Iran/Israel and Daniel 11:29-32

[Jahnome]

I feel like this could be the fulfillment of the prophecy in Daniel.

“At the time appointed he will return and come against the south. But this time will not be as it was before, 30 for the ships of Kitʹtim will come against him, and he will be humbled. “He will go back and hurl denunciations against the holy covenant and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.”

If the US and Israel are forced back because of the pressure by the world, it would certainly be a humbling experience especially for Israel who is constantly starting problems in the mid east, and only became powerful because of the United States. If this is true, and it is the fulfillment of Daniel 11:29-31 then that means when this is over they will come against Jehovahs chosen ones and the holy covenant and remove the constant feature and put in place the disgusting thing.

Any thoughts?

 

[Watchman]

Zionism, Israel, was/is a creation of the British Empire. The British Empire drew up the map of virtually all the nations of the Middle East and South Asia. Jews and Arabs peacefully coexisted in the Middle East for centuries. But the British nurtured both Wahhabism and Zionism as a means to create conflict. Whatever influence the Jewish lobby has over the political system in the US is really just an extension of the British. The state of Israel is merely a disposable tool that the empire is using.

The real conflict doesn't have anything to do with Israel. The Anglo imperialists are determined to destroy the Russia/China alliance and the Belt and Road project. Not to be overlooked, Iran just joined the BRICS last year. Because of its strategic location, controlling the vital waterway through the Strait of Hormuz, connecting Asia and the Middle East and, by extension, Africa and Europe, Iran was slated for destruction more than 20 years ago. The Iranians know that. That is why they have been preparing for war for many years.

Most people do not know that Iran had a democracy and a Western-oriented society. After World War I, the British established a company called Anglo-Iranian Oil, which pumped petroleum out of Iran. However, after World War II, Iran nationalized its oil. That didn't go over very well with the people in London, so the Brits organized a regime change in 1953 and overthrew the president, Mohammad Mosaddegh, and established a puppet king, the Shah. Anglo Oil was back in business as British Petroleum, BP.

But the Shias pulled off their own regime change in the late 70s and gave the Shah the boot. The Lords of London have been trying to reacquire Iran ever since. That is why they armed and financed Saddam Hussein to attack Iran. They even gave him poison gas to kill off those pesky Iranians. In the end, though, the bloody eight-year war ended in a stalemate, so the empire went ahead and took out Saddam so they could set up military bases in Iraq, right on Iran's border. So, now London is using their old dumb giant, America, to try to topple the mullahs and get Iran out of the BRICS.

Except, now, there is another aspect to the Great Game. The Anglo financial system is beyond bankrupt. They know they cannot pull off another multi-trillion-dollar bailout of the derivatives market. The only thing they can do is blow it all up and get their Great Reset, which is what they intend to do. And war with Iran is just the ticket to blow out the financial system with $300 per barrel oil.

Have you read Jehovah Has Become King? There are a few chapters on the king of the north, London as Satan's throne, and the downfall of America. Seems like timely information.

 

[Jahnome]

Zionism, Israel, was/is a creation of the British Empire. The British Empire drew up the map of virtually all the nations of the Middle East and South Asia. Jews and Arabs peacefully coexisted in the Middle East for centuries. But the British nurtured both Wahhabism and Zionism as a means to create conflict. Whatever influence the Jewish lobby has over the political system in the US is really just an extension of the British. The state of Israel is merely a disposable tool that the empire is using.

The real conflict doesn't have anything to do with Israel. The Anglo imperialists are determined to destroy the Russia/China alliance and the Belt and Road project. Not to be overlooked, Iran just joined the BRICS last year. Because of its strategic location, controlling the vital waterway through the Strait of Hormuz, connecting Asia and the Middle East and, by extension, Africa and Europe, Iran was slated for destruction more than 20 years ago. The Iranians know that. That is why they have been preparing for war for many years.

Most people do not know that Iran had a democracy and a Western-oriented society. After World War I, the British established a company called Anglo-Iranian Oil, which pumped petroleum out of Iran. However, after World War II, Iran nationalized its oil. That didn't go over very well with the people in London, so the Brits organized a regime change in 1953 and overthrew the president, Mohammad Mosaddegh, and established a puppet king, the Shah. Anglo Oil was back in business as British Petroleum, BP.

But the Shias pulled off their own regime change in the late 70s and gave the Shah the boot. The Lords of London have been trying to reacquire Iran ever since. That is why they armed and financed Saddam Hussein to attack Iran. They even gave him poison gas to kill off those pesky Iranians. In the end, though, the bloody eight-year war ended in a stalemate, so the empire went ahead and took out Saddam so they could set up military bases in Iraq, right on Iran's border. So, now London is using their old dumb giant, America, to try to topple the mullahs and get Iran out of the BRICS.

Except, now, there is another aspect to the Great Game. The Anglo financial system is beyond bankrupt. They know they cannot pull off another multi-trillion-dollar bailout of the derivatives market. The only thing they can do is blow it all up and get their Great Reset, which is what they intend to do. And war with Iran is just the ticket to blow out the financial system with $300 per barrel oil.

Have you read Jehovah Has Become King? There are a few chapters on the king of the north, London as Satan's throne, and the downfall of America. Seems like timely information.

I didn't really ask for a history lesson, I can get that on the internet if I want to. Not trying to be rude, but what in the world does your answer have to do with my question regarding Daniel? You keep waiting for the 'peace and security' statement to come from 'they'. it seems like every day you wake up hoping to hear it, but before that phrase occurs the ships of Kittim will come against the king of the north. According to you that already occurred, but it seems like you are doing the same thing that the WT did in trying to interpret prophecy, and you have come up about 75 to 100 years to short in your answer. Maybe I'm wrong, and thats ok, but your answer in your book assumes that the king of the north has already been pushed back, and the ships of Kittim have already occurred. No offense, but this sounds like something similiar to what happened to the WT and 1914, in that you interpreted world events to fulfill certain prophecies. Certainly Satan didn't use just one deception to occur but many. If the United States/Israel are pushed back and dejected (Dan 11:30) to the current push on the Iranian nation, then it could mean that your interpretation of events is just speculation. Would you agree?

 

[Jahnome]

Zionism, Israel, was/is a creation of the British Empire. The British Empire drew up the map of virtually all the nations of the Middle East and South Asia. Jews and Arabs peacefully coexisted in the Middle East for centuries. But the British nurtured both Wahhabism and Zionism as a means to create conflict. Whatever influence the Jewish lobby has over the political system in the US is really just an extension of the British. The state of Israel is merely a disposable tool that the empire is using.

The real conflict doesn't have anything to do with Israel. The Anglo imperialists are determined to destroy the Russia/China alliance and the Belt and Road project. Not to be overlooked, Iran just joined the BRICS last year. Because of its strategic location, controlling the vital waterway through the Strait of Hormuz, connecting Asia and the Middle East and, by extension, Africa and Europe, Iran was slated for destruction more than 20 years ago. The Iranians know that. That is why they have been preparing for war for many years.

Most people do not know that Iran had a democracy and a Western-oriented society. After World War I, the British established a company called Anglo-Iranian Oil, which pumped petroleum out of Iran. However, after World War II, Iran nationalized its oil. That didn't go over very well with the people in London, so the Brits organized a regime change in 1953 and overthrew the president, Mohammad Mosaddegh, and established a puppet king, the Shah. Anglo Oil was back in business as British Petroleum, BP.

But the Shias pulled off their own regime change in the late 70s and gave the Shah the boot. The Lords of London have been trying to reacquire Iran ever since. That is why they armed and financed Saddam Hussein to attack Iran. They even gave him poison gas to kill off those pesky Iranians. In the end, though, the bloody eight-year war ended in a stalemate, so the empire went ahead and took out Saddam so they could set up military bases in Iraq, right on Iran's border. So, now London is using their old dumb giant, America, to try to topple the mullahs and get Iran out of the BRICS.

Except, now, there is another aspect to the Great Game. The Anglo financial system is beyond bankrupt. They know they cannot pull off another multi-trillion-dollar bailout of the derivatives market. The only thing they can do is blow it all up and get their Great Reset, which is what they intend to do. And war with Iran is just the ticket to blow out the financial system with $300 per barrel oil.

Have you read Jehovah Has Become King? There are a few chapters on the king of the north, London as Satan's throne, and the downfall of America. Seems like timely information.

Zionism, or at least the term itself, may have been created by the British Empire, but the idea of a home for Israelites has been in the heart of every displaced Israelite since 70ad. Of course we know that Judaism, as a religion, was abandoned by Jehovah when Jesus finished the law, which means that anybody who claims to be Jewish on religious grounds is not(because we know that the Jews mentioned in the bible in Revelation are spiritual Jews)

I think it is interesting how the bible seems to not only have a spiritual meaning, but also a physical one. Even Jesus said "Let your kingdom come, ON EARTH AS IT IS IN HEAVEN". This seems to allude to not only a spiritual meaning, but also to a physical one in the sense of physical things in our world manifesting in the same meaning of spiritual ones.

The perfect example of this is in Revelation 2:9 where it speaks of the synagogue of Satan who claim they are Jews but are not. Yes we understand that to be a spiritual prophecy, speaking of the holy ones, and those who will portray themselves as Jews(spritually), which we see in the GB of Jehovahs Witnesses. But just as Jesus said ON EARTH, as it IS in Heaven, which would seem to say that there is also a physical manifestation of this prophecy. The Ashkenazi Jews are doing the very same thing, saying they are Jews when they are not, but rather worship the god of their forefathers, who is not Jehovah. It's obvious by the actions they take being a warmongering nation, continuously seeking war with the surrounding nations.

I appreciate your insight into world events as they play along to biblical prophecy but I don't agree with your speculation in your book Jehovah has Become King.

 

[Watchman]

I didn't really ask for a history lesson, I can get that on the internet if I want to. Not trying to be rude, but what in the world does your answer have to do with my question regarding Daniel? You keep waiting for the 'peace and security' statement to come from 'they'. it seems like every day you wake up hoping to hear it, but before that phrase occurs the ships of Kittim will come against the king of the north. According to you that already occurred, but it seems like you are doing the same thing that the WT did in trying to interpret prophecy, and you have come up about 75 to 100 years to short in your answer. Maybe I'm wrong, and thats ok, but your answer in your book assumes that the king of the north has already been pushed back, and the ships of Kittim have already occurred. No offense, but this sounds like something similiar to what happened to the WT and 1914, in that you interpreted world events to fulfill certain prophecies. Certainly Satan didn't use just one deception to occur but many. If the United States/Israel are pushed back and dejected (Dan 11:30) to the current push on the Iranian nation, then it could mean that your interpretation of events is just speculation. Would you agree?

You could probably use a history lesson. And no, you cannot get it on the Internet. If you do not see the importance of the British king of the north creating Zionism and using it to further its geo-political goals, then there is no point in further discussion.

 

[Jahnome]

You could probably use a history lesson. And no, you cannot get it on the Internet. If you do not see the importance of the British king of the north creating Zionism and using it to further its geo-political goals, then there is no point in further discussion.

I don't understand. I've seen you say before that the British Empire is not British, and you asked me if I don't see the importance of the British king of the North creating Zionism etc...etc. If it isn't British then why do you keep using it? If you know it isn't British then what is it ruled by? The modern day people who call themselves Jews?

Have you read Jehovah Has Become King? There are a few chapters on the king of the north, London as Satan's throne, and the downfall of America. Seems like timely information.

Ok I read the chapters you referenced, but i'm still curious regarding the ships of Kittim dejecting the King of the North. This event happens prior to the King of the North coming against the holy covenant and removing the constant feature which hasn't happened yet. We know that once the constant feature is removed and the disgusting thing is placed there will be 1290 days, and happy is the one who arrives at the 1335 days. It seems like this is talking about the last days prior to Armageddon.

My question is: Because the ships of Kittim come against the North and deject him, it says that he then returns to his land and comes against the holy covenant. Since this happens in Daniel just prior to the constant feature being taken away, how is it that your interpretation of events has these things happening over 75 years ago?

 

[Watchman]

I don't understand. I've seen you say before that the British Empire is not British, and you asked me if I don't see the importance of the British king of the North creating Zionism etc...etc. If it isn't British then why do you keep using it? If you know it isn't British then what is it ruled by? The modern day people who call themselves Jews?

The point is, there is a distinction between the United Kingdom as a nation and the British Empire, which just so happens to be headquartered in London. The British Empire rules over Britain and many other nations, including Israel.

My question is: Because the ships of Kittim come against the North and deject him, it says that he then returns to his land and comes against the holy covenant. Since this happens in Daniel just prior to the constant feature being taken away, how is it that your interpretation of events has these things happening over 75 years ago?

The prophecy is not presented in a strictly sequential order. To illustrate the point, verse 36b gives a forward preview of the outcome and says of the king of the north: "And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place." This preview of the end is before the king of the north storms and floods over many nations, including the land of the decoration. With that in mind, going back to verse 31, it says: "And arms will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary, the fortress, and remove the constant feature. “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation."

According to no less an authority than Jesus, the disgusting thing that causes desolation will not stand in a holy place until immediately before the great tribulation. Furthermore, the 8th chapter of Daniel details the same development saying that the last king will invade the land of decoration, remove the constant feature, and throw down the sanctuary. And Daniel was informed by the angel that these things would occur in the final part of the denunciation, in the time of the end. But going back to the 11th chapter, if we insist on placing everything in sequential order, the removal of the constant feature takes place before the time of the end, that is because verse 35b places the cleansing and whitening as taking place "until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed."

I believe the Watchtower is right, insofar as identifying the United Nations as the disgusting thing. History testifies that immediately after WW2, the Anglo-American victors put the UN in place. I call it a placeholder. It is not functioning as a world government yet. But it is in place and ready to do the work of God when the time of the end begins.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I don't understand. I've seen you say before that the British Empire is not British, and you asked me if I don't see the importance of the British king of the North creating Zionism etc...etc. If it isn't British then why do you keep using it? If you know it isn't British then what is it ruled by? The modern day people who call themselves Jews?


Ok I read the chapters you referenced, but i'm still curious regarding the ships of Kittim dejecting the King of the North. This event happens prior to the King of the North coming against the holy covenant and removing the constant feature which hasn't happened yet. We know that once the constant feature is removed and the disgusting thing is placed there will be 1290 days, and happy is the one who arrives at the 1335 days. It seems like this is talking about the last days prior to Armageddon.

My question is: Because the ships of Kittim come against the North and deject him, it says that he then returns to his land and comes against the holy covenant. Since this happens in Daniel just prior to the constant feature being taken away, how is it that your interpretation of events has these things happening over 75 years ago?

I know nothing for certain about prophesy and less still about the ships of Kittim, I leave that to the seers that do. In my opinion - and it is only my opinion, it is nonsensical to concentrate on something that is indicative of a far greater meaning, if one does not first have a grounding of faith in the far more obvious and necessary overall message. The message is simple in that the conclusion of this system is imminent. I knew that long before I met the JWs. It does not really matter how that works out because ultimately it is our heart condition in faith and understanding of the word that will “save” us. Faith and understanding in what? The message of the Bible.

That In itself was understood (eventually) even by the apostles and they knew even less still than we do of prophesy in many respects. Yet they had the faith to die for their belief in the message. That much simply tells me what is of importance now, and it is not the knowledge of it, but the imbibing of it into the heart; living it, understanding it, and in our expression of agreement with it in our actions. This puts the figurative “ships of Kittim” in their place because in short, it doesn’t matter where they are or where they are going, but rather in what we do when whoever is in them arrives - figuratively speaking.

Also, what is also worth contemplating about the book in question, is that in my opinion, the prophesy described within it, and that is argued here on Robert’s site, is in support of the substance of faith, above that of 100% accuracy in what the prophesy means. Who can interpret prophesy and truly say it is correct? It is a picture of what is to come. Those with faith will excuse any such error if that proves to be the case. But we are given an indication of what to look for. Yet who can question with certainty beforehand?

But what does the explanation in Robert’s book actually achieve? A comprehensive prefigurement that actually is very well reasoned and arguably accurate because it has a product of faith in understanding of the Bible. That is unique in itself. It is ‘reasonable’. What more can one ask for?

Well, the book produces “fruit” in understanding the continuity of the message in an understandable way and answers the questions posed by religions, including watchtower. I have yet to see any member of these religions refute successfully the context it is written in. But it is what it produces that counts and which is a testable statement of truth. The principles are described - whether the ships of Kittim will prove to be ships, planes, armies, missiles hardly matters - what they prove to be will be surely identified by their cargo or outcomes. We shall see.

 

[I Like Pizza]

The prophecy is not presented in a strictly sequential order.

I disagree.

(Da 11:36) “. . .He will succeed, but only until the time of wrath is completed. For what has been determined will surely take place.”

In what way does this show that Daniels prophecy is not sequential? From what I can see from this scripture is it is merely affirming the success of what has already been told would happen, and that it will only be successful at a future time when the wrath is completed. It is just adding details not altering the chronology of the prophecy.

There is nothing in that verse to suggest the timeline of Daniels prophecy is not sequential. Actually, when we look at the verses BEFORE verse 36, there is NO REASON to not believe these things happen sequentially.

 

[Watchman]

I disagree.

(Da 11:36) “. . .He will succeed, but only until the time of wrath is completed. For what has been determined will surely take place.”

In what way does this show that Daniels prophecy is not sequential? From what I can see from this scripture is it is merely affirming the success of what has already been told would happen, and that it will only be successful at a future time when the wrath is completed. It is just adding details not altering the chronology of the prophecy.

There is nothing in that verse to suggest the timeline of Daniels prophecy is not sequential. Actually, when we look at the verses BEFORE verse 36, there is NO REASON to not believe these things happen sequentially.

In full, the verse you partially quoted says: "the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place." So, the prophecy at that point informs us that the king of the north will be successful to the finish. That is a preview of things to come. Obviously, he will not be successful in his campaign against God, but he will subjugate the king of the south during the time of the end.

However, if you want to talk about sequential events, the time of the end does not begin until the king of the south begins to push back against the king of the north, which begins in verse 40. So, verse 36 gives a preview of what will occur in the time of the end. That is what I mean by events are not strictly presented in chronological order.

If you are familiar with the prophecies, both the ten-horned beast of Daniel's 7th chapter and the seven-headed beast of Revelation that suffers a fatal wound but revives, speak arrogant blasphemies against God, just as verse 36 says of the king of the north, that "he will speak astonishing things" against the god of gods. Manifestly, these three prophecies are portraying the same event. This does not happen until after the beast with seven heads revives, or in the case of the beast with ten horns, of which three are plucked out by a little ascending horn, which is to occur in the time of the end. So, the king of the north will not speak these astonishing things against the God of gods until after he conquers the king of the south, again, during the time of the end.

 

[I Like Pizza]

In full, the verse you partially quoted says: "the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt himself and magnify himself above every god; and against the God of gods he will speak astonishing things. And he will prove successful until the denunciation comes to a finish; because what is determined must take place." So, the prophecy at that point informs us that the king of the north will be successful to the finish. That is a preview of things to come. Obviously, he will not be successful in his campaign against God, but he will subjugate the king of the south during the time of the end.

However, if you want to talk about sequential events, the time of the end does not begin until the king of the south begins to push back against the king of the north, which begins in verse 40. So, verse 36 gives a preview of what will occur in the time of the end. That is what I mean by events are not strictly presented in chronological order.

If you are familiar with the prophecies, both the ten-horned beast of Daniel's 7th chapter and the seven-headed beast of Revelation that suffers a fatal wound but revives, speak arrogant blasphemies against God, just as verse 36 says of the king of the north, that "he will speak astonishing things" against the god of gods. Manifestly, these three prophecies are portraying the same event. This does not happen until after the beast with seven heads revives, or in the case of the beast with ten horns, of which three are plucked out by a little ascending horn, which is to occur in the time of the end. So, the king of the north will not speak these astonishing things against the God of gods until after he conquers the king of the south, again, during the time of the end.

I only partially quoted it because you did in your answer to @Jahnome . That verse is not an event, but a descriptive element of the king of the north being successful, which does not alter the chronological order of the events in Daniel.

As I read your answers regarding the disgusting thing being placed there seems to be a discrepancy.

You state the United Nations was 'placed' right after WW2, which it was. The question is, was this THE prophetic event Daniel spoke about when he said:

(Da 11:31) “. . .And they will certainly put in place the disgusting thing that is causing desolation.”

How is it possible that this being 'put in place' occurred 75 years ago, when Daniel 12 states this:

(Da 12:11) ““And from the time that the constant [feature] has been removed and there has been a placing of the disgusting thing that is causing desolation, there will be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.”

How is it that the constant feature was removed over 75 years ago and then the disgusting thing(United Nations) was placed, when Daniel says that there will only be 1290 days, and then happy is the one who arrives at 1335 days? This strongly suggests that the removal of the constant feature and the placing of the disgusting thing occurs much closer to the time of the end, than 75 years ago, doesn't it?

I could be misunderstanding what you are saying too, so please forgive me if I'm reading it wrong, but you said this:

"I believe the Watchtower is right, insofar as identifying the United Nations as the disgusting thing. History testifies that immediately after WW2, the Anglo-American victors put the UN in place."