were saved, were now all sons of God, and could expect the blessings promised to Abraham:

“You are all, in fact, sons of God through your faith in Christ Jesus. For all of you who were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female, for you are all one in union with Christ Jesus.Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham’s offspring, heirs with reference to a promise.” Gal 3:26-29

Furthermore, if we were to accept that “there is neither Jew nor Greek” then does that also mean that “there is neither [literal] male nor female”? Does that mean homosexuality is fine, then? Or we can be rainbow-flag waving, non-binary Christians? Obviously not.


Summit continues:

“But your question also asks whether we shouldn't be careful how we view and treat the physical Jews. The bible clearly states that there is no distinction anymore between the Jew and any other foreign nations.”

It’s not me who makes a distinction, but Jesus Himself:

“In reply the King will say to them, ‘Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of the least of these my brothers, you did it to me.’”

“The least of these my brothers” must include the physical Jews; especially when one recalls Paul’s words at Romans 9:5. If anyone has a problem with that, their problem is with Jesus not me.


Summit continues:

“You quote Romans 11:1-2 talking of the Israelite nation being first recognized, however the scriptures are also quite clear regarding this. “. . .He does away with what is first that he may establish what is second.” (Heb 10:9) Thus being first recognized by God carries no weight anymore as to how God views the Israelite nation.”

But Summit seems to have confused the People with the Covenant.

Hebrews chapter 9 shows that Heb 10:9 is referring to the First Covenant being done away with so as to establish a Second - a New - Covenant:

“For its part, the former covenant used to have legal requirements for sacred service and its holy place on earth.” Heb 9:1

“That is why he is a mediator of a new covenant, in order that because a death has occurred for their release by ransom from the transgressions under the former covenant, those who have been called may receive the promise of the everlasting inheritance.For where there is a covenant, the death of the human covenanter needs to be established, because a covenant is valid at death, since it is not in force as long as the human covenanter is living. Consequently, neither was the former covenant put into effect without blood.” Heb 9:15-18

Did Jehovah do away with the Old - the First - Covenant? Yes.

Did Jehovah reject His First People?

“I ask, then, God did not reject his people, did he? By no means! For I too am an Israelite, of the offspring of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he first recognized.” Rom 11:1-2

To be honest i'm not sure what your point is regarding all this, however it doesn't seem to be finding the truth. I say this because you are cherry picking scripture and avoiding other verses that diminish from your point of view. For example, you use these verses in Romans to define what a Jew is:

“For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.” Rom 9:3-5

But then you completely ignore the following verses which state:

“. . .However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.” (Ro 9:6-8)

And that in a nutshell brings your entire framework down. Yes the Israelites WERE Gods chosen people, they are no more. You seem to think that because he didn't reject them, that means they will be reinstated as his chosen people. That isn't what that means. To be rejected would mean that they would not have a chance again for salvation, but because he did not reject them they will be given the same opportunity as everybody else to put faith in Jesus Christ. Thats all that means.

And regarding those whom he first recognized. Even prior to the Israelite nation, God first recognized Jesus Christ and his spiritual brothers. “. . .Now we know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” (Ro 8:28-29)

These are the true Jews in todays world, and it has nothing to do with their ethnicity which you seem to think does.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

To be honest i'm not sure what your point is regarding all this, however it doesn't seem to be finding the truth. I say this because you are cherry picking scripture and avoiding other verses that diminish from your point of view. For example, you use these verses in Romans to define what a Jew is:

“For I could wish that I myself were separated from the Christ as the cursed one for the sake of my brothers, my relatives according to the flesh, who are Israelites. To them belong the adoption as sons and the glory and the covenants and the giving of the Law and the sacred service and the promises. To them the forefathers belong, and from them the Christ descended according to the flesh. God, who is over all, be praised forever. Amen.” Rom 9:3-5

But then you completely ignore the following verses which state:

“. . .However, it is not as though the word of God had failed. For not all who [spring] from Israel are really “Israel.” 7 Neither because they are Abraham’s seed are they all children, but: “What will be called ‘your seed’ will be through Isaac.” 8 That is, the children in the flesh are not really the children of God, but the children by the promise are counted as the seed.” (Ro 9:6-8)

And that in a nutshell brings your entire framework down. Yes the Israelites WERE Gods chosen people, they are no more. You seem to think that because he didn't reject them, that means they will be reinstated as his chosen people. That isn't what that means. To be rejected would mean that they would not have a chance again for salvation, but because he did not reject them they will be given the same opportunity as everybody else to put faith in Jesus Christ. Thats all that means.

And regarding those whom he first recognized. Even prior to the Israelite nation, God first recognized Jesus Christ and his spiritual brothers. “. . .Now we know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; 29 because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” (Ro 8:28-29)

These are the true Jews in todays world, and it has nothing to do with their ethnicity which you seem to think does.

Sanity in a world of confusion.

 

[Outcast]

To be honest i'm not sure what your point is regarding all this

I believe you've missed what I've said, and what Romans 9-11 is teaching

Basically, you're saying "Paul didn't really mean what he wrote; he didn't really mean his fellow Israelites according to the flesh, even tho he said 'my brothers according to the flesh'; he actually meant something else"

A straightforward reading of Romans chapters 9-11 shows very plainly - if you're willing to accept the words of the Bible ‐ that once the full number of Gentiles have "come in" Jehovah, for the sake of the Patriarchs, will turn His attention to a remnant of physical Jews to open their eyes to the truth that is Jesus, thereby opening the way for them to put their faith in Him in an unprecedented way not seen since the First Century.

Im not the one saying this; Jehovah is. Anyone can read it for themselves. Its written so plainly that I'm astonished that anyone would reject it in favour of the unbiblical idea that Jehovah has completely discarded the Jews, and forgotten all His promises to them, as though he is NOT the God who keeps Covenant

The reality is: there are over 2600 mentions of Israel throughout the bible and ALL of them bar a mere few (if that) refer to the physical nation of Israel, so it's not me who is cherrypicking verses to prop up this idea; it's written all throughout the bible. It's those who say Israel has no place in Jehovah's future plans that must delicately cherrypick a few select verses and twist them out of context (or use them ignorantly) to make their case

But to be sure, our understanding isn't that much different; the differences are in the details

You wrote:

"You seem to think that because he didn't reject them, that means they will be reinstated as his chosen people."

That is not what I've said

As I've acknowledged already in previous posts: Not all Israel is faithful

Paul himself rules out all unspiritual, secular & atheistic/agnostic Jews when he wrote:

"but Israel, although pursuing a law of righteousness, did not attain to that law. For what reason? Because they pursued it, not by faith, but as by works. They stumbled over the “stone of stumbling”" Rom 9:31-32

&

"For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge." Rom 10:2

Only Jews who worship under the Mosaic Law could be considered those who "pursued righteousness" and "have a zeal for God, but not according to accurate knowledge"

Furthermore, Jesus himself told the Pharisees that their father was the devil. Again, "not all Israel is Israel"; only those who are acceptable to Jehovah, only those chosen by Him

So this narrows down the field dramatically and means that only a remnant from among the modern-day Jews will be chosen to have their eyes opened

As Paul wrote:

"Moreover, Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Although the number of the sons of Israel may be as the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved"" Rom 9:27

What I am saying is what Paul is teaching:

They (the Israelite remnant) are "with respect to God’s choosing... beloved for the sake of their forefathers" Rom 11:28

And, when "the full number of people of the nations has come in" (Rom 11:25) God will once again turn His attention to these chosen few in order to save them (Rom 11:26)


You continued:

"To be rejected would mean that they would not have a chance again for salvation, but because he did not reject them they will be given the same opportunity as everybody else to put faith in Jesus Christ."

I largely agree with this; the path to salvation is the same: Faith in Jesus Christ (Rom 10:9-12).

But as the scriptures show, the problem is that a veil lies over their mind which keeps them from seeing the truth that is Jesus:

"But their (the sons of Israel - vs 13) minds were dulled. For to this present day, the same veil remains unlifted when the old covenant is read, because it is taken away only by means of Christ." 2 Cor 3:14

And this lies at the heart of what Paul is teaching us Gentiles who, even in Paul's day, were becoming arrogant & conceited in thinking in their hearts that they were better than the Jews because the Jews had "fallen from grace" due to their rejection their Messiah and their clinging to the Old (works-based) Covenant for salvation, despite the prophecy given in Jer 31 that there'd be a New Covenant unlike the Old one

This conceited arrogance can (and has) lead to antisemitism; a hatred of the Jews, who are Jesus' fleshly brothers and are therefore part of the equation when Jesus said (or, will say) "that you did it to the least of these my brothers you did it to me". Indeed, we're seeing a dramatic rise in antisemitism around the world due the military actions of the State of Israel even now, and dare I say it: I've often seen a callousness towards the Jews by many Christians including some here


Regarding Rom 8: I'm not sure why you have mentioned that as tho' it somehow negates what Paul says in chapters 9-11. Yes, God foreknew who would be Christ's brothers - He knew the end from the beginning - it doesn't change what Paul wrote in Chapters 9-11 one iota. He foreknew both; and what?

Here is a question for you - and for anyone who would care to answer:

WHY is Romans chapters 9-11 in the bible? If it's all done & dusted and Israel has no further place in God's plan - as everyone here is saying - WHY did Jehovah inspire Paul to write those chapters? What's the purpose if there's nothing special about them anymore?

The letter to the Romans is unquestionably one of the most profound pieces of literature in all of history; clearly inspired by Jehovah. And over 20% of it is dedicated to this subject of saving (a remnant of) the physical nation of Israel. Why? Why, if it's not important? Why, if it's insignificant? Why, if it's not true?

And another question: Whom did Jehovah make the New Covenant with?

Paul says in Rom 9:4 that to the physical Israelites belong "the covenants"

Jehovah himself tells us:

"Look! The days are coming,” declares Jehovah, “when I will make with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah a new covenant. It will not be like the covenant that I made with their forefathers on the day I took hold of their hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, ‘my covenant that they broke,although I was their true master,’ declares Jehovah.” Jer 31:31-32

"The House of Israel and the House of Judah"

We know he's talking about physical Israel because he invokes the Old Covenant made with "their forefathers"

The only way Gentiles - likened to wild Olive Branches in Rom 11 - can be included in the New Covenant is by dying a death with Christ in baptism and being raised to new life in Christ. They are "unnatural branches" that must be grafted in. But the Israelites are the "natural branches". They were broken off because of unbelief but Romans chapters 9-11 is explaining that a small remnant of Israelites chosen by election will have their blindness removed and will be grafted back in. It may only be a small remnant of the entire nation but it promises to be noteworthy

We might perceive this as unfair in some way, but how can the clay tell the Potter what to do? He's told us "they are beloved for the sake of the Patriarchs", and we have to accept that. Some of David's descendants weren't faithful but Jah allowed them to reign anyway - for the sake of David (2 Chron 21:7). If Jah wants to show special favour to a remnant of physical Israel, who are we to argue?

We need to make sure that we don't join in mistreating any of Christ's brothers, even the least of them. Unfortunately, like the Edomites mentioned in Obadiah, many Christians are cheering the destruction of the Jews at this time

Anyway, I appreciate your reply & wish you all the best. May Jehovah bless you.

 

[Watchman]

We need to make sure that we don't join in mistreating any of Christ's brothers, even the least of them. Unfortunately, like the Edomites mentioned in Obadiah, many Christians are cheering the destruction of the Jews at this time

I expect the British Empire's Zion project in the Middle East to be sacrificed in the looming conflagration to destroy China's BRI. As collateral damage, it will destroy evangelical fundamentalism, which has hitched its wagon to the state of Israel. Jehovah has obliterated Jerusalem and Israel on more than one occasion. The next time ought to do the trick.