Hour of Test

Carl said:
Aren’t we considered spiritual Jews?
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Technically the GC is not.
Watchman said:
The ransom and the mediation are not the same.
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I get that, and your explanation makes total sense. And there is no doubt it is good to understand what these things mean. But I would argue the ransom itself acts as a mediation for the GC as well, but the mediation talked about in the Bible is not that. So I understand the confusion that causes.

All I was really saying is that we are not going to be perfect at the beginning of the thousand year reign, therefore until we attain to perfection Jesus ransom would continue to apply, because until we are perfect we will continue to sin, and "the wages sin pays is death" and that is in fact one of the reasons Satan is let out at the end of thousand year reign to test those who have attained to perfection. Which is a whole other discussion that the Bible doesn't even touch on.

So referring to Jesus as our "Mediator" while technically not accurate, neither is the English word "Jehovah" technically accurate since it is not Hebrew, but we use certain terms because people are familiar with them and they convey the meaning we are trying to get across.
 
Nomex said:
Technically the GC is not.

I get that, and your explanation makes total sense. And there is no doubt it is good to understand what these things mean. But I would argue the ransom itself acts as a mediation for the GC as well, but the mediation talked about in the Bible is not that. So I understand the confusion that causes.

All I was really saying is that we are not going to be perfect at the beginning of the thousand year reign, therefore until we attain to perfection Jesus ransom would continue to apply, because until we are perfect we will continue to sin, and "the wages sin pays is death" and that is in fact one of the reasons Satan is let out at the end of thousand year reign to test those who have attained to perfection. Which is a whole other discussion that the Bible doesn't even touch on.

So referring to Jesus as our "Mediator" while technically not accurate, neither is the English word "Jehovah" technically accurate since it is not Hebrew, but we use certain terms because people are familiar with them and they convey the meaning we are trying to get across.
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Just be aware that the Ray Franz sect is all about Jesus being everyone's mediator.
 
Watchman said:
Just be aware that the Ray Franz sect is all about Jesus being everyone's mediator.
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Well I guess it depends on what they think that is. To me that means they think everyone goes to heaven, which is of course stupid, mankind did not lose their right to live in heaven, which again lends to the confusion.

It's not really something that I was trying to put up for debate, my ONE AND ONLY comment was that we won't instantly be made perfect after Armageddon. So it seems to me we will still be dependent of Christ ransom until we are perfect (whatever you call that) and pass the final test when Satan is released from the Abyss, but then again it seems to me that won't be much of a test for those who make through Armageddon...it's just a lot of unknowns.

The last thing I will say about this, is it is confusing and understandably so. We all need Christ's ransom to have our sins forgiven, so that's what I was referring to when I called him "our mediator" that is to say the GC's mediator, but I get the distinction and why it is important to know and understand the distinction. It goes along with understanding why any of us humans go to heaven in the first place.
 
Nomex said:
Well I guess it depends on what they think that is. To me that means they think everyone goes to heaven, which is of course stupid, mankind did not lose their right to live in heaven, which again lends to the confusion.

It's not really something that I was trying to put up for debate, my ONE AND ONLY comment was that we won't instantly be made perfect after Armageddon. So it seems to me we will still be dependent of Christ ransom until we are perfect (whatever you call that) and pass the final test when Satan is released from the Abyss, but then again it seems to me that won't be much of a test for those who make through Armageddon...it's just a lot of unknowns.

The last thing I will say about this, is it is confusing and understandably so. We all need Christ's ransom to have our sins forgiven, so that's what I was referring to when I called him "our mediator" that is to say the GC's mediator, but I get the distinction and why it is important to know and understand the distinction. It goes along with understanding why any of us humans go to heaven in the first place.
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To mitigate the confusion over mediation and ransom, consider the question: What do the billions of people who have lived and died need to do to qualify for a resurrection? The answer, of course, is nothing. They do not need a mediator. They have already been ransomed from death. Christ's mediation, though, is for the living who have been called to stand before Jehovah's presence in heaven.
 
Okay now I'm confused. Is everyone who is resurrected to life on earth considered to be "the unrighteous"? (There is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous)
 
Patricia said:
Okay now I'm confused. Is everyone who is resurrected to life on earth considered to be "the unrighteous"? (There is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous)
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That's a confusing topic. Abraham was declared righteous based on his faith. Will he be considered unrighteous when he's resurrected? What about Moses? Honestly, I don't worry about it. Same goes with who is and isn't anointed. I'm prepared for anything that's asked of me. There's so much we don't know, and can't know right now. What's been great about this thread is the lack of an "I'm right, you're wrong" declaration. Until Jesus returns, much of what we debate here is conjecture.
 
MickHewitt said:
5:50 min in dear bro Nomex you are in a place you don't wanna be!
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Isn't that the best talk you could ever witness; our Watchman has provided a library of spiritual wealth for our benefit; that's why those of us being here for some time have no excuse for ignorance in these matters; if the congregation of Jehovah's witnesses would have had these talks instead of being straight jacketed to the nonsense they are being fed they would have grown up spiritually. The time left is reduced it would be wise to absorb as much as you can from Jehovah's table here at e-watchman.
 
Nomex said:
Well I guess it depends on what they think that is. To me that means they think everyone goes to heaven, which is of course stupid, mankind did not lose their right to live in heaven, which again lends to the confusion.

It's not really something that I was trying to put up for debate, my ONE AND ONLY comment was that we won't instantly be made perfect after Armageddon. So it seems to me we will still be dependent of Christ ransom until we are perfect (whatever you call that) and pass the final test when Satan is released from the Abyss, but then again it seems to me that won't be much of a test for those who make through Armageddon...it's just a lot of unknowns.

The last thing I will say about this, is it is confusing and understandably so. We all need Christ's ransom to have our sins forgiven, so that's what I was referring to when I called him "our mediator" that is to say the GC's mediator, but I get the distinction and why it is important to know and understand the distinction. It goes along with understanding why any of us humans go to heaven in the first place.
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Perhaps the ransom has more than one application. There are after all, two outcomes, one in principle and the other in answer to the challenge. The principle being that a man can resist satan and will lovingly subject himself to the principles and rights of our creator Jehovah, and in answer, the emphatic statement of just how pure in that faithfulness they can be - equal to that of angels - can also be rewarded by the highest honour, that of eternal possession of life. Something that perhaps satan could have aspired to. That requires mediation, but it is also written beforehand is it not?
 
Carl said:
Abraham was declared righteous based on his faith. Will he be considered unrighteous when he's resurrected?
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John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming (2nd resurrection) in which all those in the memorial tombs (all mankind's dead including Abraham, the prophets, John the Baptist etc)will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things (in the post resurrection 1,000 yr period) to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things (again in the one thousand yr post resurrection period) to a resurrection of judgment"
 
Patricia said:
Okay now I'm confused. Is everyone who is resurrected to life on earth considered to be "the unrighteous"? (There is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and the unrighteous)
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There were many of Abraham's offspring that Jehovah considered to be righteous. However, they were not credited with perfection and sinlessness. Born again, persons must be perfect, sinless, in order to stand before Jehovah. Speaking of the heavenly calling, Paul wrote in the 3rd chapter of Philippians: "Not that I have already received it or am already made perfect, but I am pursuing to see if I may also lay hold on that for which I have also been laid hold on by Christ Jesus."

Writing to the Hebrews concerning Christ's sacrifice, Paul said: "For it is by one sacrificial offering that he has made those who are being sanctified perfect for all time."

So, being righteous in God's sight and being perfect is not the same thing. Christ's ransom sacrifice makes possible both the earthly and heavenly resurrections. However, Christ's mediation brings about the perfection of those who receive the first resurrection.
 
Watchman said:
So, being righteous in God's sight and being perfect is not the same thing. Christ's ransom sacrifice makes possible both the earthly and heavenly resurrections. However, Christ's mediation brings about the perfection of those who receive the first resurrection.
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Thank you. Yes, I was equating righteousness with being made perfect. Now that makes sense.
So then if you would verify something else that I'm now pondering: since Israel's priestly arrangement was a foreshadow of God's kingdom, back then, the priests were the go between(mediator) between God and the people, so what I'm thinking is that this won't happen the same way until Christ returns and the remnant are sealed.--or after Armageddon ?
 
MickHewitt said:
John 5:28-29 "Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming (2nd resurrection) in which all those in the memorial tombs (all mankind's dead including Abraham, the prophets, John the Baptist etc)will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things (in the post resurrection 1,000 yr period) to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things (again in the one thousand yr post resurrection period) to a resurrection of judgment"
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John 5:25-27 “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man."

These verses are confusing, and are part of the reason we have so many different opinions about the Bible. The "hour" Jesus was referring to obviously wasn't the HOT. He literally said the hour is now... giving more proof that the HOT will be 3 & 1/2 years like his original hour. I would say he was telling his audience of prospective Anointed, that their eternal life, having life in themselves, depended upon their faith in him as Jehovah's mouthpiece. Those who heard this probably didn't know it, but I believe he was saying they were dead people walking, unless they placed their faith in him as their Mediator. Unfortunately, I have to agree to disagree with people who believe the resurrection started back then... and wait for Jesus to break the tie. I can't be an "I'm right, you're wrong" kind of person and expect people to respect me.

John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

These verses are also confusing. Here, Jesus is referring to another "hour." I would say he's referring to the HOT, when the dead in Christ (Anointed) are resurrected to Heaven. When I read this, I see Jesus telling his disciples that the righteous who placed their faith in him as their Mediator will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection; those who knew the Truth, but still sinned against the Jehovah's Holy Spirit will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Otherwise, it opens the door to people believing Jesus was saying people like Abraham, Moses and so many others would be part of the 1st resurrection... which we know isn't possible as Robert has pointed out, since it wasn't an option until Pentecost.
 
@ Watchman
‘those who receive an earthly resurrection are not made perfect instantaneously upon the
resurrection as I mentioned they are on probation a resurrection of judgment’ from the video: 'The shocking truth about Jesus being mediator of 144,000’

I understand the situation about the covenant and Jesus being the mediator of the 144,000. And consequently that they will be instantly made perfect, the moment they get the first resurrection.
I also understand that those who receive an earthly resurrection are not made perfect instantaneously upon the resurrection.

Having said and understood that my question is: What about the ones from Revelation 7:13, 14 - who make it through Armageddon alive. Are they also on probation?
Were they not subject to and steadfast in the great tribulation and refused the mark of the beast? Or do they have to go through the whole process of being tested by Satan again??
 
Edith said:
What about the ones from Revelation 7:13, 14 - who make it through Armageddon alive. Are they also on probation?
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They are before the throne of God; and they are rendering him sacred service; welcoming and instructing those coming out of the memorial tombs.
 
Edith said:
@ Watchman
‘those who receive an earthly resurrection are not made perfect instantaneously upon the
resurrection as I mentioned they are on probation a resurrection of judgment’ from the video: 'The shocking truth about Jesus being mediator of 144,000’

I understand the situation about the covenant and Jesus being the mediator of the 144,000. And consequently that they will be instantly made perfect, the moment they get the first resurrection.
I also understand that those who receive an earthly resurrection are not made perfect instantaneously upon the resurrection.

Having said and understood that my question is: What about the ones from Revelation 7:13, 14 - who make it through Armageddon alive. Are they also on probation?
Were they not subject to and steadfast in the great tribulation and refused the mark of the beast? Or do they have to go through the whole process of being tested by Satan again??
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Humans will always be subject to the second death. Only the 144,000 are given incorruptibleness, which is why the second death has no authority over them. At the end of the thousand years, all humanity will have to pass the final test when Satan and the demons are let loose.
 
Carl said:
Unfortunately, I have to agree to disagree with people who believe the resurrection started back then..
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What resurrection started back then? Who believes the resurrection started back then: You have problems with Christ designating the term 'hours' to differing periods in time.
You have a whole wheelbarrow full of confusions. Calm down and put faith in what you have believed in so far and not be put off.
 
Carl said:
John 5:25-27 “Most truly I say to you, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who have paid attention will live. For just as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted also to the Son to have life in himself. And he has given him authority to do judging, because he is the Son of man."

These verses are confusing, and are part of the reason we have so many different opinions about the Bible. The "hour" Jesus was referring to obviously wasn't the HOT. He literally said the hour is now... giving more proof that the HOT will be 3 & 1/2 years like his original hour. I would say he was telling his audience of prospective Anointed, that their eternal life, having life in themselves, depended upon their faith in him as Jehovah's mouthpiece. Those who heard this probably didn't know it, but I believe he was saying they were dead people walking, unless they placed their faith in him as their Mediator. Unfortunately, I have to agree to disagree with people who believe the resurrection started back then... and wait for Jesus to break the tie. I can't be an "I'm right, you're wrong" kind of person and expect people to respect me.

John 5:28-29 "Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment."

These verses are also confusing. Here, Jesus is referring to another "hour." I would say he's referring to the HOT, when the dead in Christ (Anointed) are resurrected to Heaven. When I read this, I see Jesus telling his disciples that the righteous who placed their faith in him as their Mediator will be resurrected in the 1st resurrection; those who knew the Truth, but still sinned against the Jehovah's Holy Spirit will be thrown into the Lake of Fire. Otherwise, it opens the door to people believing Jesus was saying people like Abraham, Moses and so many others would be part of the 1st resurrection... which we know isn't possible as Robert has pointed out, since it wasn't an option until Pentecost.
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I had always assumed that when Christ said the “…hour is now”, he referred to the time between himself as Christ and the tribulation, in much the same way as the psalmist saying that to Jehovah that a Thousand years is like an evening gone.”
 
MickHewitt said:
What resurrection started back then? Who believes the resurrection started back then: You have problems with Christ designating the term 'hours' to differing periods in time.
You have a whole wheelbarrow full of confusions. Calm down and put faith in what you have believed in so far and not be put off.
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Please re-read my post. If you disagree, please tell me where, and include your opinion. Thank you.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
I had always assumed that when Christ said the “…hour is now”, he referred to the time between himself as Christ and the tribulation, in much the same way as the psalmist saying that to Jehovah that a Thousand years is like an evening gone.”
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I have no idea what he meant… but the word hour stands out to me. The Hour of Test is 3 & 1/2 years as we all know. When Jesus said “the hour is now,” was he referring to his 1st 3 & 1/2 year ministry?
 
Carl said:
Please re-read my post. If you disagree, please tell me where, and include your opinion. Thank you.
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You say 'we have so many differing opinions of the bible' what opinions do you feel we are harmonious about? And we will take it from there? For surely if we have harmony on certain scriptures we have the building blocks to go further.
 
MickHewitt said:
What resurrection started back then? Who believes the resurrection started back then: You have problems with Christ designating the term 'hours' to differing periods in time.
You have a whole wheelbarrow full of confusions. Calm down and put faith in what you have believed in so far and not be put off.
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Mick… I love you, but sometimes you come off a little hostile and judgmental. I wasn’t claiming anyone here believes the resurrection has begun, but there are sects of Christianity that do… namely Jehovah’s Witnesses. They teach that the Anointed have been getting resurrected to Heaven since 1914. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Others believe the resurrection of the dead began 1,900 years ago.
 
MickHewitt said:
You say 'we have so many differing opinions of the bible' what opinions do you feel we are harmonious about? And we will take it from there? For surely if we have harmony on certain scriptures we have the building blocks to go further.
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Do you agree with every single Bible based opinion of our host? If not, then you and he share a different opinion about certain aspects of the Bible. That’s all I was saying.
 
Carl said:
Mick… I love you, but sometimes you come off a hostile and judgmental. I wasn’t claiming anyone here believes the resurrection has begun, but there are sects of Christianity that do… namely Jehovah’s Witnesses. They teach that the Anointed have been getting resurrected to Heaven since 1914. Please correct me if I’m wrong. Others believe the resurrection of the dead began 1,900 years ago.
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We here do not teach of an earlier resurrection, that has been substantiated. Put me on 'Ignore' and relieve me of privilege to your ear if you perceive my passionate replies as hostile? You insist on inquiring of my scriptural knowledge. You like me have been student of Jehovah's Watchman many years and you prevail here still but are not satisfied with the many teachings within? Sadly you are not understanding anything 1Tim6:4
 
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Carl said:
Do you agree with every single Bible based opinion of our host? If not, then you and he share a different opinion about certain aspects of the Bible. That’s all I was saying.
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I find what you are saying to be likened to a virus fighting against truth therefore I am selecting the ignore button If I was moderator I would bounce you. Bye Bye
 
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