In the Image of God

Cristo

Well-known member
I've been half listening/reading this debate. One question. If as you say,

"Why didn't Jehovah know? Because it is impossible to know something that does not exist yet, that has not been created yet, that does not yet have objective reality or being. Cains action killing his brother did not exist yet.
God has chosen to limit his knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them. Of course he can read hearts, he can have faith that one will do what he thinks they will do, but only until the creation of the thought manifests into reality, can he know it. Once Cain created in his mind the desire to kill his brother, and allowed it to manifest, only then did that creation exist within reality."

Explain Genesis 25:23 "And the LORD said to her: “Two nations are in your womb, Two peoples shall be separated from your body; One people shall be stronger than the other, And the older shall serve the younger.”

Was Jacob manifesting reality in the womb?

I'm not sure I understand your question, so before I answer let me clarify if I am right. Are you asking how could Jehovah know two nations are in her womb, and that one would be stronger than the other etc...?

If that is your question, then the answer is that Jehovah knows the makeup of humankind. He knows what makes up the personality traits, and characteristics that a child will naturally carry because he himself created the way these things come to exist. Everybody is different, some make better leaders than others, some are more astute, some are more artsy fartsy, etc... etc. Obviously, Jehovah knew that Rebekah was carrying two sons within her, and he no doubt read their dispositions from his understanding of DNA, genetic influence, and other factors that we most certainly don't know about that exist within a womb during pregnancy(gravitational forces from the moon?).

Thus, its highly probable that the prophetic statement given to Rebekah by Jehovah was determined by his ability to read such things and understand the influence they would most certainly play within the boys lives.

I'll stop here because this might not be what you are asking.
 

Still Here

Active member
I'm not sure I understand your question, so before I answer let me clarify if I am right. Are you asking how could Jehovah know two nations are in her womb, and that one would be stronger than the other etc...?

If that is your question, then the answer is that Jehovah knows the makeup of humankind. He knows what makes up the personality traits, and characteristics that a child will naturally carry because he himself created the way these things come to exist. Everybody is different, some make better leaders than others, some are more astute, some are more artsy fartsy, etc... etc. Obviously, Jehovah knew that Rebekah was carrying two sons within her, and he no doubt read their dispositions from his understanding of DNA, genetic influence, and other factors that we most certainly don't know about that exist within a womb during pregnancy(gravitational forces from the moon?).

Thus, its highly probable that the prophetic statement given to Rebekah by Jehovah was determined by his ability to read such things and understand the influence they would most certainly play within the boys lives.

I'll stop here because this might not be what you are asking.
Let me try to answer Bill and you at the same time. Cristo's comment was

"God has chosen to limit his knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them."

Bill pointed out they were already struggling in the womb.

But the assertion was god doesn't have the 'knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them'. Some say Esau didnt' give up his birthright until he was about 15 years old. The bible says in verse 27 he was a man. Either way it was a long time later than being in the womb when God said "And the older shall serve the younger." Shall is not may, or perhaps or probably. Therefore He knew before the decision was made.

So, I agree with Bill that there was struggling in the womb. I also agree with Cristo when he says
He knows what makes up the personality traits, and characteristics that a child will naturally carry because he himself created the way these things come to exist. Everybody is different, some make better leaders than others, some are more astute, some are more artsy fartsy, etc... etc. Obviously, Jehovah knew that Rebekah was carrying two sons within her, and he no doubt read their dispositions from his understanding of DNA, genetic influence, and other factors that we most certainly don't know about that exist within a womb during pregnancy(gravitational forces from the moon?).

Not sure about the moon gravitional forces. But God definitely knew before choices were made by the ones involved. And that was my contention with your statement "God has chosen to limit his knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them."
 

Still Here

Active member
Let me try to answer Bill and you at the same time. Cristo's comment was

"God has chosen to limit his knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them."

Bill pointed out they were already struggling in the womb.

But the assertion was god doesn't have the 'knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them'. Some say Esau didnt' give up his birthright until he was about 15 years old. The bible says in verse 27 he was a man. Either way it was a long time later than being in the womb when God said "And the older shall serve the younger." Shall is not may, or perhaps or probably. Therefore He knew before the decision was made.

So, I agree with Bill that there was struggling in the womb. I also agree with Cristo when he says


Not sure about the moon gravitional forces. But God definitely knew before choices were made by the ones involved. And that was my contention with your statement "God has chosen to limit his knowledge(to know) of our choices until we make them."
As an addendum, I agree with most of the rest of your stance on knowledge. I can't say all because of 1/2 paying attention. LOL
It's just that this one sentence with until popped out to me.
 

I Like Pizza

Active member
We were created in God's image. An image is a reflection of something. Every choice we make is either a reflection of God's purpose, or it isn't. It is that simple. When the choice is in harmony with his purpose, we are reflecting back like we were created to, but when we don't reflect it, it is because the sin within us has prevented it. Sin blocks the reflection of love and creates death.

Because we were made in God's image, our very essence is endowed with the ability to create, in the fullest sense of the word. Everything you do is a creation, and I mean everything. You create subconsciously without even thinking about it. Your mind creates impulses to sustain life through the beating of the heart and taking of a breath, it is all done with a creation.

When you get up in the morning, you had to create the idea first and bring it to fruition by the action. You create the impulses in your mind first before any muscle moves in your body. You are creating right now by reading these words. Your eyes are creating nerve impulses that are sent to your brain to interpret them as sight. Your ears create impulses that your brain interprets as sounds. Every sense we have is a creation factory. I'm sure you get the point. Creation permeates every aspect of our existence. When we can no longer create anymore we die.

Of course, those creations are automatic; we don't need to think about them, they just create. We also have the ability to take our ideas and thoughts, which are a creation on a different level, and manifest them into existence. There is no limit to our creative abilities within this physical universe, for whatever it is we can think of, we can create it. Look around you, show me one thing that isn't created. We are creators, just as the God who created us to be in his image is.

“. . .Why, now there is nothing that they may have in mind to do that will be unattainable for them. . .” (Ge 11:6)​

This is where free will comes in. Free will is what gives us the ability to decide whether what we create is in line with God's purpose or isn't. God is the one who set the standard, and prior to the sin, all the angels used their free will to always create good. All they had knowledge of was good. They perfectly reflected back God's love by choosing to reflect his image back to him through their actions. It creates a homeostasis in which creation works for the survival of itself, and order is maintained to the glory of the creator. It's perfect.

Because its perfect, God expects perfection from his creation because they were created within it. Sin is the action of creating imperfection. It creates an imbalance and an entropy within creation, which is why it cannot be tolerated; it would destroy that which God created.

When Satan lied he was creating something that goes contrary to Gods purpose. Satan created sin, he is the manifester of it, and created something that did not exist prior. He is the father of it. He used his free will and chose to create something that cannot be sustained within a perfect environment; thus he is no longer perfect.

I am so thankful that we have a God that not only loves us so much that he created us, but that he understands that we cannot help but to create sin and offered us a way out. That he gave us a King, and redeemer of that imperfection, to eventually make us whole again, and to one day be able to only create that which is good, and loving, and sustaining for all eternity. I love Jehovah and his son Jesus Christ.
Interesting, I never thought about my body as creation factory lol. Heavy thoughts...
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Interesting, I never thought about my body as creation factory lol. Heavy thoughts...
If you look into the bacterial motor, you will find that your body actually IS a factory, continually manufacturing and replacing cells - piecing together DNA and constructing all manner of replenishment within the construct of the body. Even down to the means whereby thought is translated into action - even the reason why you like pizza is registered, recorded and maintained. The sad fact is that our body will even register that we like McFats or BurgerFats. It just goes to show the extent to which Jehovah has given His people choice. It’s undoubtably the closest Jehovah has come to condoning sin. Fortunately, he didn’t go as far as a Wendy’s otherwise there would be no hope for us.
 

I Like Pizza

Active member
If you look into the bacterial motor, you will find that your body actually IS a factory, continually manufacturing and replacing cells - piecing together DNA and constructing all manner of replenishment within the construct of the body. Even down to the means whereby thought is translated into action - even the reason why you like pizza is registered, recorded and maintained. The sad fact is that our body will even register that we like McFats or BurgerFats. It just goes to show the extent to which Jehovah has given His people choice. It’s undoubtably the closest Jehovah has come to condoning sin. Fortunately, he didn’t go as far as a Wendy’s otherwise there would be no hope for us.
Yeah I understand our body reproduces itself continually, i just never actually thought of breathing and heart pumping as something that is the consequence of a creation kinda thing. Or that when I decide to get out of bed it is because I created the idea to do it. I just never thought of it like that is all. I'm more of a pizza guy than a wendys though.
 
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