Jehovah Has Become King 4.0

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

You touched on something very important. At heart, the question is this: how do we know whether a decision we made was the right one, and whether Jehovah is blessing it? In the world, success is often measured by visible things—money, influence, independence, recognition. But Jesus showed that Jehovah measures very differently. He said that true disciples are identified, not by claims or convictions, but by their fruits (Matthew 7:15–23).

That invites honest self-reflection. If Jehovah is blessing a course, it should increasingly produce the fruitage of the spirit—love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faith, mildness, and self-control (Galatians 5:22–23). If, on the other hand, a course gradually cultivates the works of the flesh—bitterness, hostility, pride, divisions, or resentment—that should give us pause (Galatians 5:19–21).

So it can be healthy to ask ourselves some simple but searching questions: Since leaving God's organization, have I become a better Christian? Do I show more love for others, including those who disagree with me? Have I helped anyone draw closer to Jehovah? Am I more humble and teachable? When someone challenges my view with the Bible, do I examine the Scriptures carefully, or do I react by attacking the person instead of the message insulting and slandering him?
Do my decisions reflect consideration for others, or mainly for myself showing a selfish attitude?
For instance, have you thought why Jehovah instructed the first-century Christians to remain in Jerusalem (the holy place) until Rome as the “disgusting thing” actually appeared? He wanted the apostles and disciples to continue preaching there, so that as many as possible could hear, respond, and later flee when the time came (Luke 21:20–21). Those who listened were saved. In a similar way, remaining within Jehovah’s arrangement allows Christians to help new ones learn the truth and gain salvation, rather than leaving them without guidance.

Finally, it is worth considering the practical side of Jesus’ command to preach the good news throughout the earth. A global work—reaching distant places, translating material into hundreds of languages, and supporting believers worldwide—has always required organization. The Bible itself shows that Jehovah consistently uses organized arrangements to accomplish His purpose (1 Corinthians 14:33, 40). Discernment, then, is not only about making a decision once, but about continually examining whether that decision is producing the kind of spiritual fruit Jehovah values.

I like to think I'm still "progressing" in my spiritual life I wouldn't be here if I wasn't concerned about it. For a certainty I know I'm more teachable due to all the new things I've learned here and the way I've had to rearrange and undo "old" Watchtower teachings. And I also think I must be more humble cos when I try to talk to other brothers and sisters about the REAL truth they react as if I've gone crazy or turned apostate and I just "suck it up" for Jehovah's sake. Is that showing humility? On the other hand, I might just be fooling myself

 

[Jahrule]

BL, While I do not know for sure if the disgusting thing has appeared yet, it is ultimately up to each person to decide whether they want to stay associated with the Watchtower organization. If staying feels right for you and seems to fit Jehovah's will in your case, then that may be where He has placed you for now.

That said, the way many JWs view the organization as essential for salvation is itself a serious problem. Whether someone stays in or steps out, both paths come with difficulties. Outside, it can be harder to stay spiritually grounded without regular fellowship. Inside, the corporate structure and the claim to have a monopoly on truth create their own heavy burdens. Jehovah is building a nation of faithful ones, not just running a religious business.

I am convinced Jehovah can and does use people both inside and outside the city gates. It is not out of character for Him. Fellowship matters, but it is not locked to them the way Watchtower teaches.

So many quotes, so little substance. It’s a common trait seen within watchtower: rhetoric but without substance. It’s not a good thing to excel in. It’s sterile. Has no beneficial outcome above control of the unwary.

I believe it's called Gish Galloping on the internets.

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

Expecting him simply to abandon that work or “go back” as if nothing happened is not realistic

So you agree that Robert is doing Jehovah's work then? If so, then maybe Jehovah wants us here to listen and learn, maybe Jehovah actually brought us here? I can't prove he did, but I can't prove he didn't either, but in my heart of hearts I'm convinced he did, and I can't shake off that conviction, no matter how often I log on to the meetings or watch the JW TV channel, in fact, listening to the meetings and watching the TV channel is actually having the opposite effect on me, it's convincing me more and more that coming here was the right thing to do, and the more you try and make me feel guilty the more I wonder WHY?

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

That's right sister discernment is everything, and that's what Jesus told us to do use our discernment!, and you are alive and well because you heeded those warnings...by using your discernment and making a conscious choice.

Yes, alive and well indeed but surrounded by so many sick and dead , but obedient brothers and sisters who for whatever reason did not discern, and it's heartbreaking

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

I appreciate the emphasis on faith and conscience, but this still avoids the central issue: timing and authority.

All the examples cited—Abram leaving Ur, Noah building the ark, Christians fleeing Jerusalem—share one decisive element: Jehovah directly instructed them to act. They did not act merely because conditions were troubling or because corruption was evident. They acted because Jehovah spoke.

Scripture does not say, “Leave when corruption troubles your conscience.” Jesus was specific:

“When you catch sight of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place… then let those in Judea begin fleeing.” (Matthew 24:15–16)

The first-century Christians lived for decades under a corrupt priesthood, hypocrisy, and injustice—yet they remained until Jehovah provided a clear signal. Faith was not shown by leaving early, but by enduring uncertainty until Jehovah acted.

Appeals to conscience (Romans 14:23; James 4:17) cannot override revealed instruction. Otherwise, opposite actions—leaving early and staying—can both be labeled “faith,” which drains the term of any objective meaning. Scripture shows that Jehovah reveals His purpose before decisive action is required (Amos 3:7).

Finally, remaining in an organization that is acknowledged to be doomed also involves uncertainty. The difference is that Scripture shows Jehovah expects His people to remain until He gives direction, not to run ahead of Him.

So the question is not whether someone may leave in good conscience, but:
Where does Jehovah instruct His people to leave before He gives the signal?

But what makes you think that Jehovah hasn't ALREADY given the signal? Maybe he HAS, but not everyone saw it?

 

[Patricia]

@BibleLover you keep insisting that the believers in Judea didn't leave prematurely, that they waited for the appearance of the disgusting thing . You don't know that, it's simply not true. For whatever reason, and there was more than one, many left Jerusalem-- and/or Judea. And when one makes these kinds of statements that are easily shown to be false or exaggerated, folks like me become irritated.
Have you ever read the book of Acts? You might want to start around chapter 8, after Stephen was stoned. Here's just a sample: " On that day a great persecution arose against the congregation that was in Jerusalem; all except the apostles were scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Sumaria."
Even some apostles left : "Philip, for one, went down to the city of Sumaria..." "There was in Damascus a certain disciple named Ananias..." and on it goes. There were plenty who left Judea way before 66- 70AD. for whatever reason. And there is absolutely no scripture that tells us that the faithful stayed until they saw the disgusting thing. And Jesus didn't command anyone to stay until they saw it but was giving a warning that when they did, they'd best run. That's how I read it. Maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right. We'll all find out soon enough.
I think this topic of when to leave, whether to leave, whether to stay or should we go back has been beat to death. I vote we stop beating this poor dead horse.

An afterthought, I decided not to return to the congregation NOT because I thought I had seen the disgusting thing. (I continue to listen in via phone tie-in) I've seen many a disgusting thing in the congregation but that's not it. I simply cannot sit with my mouth shut when the idolatry and false teachings comes from the platform. I can't sing those songs or say amen to those prayers. And I can't stand the fake love that everyone says they have. I cannot/will not be silent but I also don't want to be a disruption. There are a few in the congregation that are aware of my opinions and I'm content to leave it at that. Unless and until Jehovah shows me otherwise.

 

[Jahrule]

@BibleLover you keep insisting that the believers in Judea didn't leave prematurely, that they waited for the appearance of the disgusting thing . You don't know that, it's simply not true. For whatever reason, and there was more than one, many left Jerusalem-- and/or Judea. And when one makes these kinds of statements that are easily shown to be false or exaggerated, folks like me become irritated.
Have you ever read the book of Acts? You might want to start around chapter 8, after Stephen was stoned. Here's just a sample: " On that day a great persecution arose against the congregation that was in Jerusalem; all except the apostles were scattered throughout the regions of Judea and Sumaria."
Even some apostles left : "Philip, for one, went down to the city of Sumaria..." "There was in Damascus a certain disciple named Ananias..." and on it goes. There were plenty who left Judea way before 66- 70AD. for whatever reason. And there is absolutely no scripture that tells us that the faithful stayed until they saw the disgusting thing. And Jesus didn't command anyone to stay until they saw it but was giving a warning that when they did, they'd best run. That's how I read it. Maybe I'm wrong maybe I'm right. We'll all find out soon enough.
I think this topic of when to leave, whether to leave, whether to stay or should we go back has been beat to death. I vote we stop beating this poor dead horse.

An afterthought, I decided not to return to the congregation NOT because I thought I had seen the disgusting thing. (I continue to listen in via phone tie-in) I've seen many a disgusting thing in the congregation but that's not it. I simply cannot sit with my mouth shut when the idolatry and false teachings comes from the platform. I can't sing those songs or say amen to those prayers. And I can't stand the fake love that everyone says they have. I cannot/will not be silent but I also don't want to be a disruption. There are a few in the congregation that are aware of my opinions and I'm content to leave it at that. Unless and until Jehovah shows me otherwise.

Not to mention they wouldn't even allow me to be baptized because I didn't attend enough meetings. They essentially held my baptism hostage in the name of procedure. Watchtower has clearly overstepped their position. Don't get me wrong. I have nothing but love for my brother and sisters, even if they see me as an apostate. But the organization itself has become a snare for JWs much the same way the law became a snare for the Jews.

 

[BibleLover]

So you agree that Robert is doing Jehovah's work then? If so, then maybe Jehovah wants us here to listen and learn, maybe Jehovah actually brought us here? I can't prove he did, but I can't prove he didn't either, but in my heart of hearts I'm convinced he did, and I can't shake off that conviction, no matter how often I log on to the meetings or watch the JW TV channel, in fact, listening to the meetings and watching the TV channel is actually having the opposite effect on me, it's convincing me more and more that coming here was the right thing to do, and the more you try and make me feel guilty the more I wonder WHY?

It is important to clearly acknowledge that Brother Robert King has done extensive and valuable work in unveiling Bible prophecies and helping many of us gain a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. His analysis has encouraged serious Bible study, sharpened discernment, and exposed assumptions that needed to be examined. For that, many—including myself—are grateful.

That said, our situation can be better understood through the situation in the first century.

John the Baptist was unquestionably sent by Jehovah (Luke 1:16–17; John 1:6). His assignment was prophetic and preparatory, not organizational. He called Israel to repentance for violations of the Mosaic Law and warned of impending judgment, yet he did not establish a new religious arrangement, nor did he instruct faithful Jews to abandon Israel as Jehovah’s people (Matthew 3:1–12).

Those who listened to John did not leave the Jewish system. They remained within it while correcting their course and preparing their hearts to recognize the Messiah when he appeared (John 1:29–37).
During Jesus’ ministry—and even after Pentecost—early Christians continued functioning within the existing Jewish framework. They gathered as congregations in homes (Acts 2:46; Acts 5:42), yet they also continued attending the temple and synagogues (Acts 3:1; Acts 21:26). This arrangement persisted although many christians suffered persecution and expulsion, exactly as Jesus had foretold (John 16:2).

Significantly, Jesus did not instruct his followers to leave Jerusalem or the Jewish system simply because corruption existed. Instead, he gave a specific sign—the appearance of the “disgusting thing”—and only then were they to flee (Matthew 24:15–16; Luke 21:20–21). Acting before that sign would not have been faith; it would have been running ahead of Jehovah.

This helps frame Brother King’s work correctly. His role can be compared to that of a watchman—exposing error, calling for repentance, and clarifying prophecy (Ezekiel 33:7). But a watchman does not replace the city, nor does his warning constitute a new organizational arrangement.

Scripture shows that the actual separation will occur in the future, during the harvest, under Christ’s direct authority and led by the anointed (Matthew 13:39–43; Revelation 14:14–16). Until Jehovah initiates that moment, there is no biblical instruction for a voluntary, preemptive departure.

In short, preparatory warning and organizational departure are not the same thing. Jehovah has always separated His people by clear instruction and precise timing, not by individual conviction alone (1 Corinthians 14:33).

Until Christ acts decisively, the biblical pattern is to remain, discern, repent, and prepare—not to run ahead of Jehovah.

 

[Ana]

@BibleLover insistes en que los creyentes de Judea no se fueron prematuramente, que esperaron la aparición de esa cosa repugnante. No lo sabes, simplemente no es cierto. Por alguna razón, y hubo más de una, muchos abandonaron Jerusalén y/o Judea. Y cuando uno hace este tipo de afirmaciones, que fácilmente se demuestran falsas o exageradas, a la gente como yo nos irrita.
¿Has leído alguna vez el libro de los Hechos? Quizás quieras empezar por el capítulo 8, después de la lapidación de Esteban. Aquí tienes un ejemplo: «Aquel día se desató una gran persecución contra la congregación que estaba en Jerusalén; todos, excepto los apóstoles, se dispersaron por las regiones de Judea y Sumaría ».
Incluso algunos apóstoles se fueron: «Felipe, por ejemplo, descendió a la ciudad de Sumaria ...». «Había en Damasco un discípulo llamado Ananías...», y así sucesivamente. Muchos abandonaron Judea mucho antes del 66-70 d. C., por la razón que fuera. Y no hay ninguna escritura que nos diga que los fieles se quedaron hasta ver aquella cosa repugnante. Y Jesús no les ordenó a nadie que se quedaran hasta que la vieran, sino que les advirtió que, cuando lo vieran, mejor huyeran. Así lo interpreto. Quizás me equivoque, quizás tenga razón. Pronto lo sabremos.
Creo que este tema de cuándo irse, si irse, si quedarse o regresar se ha tratado hasta el cansancio. Voto por que dejemos de darle vueltas a este tema.

Después de pensarlo un poco, decidí no volver a la congregación, no porque creyera haber visto algo repugnante. (Sigo escuchando por teléfono). He visto muchas cosas repugnantes en la congregación, pero no es eso. Simplemente no puedo quedarme callado cuando la idolatría y las falsas enseñanzas provienen de la plataforma. No puedo cantar esas canciones ni decir amén a esas oraciones. Y no soporto el falso amor que todos dicen tener. No puedo/no quiero quedarme callado, pero tampoco quiero ser una distracción. Hay algunos en la congregación que conocen mis opiniones y me conformo con dejarlo así. A menos que Jehová me muestre lo contrario.

Deja que me deleite con tu cálido ronroneo. Me vas a hecer dormir muy pero que muy bien!!!

 

[BibleLover]

Patricia, I think part of the tension here comes from mixing different biblical categories that the Scriptures themselves keep distinct. Let me explain what I mean, because Acts 8 does not contradict Jesus’ warning—it actually confirms it when read carefully.

First, you are absolutely right that many Christians left Jerusalem and Judea early, especially after Stephen’s death. Acts 8:1 explicitly says that persecution scattered believers throughout Judea and Samaria. Jesus had already prepared them for that when he said: “When they persecute you in one city, flee to another” (Matthew 10:23). Leaving because of persecution is not the same thing as leaving because of the sign of judgment Jesus later described. That distinction matters.

The prophecy Jesus gave at Matthew 24:15–16 and Luke 21:20–21 was not about persecution. It was about imminent destruction. The “disgusting thing” standing in a holy place referred, in its first fulfillment, to the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem in 66 CE (Luke 21:20). That sign applied specifically to Jerusalem, because that is where the temple—the holy place—was located. When the Romans unexpectedly withdrew, faithful Christians recognized the sign and fled. History confirms that they escaped to Pella and were spared when Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 CE.

So yes—many Christians left earlier for many reasons. But that does not mean the prophecy had already been fulfilled. It means Jehovah preserved his people through persecution until the moment came when judgment was imminent. Those who survived to see the sign obeyed Jesus’ instruction and fled.

Second, Jesus’ prophecy itself shows that this was more than a local, one-time event. He explicitly connected it to the conclusion of the system of things and used language that extends beyond Judea (Matthew 24:21, 30–31). The preaching work he mentioned—“this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth” (Matthew 24:14)—was not fulfilled globally in the first century (Romans 15:19 describes the Roman world, not the entire earth). That global aspect is being fulfilled now, which indicates that Jesus’ words have a greater, final fulfillment still ahead.

In that final fulfillment, the threat is not a local army but a global political power—the “eighth king” of Revelation 17:8–14. That explains why Revelation later echoes Jesus’ warning with a worldwide call: “Get out of her, my people” (Revelation 18:4). Just as in the first century, Jehovah does not tell his people to flee because corruption exists—he tells them to flee when judgment is about to fall.

Third, regarding conscience: I respect that you do not want to sit silently where you believe error is being taught. Scripture recognizes conscience (Romans 14:23). At the same time, conscience alone has never been presented in the Bible as the trigger for prophetic flight. In Jerusalem, corruption had existed for decades—yet Jesus told his followers to stay until a specific sign appeared. That pattern matters, because it shows that Jehovah—not individual outrage—sets the timing.

Finally, I agree with you on one point completely: no one should be forced to act against conscience, and no one should be pressured to speak or stay silent unnaturally (Acts 5:29). But the biblical record also warns against running ahead of Jehovah (Ecclesiastes 7:8; Habakkuk 2:3). Waiting is not passivity; it is often obedience.

So the issue is not whether believers left Judea early—they did. The issue is why they left, what Jesus’ sign was actually about, and whether the final fulfillment requires clearer divine action, just as it did in the first century.

I appreciate your honesty and your desire to remain responsive to Jehovah’s direction. On that, we are not far apart.

 

[BibleLover]

Thank you for the follow-up, @BibleLover —

A couple thoughts here...

You mentioned Matthew 24:15-16, so we'll work from that one, if that's alright with you.

"When you catch sight of the disgusting thing standing in a holy place..."

First, this was not "a clear signal" as you suggest. Sure, it was to those who believed, but there was no certainty involved with this. The command relied solely on the observer's own understanding. After all, there were plenty of fellow Jews who were alive then, and they did not flee— presumably because they did not themselves see this taking place.

So, they perished.

Of those who "caught sight" of it, they had to be looking for it. Can you honestly say that the majority of the brothers and sisters inside the organization are, in fact, looking for "the disgusting thing standing in a holy place" within the Watchtower organization itself, or are they directed to look elsewhere?

Second, this was direction that was given by Jesus, not Jehovah Himself (cf. Hebrews 1:2). Jesus was telling his disciples that when they saw this taking place, they were to flee. Yet the only ones who needed to flee were those in Judea itself. So, the question one should be asking here is whether those who "caught sight" of it were under obligation to remain until everyone else saw it, too? If I'm understanding your argumentation here, you seem to believe this will be a collective exit, rather than individual... as if everyone together will "catch sight of it" and immediately leave as one group, and I'm not seeing the scriptural support for that.

Third, how do you know with certainty that when a fellow believer is trying to help you to understand what they are catching sight of, that this isn't the means through which Jehovah is trying to reach you? I'm reminded of an old story of an oldie but goodie:



—Timothy,
a believer.

Thank you for taking the time to clarify your thinking. Let me respond point by point:

First, regarding whether the sign was “clear” or a matter of individual perception.
In the first century, Christians did not flee before Jerusalem was surrounded. Jesus himself defined the sign very concretely: “When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that her desolation has drawn near” (Luke 21:20). That was not an abstract or internal realization; it was an objective, historical event. The reason many Jews did not flee was not because the sign was vague, but because they did not believe Jesus (John 8:45). Faith, not uncertainty, was the dividing line.

Importantly, Christians could not flee until after the Romans withdrew in 66 CE. While the city was under siege, escape was impossible. That shows the timing was not “whenever someone felt convinced,” but when Jehovah opened a window of escape. The sign identified when judgment was imminent, not when corruption first existed—corruption had existed for decades already (Matthew 23:37).

Second, on whether this required a collective or individual response.
Scripture shows both elements working together. Jesus addressed individuals (“let those in Judea flee”), yet history shows a coordinated flight of the Christian community to Pella. More importantly, prophecy often unfolds in stages, with Jehovah allowing awareness to grow among his people. Elijah thought he was alone, yet Jehovah told him: “I have left 7,000 in Israel” (1 Kings 19:18). Awareness was not universal at first—but Jehovah knew who belonged to him.

Likewise, during the harvest Jesus described, the separation of wheat and weeds is not carried out by individuals acting independently, but by angels at the conclusion of the system (Matthew 13:39–43). That alone tells us that the decisive separation is Jehovah’s work, not ours to initiate prematurely.

Third, about whether Jehovah could be using fellow believers to help others “catch sight” of the sign.
Yes—Jehovah can and does use individuals to warn, explain, and clarify. That was true of prophets, John the Baptist, and first-century Christians (Acts 11:27–28). But Scripture also warns that not every claim of insight constitutes divine direction (1 John 4:1). In the first century, no Christian fled because another Christian told them corruption had reached a breaking point. They fled because Jesus’ specific prophetic marker occurred, exactly as foretold.

That distinction matters, especially in a global fulfillment. Judea was local; the final fulfillment involves “all nations” (Matthew 24:14) and a global political power—the eighth king (Revelation 17:12–14). Just as the first fulfillment required a visible, undeniable development, it is reasonable to expect that Jehovah will again make the timing unmistakable.

So the issue is not whether individuals can act according to conscience—Romans 14 addresses that. The issue is whether prophetic flight is based on conscience alone or on Jehovah-given timing and signs. In Scripture, it is always the latter.

Waiting for Jehovah’s signal is not fear, hesitation, or lack of faith. Often, it is exactly what faith looks like (Habakkuk 2:3).

 

[GlennH]

Here's my first stab at this to foster discussion.

I am starting with Mt 24:15,16 in the NWT(2013)

Who: Jesus, the disciples, Daniel the prophet, the reader, those in Judea, you; anyone else?
What: the disgustiing thing that causes desolation, a holy place, the mountains, Daniel's writings; anything else?
When: After Jesus' last visit to the temple before his last Passover, after answering the questions posed by his disciples to him in private, you catch sight; any other time?
Where: Mount of Olives, Judea; any other place?
Why: Jesus' counsel based upon his answers to the disciples earlier questions posed in private('Therefore, ...'); any other reasons?
How: spoke of, use discernment, fleeing; any other actions?

So, Jesus in Mt 24:4-14 gives answers to the disciples' questions posed in Mt 24:3. Given that he has answered, he then gives a priority and instructions in Mt 24:15-22 for the period of time before the great tribulation starts to the disciples, the reader, and those in Judea.

Jesus is speaking to the disciples, telling them what to be watching for and where to watch for it. He then tells another group of people, those of Judea, to begin fleeing to the mountains when his disciples catch sight of the thing spoken of by Daniel in a holy place. In Mt 24:17-20 he describes what beginning to flee means.

Questions this exercise brings to mind:

1. What was the disgusting thing that causes desolation spoken of by Daniel? He didn't say "written of by Daniel", so I am looking for quotes of Daniel instead of the references given in the NWT. Or did he mean spoken about in Daniel by the angels? Who is the reader?

2. Is there a difference between 'a holy place' and 'the holy place'?

3. Catching sight of means get a glimpse, when it enters into your field of vision, right?

4. The reader is to use discernment - is this text added by Matthew or included in the quote by Jesus? Why the reader and not the disciples or those in Judea? Is this directed to the reader of Daniel's writings or to the reader of Matthew's Gospel? A quick glance at Proverbs 2 is where I find 'discernment' first mentioned in that book. Implying to me that the reader better be relying on Jehovah. Is there another interpretation?

5. The mountains - looking at Mt 24:17-20, is it simply praying at that moment and being guided by Jehovah's spirit, sort of like get ready to be rescued?

6. Why does the NWT glossary contain a definition for Judah and not Judea?

There are a lot of moving parts in these two verses and interpretation does not appear as straightforward as I previously reckoned.

An illustration: Me and some other managers asked our boss some questions. He gives us the answers and tells us what to be looking for and where. There is a secretary there recording this conversation because the boss wants it down in writing. The secretary points a future reader to a reference manual and that the reader should be experienced in certain matters. The boss then issues instructions to a group that may or may not include us managers. The managers infer that they are responsible for passing on the instructions to the last group.

So, back to a_believer's question about fleeing, based upon Mt 24:17-20, this fleeing is immediate, without hesitation, almost instinctual and is instruction for those of Judea at an individual, personal moment.

All mistakes are mine. Be interested in further discussion. Gonna move on to Re 6 group and its actions.

Next set of verses to analyze were Re 6:16-17 in the NWT(2013)

Who: they, us, the One, the Lamb, their, who
What: mountains, rocks, face, throne, wrath, day
When: after the sixth seal was opened, the great earthquake, the darkening of the luminaries, the falling of the stars of the heaven, departing of the heavens, removal of the mountains and islands, they go into hiding
Where: in John's vision of heaven after having come into the power of the spirit
Why: to hide from the face of Jehovah and the Lamb because the day of their wrath has come
How: asking the mountains and rocks to cover them over

They are the kings of the earth, the high officials, the military commanders, the rich, the strong, the slaves, and the free persons who remain alive during the great tribulation. They know the Lord's day has arrived. They are hiding. Earthly institutions have been destroyed. Yet, they want protection provided by those institutions again from the wrath of Jehovah and Jesus Christ.

As for the compare/contrast of the two actions of the two groups, my take is:

There are those of Judea(those belonging to Judah) who are instructed to begin to flee when any disciple discerns a glimpse of the beast Daniel spoke about standing in any holy place, dropping what they are doing, not looking back, heading to the mountains with Jehovah's approval. They know there will be a great tribulation coming. They know judgment is coming first on God's house. Their trust and hope is in Jehovah. They know to be ready to minister to Christ's brothers, the sealed remnant. They will know who they are.

versus

Those not of Judea who oppose Jehovah and Christ living at the time when the great tribulation is cut short and they desire protection from an oppressive tyrant, the final beast system. The very thing that is in all their hearts. They may or may not know they only have about 3 1/2 years to live.

The first group wins in the end.

Oh my, thankful for this exercise.

 

[Bk Kevin]

I think several different issues are being mixed together, so it may help to clarify them calmly and separately.

First, when I speak about the timing of leaving God’s organization, I am not referring to those who were expelled for telling the truth about the wrong interpretation of prophesies as I have made clear my times. Stephen is indeed a powerful example of someone who spoke truth and suffered unjustly, and Jehovah himself vindicated him by preserving his account in Scripture (Acts 7). Likewise, no one can deny that Brother King has done extensive work in examining prophecy, and many have benefited from it. Expecting him simply to abandon that work or “go back” as if nothing happened is not realistic, nor is it what I am arguing.
My point has consistently been about voluntary departure based on personal discernment of timing, not about persecution for conscience.

Second, regarding 2 Corinthians 6, the immediate context clearly concerns separation from unbelievers and idolatrous practices, not a command to abandon God’s covenant people preemptively (2 Corinthians 6:14–15). Paul elsewhere explicitly says that Christians are not expected to separate themselves from everyone who sins or errs, otherwise “you would have to get out of the world” (1 Corinthians 5:9–10). That distinction matters.

Third, the Balaam comparison needs to be handled carefully. Balaam’s defining sin was not merely speaking, but intentionally encouraging God’s people to stumble for personal gain (Numbers 31:16; Revelation 2:14). I am not paid by anyone, nor am I urging anyone to commit idolatry. On the contrary, my concern is whether we are sometimes encouraging others to run ahead of Jehovah’s judgment rather than wait for it. In Scripture, it is Jehovah who curses or disciplines His people when the time comes—not fellow Israelites (Romans 12:19).

Fourth, John 8 deserves careful handling. Jesus was not using insults, nor was he shutting down honest discussion. He was identifying a spiritual condition. The chapter shows that the decisive test was not lineage, position, or sincerity, but whether a person was willing to continue in his word and let Scripture correct them (John 8:31–32). Those Jesus addressed had repeatedly refused to examine the truth he presented, shifted the discussion away from the issue, and ultimately attacked the messenger rather than engage the message (John 8:37, 43). That refusal—combined with hardened opposition—is what led Jesus to expose the source of their attitude by its fruit (John 8:44–47).
Applied today, John 8 is not about silencing disagreement, but about self-examination: when a scriptural point is raised, do we test it honestly like the Bereans (Acts 17:11), or do we dismiss it by attacking motives and character? Jesus’ words remind us that being “from God” is shown, not claimed—by listening, reasoning from Scripture, and allowing truth to correct us, even when it is uncomfortable.

Finally, passages like Jeremiah 51:45 and the call to “get out of her” are spoken after Jehovah has made clear that judgment has arrived and that the object of judgment is no longer his arrangement. In every biblical precedent—Jerusalem, Babylon, or Rome—Jehovah made that moment unmistakable, often using external powers to execute judgment. The question is not whether judgment will come, but who decides when it has come.

Reasonable people of conscience may arrive at different conclusions, and each one must answer to Jehovah. My appeal is simply for consistency with the biblical pattern: endurance, discernment, humility, and restraint—waiting on Jehovah to act in His time rather than assuming His role ahead of it.

I'll tell you what let's just make this simple, let's just agree to disagree and call it a day and move on as I am sure when Jesus comes in has second coming he'll set us both straight. No harm no foul...

The First to the Corinthians 13 ​

13 If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels but do not have love, I have become a clanging gong or a clashing cymbal. 2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and understand all the sacred secrets and all knowledge,+ and if I have all the faith so as to move mountains,+ but do not have love, I am nothing.*+ 3 And if I give all my belongings to feed others,+ and if I hand over my body so that I may boast, but do not have love,+ I do not benefit at all.

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

It is important to clearly acknowledge that Brother Robert King has done extensive and valuable work in unveiling Bible prophecies and helping many of us gain a deeper understanding of the Scriptures. His analysis has encouraged serious Bible study, sharpened discernment, and exposed assumptions that needed to be examined. For that, many—including myself—are grateful

If I told this to the elders in my congregation they wouldn't be very happy with me!! I'd be very interested in how the elders in YOUR congregation reacted too!

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

That explains why Revelation later echoes Jesus’ warning with a worldwide call: “Get out of her, my people”

Ask any witness at your kingdom hall and they'll tell you that they've ALREADY got out of her, they'll even tell you exactly WHEN they got out of her. If you tried to tell them they got out too early and that they really ought to go back until the BBC World News announces it on the TV and radio they'd think you were crackers.

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

More importantly, prophecy often unfolds in stages

Precisely!!

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

I am sure when Jesus comes in has second coming he'll set us both straight

And if he tells me I came here too soon then I'll take my punishment..

 

[Ana]

Te diré algo: simplifiquemos esto: aceptamos estar en desacuerdo, demos por terminado el asunto y sigamos adelante, porque estoy seguro de que cuando Jesús venga por segunda vez, nos pondrá en su lugar. No hay daño ni falta.

1 Corintios 13​

13 Si hablo lenguas humanas y angélicas, pero no tengo amor, vengo a ser como metal que retiñe o címbalo que retiñe. 2  Y si tengo el don de profecía y entiendo todos los misterios sagrados y todo el conocimiento, + y si tengo toda la fe como para trasladar montañas, + pero no tengo amor, nada soy. * + 3  Y si repartiera todos mis bienes para alimentar a otros, + y si entregara mi cuerpo para gloriarme, pero no tengo amor, + de nada me sirve.

Quien sabe si esta en acuerdo o en desacuerdo, porque aquí está, nutrido o desnutrido, quien sabe, dedicando tiempo a conversar con los que fueron echados de las sinagogas, y los que salieron antes de observar la cosa repugnante en todo su esplendor por enfrentarse con ella cara a cara.
¡Aquí estamos si Señor! Dando la cara y lo que nos queda.
1 Corintios 4:9-? Porque me parece que a nosotros los apóstoles Dios nos ha puesto últimos en exhibición como hombres designados para muerte, porque hemos llegado a ser un espectáculo teatral al mundo, tanto a ángeles como a hombres. 10 Nosotros somos necios por causa de Cristo, pero ustedes son discretos en Cristo; nosotros somos débiles, pero ustedes fuertes; ustedes tienen buena reputación, pero nosotros deshonra. 11 Hasta la hora actual continuamos padeciendo hambre y también sed y estando escasamente vestidos y siendo maltratados y estando sin hogar 12 y afanándonos, trabajando con nuestras propias manos. Cuando se nos injuria, bendecimos; cuando se nos persigue, lo soportamos; 13 cuando se nos infama, suplicamos; Hemos llegado a ser como la basura del mundo, el deseo de todas las cosas, hasta ahora. 14 No estoy escribiendo estas cosas para avergonzarlos, sino para amonestarlos como a mis hijos amados. 15 Pues aunque ustedes tengan diez mil tutores en Cristo, ciertamente no [tienen] muchos padres; porque en Cristo Jesús yo he llegado a ser padre de ustedes mediante las buenas nuevas. 16 Les suplico, por lo tanto: háganse imitadores de mí. 17 Por eso les envío a Timoteo, puesto que él es mi hijo amado y fiel en [el] Señor; y él les recordará mis métodos relacionados con Cristo Jesús, así como yo estoy enseñando en todas partes en toda congregación. 18 Algunos están hinchados como si yo en realidad no hubiera de ir a ustedes. 19 Pero iré a ustedes dentro de poco, si Jehová quiere, y llegaré a conocer, no el habla de los que están hinchados, sino [su] poder. Porque el reino de Dios no [estriba] en habla, sino en poder. 21 ¿Qué quieren ustedes? ¿Iré a ustedes con vara, o con amor y apacibilidad de espíritu?

 

[BibleLover]

Ana, estoy aca dedicando tiempo a estar con ustedes porque no solo son mis hermanos y hermanas sino principalmente porque realmente aman la verdad, a tal punto de sacrificar todo por ella, y eso es muy admirable. Se que no les caigo bien porque hablo de volver y lo entiendo ya que no fue nada fácil para mi hacerlo y no voy a decir tampoco que me siento como en una gran familia en la congregación, solo lo hago porque creo que Jehová quiere y porque es parte del aguante y entrenamiento que necesitaré para pasar el fin, y porque creo que a medida que se acerque el fin algunos despertarán y quizás estén dispuestos a escuchar. El tiempo dirá. En algo coincido con Timothy Believer, no hay nada mas incierto que nuestra situación y es por eso que he aprendido a que debemos dejar que Jehová nos guíe dia a día y a estar dispuestos a cambiar si estamos equivocados.

 

[Watchman]

Here's a little book update: I have decided to hold back on releasing the fourth edition and newly designed website until the last week of March. The last week of March is Memorial Week, with the Memorial falling on April 2nd this year. That will give me more time to see what develops over the next two months and allow me to keep banging away on the keyboard.

 

[Jahrule]

Here's a little book update: I have decided to hold back on releasing the fourth edition and newly designed website until the last week of March. The last week of March is Memorial Week, with the Memorial falling on April 2nd this year. That will give me more time to see what develops over the next two months and allow me to keep banging away on the keyboard.

Good idea. Everything changing on a dime lately. Maybe this will be the year, maybe not, but something big is coming.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

So you agree that Robert is doing Jehovah's work then? If so, then maybe Jehovah wants us here to listen and learn, maybe Jehovah actually brought us here? I can't prove he did, but I can't prove he didn't either, but in my heart of hearts I'm convinced he did, and I can't shake off that conviction, no matter how often I log on to the meetings or watch the JW TV channel, in fact, listening to the meetings and watching the TV channel is actually having the opposite effect on me, it's convincing me more and more that coming here was the right thing to do, and the more you try and make me feel guilty the more I wonder WHY?

Wonder no longer Proverbs! Actually, BL is not trying to make you feel guilty. The sense of feeling he is looking for is to comfort himself with reassurance that he is correct, and to play the elder role. He probably is an ‘elder’ and his foray into the world of ‘Disfellowshipped and errant witnesses’ is a sort of ministry he can feel safe with and probably discusses with other elders as a badge of honour. He is not here to reason with us, but to minister to us. Perhaps he feels unappreciated within his congregation.

Faith built on understanding does not require such reassurance from men. Not only is faith self supporting through prayer and application in one’s life, but becomes proven through the reciprocal’ ‘peace’ that I’m sure many if not all of us feel here as a result of our endeavour to seek depth within the Spirit. Is this not so? Do any of us not feel the security of a mental ‘foundation’ of rock that the bible speaks of, through which we gain such reassurance against the emptiness and futility of the watchtower 1914 whitewashed wall?

We test our faith daily through prayer and comparison, looking for substance within scripture and that underlines progress in application. We realise that the scripture is not about perfunctory adherence to rules and regulations but in determining the values for ourselves as to the outcome of their application within our spiritual understanding - that love is not about the vacuity of being “nice” to each other, but of accommodating the attributes of the Sprit within our spiritual understanding and applying their values to all others because we have become part of that spirituality ourselves. Even saplings bear fruit do they not?

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

The sense of feeling he is looking for is to comfort himself with reassurance that he is correct,

Well, there's an awful lot of scripturally based information on this site to help us work out what's correct and what's not

 

[Jahrule]

Wonder no longer Proverbs! Actually, BL is not trying to make you feel guilty. The sense of feeling he is looking for is to comfort himself with reassurance that he is correct, and to play the elder role. He probably is an ‘elder’ and his foray into the world of ‘Disfellowshipped and errant witnesses’ is a sort of ministry he can feel safe with and probably discusses with other elders as a badge of honour. He is not here to reason with us, but to minister to us. Perhaps he feels unappreciated within his congregation.

Faith built on understanding does not require such reassurance from men. Not only is faith self supporting through prayer and application in one’s life, but becomes proven through the reciprocal’ ‘peace’ that I’m sure many if not all of us feel here as a result of our endeavour to seek depth within the Spirit. Is this not so? Do any of us not feel the security of a mental ‘foundation’ of rock that the bible speaks of, through which we gain such reassurance against the emptiness and futility of the watchtower 1914 whitewashed wall?

We test our faith daily through prayer and comparison, looking for substance within scripture and that underlines progress in application. We realise that the scripture is not about perfunctory adherence to rules and regulations but in determining the values for ourselves as to the outcome of their application within our spiritual understanding - that love is not about the vacuity of being “nice” to each other, but of accommodating the attributes of the Sprit within our spiritual understanding and applying their values to all others because we have become part of that spirituality ourselves. Even saplings bear fruit do they not?

It's that personal relationship we here know all too well. There is a difference between obedience to God and obedience to an organization. Like that lady who dismissed my baptism in Lake Lanier because she thinks Watchtower has a monopoly on baptism.

Jehovah knows what is in our heart. A baptism is a Personal dedication to Jah, not an institutional membership. It's for this reason many JWs will miss the call to get out of her. They'll make excuses to remain.

Imagine if we criticized the org the same way Jesus criticized the religious leaders of his day. We wouldn't have to leave. We'd be removed. At some point that attitude will shift to brothers turning on one another to protect their idol. Myself and others here have simply decided to honor Jehovah in our our hearts instead of our mouths.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

It's that personal relationship we here know all too well. There is a difference between obedience to God and obedience to an organization. Like that lady who dismissed my baptism in Lake Lanier because she thinks Watchtower has a monopoly on baptism.

Jehovah knows what is in our heart. A baptism is a Personal dedication to Jah, not an institutional membership. It's for this reason many JWs will miss the call to get out of her. They'll make excuses to remain.

Imagine if we criticized the org the same way Jesus criticized the religious leaders of his day. We wouldn't have to leave. We'd be removed. At some point that attitude will shift to brothers turning on one another to protect their idol. Myself and others here have simply decided to honor Jehovah in our our hearts instead of our mouths.

I had a “watchtower approved” baptism, but in those days I didn’t have to swear allegiance to the board of governors. I don’t feel my baptism then was relevant to what I know now, sadly, it feels sullied because though it was honest on my part, my understanding was watchtowers. I feel content with what I know now in that my dedication is heartfelt and with “understanding” of the truth - even moreso than it was then.