June 16 2022 Should true Christians associate with...?

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

@BARNABY THE DOG. My mom and I often talk about the WT’s claim that only JW’s will be saved during God’s day. We think it’s highly presumptuous because Paul speaks of people who uphold the law without knowing the law.
There are many places on earth where Christianity is forbidden, for example China. Would Jehovah just all destroy these people just because they have never heard of Him? It’s hard for me to accept.

So I do think your question about the anointed is a valid one. If we wouldn’t speak, the stones would, right? I guess the near future will give us the answers we’re looking for.

I have not given it much thought before, but Driven’s question about the anointed appears t have a degree of substance that I had not considered before. The more I think about it, the more reasonable it is to assume that anointed ones will appear in the future. After all, is not their use to speak out? That is not happening within the watchtower and neither it seems is their mettle as to the task ahead. Surely anointed ones at this point in time would need not only a purpose, but understanding, insight, zeal. Where is this to come from if at this late stage, they are still blind as to the truth? And if they are aware, then are all of them assuming that now is not the time to speak out. One might ask, what will be sufficient wrongdoing for them to get on their feet? Surely, when the bride has come, it is already too late? What are they going to do, point at Christ‘s Kingdom and say “What He says!” I don’t know. I’m not good at predictions and neither do I have the insight into prophesy. All I can boast of is the intuition to suggest that the point needs reasoning on. Probably sooner rather than later. Good suggestions such as Driven raises deserve some discussion.

 

[MickHewitt]

I have not given it much thought before, but Driven’s question about the anointed appears t have a degree of substance that I had not considered before. The more I think about it, the more reasonable it is to assume that anointed ones will appear in the future. After all, is not their use to speak out? That is not happening within the watchtower and neither it seems is their mettle as to the task ahead. Surely anointed ones at this point in time would need not only a purpose, but understanding, insight, zeal. Where is this to come from if at this late stage, they are still blind as to the truth? And if they are aware, then are all of them assuming that now is not the time to speak out. One might ask, what will be sufficient wrongdoing for them to get on their feet? Surely, when the bride has come, it is already too late? What are they going to do, point at Christ‘s Kingdom and say “What He says!” I don’t know. I’m not good at predictions and neither do I have the insight into prophesy. All I can boast of is the intuition to suggest that the point needs reasoning on. Probably sooner rather than later. Good suggestions such as Driven raises deserve some discussion.

Jehovah is well aware of the feelings between Judah and Israel the chosen and the called. In the establishing of Zion post tribulation the two sticks described in Ezekiel 37:15-20 Chosen/Called, Judah and Israel become one! Without such harmony why would people of the Nations be inspired to go up to the Mountain of Zion?

 

[LifeLearning]

There are many places on earth where Christianity is forbidden, for example China. Would Jehovah just all destroy these people just because they have never heard of Him? It’s hard for me to accept.

This is another WT doctrine I do not accept. Those who truly seek find. One plants, another waters, but Jehovah makes it grow. The WT is not the one doing the harvesting, that is to be by Angels of God.

 

[StillA_WorshiperOfJah]

@BARNABY THE DOG. My mom and I often talk about the WT’s claim that only JW’s will be saved during God’s day. We think it’s highly presumptuous because Paul speaks of people who uphold the law without knowing the law.
There are many places on earth where Christianity is forbidden, for example China. Would Jehovah just all destroy these people just because they have never heard of Him? It’s hard for me to accept.

So I do think your question about the anointed is a valid one. If we wouldn’t speak, the stones would, right? I guess the near future will give us the answers we’re looking for.

The bible teaches that the:
*Wild beast
*The Kings off the earth and their armys, who stand in opposition to Jesus
* The false prophet
*and Those who have taken the mark of the beast
Who are killed at Armageddon. See Rev ch 19
So presumably a non JW who doesn't align themselves with the Kings of the earth against Jesus and hasn't taken the mark of the beast may survive Armageddon and be part of the Great Crowd that survives. This is what I am trying to instill in to my non JW friends.

 

[kenmuldoon55]

The bible teaches that the:
*Wild beast
*The Kings off the earth and their armys, who stand in opposition to Jesus
* The false prophet
*and Those who have taken the mark of the beast
Who are killed at Armageddon. See Rev ch 19
So presumably a non JW who doesn't align themselves with the Kings of the earth against Jesus and hasn't taken the mark of the beast may survive Armageddon and be part of the Great Crowd that survives. This is what I am trying to instill in to my non JW friends.

Trying to understand future events from our present stand point is difficult.
At that time, when Jehovah pours His spirit out and matters become clear to us, rest assured that the evil that presently lurks just out of most peoples sight, will be put on full display for all to see.
The dire consequences of giving one’s allegiance to this global despot will be unmistakeable and fully revealed thanks to the work of the then fully empowered brothers of Christ foretold at Rev 10:11
Then they said to me, “You must prophesy again concerning many peoples and nations and languages and kings.”
Revelation 10:11
Be assured that every human that survives the wholesale death wrought by the “great sword of war and subsequent plagues” will not be ignorant of the issue of universal sovereignty.
It is those who refuse this mark who’ll be standing when the dust of Armageddon settles.
Would we expect any less from the God of love?

 

[Ms_ladyblue]

The bible teaches that the:
*Wild beast
*The Kings off the earth and their armys, who stand in opposition to Jesus
* The false prophet
*and Those who have taken the mark of the beast
Who are killed at Armageddon. See Rev ch 19
So presumably a non JW who doesn't align themselves with the Kings of the earth against Jesus and hasn't taken the mark of the beast may survive Armageddon and be part of the Great Crowd that survives. This is what I am trying to instill in to my non JW friends.

@StillA_WorshiperOfJah

That’s a good point. I’ve thought about the fact that they’re definitely many who aren’t JW’s that won’t be lining up to take the mark of the beast.

But then I think about what 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 says, particularly verse 8 which says “…in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.”

 

[SusanB]

We know when Dan8:11 describes the KOTN exalted behaviour against Christ 'The Prince of your people'. Also the 'Constant Feature' plus the established place of Christ's sanctuary is taken down! These features are represented where else but within the Organisation that bears Jah's Name?

However, is not the ”established place of his sanctuary” the anointed the same as the temple?

 

[Sunshower]

But then I think about what 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 says, particularly verse 8 which says “…in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.”

But if the true anointed will preach in the future, people who now don’t want to associate with the org, have the chance to accept Jesus as their king, as they won’t have the feeling they’d be followers of man.

 

[MickHewitt]

However, is not the ”established place of his sanctuary” the anointed the same as the temple?

In a relative sense but this context is His congregation and it's services to Kingdom 'This good news of the kingdom'

 

[SusanB]

Also Rev12:13 When the Devil realises he is thrown down he persecutes the woman who gave birth to the child. Now the Devil can no longer persecute anything or anyone in heaven while thrown down....so who is this woman he persecutes on earth......? Who has had the ability to produce such ones? It has to be......?

Hi Brother Hewitt, Here is some explanation from the Insight book on who the woman is and she is apparently heavenly but she still has children on earth.

*** it-2 p. 1198 Woman ***
It would follow logically and in harmony with the Scriptures that the “woman” of Genesis 3:15 would be a spiritual “woman.” And corresponding to the fact that the “bride,” or “wife,” of Christ is not an individual woman, but a composite one, made of many spiritual members (Re 21:9), the “woman” who brings forth God’s spiritual sons, God’s ‘wife’ (prophetically foretold in the words of Isaiah and Jeremiah as cited in the foregoing), would be made up of many spiritual persons. It would be a composite body of persons, an organization, a heavenly one.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200004621&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=28

*** it-2 p. 1198 Woman ***
Satan is shown later as persecuting the “woman” and making war with “the remaining ones of her seed.” (Re 12:13, 17) The “woman” being heavenly, and Satan by this time being hurled down to the earth (Re 12:7-9), he could not reach those heavenly persons of whom the “woman” was made up, but he could reach the remaining ones of her “seed,” her children, the brothers of Jesus Christ still on earth. In that way he persecuted the “woman.”

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200004621&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=30

 

[MickHewitt]

Hi Brother Hewitt, Here is some explanation from the Insight book on who the woman is and she is apparently heavenly but she still has children on earth.

*** it-2 p. 1198 Woman ***
It would follow logically and in harmony with the Scriptures that the “woman” of Genesis 3:15 would be a spiritual “woman.” And corresponding to the fact that the “bride,” or “wife,” of Christ is not an individual woman, but a composite one, made of many spiritual members (Re 21:9), the “woman” who brings forth God’s spiritual sons, God’s ‘wife’ (prophetically foretold in the words of Isaiah and Jeremiah as cited in the foregoing), would be made up of many spiritual persons. It would be a composite body of persons, an organization, a heavenly one.

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200004621&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=28

*** it-2 p. 1198 Woman ***
Satan is shown later as persecuting the “woman” and making war with “the remaining ones of her seed.” (Re 12:13, 17) The “woman” being heavenly, and Satan by this time being hurled down to the earth (Re 12:7-9), he could not reach those heavenly persons of whom the “woman” was made up, but he could reach the remaining ones of her “seed,” her children, the brothers of Jesus Christ still on earth. In that way he persecuted the “woman.”

https://www.jw.org/finder?wtlocale=E&docid=1200004621&srctype=wol&srcid=share&par=30

They should have stuck to their remit, preach the good news and leave prophesying alone until what Joel prophesied would take place!

 

[LifeLearning]

But then I think about what 2 Thessalonians 1:6-8 says, particularly verse 8 which says “…in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus.”

It rings true to me that there will be BOTH chosen and great crowd that are not JW's. To "know Jehovah" does not require the doctrine of the watchtower, but the will of God.

They should have stuck to their remit, preach the good news and leave prophesying alone until what Joel prophesied would take place!

MickHewitt: Well said! If the watchtower were a prophet sent by Jehovah then the prophesy would have come true. Instead they changed the narrative with "new light" after having been proven wrong for decades. That's not a prophet.

 

[SusanB]

Jehovah is well aware of the feelings between Judah and Israel the chosen and the called. In the establishing of Zion post tribulation the two sticks described in Ezekiel 37:15-20 Chosen/Called, Judah and Israel become one! Without such harmony why would people of the Nations be inspired to go up to the Mountain of Zion?

Can you explain how you came to the conclusion that the 2 sticks of Ezekiel 37:15-20 represent those chosen and those called? I‘m not understanding that.

 

[SusanB]

It rings true to me that there will be BOTH chosen and great crowd that are not JW's. To "know Jehovah" does not require the doctrine of the watchtower, but the will of God.


MickHewitt: Well said! If the watchtower were a prophet sent by Jehovah then the prophesy would have come true. Instead they changed the narrative with "new light" after having been proven wrong for decades. That's not a prophet.

Well in doing further research, here is something appropriate to the topic at Isaiah 43:5-7: “Do not be afraid, for I am with you. I will bring your offspring from the east And gather you together from the west. I will say to the north, ‘Give them up!’ And to the south, ‘Do not hold them back. Bring my sons from afar, and my daughters from the ends of the earth, Everyone who is called by my name And whom I created for my own glory, Whom I have formed and made.’”

But another thought is that from my reading of Acts chapter 15, the first century apostles considered themselves as a people called by Jehovah’s name, see Acts 15:15-18: “And with this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is written: ‘After these things I will return and raise up again the tent of David that is fallen down; I will rebuild its ruins and restore it, so that the men who remain may earnestly seek Jehovah, together with people of all the nations, people who are called by my name, says Jehovah, who is doing these things, known from of old’”.

 

[MickHewitt]

It rings true to me that there will be BOTH chosen and great crowd that are not JW's. To "know Jehovah" does not require the doctrine of the watchtower, but the will of God.


MickHewitt: Well said! If the watchtower were a prophet sent by Jehovah then the prophesy would have come true. Instead they changed the narrative with "new light" after having been proven wrong for decades. That's not a prophet.

Can you explain how you came to the conclusion that the 2 sticks of Ezekiel 37:15-20 represent those chosen and those called? I‘m not understanding that.

Eze37 talks of the reawakening of His people from spiritual death. The valley of dry bones the two tribes that are brought together at that time are Judah and Israel they must represent non other than the chosen and called.

 

[SusanB]

Eze37 talks of the reawakening of His people from spiritual death. The valley of dry bones the two tribes that are brought together at that time are Judah and Israel they must represent non other than the chosen and called.

Are you saying that the two sticks represent the chosen aka sealed anointed as one stick perhaps Judah but the other stick, Joseph (Israel) present the anointed who are not sealed? Am I understanding you correctly?

 

[MickHewitt]

Are you saying that the two sticks represent the chosen aka sealed anointed as one stick perhaps Judah but the other stick, Joseph (Israel) present the anointed who are not sealed? Am I understanding you correctly?

Kingship comes through Judah so they must represent the remnant/Chosen/Anointed.....the rest are the dead witnesses who get spiritually resurected.....other sheep not anointed Eze37vs11 "Our bones are dry and our hope has perished". Also the Nations will come in taught by this set up Micah4......? Keep knocking Driven..

 

[SusanB]

Kingship comes through Judah so they must represent the remnant/Chosen/Anointed.....the rest are the dead witnesses who get spiritually resurected.....other sheep. Also the Nations will come in taught by this set up Micah4......? Keep knocking Driven..

Sorry I’m still confused as to who the Joseph/Israel stick represents. Are you saying the Joseph/Israel stick is non-anointed worshippers and that they are also referred to as “other sheep”. That would make sense since the little flock and the other sheep are also eventually joined into one flock and with the sticks they become one stick. Just clarifying since I don’t want to assume anything.

 

[MickHewitt]

Sorry I’m still confused as to who the Joseph/Israel stick represents. Are you saying the Joseph/Israel stick is non-anointed worshippers and that they are also referred to as “other sheep”. That would make sense since the little flock and the other sheep are also eventually joined into one flock and with the sticks they become one stick. Just clarifying since I don’t want to assume anything.

Bingo!

 

[Ms_ladyblue]

Sorry I’m still confused as to who the Joseph/Israel stick represents. Are you saying the Joseph/Israel stick is non-anointed worshippers and that they are also referred to as “other sheep”. That would make sense since the little flock and the other sheep are also eventually joined into one flock and with the sticks they become one stick. Just clarifying since I don’t want to assume anything.

@Driven

I believe that you hit the nail on the head!