Jehovah Has Become King 4.0

Thank you, everyone, for your readers' comments. I even asked ChatGPT for a review. Here is what it said as a brief overview:

Based on my analysis of the uploaded PDF Jehovah Has Become King: A Primer for the Apocalypse (Fourth Edition) by Robert King, the work advances a tightly integrated set of theological, prophetic, and institutional themes. Although expansive in scope, the book is thematically coherent, centering on a single controlling claim: that mainstream Jehovah’s Witness eschatology—especially the doctrine of Christ’s invisible presence beginning in 1914—is itself a divinely permitted deception that precedes the true parousia.
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Bk Kevin said:
How I see it...
Flee to the mountains is to seek protection for oneself when you see the disgusting thing being put in place now the Roman army on their way to Jerusalem was a sign of the preliminary disgusting thing to flee to the mountains back in Jesus's day but for whatever reason the Romans turned back and came back in '70 CE and Destroy Jerusalem and all the inhabitants who became complacent by not heeding Jesus's prophetic warnings, now in today's day and age we do not see the disgusting thing literally standing in the Holy place just yet however we are seeing the preliminary disgusting thing standing in the Holy place in that the Watchtower track Society had a 10-year long relationship as an NGO with the United Nations back in the year 2000 to 2010 now although the Watchtower supposedly broke up that relationship with the United Nations they are obviously still on board with the disgusting thing to some degree or another due to the fact that the Watchtower track Society got on board with the United Nations and fully supported the covid-19 kill shot program, so in essence the disgusting thing is standing in the Holy place in that the Watchtower tract Society is certainly on board with the United Nations by following their instructions which is certainly causing desolation.

According to Matthew 24​

15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place+ (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.+
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Scriptures to go along with my thoughts.​

Daniel 11 ​

“He will go back and hurl denunciations* against the holy covenant+ and act effectively; and he will go back and will give attention to those leaving the holy covenant. 31 And arms* will stand up, proceeding from him; and they will profane the sanctuary,+ the fortress, and remove the constant feature.*+ “And they will put in place the disgusting thing that causes desolation.+

32 “And those who act wickedly against the covenant, he will lead into apostasy by means of smooth words.* But the people who know their God will prevail and act effectively. 33 And those having insight+ among the people will impart understanding to the many. And they will be made to stumble by sword and by flame, by captivity and by plundering, for some days. 34 But when they are made to stumble, they will be given a little help; and many will join with them by means of smooth speech.* 35 And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and a whitening+ until the time of the end; because it is yet for the time appointed.

What does profane the sanctuary mean?.
AI Overview tidbits
To "profane the sanctuary" means
to defile, desecrate, or treat something holy (like a temple, holy things, or God's presence) with contempt, irreverence, or secular purposes, essentially blurring the line between the sacred and the common. It involves actions contrary to God's law, such as idolatry, improper worship, or priests failing their duties, turning a holy place into something ordinary or corrupt.

Key aspects of profaning the sanctuary:
  • Defilement: Polluting or corrupting a sacred space or object.
  • Irreverence: Treating holy things with disrespect, as if they were common (e.g., the Sabbath, God's name).
  • Idolatry: Mixing worship of idols with worship of God, a severe offense.
  • Failure of Duty: Religious leaders (priests, prophets) failing to distinguish between holy and unholy, or allowing corrupt practices.
  • Misuse of God's Temple: In the New Testament, this extends to the body as a temple of the Holy Spirit, or unworthy participation in the Lord's Supper.

Examples from scripture:
  • Ezekiel 22:26: "Her priests have violated My law and profaned My holy things; they have not distinguished between the holy and the unholy...".
  • Ezekiel 23:39: The people sacrificed children to idols and then entered God's sanctuary the same day, mixing pagan acts with worship.
  • 1 Corinthians 3:16-17: Paul warns that destroying the temple (body) of God's Spirit defiles it.

Who profanes the sanctuary?.
AI Overview tidbits
Those who profane the sanctuary, according to the Bible (especially
Zephaniah 3:4, Zephaniah 3:4 (ASV) and Zephaniah 3:4 (KJV) ), are often the religious leaders (priests and prophets) who become treacherous, corrupt, and violate God's law, defiling the holy place through their actions, such as introducing idolatry or failing to uphold holiness. Specific examples include giving children to idols (like Molech) and then entering the temple, or priests failing to maintain purity and holy conduct.
Who does it?
  • Priests & Prophets: Spiritual leaders who become arrogant, treacherous, and dishonor God's law and presence.
  • Individuals: Anyone who commits grave sins (like child sacrifice to idols) and then enters the sanctuary as if nothing happened, defiling it with their hypocrisy.
How do they do it?
  • Violating the Law: Disregarding or actively breaking divine precepts, such as the rules for priests in Leviticus 21 (ESV).
  • Idolatry & Corruption: Introducing pagan practices, like sacrificing to Molech, within the temple itself, desecrating God's dwelling place.
  • Hypocrisy: Performing religious rituals while harboring deep sin, creating a spiritual contamination.
Examples in Scripture:
  • Zephaniah 3:4: "Her priests have polluted the sanctuary, they have done violence to the law".
  • Ezekiel 23:38-39: Describes people who sacrificed their children to idols and then defiled the sanctuary the same day.
  • Leviticus 20:3: States that giving one's child to Molech defiles the sanctuary and profanes God's name, punishable by death.
 
Jesus’ words point to two distinct fulfillments: a clear historical one in the first century and a final one still ahead. In the first century, the prophecy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, after years in which Jewish leaders had already aligned themselves with Rome to oppose Christ and persecute Christians (Luke 21:20–21; John 19:15). That fulfillment provides the pattern. The final fulfillment must therefore involve a truly global authority, not a symbolic or partial cooperation, because only such an authority could bring worldwide desolation and require a global response—something the Bible associates with the final political arrangement allowed to act before Jehovah intervenes (Daniel 11:44–45; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:12–14). Applying the prophecy prematurely to organizational errors or past political associations risks confusing moral compromise with the decisive act of desolation that Scripture says Jehovah Himself will permit and then judge in His appointed time (Matthew 13:30).

Glenn, in relation to your questions: Who today corresponds to “those in Judea”? What exactly are the “mountains”? From what specific event are they fleeing, and what concrete actions does that flight involve? Spiritually speaking, those in Judea could reasonably point to faithful Christians, and Jerusalem to God’s organized arrangement on earth, but Scripture shows that fleeing occurs after a decisive, unmistakable act of desolation—not during a period of disagreement, perceived compromise, or speculation. In the first-century pattern, the threat was external, visible, and deadly (Luke 21:20–21). Applying that pattern forward suggests that the final fulfillment would likewise involve a clear, global act by the 8th King/NWO against God’s organization, not an internal unraveling beforehand. We could interpret the “mountains” in relation to Isaiah 2:2–4 but it is just a thought as it is too early to know how it will be fulfilled.
 
BibleLover said:
Jesus’ words point to two distinct fulfillments: a clear historical one in the first century and a final one still ahead. In the first century, the prophecy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, after years in which Jewish leaders had already aligned themselves with Rome to oppose Christ and persecute Christians (Luke 21:20–21; John 19:15). That fulfillment provides the pattern. The final fulfillment must therefore involve a truly global authority, not a symbolic or partial cooperation, because only such an authority could bring worldwide desolation and require a global response—something the Bible associates with the final political arrangement allowed to act before Jehovah intervenes (Daniel 11:44–45; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:12–14). Applying the prophecy prematurely to organizational errors or past political associations risks confusing moral compromise with the decisive act of desolation that Scripture says Jehovah Himself will permit and then judge in His appointed time (Matthew 13:30).

Glenn, in relation to your questions: Who today corresponds to “those in Judea”? What exactly are the “mountains”? From what specific event are they fleeing, and what concrete actions does that flight involve? Spiritually speaking, those in Judea could reasonably point to faithful Christians, and Jerusalem to God’s organized arrangement on earth, but Scripture shows that fleeing occurs after a decisive, unmistakable act of desolation—not during a period of disagreement, perceived compromise, or speculation. In the first-century pattern, the threat was external, visible, and deadly (Luke 21:20–21). Applying that pattern forward suggests that the final fulfillment would likewise involve a clear, global act by the 8th King/NWO against God’s organization, not an internal unraveling beforehand. We could interpret the “mountains” in relation to Isaiah 2:2–4 but it is just a thought as it is too early to know how it will be fulfilled.
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Makes no sense because the 8th King will be ruling along with God’s Kingdom (including the Chosen Ones) and so faithful Christian’s will not be fleeing away from God’s organization while the 8th king is around.
 
BibleLover said:
Jesus’ words point to two distinct fulfillments: a clear historical one in the first century and a final one still ahead. In the first century, the prophecy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, after years in which Jewish leaders had already aligned themselves with Rome to oppose Christ and persecute Christians (Luke 21:20–21; John 19:15). That fulfillment provides the pattern. The final fulfillment must therefore involve a truly global authority, not a symbolic or partial cooperation, because only such an authority could bring worldwide desolation and require a global response—something the Bible associates with the final political arrangement allowed to act before Jehovah intervenes (Daniel 11:44–45; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:12–14). Applying the prophecy prematurely to organizational errors or past political associations risks confusing moral compromise with the decisive act of desolation that Scripture says Jehovah Himself will permit and then judge in His appointed time (Matthew 13:30).

Glenn, in relation to your questions: Who today corresponds to “those in Judea”? What exactly are the “mountains”? From what specific event are they fleeing, and what concrete actions does that flight involve? Spiritually speaking, those in Judea could reasonably point to faithful Christians, and Jerusalem to God’s organized arrangement on earth, but Scripture shows that fleeing occurs after a decisive, unmistakable act of desolation—not during a period of disagreement, perceived compromise, or speculation. In the first-century pattern, the threat was external, visible, and deadly (Luke 21:20–21). Applying that pattern forward suggests that the final fulfillment would likewise involve a clear, global act by the 8th King/NWO against God’s organization, not an internal unraveling beforehand. We could interpret the “mountains” in relation to Isaiah 2:2–4 but it is just a thought as it is too early to know how it will be fulfilled.
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I think the GB pushing the brothers and sisters to get injected was a clear and decisive act of desolation. I don't believe it was a "mistake" I feel the whole episode played, and continues to play a major part in Bible prophecy. All will become clearer soon enough..
 
BibleLover said:
Jesus’ words point to two distinct fulfillments: a clear historical one in the first century and a final one still ahead. In the first century, the prophecy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, after years in which Jewish leaders had already aligned themselves with Rome to oppose Christ and persecute Christians (Luke 21:20–21; John 19:15). That fulfillment provides the pattern. The final fulfillment must therefore involve a truly global authority, not a symbolic or partial cooperation, because only such an authority could bring worldwide desolation and require a global response—something the Bible associates with the final political arrangement allowed to act before Jehovah intervenes (Daniel 11:44–45; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:12–14). Applying the prophecy prematurely to organizational errors or past political associations risks confusing moral compromise with the decisive act of desolation that Scripture says Jehovah Himself will permit and then judge in His appointed time (Matthew 13:30).

Glenn, in relation to your questions: Who today corresponds to “those in Judea”? What exactly are the “mountains”? From what specific event are they fleeing, and what concrete actions does that flight involve? Spiritually speaking, those in Judea could reasonably point to faithful Christians, and Jerusalem to God’s organized arrangement on earth, but Scripture shows that fleeing occurs after a decisive, unmistakable act of desolation—not during a period of disagreement, perceived compromise, or speculation. In the first-century pattern, the threat was external, visible, and deadly (Luke 21:20–21). Applying that pattern forward suggests that the final fulfillment would likewise involve a clear, global act by the 8th King/NWO against God’s organization, not an internal unraveling beforehand. We could interpret the “mountains” in relation to Isaiah 2:2–4 but it is just a thought as it is too early to know how it will be fulfilled.
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“The final fulfillment must therefore involve a truly global authority, not a symbolic or partial cooperation, because only such an authority could bring worldwide desolation and require a global response—something the Bible associates with the final political arrangement allowed to act before Jehovah intervenes (Daniel 11:44–45; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:12–14). “

An authority in these days is not global but of the one with the most effective armaments. Comparatively speaking, the whole world is also against the Word even as we speak. Those who truly are seeking Jehovah are not only unnumbered, but those that are, are mostly blind and deaf at this time. To those that are awake, their members are, like the great crowd, irrelevant to the world leaders. One must understand the Truth to recognise the issues to hand and for those that do, we are told that they are “without number”.

After the exchange of warheads, what remains, even in power, steps into a vacuum, as is illustrated by the fact that the powers that be act as a lure against the kingdom. A choice - and a choice that requires resistance on our part. If one looks at the historical factors of post war periods during the last century we see dominance through the necessities of life, rather than the need to appearing to be benevolent. A good example is how Satan tempted Christ - food, dominance and faith.

The dominance of the final power is much the same, as again Christ pointed out in his final hours if the “cup” could be achieved another way. We will face a similar question. Christ was driven to that point of self inspection first and foremost for our understanding of the issues of the stake. We are pitted against ourselves and the circumstances are for the individual to decide between the Spirit in its entirety of understanding, and the flesh, in its lust for its own destiny.
 
Bk Kevin said:

Escrituras que acompañan mis pensamientos.​

Daniel 11​

Él regresará y lanzará denuncias * contra el pacto santo + y actuará con eficacia; y regresará y prestará atención a los que abandonan el pacto santo. 31  Y se levantarán armas * procedentes de él; y profanarán el santuario, + la fortaleza, y quitarán el rasgo constante. * + “Y pondrán en su lugar la cosa repugnante que causa desolación. +

32  Y a quienes obren con maldad contra el pacto, él los conducirá a la apostasía con palabras suaves. * Pero el pueblo que conoce a su Dios prevalecerá y actuará con eficacia. 33  Y los perspicaces del pueblo impartirán entendimiento a muchos. Y serán hechos tropezar por la espada y el fuego, por el cautiverio y el saqueo, durante algunos días. 34  Pero cuando sean hechos tropezar, recibirán un poco de ayuda; y muchos se unirán a ellos con palabras suaves. * 35  Y a algunos de los perspicaces se les hará tropezar, para realizar una obra de refinación a causa de ellos y para realizar una purificación y un blanqueamiento hasta el tiempo del fin; porque aún es para el tiempo señalado.

¿Qué significa profanar el santuario?
Información general sobre IA
"Profanar el santuario" significa
Profanar, deshonrar o tratar algo sagrado (como un templo, objetos sagrados o la presencia de Dios) con desprecio, irreverencia o fines seculares, difuminando así la línea entre lo sagrado y lo común. Implica acciones contrarias a la ley de Dios, como la idolatría, la adoración impropia o el incumplimiento de los deberes de los sacerdotes, convirtiendo un lugar sagrado en algo ordinario o corrupto.

Aspectos claves de la profanación del santuario:
  • Profanación : Contaminar o corromper un espacio u objeto sagrado.
  • Irreverencia : Tratar las cosas santas con falta de respeto, como si fueran comunes (por ejemplo, el sábado, el nombre de Dios).
  • Idolatría : Mezclar la adoración a los ídolos con la adoración a Dios, una ofensa grave.
  • Incumplimiento del deber : líderes religiosos (sacerdotes, profetas) que no distinguen entre lo sagrado y lo profano, o permiten prácticas corruptas.
  • Mal uso del templo de Dios : En el Nuevo Testamento, esto se extiende al cuerpo como templo del Espíritu Santo, o a la participación indigna en la Cena del Señor.

Ejemplos de las Escrituras:
  • Ezequiel 22:26 : "Sus sacerdotes violaron mi ley y profanaron mis santuarios; no hicieron distinción entre lo santo y lo profano...".
  • Ezequiel 23:39 : El pueblo sacrificaba niños a los ídolos y luego entraba al santuario de Dios el mismo día, mezclando actos paganos con la adoración.
  • 1 Corintios 3:16-17 : Pablo advierte que destruir el templo (cuerpo) del Espíritu de Dios lo contamina.

¿Quién profana el santuario?
Información general sobre IA
Los que profanan el santuario, según la Biblia (especialmente
Sofonías 3:4 ( RVR1960) y Sofonías 3:4 (RVR1960) son a menudo los líderes religiosos (sacerdotes y profetas) que se vuelven traicioneros, corruptos y violan la ley de Dios, profanando el lugar santo con sus acciones, como introducir la idolatría o no mantener la santidad. Ejemplos específicos incluyen entregar niños a ídolos (como Moloc ) y luego entrar al templo, o sacerdotes que no mantienen la pureza ni la santidad.
¿Quién lo hace?
  • Sacerdotes y profetas: líderes espirituales que se vuelven arrogantes, traidores y deshonran la ley y la presencia de Dios.
  • Individuos: Cualquiera que cometa pecados graves (como el sacrificio de niños a los ídolos) y luego entra en el santuario como si nada hubiera sucedido, contaminándolo con su hipocresía.
¿Cómo lo hacen?
  • Violar la Ley: Hacer caso omiso o quebrantar activamente los preceptos divinos, como las reglas para los sacerdotes en Levítico 21 (ESV) .
  • Idolatría y corrupción: Introducir prácticas paganas, como sacrificar a Moloc, dentro del mismo templo, profanando la morada de Dios.
  • Hipocresía: Realizar rituales religiosos albergando un pecado profundo, creando una contaminación espiritual.
Ejemplos en las Escrituras:
  • Sofonías 3:4 : "Sus sacerdotes han profanado el santuario, han violado la ley".
  • Ezequiel 23:38-39 : Describe a personas que sacrificaron a sus hijos a los ídolos y luego profanaron el santuario ese mismo día.
  • Levítico 20:3 : Establece que entregar el hijo a Moloc contamina el santuario y profana el nombre de Dios, y se castiga con la muerte.
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¿Hay algo más contaminante para la organización que el hecho de pagar con el silencio forzado y acuerdos económicos para que los niños abusados no hablen de los hechos?
Cuando el rasgo constante sea quitado la apostasía negará que Jesús a regresar y llevarán al silencio del resto ungido con la muerte para que la profecía se cumpla.
Para ambos tipos de actuaciones Jehová castiga con la muerte.
¿Quién se mantendrá en pie cuando Jesús venga?
 
Ana said:
¿Hay algo más contaminante para la organización que el hecho de pagar con el silencio forzado y acuerdos económicos para que los niños abusados no hablen de los hechos?
Cuando el rasgo constante sea quitado la apostasía negará que Jesús a regresar y llevarán al silencio del resto ungido con la muerte para que la profecía se cumpla.
Para ambos tipos de actuaciones Jehová castiga con la muerte.
¿Quién se mantendrá en pie cuando Jesús venga?
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Spanish to English
Is there anything more damaging to the organization than paying with forced silence and financial settlements to prevent abused children from speaking about the events?
When the constant feature is removed, apostasy will deny that Jesus will return and will silence the rest of the anointed ones with death so that the prophecy may be fulfilled.
For both types of actions, Jehovah punishes with death.
Who will be able to stand when Jesus comes?
 
Thank you for your thoughts. @BibleLover .

Being true to a_believer's two posts prompting and focusing a potential discussion,

here https://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/index.php?threads/jehovah-has-become-king-4-0.5580/post-149539 and
here https://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/index.php?threads/jehovah-has-become-king-4-0.5580/post-149556 ),

and the replies from others that have joined in, I am working on a framework to compare/contrast the two groups for my own edification that I can share here. I do not read AI generated text output and disregard any text I sense is generated by AI.

For me, as an analytical exercise, I want to compile the who, what, when, where, why, and how just based on the context of the two sets of verses. This includes learning Koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic to get a better sense of the quotes of Jesus. I know Robert has done an immense and inspiring amount of work, yet I need to make some things my own. To think for myself.

My own personal perspective is from that of a Rechabite/Ebed-melech who happens to have the best Father and oldest brother in Jehovah and Jesus Christ, respectively, preparing to be a sheep and ready to substitute if needed.

Do you intend for 'those of Judea' to mean 'those of Judah'? Words matter.

Does anyone else think we should move this discussion to its own thread or keep it here to keep this one active?
 
BibleLover said:
Jesus’ words point to two distinct fulfillments: a clear historical one in the first century and a final one still ahead. In the first century, the prophecy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, after years in which Jewish leaders had already aligned themselves with Rome to oppose Christ and persecute Christians (Luke 21:20–21; John 19:15). That fulfillment provides the pattern. The final fulfillment must therefore involve a truly global authority, not a symbolic or partial cooperation, because only such an authority could bring worldwide desolation and require a global response—something the Bible associates with the final political arrangement allowed to act before Jehovah intervenes (Daniel 11:44–45; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:12–14). Applying the prophecy prematurely to organizational errors or past political associations risks confusing moral compromise with the decisive act of desolation that Scripture says Jehovah Himself will permit and then judge in His appointed time (Matthew 13:30).

Glenn, in relation to your questions: Who today corresponds to “those in Judea”? What exactly are the “mountains”? From what specific event are they fleeing, and what concrete actions does that flight involve? Spiritually speaking, those in Judea could reasonably point to faithful Christians, and Jerusalem to God’s organized arrangement on earth, but Scripture shows that fleeing occurs after a decisive, unmistakable act of desolation—not during a period of disagreement, perceived compromise, or speculation. In the first-century pattern, the threat was external, visible, and deadly (Luke 21:20–21). Applying that pattern forward suggests that the final fulfillment would likewise involve a clear, global act by the 8th King/NWO against God’s organization, not an internal unraveling beforehand. We could interpret the “mountains” in relation to Isaiah 2:2–4 but it is just a thought as it is too early to know how it will be fulfilled.
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Well I believe the Watchtower is destined to fulfill that final prophecy as well because the Watchtower is following the same pattern as the Jewish leaders did back then by aligning themselves with the New World Order to the point of being complicit in murder with the covid-19 kill shot and then some, I mean if we are following a bible patterns then the Watchtower surely fits that criteria.


AI Overview tidbits,
The claims regarding the Watchtower Society's involvement in the COVID-19 pandemic, its alignment with global powers, and its alignment with prophetic patterns are topics of intense debate and criticism, particularly among former members and critics of the organization.

Based on available information and discussions:
  • COVID-19 Vaccine Stance: The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses stated that the decision to get vaccinated against COVID-19 was a "personal, conscientious decision". However, reports suggest that many members felt pressure to comply, as Bethel (headquarters) employees were required to be vaccinated, and data on vaccinated members was used in broadcasts, creating an environment where taking the vaccine was seen as the expected, "loyal" choice.
  • Allegations of Complicity: Critics argue that the organization, by urging compliance with government directives (based on Romans 13:1-8 regarding "superior authorities"), shares responsibility for injuries or deaths allegedly linked to vaccines. There are also, for instance, reports of high death rates within the community and arguments that the organization's pressure contradicted its own stance on individual conscience.
  • "New World Order" and Organizational Patterns: Critics compare the modern governing body to the first-century Jewish leaders, arguing that they have aligned with worldly authorities, such as the United Nations (serving as an NGO for a decade) and government health initiatives, rather than remaining neutral.
  • Conflicting Views: On the other hand, the official position of the Watchtower Society is that they have responsibly followed protective measures to protect the brotherhood, noting that many members have died from COVID-19 despite these efforts. Some members view the encouragement to take the vaccine as "practical advice" to keep them safe, rather than a mandate.
These views are part of a broader, often contentious, discussion about the influence of the Governing Body on the lives and health of Jehovah's Witnesses.
 
Bk Kevin said:
Well I believe the Watchtower is destined to fulfill that final prophecy as well because the Watchtower is following the same pattern as the Jewish leaders did back then by aligning themselves with the New World Order to the point of being complicit in murder with the covid-19 kill shot and then some, I mean if we are following a bible patterns then the Watchtower surely fits that criteria.


AI Overview tidbits,
The claims regarding the Watchtower Society's involvement in the COVID-19 pandemic, its alignment with global powers, and its alignment with prophetic patterns are topics of intense debate and criticism, particularly among former members and critics of the organization.

Based on available information and discussions:
  • COVID-19 Vaccine Stance: The Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses stated that the decision to get vaccinated against COVID-19 was a "personal, conscientious decision". However, reports suggest that many members felt pressure to comply, as Bethel (headquarters) employees were required to be vaccinated, and data on vaccinated members was used in broadcasts, creating an environment where taking the vaccine was seen as the expected, "loyal" choice.
  • Allegations of Complicity: Critics argue that the organization, by urging compliance with government directives (based on Romans 13:1-8 regarding "superior authorities"), shares responsibility for injuries or deaths allegedly linked to vaccines. There are also, for instance, reports of high death rates within the community and arguments that the organization's pressure contradicted its own stance on individual conscience.
  • "New World Order" and Organizational Patterns: Critics compare the modern governing body to the first-century Jewish leaders, arguing that they have aligned with worldly authorities, such as the United Nations (serving as an NGO for a decade) and government health initiatives, rather than remaining neutral.
  • Conflicting Views: On the other hand, the official position of the Watchtower Society is that they have responsibly followed protective measures to protect the brotherhood, noting that many members have died from COVID-19 despite these efforts. Some members view the encouragement to take the vaccine as "practical advice" to keep them safe, rather than a mandate.
These views are part of a broader, often contentious, discussion about the influence of the Governing Body on the lives and health of Jehovah's Witnesses.
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How does murder get smoothed over without a reckoning? It really is that serious. Serial killers pale in comparison.
 
SusanB said:
How does murder get smoothed over without a reckoning? It really is that serious. Serial killers pale in comparison.
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According to Biblelover the complicity to commit murder is nothing more than "organizational errors or past political associations.​

  • BibleLover Yesterday at 8:37 PM

    Jesus’ words point to two distinct fulfillments: a clear historical one in the first century and a final one still ahead. In the first century, the prophecy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, after years in which Jewish leaders had already aligned themselves with Rome to oppose Christ and persecute Christians (Luke 21:20–21; John 19:15). That fulfillment provides the pattern. The final fulfillment must therefore involve a truly global authority, not a symbolic or partial cooperation, because only such an authority could bring worldwide desolation and require a global response—something the Bible associates with the final political arrangement allowed to act before Jehovah intervenes (Daniel 11:44–45; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:12–14). Applying the prophecy prematurely to organizational errors or past political associations risks confusing moral compromise with the decisive act of desolation that Scripture says Jehovah Himself will permit and then judge in His appointed time (Matthew 13:30).

    Glenn, in relation to your questions: Who today corresponds to “those in Judea”? What exactly are the “mountains”? From what specific event are they fleeing, and what concrete actions does that flight involve? Spiritually speaking, those in Judea could reasonably point to faithful Christians, and Jerusalem to God’s organized arrangement on earth, but Scripture shows that fleeing occurs after a decisive, unmistakable act of desolation—not during a period of disagreement, perceived compromise, or speculation. In the first-century pattern, the threat was external, visible, and deadly (Luke 21:20–21). Applying that pattern forward suggests that the final fulfillment would likewise involve a clear, global act by the 8th King/NWO against God’s organization, not an internal unraveling beforehand. We could interpret the “mountains” in relation to Isaiah 2:2–4 but it is just a thought as it is too early to know how it will be fulfilled.​

 
The issue is not whether serious wrongdoing or even complicity in harm exists—Scripture never denies that such things can occur among God’s people—but whether that alone authorizes individuals to declare the moment of flight and separation. Jesus did not say, “When you see moral failure, leave,” but tied the flight to a specific, unmistakable act of desolation by an external power (Luke 21:20–21). That raises necessary questions: Is perceived complicity, however grave, the biblical signal to abandon God’s arrangement? When does the separation of wheat and weeds actually occur—now, or at the conclusion under Christ’s authority? And who is appointed as judge in that separation—individual Christians, or the Son to whom the Father has entrusted judgment? (Matthew 13:30, 37–43; John 5:22). Logically and scripturally, fleeing before the disgusting thing stands in place creates a contradiction: how can one flee from a desolation that has not yet occurred? If we flee now from God's organization, how can we flee when the desolation comes? If we flee now, where are the mountains?
The pattern of Scripture consistently points to endurance, discernment, and waiting on Jehovah’s timing, trusting that when the moment to flee arrives, it will be as clear and unavoidable as it was in the first century—not a matter of personal inference, but divine action (Matthew 24:15–16; Romans 12:19).


Bk Kevin said:

According to Biblelover the complicity to commit murder is nothing more than "organizational errors or past political associations.​

  • BibleLover Yesterday at 8:37 PM

    Jesus’ words point to two distinct fulfillments: a clear historical one in the first century and a final one still ahead. In the first century, the prophecy was fulfilled when Jerusalem was surrounded by Roman armies, after years in which Jewish leaders had already aligned themselves with Rome to oppose Christ and persecute Christians (Luke 21:20–21; John 19:15). That fulfillment provides the pattern. The final fulfillment must therefore involve a truly global authority, not a symbolic or partial cooperation, because only such an authority could bring worldwide desolation and require a global response—something the Bible associates with the final political arrangement allowed to act before Jehovah intervenes (Daniel 11:44–45; Revelation 13:7; Revelation 17:12–14). Applying the prophecy prematurely to organizational errors or past political associations risks confusing moral compromise with the decisive act of desolation that Scripture says Jehovah Himself will permit and then judge in His appointed time (Matthew 13:30).

    Glenn, in relation to your questions: Who today corresponds to “those in Judea”? What exactly are the “mountains”? From what specific event are they fleeing, and what concrete actions does that flight involve? Spiritually speaking, those in Judea could reasonably point to faithful Christians, and Jerusalem to God’s organized arrangement on earth, but Scripture shows that fleeing occurs after a decisive, unmistakable act of desolation—not during a period of disagreement, perceived compromise, or speculation. In the first-century pattern, the threat was external, visible, and deadly (Luke 21:20–21). Applying that pattern forward suggests that the final fulfillment would likewise involve a clear, global act by the 8th King/NWO against God’s organization, not an internal unraveling beforehand. We could interpret the “mountains” in relation to Isaiah 2:2–4 but it is just a thought as it is too early to know how it will be fulfilled.​

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BibleLover said:
The issue is not whether serious wrongdoing or even complicity in harm exists—Scripture never denies that such things can occur among God’s people—but whether that alone authorizes individuals to declare the moment of flight and separation. Jesus did not say, “When you see moral failure, leave,” but tied the flight to a specific, unmistakable act of desolation by an external power (Luke 21:20–21). That raises necessary questions: Is perceived complicity, however grave, the biblical signal to abandon God’s arrangement? When does the separation of wheat and weeds actually occur—now, or at the conclusion under Christ’s authority? And who is appointed as judge in that separation—individual Christians, or the Son to whom the Father has entrusted judgment? (Matthew 13:30, 37–43; John 5:22). Logically and scripturally, fleeing before the disgusting thing stands in place creates a contradiction: how can one flee from a desolation that has not yet occurred? If we flee now from God's organization, how can we flee when the desolation comes? If we flee now, where are the mountains?
The pattern of Scripture consistently points to endurance, discernment, and waiting on Jehovah’s timing, trusting that when the moment to flee arrives, it will be as clear and unavoidable as it was in the first century—not a matter of personal inference, but divine action (Matthew 24:15–16; Romans 12:19).
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I just think you are completely wrong and put the emphasis on what is not important as the Jews did with the temple, while forgetting the weightier matters. And the Watchtower was built by men although blessed for a time by Jehovah until they deviated. It is now an idol. Or perhaps I should say that as long as faithful anointed ones were associated with the Watchtower, Jehovah blessed it?

Do you spend as much time trying to talk sense into the GB or Elders that you do on this forum? Go where the serious sin is and then start barking. I pointed out clear error in your reasoning and you completely ignore it. IF you think the GB should apologize and admit error, then set the example because your argument was way off base. Enough said.

Jeremiah 7:4-11: “‘Do not put your trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah!” For if you truly reform your ways and actions; if you truly uphold justice between a man and his neighbor; if you do not oppress foreign residents, orphans, and widows; if you do not shed innocent blood in this place; and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm; then I will allow you to keep residing in this place, in the land I gave to your forefathers for all time. But you are putting your trust in deceptive words—it will bring absolutely no benefit. Can you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make sacrifices to Baʹal, and follow after gods you had not known, and then come and stand before me in this house that bears my name and say, “We will be saved,” despite your doing all these detestable things? Has this house that bears my name become a cave of robbers in your eyes? Here I have seen it for myself,’ declares Jehovah.”

Hosea 8:14: “Israel has forgotten his Maker and has built temples, And Judah has multiplied fortified cities. But I will send fire into his cities, And it will consume the towers of each one.”

Zechariah 6:12: “And say to him, ‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah.”’”

2 Corinthians 6:16-18: “And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: ‘I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing and I will take you in. And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”
 
En los tiempos de Jesús vemos una situación concreta, los líderes religiosos pertenecientes al pueblo de Jehová rechazando a su hijo, el Mesías prometido. Ese rechazo no sucedió de la noche a la mañana, a medida que Jesús demostraba que era el que tenía el poder más fue el rechazo de los que llevaban la delantera. Y fíjate si llevaban la delantera que hasta lo mataron.
El pueblo fue consciente de esa división que Jesús provocó pero los que no estuvieron cerca de Jesús y no creyeron hicieron caso omiso de la profecia porque o bien no la conocía o bien la influencia de los sumos sacerdotes era tan poderosa que simplemente les seguían.
Veo que hoy sucede lo mismo y veo que en el caso de muchos de los que estamos aquí además, la presencia de Jesús vuelve a ser un debate con respecto a la sociedad WT y comprender que Jesús no está reinando tienen una gran importancia y marca una gran diferencia.
No es posible abandonar la WT si uno no cree que la apostasía llegará primero. Para eso debes colocar al enemigo dentro del pueblo Santo y ese no es el caso de la mayoría de los Testigos. No he pensado en ningún momento que el pueblo de Jehová se daría cuenta antes de tiempo. Por lo tanto discutir si hay que irse o no ahora o después es algo absurdo, la profecía dice justo lo que está sucediendo.
Por otro lado no toda la profecía tiene porque realizada exactamente de la misma forma que en tiempos en los que Jesús estuvo en la tierra. Tampoco el resultado será el mismo pues en esta ocasión Jesús saldrá totalmente victorioso y el número completo de los sellados se habrá realizado y la profecía irá avanzando.
Los apóstoles sintieron la necesidad como todos los que les seguían de no creer ni seguir con las instrucciones de los Sumos Sacerdotes y seguían perteneciendo los que adoraban a Jehová. De hecho eso es lo que define a los amadores de Dios, pues son aquellos que le adoran en espíritu y en verdad.
Personalmente y por respeto a la verdad, no puedo reunirme en un Salón del reino y engañar sobre mis creencias. Me tomo la verdad de una manera muy seria y se que Jehová también lo hace.
Seamos honestos, cuando la WT caiga y Jesús venga a inspeccionar, muchos pensarán el evento es parte de la gran tribulación, otros odiaran haberla seguido y ya sabemos después la sucesión de los acontecimientos.
Aquí lo importante es no perder la fe y aguantar hasta el final. Que importa lo que pensamos sobre determinados aspectos, si fuese posible el abandono de la WT antes de tiempo el pueblo de Jehová ya se habría refinado, nosotros solo lo hemos entendido antes y eso es algo que agradezco y mantiene muy viva la esperanza, pero no condiciona mi fe. Al igual que tampoco la condiciona el lugar desde el que adore a mi Dios.
Jesús nos responde a tantas cuestiones con sus conversaciones... Juan 4: 19-Le dijo la mujer: "Señor, percibo que eres profeta. 20 Nuestros antepasados adoraron en esta montaña; pero ustedes dicen que en Jerusalén es el lugar donde se debe adorar". 21 Jesús le dijo: "Créeme, mujer: La hora viene cuando ni en esta montaña ni en Jerusalén adorarán ustedes al Padre. 22 Ustedes adoran lo que no conocen; nosotros adoramos lo que conocemos, porque la salvación se origina de los judíos. 23 No obstante, la hora viene, y ahora es, en que los verdaderos adoradores adorarán al Padre con espíritu y con verdad, porque, en realidad, el Padre busca a los de esa clase para que lo adoren. 24 Dios es un Espíritu, y los que lo adoran tienen que adorarlo con espíritu y con verdad”. 25 La mujer le dijo: "Yo sé que el Mesías viene, el que se llama Cristo. Cuando llegue ese, él nos declarará todas las cosas abiertamente". 26 Jesús le dijo: “Yo, el que habla contigo, soy ese”.
 
SusanB said:
I just think you are completely wrong and put the emphasis on what is not important as the Jews did with the temple, while forgetting the weightier matters. And the Watchtower was built by men although blessed for a time by Jehovah until they deviated. It is now an idol. Or perhaps I should say that as long as faithful anointed ones were associated with the Watchtower, Jehovah blessed it?


Jeremiah 7:4-11: “‘Do not put your trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah!” For if you truly reform your ways and actions; if you truly uphold justice between a man and his neighbor; if you do not oppress foreign residents, orphans, and widows; if you do not shed innocent blood in this place; and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm; then I will allow you to keep residing in this place, in the land I gave to your forefathers for all time. But you are putting your trust in deceptive words—it will bring absolutely no benefit. Can you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make sacrifices to Baʹal, and follow after gods you had not known, and then come and stand before me in this house that bears my name and say, “We will be saved,” despite your doing all these detestable things? Has this house that bears my name become a cave of robbers in your eyes? Here I have seen it for myself,’ declares Jehovah.”

Hosea 8:14: “Israel has forgotten his Maker and has built temples, And Judah has multiplied fortified cities. But I will send fire into his cities, And it will consume the towers of each one.”

Zechariah 6:12: “And say to him, ‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah.”’”

2 Corinthians 6:16-18: “And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: ‘I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing and I will take you in. And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”
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SusanB "Do you spend as much time trying to talk sense into the GB or Elders that you do on this forum? Go where the serious sin is and then start barking. I pointed out clear error in your reasoning and you completely ignore it. IF you think the GB should apologize and admit error, then set the example because your argument was way off base. Enough said.​

@Bible lover.
That's Watchtower think for you -deny 'deny 'deny and never apologize - never admit that they are wrong , they don't know the meaning of empathy or mercy as Jesus had explained it - they would prefer you just do as they say totally rejecting your conscious choice because that's what egotistic narcissistic unloving people do, in essence it's a form of Satan worship!. Far as I'm concerned my job here is done because I now feel that this website here is no longer up building and has gone to the dogs as it were because Robert King has allowed such brainwashing propaganda from people like Bible lover to go unchecked . PS you guys if you're going to stay on this site please follow the Apostle Paul's advice and make sure of everything and please remember not to put your trust in Nobles .
 
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GlennH said:
Thank you for your thoughts. @BibleLover .

Being true to a_believer's two posts prompting and focusing a potential discussion,

here https://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/index.php?threads/jehovah-has-become-king-4-0.5580/post-149539 and
here https://e-jehovahs-witnesses.com/index.php?threads/jehovah-has-become-king-4-0.5580/post-149556 ),

and the replies from others that have joined in, I am working on a framework to compare/contrast the two groups for my own edification that I can share here. I do not read AI generated text output and disregard any text I sense is generated by AI.

For me, as an analytical exercise, I want to compile the who, what, when, where, why, and how just based on the context of the two sets of verses. This includes learning Koine Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic to get a better sense of the quotes of Jesus. I know Robert has done an immense and inspiring amount of work, yet I need to make some things my own. To think for myself.

My own personal perspective is from that of a Rechabite/Ebed-melech who happens to have the best Father and oldest brother in Jehovah and Jesus Christ, respectively, preparing to be a sheep and ready to substitute if needed.

Do you intend for 'those of Judea' to mean 'those of Judah'? Words matter.

Does anyone else think we should move this discussion to its own thread or keep it here to keep this one active?
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Here's my first stab at this to foster discussion.

I am starting with Mt 24:15,16 in the NWT(2013)

Who: Jesus, the disciples, Daniel the prophet, the reader, those in Judea, you; anyone else?
What: the disgustiing thing that causes desolation, a holy place, the mountains, Daniel's writings; anything else?
When: After Jesus' last visit to the temple before his last Passover, after answering the questions posed by his disciples to him in private, you catch sight; any other time?
Where: Mount of Olives, Judea; any other place?
Why: Jesus' counsel based upon his answers to the disciples earlier questions posed in private('Therefore, ...'); any other reasons?
How: spoke of, use discernment, fleeing; any other actions?

So, Jesus in Mt 24:4-14 gives answers to the disciples' questions posed in Mt 24:3. Given that he has answered, he then gives a priority and instructions in Mt 24:15-22 for the period of time before the great tribulation starts to the disciples, the reader, and those in Judea.

Jesus is speaking to the disciples, telling them what to be watching for and where to watch for it. He then tells another group of people, those of Judea, to begin fleeing to the mountains when his disciples catch sight of the thing spoken of by Daniel in a holy place. In Mt 24:17-20 he describes what beginning to flee means.

Questions this exercise brings to mind:

1. What was the disgusting thing that causes desolation spoken of by Daniel? He didn't say "written of by Daniel", so I am looking for quotes of Daniel instead of the references given in the NWT. Or did he mean spoken about in Daniel by the angels? Who is the reader?

2. Is there a difference between 'a holy place' and 'the holy place'?

3. Catching sight of means get a glimpse, when it enters into your field of vision, right?

4. The reader is to use discernment - is this text added by Matthew or included in the quote by Jesus? Why the reader and not the disciples or those in Judea? Is this directed to the reader of Daniel's writings or to the reader of Matthew's Gospel? A quick glance at Proverbs 2 is where I find 'discernment' first mentioned in that book. Implying to me that the reader better be relying on Jehovah. Is there another interpretation?

5. The mountains - looking at Mt 24:17-20, is it simply praying at that moment and being guided by Jehovah's spirit, sort of like get ready to be rescued?

6. Why does the NWT glossary contain a definition for Judah and not Judea?

There are a lot of moving parts in these two verses and interpretation does not appear as straightforward as I previously reckoned.

An illustration: Me and some other managers asked our boss some questions. He gives us the answers and tells us what to be looking for and where. There is a secretary there recording this conversation because the boss wants it down in writing. The secretary points a future reader to a reference manual and that the reader should be experienced in certain matters. The boss then issues instructions to a group that may or may not include us managers. The managers infer that they are responsible for passing on the instructions to the last group.

So, back to a_believer's question about fleeing, based upon Mt 24:17-20, this fleeing is immediate, without hesitation, almost instinctual and is instruction for those of Judea at an individual, personal moment.

All mistakes are mine. Be interested in further discussion. Gonna move on to Re 6 group and its actions.
 
SusanB said:
I just think you are completely wrong and put the emphasis on what is not important as the Jews did with the temple, while forgetting the weightier matters. And the Watchtower was built by men although blessed for a time by Jehovah until they deviated. It is now an idol. Or perhaps I should say that as long as faithful anointed ones were associated with the Watchtower, Jehovah blessed it?

Do you spend as much time trying to talk sense into the GB or Elders that you do on this forum? Go where the serious sin is and then start barking. I pointed out clear error in your reasoning and you completely ignore it. IF you think the GB should apologize and admit error, then set the example because your argument was way off base. Enough said.

Jeremiah 7:4-11: “‘Do not put your trust in deceptive words and say, “This is the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah, the temple of Jehovah!” For if you truly reform your ways and actions; if you truly uphold justice between a man and his neighbor; if you do not oppress foreign residents, orphans, and widows; if you do not shed innocent blood in this place; and if you do not follow other gods to your own harm; then I will allow you to keep residing in this place, in the land I gave to your forefathers for all time. But you are putting your trust in deceptive words—it will bring absolutely no benefit. Can you steal, murder, commit adultery, swear falsely, make sacrifices to Baʹal, and follow after gods you had not known, and then come and stand before me in this house that bears my name and say, “We will be saved,” despite your doing all these detestable things? Has this house that bears my name become a cave of robbers in your eyes? Here I have seen it for myself,’ declares Jehovah.”

Hosea 8:14: “Israel has forgotten his Maker and has built temples, And Judah has multiplied fortified cities. But I will send fire into his cities, And it will consume the towers of each one.”

Zechariah 6:12: “And say to him, ‘This is what Jehovah of armies says: “Here is the man whose name is Sprout. He will sprout from his own place, and he will build the temple of Jehovah.”’”

2 Corinthians 6:16-18: “And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: ‘I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people. Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing and I will take you in. And I will become a father to you, and you will become sons and daughters to me,’ says Jehovah, the Almighty.”
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The passages you cite are important, but their timing and context matter. Hosea prophesied in the 8th century BCE, yet Jehovah’s judgment on Israel unfolded decades later, using Assyria and later Babylon as external instruments—showing that even when corruption was real, Jehovah did not act impulsively, nor did individuals initiate the separation themselves (Hosea 8:14; 2 Kings 17:6). That historical pattern is consistent: Jehovah allows time, sends warnings, and then employs external powers (Assyria, Babylon, Rome) to execute judgment.

As for 2 Corinthians 6:16–18, the immediate context is separation from unbelievers and idolatrous practices, not an instruction to abandon God’s arrangement or to declare an organization apostate ahead of Christ’s judgment (2 Corinthians 6:14–15). Paul repeatedly urged Christians to remain patient within the congregation, correcting and enduring one another, while leaving final judgment to Jehovah (Galatians 6:1, Romans 12:19). These scriptures support vigilance and moral clarity but they also warn against outrunning Jehovah’s timetable or assuming a role Scripture consistently reserves for Him.
 
Ana said:
En los tiempos de Jesús vemos una situación concreta, los líderes religiosos pertenecientes al pueblo de Jehová rechazando a su hijo, el Mesías prometido. Ese rechazo no sucedió de la noche a la mañana, a medida que Jesús demostraba que era el que tenía el poder más fue el rechazo de los que llevaban la delantera. Y fíjate si llevaban la delantera que hasta lo mataron.
El pueblo fue consciente de esa división que Jesús provocó pero los que no estuvieron cerca de Jesús y no creyeron hicieron caso omiso de la profecia porque o bien no la conocía o bien la influencia de los sumos sacerdotes era tan poderosa que simplemente les seguían.
Veo que hoy sucede lo mismo y veo que en el caso de muchos de los que estamos aquí además, la presencia de Jesús vuelve a ser un debate con respecto a la sociedad WT y comprender que Jesús no está reinando tienen una gran importancia y marca una gran diferencia.
No es posible abandonar la WT si uno no cree que la apostasía llegará primero. Para eso debes colocar al enemigo dentro del pueblo Santo y ese no es el caso de la mayoría de los Testigos. No he pensado en ningún momento que el pueblo de Jehová se daría cuenta antes de tiempo. Por lo tanto discutir si hay que irse o no ahora o después es algo absurdo, la profecía dice justo lo que está sucediendo.
Por otro lado no toda la profecía tiene porque realizada exactamente de la misma forma que en tiempos en los que Jesús estuvo en la tierra. Tampoco el resultado será el mismo pues en esta ocasión Jesús saldrá totalmente victorioso y el número completo de los sellados se habrá realizado y la profecía irá avanzando.
Los apóstoles sintieron la necesidad como todos los que les seguían de no creer ni seguir con las instrucciones de los Sumos Sacerdotes y seguían perteneciendo los que adoraban a Jehová. De hecho eso es lo que define a los amadores de Dios, pues son aquellos que le adoran en espíritu y en verdad.
Personalmente y por respeto a la verdad, no puedo reunirme en un Salón del reino y engañar sobre mis creencias. Me tomo la verdad de una manera muy seria y se que Jehová también lo hace.
Seamos honestos, cuando la WT caiga y Jesús venga a inspeccionar, muchos pensarán el evento es parte de la gran tribulación, otros odiaran haberla seguido y ya sabemos después la sucesión de los acontecimientos.
Aquí lo importante es no perder la fe y aguantar hasta el final. Que importa lo que pensamos sobre determinados aspectos, si fuese posible el abandono de la WT antes de tiempo el pueblo de Jehová ya se habría refinado, nosotros solo lo hemos entendido antes y eso es algo que agradezco y mantiene muy viva la esperanza, pero no condiciona mi fe. Al igual que tampoco la condiciona el lugar desde el que adore a mi Dios.
Jesús nos responde a tantas cuestiones con sus conversaciones... Juan 4: 19-Le dijo la mujer: "Señor, percibo que eres profeta. 20 Nuestros antepasados adoraron en esta montaña; pero ustedes dicen que en Jerusalén es el lugar donde se debe adorar". 21 Jesús le dijo: "Créeme, mujer: La hora viene cuando ni en esta montaña ni en Jerusalén adorarán ustedes al Padre. 22 Ustedes adoran lo que no conocen; nosotros adoramos lo que conocemos, porque la salvación se origina de los judíos. 23 No obstante, la hora viene, y ahora es, en que los verdaderos adoradores adorarán al Padre con espíritu y con verdad, porque, en realidad, el Padre busca a los de esa clase para que lo adoren. 24 Dios es un Espíritu, y los que lo adoran tienen que adorarlo con espíritu y con verdad”. 25 La mujer le dijo: "Yo sé que el Mesías viene, el que se llama Cristo. Cuando llegue ese, él nos declarará todas las cosas abiertamente". 26 Jesús le dijo: “Yo, el que habla contigo, soy ese”.
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Spanish to English
In Jesus' time, we see a specific situation: the religious leaders belonging to Jehovah's people rejecting his son, the promised Messiah. This rejection didn't happen overnight; as Jesus demonstrated his power, the rejection from those in positions of leadership intensified. And they were so determined in their opposition that they even killed him. The people were aware of the division that Jesus caused, but those who were not close to Jesus and did not believe disregarded the prophecy, either because they were unaware of it or because the influence of the high priests was so powerful that they simply followed them. I see that the same thing is happening today, and I see that for many of us here, the presence of Jesus is once again a subject of debate within the Watchtower Society, and understanding that Jesus is not yet reigning is of great importance and makes a significant difference.
It's not possible to leave the Watchtower if you don't believe that the apostasy will come first. For that to happen, you would have to place the enemy within God's holy people, and that's not the case for most Witnesses. I haven't thought for a moment that Jehovah's people would realize this ahead of time. Therefore, discussing whether to leave now or later is absurd; the prophecy says exactly what is happening.
On the other hand, not all prophecy has to be fulfilled in exactly the same way as in the times when Jesus was on earth. Nor will the outcome be the same, because this time Jesus will emerge completely victorious, and the full number of the sealed will have been reached, and the prophecy will continue to unfold.
The apostles felt the need, like all those who followed them, not to believe or follow the instructions of the High Priests, and they continued to belong to those who worshipped Jehovah. In fact, that is what defines them.
The lovers of God are those who worship Him in spirit and in truth.
Personally, and out of respect for the truth, I cannot meet in a Kingdom Hall and deceive others about my beliefs. I take the truth very seriously, and I know that Jehovah does too.
Let's be honest, when the Watchtower falls and Jesus comes to inspect, many will think the event is part of the great tribulation, others will regret having followed it, and we already know the sequence of events that will follow.
The important thing here is not to lose faith and to endure to the end. What does it matter what we think about certain aspects, if it were possible to leave the Watchtower before the appointed time, Jehovah's people would have already been refined. We have simply understood it sooner, and that is something I am grateful for and that keeps my hope very much alive, but it does not condition my faith. Just as the place from which I worship my God does not condition it either.
Jesus answers so many of our questions through his conversations... John 4:19-26: The woman said to him, “Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. 20 Our ancestors worshiped on this mountain, but you say that the place where people must worship is in Jerusalem.” 21 Jesus said to her, “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father. 22 You worship what you do not know; we worship what we know, for salvation comes from the Jews. 23 But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him. 24 God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.” 25 The woman said to him, “I know that the Messiah is coming (he who is called Christ). When he comes, he will tell us all things.” 26 Jesus said to her, “I who speak to you am he.”
 
BibleLover said:
The issue is not whether serious wrongdoing or even complicity in harm exists—Scripture never denies that such things can occur among God’s people—but whether that alone authorizes individuals to declare the moment of flight and separation. Jesus did not say, “When you see moral failure, leave,” but tied the flight to a specific, unmistakable act of desolation by an external power (Luke 21:20–21). That raises necessary questions: Is perceived complicity, however grave, the biblical signal to abandon God’s arrangement? When does the separation of wheat and weeds actually occur—now, or at the conclusion under Christ’s authority? And who is appointed as judge in that separation—individual Christians, or the Son to whom the Father has entrusted judgment? (Matthew 13:30, 37–43; John 5:22). Logically and scripturally, fleeing before the disgusting thing stands in place creates a contradiction: how can one flee from a desolation that has not yet occurred? If we flee now from God's organization, how can we flee when the desolation comes? If we flee now, where are the mountains?
The pattern of Scripture consistently points to endurance, discernment, and waiting on Jehovah’s timing, trusting that when the moment to flee arrives, it will be as clear and unavoidable as it was in the first century—not a matter of personal inference, but divine action (Matthew 24:15–16; Romans 12:19).
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Watchtower think...

https://twitter.com/x/status/2012961325211668874
 
"When you see the disgusting thing" , Im not intelligent, but I can see the disgusting thing standing in Jehovahs house..Does it take a ton of bricks to fall on your head to see that??? who is supposed to see The Disgusting Thing First??? Brothers and sisters are leaving the WT for the sake of their sanity. "Flee to the mountains "away from the nutters...Its doesnt take a clinical pysk. to see that the Covid mandates ended the preaching work, or their shot mandate from the WT were against the Christ who said Go and preach!!! or take the shot we give.. I wonder how much money the WT actually made supporting the Covid shot??? At this point to most important thing is what we do , be loyal to Jehovah. Bible Lover you need to read your Bible instead of preaching to the choir...Obviously you haven't read Jehovahs judgements on the house of God.
 
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