Heaven or heavens, what do they symbolize?

Serenity

Serenity

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Matthew 24: 29-31 reads as follows:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

The word heaven or heavens appear 5 times in these 3 verses.
1) The stars will fall from heaven
2) The powers of the heavens will be shaken
3) The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven
4) They will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven
5) his angels...will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity

It is known that "heaven" in the Bible can refer to the literal heavens above us, but the words heaven or heavens are very often used in a symbolic sense, as in representing ruling powers, governments. Are all of the occurrances of the word heaven or heavens figurative in the verses above, and if so, do they all refer to the same "heaven" or "heavens"? Are the "clouds" spoken of in verse 30 symbolic (item 4) and if so, what do they symbolize? Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud. Jehovah is said to come on a swift cloud, and here Jesus is said to be seen coming on the clouds of heaven. Does this coming on clouds mean that Jehovah and Jesus will not be literally "seen" in these instances?

Are these verses describing the fading out or failure and collapse of human rule and governments and the transitioning of rulership from human rule to rulership by Jesus Christ and the gathering of the 144,000 to Christ to begin ruling in the kingdom of God?

I'm looking to gain more insight and deeper, clearer understanding of these verses.
 
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Serenity said:
It is known that "heaven" in the Bible can refer to the literal heavens above us, but the words heaven or heavens are very often used in a symbolic sense, as in representing ruling powers, governments. Are all of the occurrances of the word heaven or heavens figurative in the verses above, and if so, do they all refer to the same "heaven" or "heavens"? Are the "clouds" spoken of in verse 30 symbolic (item 4) and if so, what do they symbolize? Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud. Jehovah is said to come on a swift cloud, and here Jesus is said to be seen coming on the clouds of heaven. Does this coming on clouds mean that Jehovah and Jesus will not be literally "seen" in these instances?
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When Jesus was taken up into the clouds, he became invisible to those on earth looking up. So, if Jesus is coming on the clouds, that denotes invisibility. However, people on earth will see the sign of the Son of man. So they will know that they are dealing with Jesus and not some alien invasion or the wrath of Allah or anything like that. Of course, although Jesus will be invisible to everyone, he will become manifest to the chosen and they will see him as he is.
 
Watchman said:
When Jesus was taken up into the clouds, he became invisible to those on earth looking up. So, if Jesus is coming on the clouds, that denotes invisibility. However, people on earth will see the sign of the Son of man. So they will know that they are dealing with Jesus and not some alien invasion or the wrath of Allah or anything like that. Of course, although Jesus will be invisible to everyone, he will become manifest to the chosen and they will see him as he is.
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Yes, that is also what I thought too. The clouds indicate invisibility, but the people will know, or see with the eyes of understanding that they are witnesssing the second coming or return of Christ. Since this has not yet occurred, and the Watchtower also teaches that it hasn't yet occurred, this is additional Scriptural support that Christ's second coming is yet future and didn't happen in 1914. The world hasn't yet 'seen' through the eyes of understanding that Jesus has already come invisibly to the world, only Jehovah's Witnesses teach that he returned invisibly in 1914.
 
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Serenity said:
Yes, that is also what I thought too. The clouds indicate invisibility, but the people will know, or see with the eyes of understanding that they are witnesssing the second coming or return of Christ. Since this hasn't occurred yet, and the Watchtower also teaches that it hasn't yet occurred, this is additional Scriptural support that Christ's second coming is yet future and didn't happen in 1914. The world hasn't yet 'seen' through the eyes of understanding that Jesus has already come invisibly to the world, only Jehovah's Witnesses teach that he returned invisibly in 1914.
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Just like in the first century Gods people did not except Jesus so it will be the same in the TRUE second coming of Jesus because Gods people today believe he came in 1914.
 
Watchman said:
When Jesus was taken up into the clouds, he became invisible to those on earth looking up. So, if Jesus is coming on the clouds, that denotes invisibility. However, people on earth will see the sign of the Son of man. So they will know that they are dealing with Jesus and not some alien invasion or the wrath of Allah or anything like that. Of course, although Jesus will be invisible to everyone, he will become manifest to the chosen and they will see him as he is.
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So all of the references to "the heavens" (except the last one, #5) in these verses are to the ruling powers, first to the existing human governments, who no longer give any light or guidance to mankind, then to Christ Jesus, who is coming in power and great glory. The "heavens" that are spoken of from which the chosen ones are gathered are then, the literal heavens reaching to the four corners of the earth?
 
Serenity said:
Matthew 24: 29-31 reads as follows:

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven, and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief, and they will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a great trumpet sound, and they will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity."

The word heaven or heavens appear 5 times in these 3 verses.
1) The stars will fall from heaven
2) The powers of the heavens will be shaken
3) The sign of the Son of man will appear in heaven
4) They will see the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven
5) his angels...will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from one extremity of the heavens to their other extremity

It is known that "heaven" in the Bible can refer to the literal heavens above us, but the words heaven or heavens are very often used in a symbolic sense, as in representing ruling powers, governments. Are all of the occurrances of the word heaven or heavens figurative in the verses above, and if so, do they all refer to the same "heaven" or "heavens"? Are the "clouds" spoken of in verse 30 symbolic (item 4) and if so, what do they symbolize? Jesus ascended to heaven in a cloud. Jehovah is said to come on a swift cloud, and here Jesus is said to be seen coming on the clouds of heaven. Does this coming on clouds mean that Jehovah and Jesus will not be literally "seen" in these instances?

Are these verses describing the fading out or failure and collapse of human rule and governments and the transitioning of rulership from human rule to rulership by Jesus Christ and the gathering of the 144,000 to Christ to begin ruling in the kingdom of God?

I'm looking to gain more insight and deeper, clearer understanding of these verses.
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We might see literal signs in the sky and also they symbolize the human governments that will fall when civilization collapses and the beast is wounded. Besides, the nuclear bombs will darken the skies around the world.
 
LuisMerino9412 said:
they symbolize the human governments that will fall when civilization collapses and the beast is wounded
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Yes, the heavens spoken of in verse 29 seems to be referring to symbolic heavens representing earthly ruling powers which will be shaken, and darkened, unable to provide any guiding light for mankind.
 
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Serenity said:
Yes, the heavens spoken of in verse 29 seegm to be referring to symbolic heavens representing earthly ruling powers which will be shaken, and darkened, unable to provide any guiding light for mankind.
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What about the ones referred to as "world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places"? (Eph. 6:12)
Since they will be thrown down to earth, would they be considered as part of the shaking?
 
Patricia said:
What about the ones referred to as "world rulers of this darkness, against the wicked spirit forces in the heavenly places"? (Eph. 6:12)
Since they will be thrown down to earth, would they be considered as part of the shaking?
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Good question. There is a lot packed into those few verses to unpack.
 
Jesus Christ mentioned a number of times (John 6:63, Revelation 1:1) , that his sayings are spiritual, in other words, he spoke "biblical language" (as if in inspired way). Since his message (much like the law of Moses was exclusively directed to the nation of Israel) was also exclusively directed to the (spiritual) Israel of God, the "heavens" represent the governing body of WT and their princes and helpers with all the anointed that are collaborating with them (by the way 'stars' represent the anointing brothers (men and women) of Jesus Christ.
 
LuisMerino9412 said:
It might refer to the fall of Satan from heaven too. The stars could mean the demon angels.
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i may be incorrect but i thought the falling stars being pulled down referred to the holy ones the 144000.00 ?

Revelation to John 6:1-17​

13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. 14  And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15  Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16  And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over usa and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17  because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
 
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lflynn22 said:
i may be incorrect but i thought the falling stars being pulled down referred to the holy ones the 144000.00 ?

Revelation to John 6:1-17​

13 and the stars of heaven fell to the earth as when a fig tree shaken by a high wind drops its unripe figs. 14  And the heaven departed as a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and every island was removed from its place. 15  Then the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, every slave, and every free person hid in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains. 16  And they keep saying to the mountains and to the rocks: “Fall over usa and hide us from the face of the One seated on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb, 17  because the great day of their wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”
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Yes, you're right! The expression "heaven departed as a scroll" can mean that governing body with its helpers and supporters as a governing institution of JW has been judged by Jesus and thrown into the "darkness"!
 
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