How did David get complex answers from Jehovah in Samuel?

kirmmy

Well-known member
In my Bible reading I've been reading through 1st and 2nd Samuel. Fantastic, exciting part of the Bible with many timely examples and lessons...

But I have a question:

At the end of Samuel 22, Abiathar, the (apparently last surviving) priest, stays with David.

At Samuel chapter 23 David asks a bunch of complex questions of Jehovah through the priest and receives answers. (Not yes/no hence no umin thummim, I assume)

And if that doesn't convince, again:
1 Sam 30:6-8
However, his God Jehovah then gave him strength, and he said to the Priest AbiAthar (son of AhiMelech):‘Bring the sacred vest to me.’So AbiAthar came to David carrying the vest, and David asked Jehovah:‘Should I chase after them?’And Jehovah replied:‘Chase after them; for if you chase them, you’ll catch up with them and rescue [your people].’

And again:
2 Sam 2:1:
"Then when David asked where he should go, the Lord told him:‘To HebRon.’"

That isn't a simple yes/no answer but it could be reached by a long series of yes/no answers, I guess.

It seems that David is getting somewhat complex answers to his questions through the priest. This seems like Jehovah was communicating in some way rather directly. So, how exactly did the sacred vest work. I know it contained the umin and thummin but was more involved?

Thank you in advance for any insight you can give.
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
In my Bible reading I've been reading through 1st and 2nd Samuel. Fantastic, exciting part of the Bible with many timely examples and lessons...

But I have a question:

At the end of Samuel 22, Abiathar, the (apparently last surviving) priest, stays with David.

At Samuel chapter 23 David asks a bunch of complex questions of Jehovah through the priest and receives answers. (Not yes/no hence no umin thummim, I assume)

And if that doesn't convince, again:
1 Sam 30:6-8
However, his God Jehovah then gave him strength, and he said to the Priest AbiAthar (son of AhiMelech):‘Bring the sacred vest to me.’So AbiAthar came to David carrying the vest, and David asked Jehovah:‘Should I chase after them?’And Jehovah replied:‘Chase after them; for if you chase them, you’ll catch up with them and rescue [your people].’

And again:
2 Sam 2:1:
"Then when David asked where he should go, the Lord told him:‘To HebRon.’"

That isn't a simple yes/no answer but it could be reached by a long series of yes/no answers, I guess.

It seems that David is getting somewhat complex answers to his questions through the priest. This seems like Jehovah was communicating in some way rather directly. So, how exactly did the sacred vest work. I know it contained the umin and thummin but was more involved?

Thank you in advance for any insight you can give.
Found this on a web page

8. Philo, the learned contemporary of Josephus, represents the Urim and Thummim as two images of the two virtues or powers— δήλωσίν τε καὶ ἀλήθειαν. The full quotation is: Τὸ δὲ λογεῖον (the pectoral, or breastplate); τετράγωνον. διπλοῦν κατεσκευάζετο, ὡσανεὶ βάσις ἵνα δύο ἀρετὰς ἀγαλματοφορῇ (that they might carry the image of the two powers); δήλωσίν τε καὶ ἀλήθειαν (De Vita Mosis, lib. 3, p. 152, t. 2, ed. Mangey). He also uses the following words (De Monarch. lib. 2, p. 824; 1 Opp. 2, 226): Ε᾿πὶ τοῦ λογείου διττὰ ὑφάσματα καταποικίλλει, προσαγορεύων τὸ μὲν δήλωσιν, τὸ δ᾿ ἀλήθειαν. This statement of Philo...has been thought by many recent interpreters to be supported-by certain external evidence. It had been noticed by all the old commentators that a remarkable resemblance existed between the Urim and Thummim of the Jewish high-priest and the custom recorded by Elian (Var. Hist. 14, 347) of the Egyptian arch judge, who was always a priest venerable for age, learning, and probity, and who opened judicial proceedings by suspending, by a gold chain hung round his neck (comp. Ge 41:42), an image made of a sapphire stone, which was called Α᾿λήθεια, i.e. "truth," and with which Diodorus Siculus (1, 48,75) says he touched (προσθεῖτο) the party who had gained the cause. Certain traces of a similar custom among the Romans had also been adverted to — namely, that among the Vestal Virgins, at least she that was called Maxima, and who sat in judgment and tried causes as the Pontifex Maximus did, wore a similar antepectorale (Lipsius, De Vesta et Vtstalibus Syntagima [Antv. 1603, ap. Plant.]; cap. ult.). But these resemblances among the Egyptians were considered to have been derived by them from the Jews, in: consequence of their correspondence with them after Solomon's marriage with Pharaoh's daughter (Patrick, on Exodus 28:30). Subsequent discoveries, however, among the antiquities of Egypt lead to the conclusion that these resemblances belong to a much earlier period. Sir G. Wilkinson says the figure of Truth which the Egyptian arch judge suspended from his necks was in fact, a representation of the goddess who was worshipped under the dual, or double, character of Truth and Justice, and whose name, Thmei, the Egyptian or Coptic name of Justice or Truth (comp. the Greek θέμις), appears to have been the origin of the Hebrew Thummim a word," he remarks, "according to the Sept. translation, implying truth, and bearing a further analogy in its plural termination." He also remarks that the word Thummim, being a plural or dual word, corresponds to the Egyptian notion of the "two Truths." or the double capacity of this goddess. "This goddess," he says," frequently occurs in the sculptures in this double capacity, represented by two figures exactly similar," as in the above cut. "It is," he adds, "further observable that the chief priest of the Jews, who, before the election of a king, was also the judge of the nation, was alone entitled to wear 'this honorary badge. Does the touch of the successful litigant with the figure, by the Egyptian arch judge, afford any illustration of such passages as Isa 6:7; Jer 1:9; Es 5:2, or of those numerous instances in which touching is represented as the emblem or means of miraculous virtue?" Our authority for these Egyptian antiquities adds that the ancient (Sept.) interpretation of the Urim and Thummim, as signifying "light and truth." presents a striking analogy to the two figures of Re, the sun, and Thmei, truth, in the breastplate worn by the Egyptians. Here Thmei is represented, as she frequently is, by a single figure wearing two ostrich feathers, her emblem, because all the wing feathers of this bird were considered of equal length, and hence meant true or correct" (Anc. Egypt. [Lond. 1842], 2, 27, etc.; 5, 28, etc. See also other remarks on the dual offices of Thmei, in Gallery oaf Antiquities, selected from the British Museum by F. Arundale and J. Bonomi). Upon a view of the preceding facts, even so orthodox an antiquarian as Hengstenberg (Egypt and the Book of Moses, ch. 6) adopts Mr. Mede's opinion, that the Urim and Thummim were "things well known to the patriarchs," as divinely appointed means of inquiring of the Lord (Ge 25:22-23), suited to an infantine state of religion; that the originals were preserved, or the real use at least, among the Abrahamidae, and, at the reformation under Moses, were simply recognized; that the resemblances to them among the Egyptians were but imitations of this primeval mode of divine communication, as' were the heathen auspices of similar means originally connected with the sacrifice of animals

 

Sundial

Well-known member
Found this on a web page

8. Philo, the learned contemporary of Josephus, represents the Urim and Thummim as two images of the two virtues or powers— δήλωσίν τε καὶ ἀλήθειαν. The full quotation is: Τὸ δὲ λογεῖον (the pectoral, or breastplate); τετράγωνον. διπλοῦν κατεσκευάζετο, ὡσανεὶ βάσις ἵνα δύο ἀρετὰς ἀγαλματοφορῇ (that they might carry the image of the two powers); δήλωσίν τε καὶ ἀλήθειαν (De Vita Mosis, lib. 3, p. 152, t. 2, ed. Mangey). He also uses the following words (De Monarch. lib. 2, p. 824; 1 Opp. 2, 226): Ε᾿πὶ τοῦ λογείου διττὰ ὑφάσματα καταποικίλλει, προσαγορεύων τὸ μὲν δήλωσιν, τὸ δ᾿ ἀλήθειαν. This statement of Philo...has been thought by many recent interpreters to be supported-by certain external evidence. It had been noticed by all the old commentators that a remarkable resemblance existed between the Urim and Thummim of the Jewish high-priest and the custom recorded by Elian (Var. Hist. 14, 347) of the Egyptian arch judge, who was always a priest venerable for age, learning, and probity, and who opened judicial proceedings by suspending, by a gold chain hung round his neck (comp. Ge 41:42), an image made of a sapphire stone, which was called Α᾿λήθεια, i.e. "truth," and with which Diodorus Siculus (1, 48,75) says he touched (προσθεῖτο) the party who had gained the cause. Certain traces of a similar custom among the Romans had also been adverted to — namely, that among the Vestal Virgins, at least she that was called Maxima, and who sat in judgment and tried causes as the Pontifex Maximus did, wore a similar antepectorale (Lipsius, De Vesta et Vtstalibus Syntagima [Antv. 1603, ap. Plant.]; cap. ult.). But these resemblances among the Egyptians were considered to have been derived by them from the Jews, in: consequence of their correspondence with them after Solomon's marriage with Pharaoh's daughter (Patrick, on Exodus 28:30). Subsequent discoveries, however, among the antiquities of Egypt lead to the conclusion that these resemblances belong to a much earlier period. Sir G. Wilkinson says the figure of Truth which the Egyptian arch judge suspended from his necks was in fact, a representation of the goddess who was worshipped under the dual, or double, character of Truth and Justice, and whose name, Thmei, the Egyptian or Coptic name of Justice or Truth (comp. the Greek θέμις), appears to have been the origin of the Hebrew Thummim a word," he remarks, "according to the Sept. translation, implying truth, and bearing a further analogy in its plural termination." He also remarks that the word Thummim, being a plural or dual word, corresponds to the Egyptian notion of the "two Truths." or the double capacity of this goddess. "This goddess," he says," frequently occurs in the sculptures in this double capacity, represented by two figures exactly similar," as in the above cut. "It is," he adds, "further observable that the chief priest of the Jews, who, before the election of a king, was also the judge of the nation, was alone entitled to wear 'this honorary badge. Does the touch of the successful litigant with the figure, by the Egyptian arch judge, afford any illustration of such passages as Isa 6:7; Jer 1:9; Es 5:2, or of those numerous instances in which touching is represented as the emblem or means of miraculous virtue?" Our authority for these Egyptian antiquities adds that the ancient (Sept.) interpretation of the Urim and Thummim, as signifying "light and truth." presents a striking analogy to the two figures of Re, the sun, and Thmei, truth, in the breastplate worn by the Egyptians. Here Thmei is represented, as she frequently is, by a single figure wearing two ostrich feathers, her emblem, because all the wing feathers of this bird were considered of equal length, and hence meant true or correct" (Anc. Egypt. [Lond. 1842], 2, 27, etc.; 5, 28, etc. See also other remarks on the dual offices of Thmei, in Gallery oaf Antiquities, selected from the British Museum by F. Arundale and J. Bonomi). Upon a view of the preceding facts, even so orthodox an antiquarian as Hengstenberg (Egypt and the Book of Moses, ch. 6) adopts Mr. Mede's opinion, that the Urim and Thummim were "things well known to the patriarchs," as divinely appointed means of inquiring of the Lord (Ge 25:22-23), suited to an infantine state of religion; that the originals were preserved, or the real use at least, among the Abrahamidae, and, at the reformation under Moses, were simply recognized; that the resemblances to them among the Egyptians were but imitations of this primeval mode of divine communication, as' were the heathen auspices of similar means originally connected with the sacrifice of animals


And so the answer to kirmmy's question was...? 🤔
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
And so the answer to kirmmy's question was...? 🤔
Not a terribly specific one. I just thought philo would be one of the best sources to check with on it and that the closest thing to the urim and thumim is the I ching given the binary logic system of computers comes from it. Was surprised to see the similarities present in Egypt and Rome as well. I'll be entirely honest its not really an answer as far as a person getting specific information more complex than a yes or no from the urim and thumim but if you think of it as a sequence say 2 to the 10th power is 1024 as an example Moses or Aaron with the assistance of the holy spirit could have written interpretations of tens, hundreds or even thousands of meanings that people could consult based upon the outcome of the results from however many times the lots were cast.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But every decision by it is from Jehovah.

One school of thought is they glowed either to indicate a binary yes/no or to verify to those listening the high priest was genuinely communicating Jehovah's words.

I don't pretend to have either a proper answer or a correct one just pitching in.
 
Last edited:

White Stone

Well-known member
In my Bible reading I've been reading through 1st and 2nd Samuel. Fantastic, exciting part of the Bible with many timely examples and lessons...

But I have a question:

At the end of Samuel 22, Abiathar, the (apparently last surviving) priest, stays with David.

At Samuel chapter 23 David asks a bunch of complex questions of Jehovah through the priest and receives answers. (Not yes/no hence no umin thummim, I assume)

And if that doesn't convince, again:
1 Sam 30:6-8
However, his God Jehovah then gave him strength, and he said to the Priest AbiAthar (son of AhiMelech):‘Bring the sacred vest to me.’So AbiAthar came to David carrying the vest, and David asked Jehovah:‘Should I chase after them?’And Jehovah replied:‘Chase after them; for if you chase them, you’ll catch up with them and rescue [your people].’

And again:
2 Sam 2:1:
"Then when David asked where he should go, the Lord told him:‘To HebRon.’"

That isn't a simple yes/no answer but it could be reached by a long series of yes/no answers, I guess.

It seems that David is getting somewhat complex answers to his questions through the priest. This seems like Jehovah was communicating in some way rather directly. So, how exactly did the sacred vest work. I know it contained the umin and thummin but was more involved?

Thank you in advance for any insight you can give.
From Insight under Urim and Thummim:
May Have Been Lots. From the instances recorded in the Scriptures in which Jehovah was consulted by Urim and Thummim, it appears that the question was so framed that a “yes” or “no” answer, or at least a very brief and direct reply, could be given. In one instance (1Sa 28:6) the Urim is mentioned alone, evidently with the Thummim also understood to be included.
They might also interpret the yes/no to a detailed explanation, for a boost on morale. This is only my opinion though.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
Not a terribly specific one. I just thought philo would be one of the best sources to check with on it and that the closest thing to the urim and thumim is the I ching given the binary logic system of computers comes from it. Was surprised to see the similarities present in Egypt and Rome as well. I'll be entirely honest its not really an answer as far as a person getting specific information more complex than a yes or no from the urim and thumim but if you think of it as a sequence say 2 to the 10th power is 1024 as an example Moses or Aaron with the assistance of the holy spirit could have written interpretations of tens, hundreds or even thousands of meanings based upon the outcome of the results from however many times the lots were cast.

Proverbs 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap,
But every decision by it is from Jehovah.

One school of thought is they glowed either to indicate a binary yes/no or to verify to those listening the high priest was genuinely communicating Jehovah's words.

I don't pretend to have either a proper answer or a correct one just pitching in.
Yeah, everything can come down to binary. Yes, or no. Put enough yes and no question and answers together and you can answer anything. It just takes time. But I think something else is going on. Check out this scripture:

2 Sam 5:23

So David asked Jehovah once more, and the Lord replied:‘Don’t confront them; go around them to the other side of the Forest of Tears, and I’ll give them into your hands... 24Then, when you hear the sound of them marching from the Forest of Tears, you must attack! For I’ll lead you in your battle with the Philistines.’

It's hard for me to believe that this answer was put together from simple yes or no questions unless they were there all day asking yes/no questions. :)

"So Jehovah, do I attack from the hill of sorrow? Ah...that's a no.

How about the mount of papayas? Uh, no again.

River of pain? No.

Is it close to the trees of terror? Yes, Finally! Now we're getting somewhere!

There's a forest nearby, the forest of tears? YES!

Now are there any signs I should look out for to attack? Yes! Alright!

Of the five senses which is it...is it...":)

and on and on and on.

Possible but I think something else was going on. It could involve dreams if there was a night of sleep before the action. Or prophets tasked to help David but not mentioned.

1 Sam 28:6
“So he asked for [direction from Jehovah], but the Lord wouldn’t answer him in his dreams, give him any signs, or answer him through the prophets.”
 

The God Pill

Well-known member
Yeah, everything can come down to binary. Yes, or no. Put enough yes and no question and answers together and you can answer anything. It just takes time. But I think something else is going on. Check out this scripture:

2 Sam 5:23

So David asked Jehovah once more, and the Lord replied:‘Don’t confront them; go around them to the other side of the Forest of Tears, and I’ll give them into your hands... 24Then, when you hear the sound of them marching from the Forest of Tears, you must attack! For I’ll lead you in your battle with the Philistines.’

It's hard for me to believe that this answer was put together from simple yes or no questions unless they were there all day asking yes/no questions. :)

"So Jehovah, do I attack from the hill of sorrow? Ah...that's a no.

How about the mount of papayas? Uh, no again.

River of pain? No.

Is it close to the trees of terror? Yes, Finally! Now we're getting somewhere!

There's a forest nearby, the forest of tears? YES!

Now are there any signs I should look out for to attack? Yes! Alright!

Of the five senses which is it...is it...":)

and on and on and on.

Possible but I think something else was going on. It could involve dreams if there was a night of sleep before the action. Or prophets tasked to help David but not mentioned.

1 Sam 28:6
“So he asked for [direction from Jehovah], but the Lord wouldn’t answer him in his dreams, give him any signs, or answer him through the prophets.”
Maybe the stones cried out 😉
 

Medi-tator

Well-known member
Yeah, everything can come down to binary. Yes, or no. Put enough yes and no question and answers together and you can answer anything. It just takes time. But I think something else is going on. Check out this scripture:

2 Sam 5:23

So David asked Jehovah once more, and the Lord replied:‘Don’t confront them; go around them to the other side of the Forest of Tears, and I’ll give them into your hands... 24Then, when you hear the sound of them marching from the Forest of Tears, you must attack! For I’ll lead you in your battle with the Philistines.’

It's hard for me to believe that this answer was put together from simple yes or no questions unless they were there all day asking yes/no questions. :)

"So Jehovah, do I attack from the hill of sorrow? Ah...that's a no.

How about the mount of papayas? Uh, no again.

River of pain? No.

Is it close to the trees of terror? Yes, Finally! Now we're getting somewhere!

There's a forest nearby, the forest of tears? YES!

Now are there any signs I should look out for to attack? Yes! Alright!

Of the five senses which is it...is it...":)

and on and on and on.

Possible but I think something else was going on. It could involve dreams if there was a night of sleep before the action. Or prophets tasked to help David but not mentioned.

1 Sam 28:6
“So he asked for [direction from Jehovah], but the Lord wouldn’t answer him in his dreams, give him any signs, or answer him through the prophets.”

Mount of papayas sounds great. I happened to have eaten a papaya today LOL!
 
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