Jw Letters, Update #4, and the buried talent

Nomex

Nomex

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So, let me refresh everyone about this JW letters. It is a Facebook group, a private group, as if I need to say that, that was started after Covid began and the Kingdom Hall shut downs. My wife joined it back in the beginning, and I think I did too eventually, but I managed to get kicked off pretty quick after finding this place. Any way, I am glad my wife is still on it, because it's like having a finger on the pulse of what's going on with the R&F. Needless to say, the whole clicking glasses was not the first time there has been controversy on there, but this one for whatever reason has really brought out the worst in them.

So, with Update #4, there has been a number of posts. One I mentioned in another thread, was someone asked if they could link to the video, the one about man made rules and was dragged over the coals, because of their man made rules about posting links...so there was back and forth over that.

While I relate these things I want you guys to think about that scripture where Jesus said, "you'd know my disciples if they have love among themselves."

So one in particular was someone asking basically, how is this is any different, or is it different, than saying "bless you" after someone sneezes. The back and forth was exactly what we would all expect. And it just devolved from there.

Another person mentioned Christmas and Birthdays. When listening to Lett's talk about how "the meanings have changed", well that's what worldly people have been saying about Christmas as long as I was old enough to remember. This sister, was basically pointing that out. She said she didn't understand it, and it was basically, the same argument people were making about "bless you."

Let me point something out before I go on. First let me say what is obvious, the day before Lett's talk, clinking glasses was NOT a conscience matter!!! Hold that thought!

This poor sister really had the riot act read to her. I asked my wife to read me what she wrote, because what I am about to say, you'd think she said something that we say here it sounded like she was fed up, had enough, but none of us are stupid, and we know exactly how it would be received, so we keep our months shut, that is unless we have decided, not to take the cowards way out, like I have, and not made it widely known where I stand. In any case, she wasn't even in the same ball park. Basically what happened is she kept saying, "I don't understand this doesn't make any sense and how is this any different than Christmas." One of the admins, a sister, BTW, these are all public posts to anyone who's a member there. One admin talked down to her like you wouldn't believe. And I'm just using that expression, but I know we will all believe it, we have all experienced it. But the point is, it shouldn't be happening. Oh also, their answer was basically, "Bro, Lett already answered it." "Did you watched the video". "You need to watch it again." And then it devolved from there to more personal attacks.

One admin made a post, asking three questions, I can't remember exactly, but it was something like this, "are you bringing this up just to started trouble," Are you mocking the GB", Etc, use your JW world imagination, and you'll be very close. In addition, the brother who started the page, made a red sticky, with the sisters name and profile pic, calling her out, saying the admins needed to talk to her privately, they already sent her a private massage, and you need to go to your Elders" (I think). The "go to your Elders" was in one of the many posts.

In the midst of all this, here's where we get into the "mother turning on daughter, father on son, vice versa, etc. Then they got into the horrible treatment so many of them have witnessed and experienced themselves, all with the justification for the treatment, as well as people condemning it, but they never really go all the way. Here's two of the experiences. These two, were both Bible studies. (I must say, I am posting all this from memory, so take the whole thing as one huge composite, because I am almost certainly mixing one story together with another, but that's okay, because it's all the same theme. But just wanted to make sure I clarified that.)

So one was a sister studying with her bible student, who had tattoos. Keep in mind this is a bible student, not some JW who grew up in the truth left and came back, now they have to live with JW judgement. Not that that's OK either, but this is almost unfathomable...OK no it's not...I guess I wish it was unfathomable!

So a sister follows this girl into the bathroom and tells her about tattoo make up to cover up her tattoo. I think they said it was between her shoulder blades, and if the dress was low cut enough in the back...I told my wife, "the only thing she needed to cover up her tattoo, was "love." "Love covers over a multitude of sins." But there is no love. The icing on the cake. She left and has never been back.

Next one just like it, a bible study, starts studying and she has dreadlocks. She progressing nicely, then some sister during a Watchtower study that had nothing to do what so ever with grooming, raises her hand and works dreadlocks into her comment...she also left and never came back. She even said, that they saw her cart "witnessing" and she pretended not to see them. I want to say here; WHAT DO YOU THINK Jehovah feels about this crap? If it bothers us I can only imagine.

Then there were more experiences, going back to the 70's how "I had a family member that happened to too, and they left in the 70's and so far have never come back." (No wonder WT is saying some can repent during the GT, they have driven so many people out. Do they subconsciously think that will save them?)

Going back to the question about how is clicking glasses different than other things that have had the meaning changed. I came to realize two things on that page. They could NOT elaborate in any way, and I'm going to get into why in just a second, but I also noticed, how defensive they really are.

I mentioned this also,what the GB has done, I do not think they have any understanding what so ever. Claiming this is a "conscience matter" is a total lie, and I am going to prove it. First of all, the GB has a very big problem on there hands, because they have never delineated, what makes "paganism" bad. They have hinted at it, and it's is "understood" but they have proven they do NOT even begin to understand. First of all, if it is a "conscience matter" it's ALWAYS been a conscience matter. If someone tells you it a "conscience matter" that is NOT YOUR CONSCIENCE, it's HIS conscience telling you it is a conscience matter. Let me put it this a way. For something to be a conscience matter you first have to define what that is, which WT has done a descent job in that regard, but that's only part of it. You next have to define what Bible principles that would apply that would make something displeasing to Jehovah. "Pagan roots" does NOT really do that. The problem is what those pagan roots represent, which is worship of demons.

So what constitutes worship? Well, I think you can argue, saying "bless you" is in fact a "blessing" so who are you asking to bless someone? Clinking glasses on the other hand was part of the ritualistic worship of false gods. So the act itself was the worship. Can you argue that is a conscience matter? I'm not sure you can because if you know that is what it is, then can you still claim the meaning has changed? To who? Because to me it's sounds more like, "the meaning has changed because people don't know that's what it represents anymore, and they aren't doing it for that reason." I'm just not sure if you can still claim that is a conscience matter.

But here's my over arching point. In order to establish something as a "conscience matter" you cannot single any ONE thing out. It's a total contradiction. What he is really saying, is, "it is a conscience matter as to when you can or cannot clink glasses." That's not doing them any favors either. But again how do you single out one thing like this? You cannot go back and say retroactively, "oh this is now a conscience matter." BTW, it's the same thing with beards etc. Oh, wait I forgot, "the light keeps getting brighter". Brighter than what? I guess a match is brighter than total darkness.

If you are saying, "this one thing is now a conscience matter" but leave everything else up in the air. It's a complete farce. If they were actually trying to establish certain things as being a conscience matter, then you do what I am suggesting, which is, you define what pagan worship entails, including blessings, that may be attributed to the act of worshiping pagan gods, what did Satan say to Jesus, "if you'll do an act of worship to me..." and then you delineate what you would have to EXCLUDE, that would allow you to participate in said "conscience matter." But I don't know how you can exclude the part that represents an act of worship, the spillage from clicking glasses is considered as a "small offering" to the gods. So, in my mind I just don't know how the "meaning has changed". Just cause people don't know what it means, doesn't mean it doesn't mean that.

Finally, I'll say this about the clicking glasses. I don't really think it's a big deal, but WT sure made it one. Does Jehovah really care about this crap? Let me put it like this. How much of this old system is going to be carried over into Jehovah's system? Not much is my guess. Here's my point, I'm sure there's a LOT of things Jehovah doesn't approve of, but we live for the time being in Satan's system. We have NOT been taken out of it...yet. I'm not saying we just willy nilly do whatever...what I am saying, is if we are mature Christians, and I haven't seen a single one over at JW Letters, but that seems to be a well kept secret over there, but if we are, we decide for ourselves based on how we as individuals understand the Bible and what Jehovah requires of us. We, answer individually to Jehovah. If Jehovah has a problem with anything the GB are doing, what is the answer going to be from the R&F to Jehovah? "Jehovah we didn't know what we were doing was wrong we were just doing what your faithful and discreet slave told us to do." I mean this is literally what's going on over there right now. The answer to anyone questioning this "update" is, "are you questioning the Governing Body?" Exactly like the "apostate" portrayal in this years "drama". On the other hand, if we in good faith can approach Jehovah and make a good argument, why we believed a certain thing this way or that, and we are humble, if we are wrong, Jehovah will simply correct us, at the proper time. And it's our reaction to that discipline that matters. Again, I am not saying ignore your Bible trained conscience, just the opposite, use it, but make sure you know why you've made your decision, and it should NEVER be because of something the GB or anyone else tells you to do.

...which brings me to the buried talent.

That one just speaks to me for some reason. It really illustrates how instead of disbursing "food at the proper time", they have buried it. They have put the lamp under the table. As @SusanB pointed out, everything going on in the world, and this is what passes for "food at the proper time." Oh and JW Letters are convinced of it too. "The light keeps getting brighter." But there is good news, someone else over there basically said, "this is what passes for the light getting brighter." They weren't quite that obvious, but it's boiling to the surface and you can tell. Yesterday I was listening to one of the many alternative news sources I follow. I am actually informed. We are actually Awake! Instead of there stupid made up self important "Updates" they could have brothers covering the news of the day. Actual news. Not corporate shill news. Maybe if they were paying attention, dare I say it, AWAKE, then maybe, no not maybe, for sure they would have embraced Robert, and they would be fully informed and awake, and they might even know who the KOTN actually is. Instead they cozy up with the U.N. Makes perfect sense to me. And lots of quotes from the UN, UN ambassadors, you name it, they quote people, and you dig deep enough, and you find a direct connection from those people to Satan's Kingdoms. But if you wanted to figure out what was going in in the world, you'd try to find sources that at least seemed removed somewhat from Satan's ruling and lying Elite! But instead WT has buried their talent! You can see they are already saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a demanding* man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow." When Flegale said, "do we owe you an apology? No you mindless minions, and morons we know that's how Jehovah does things, its not OUR fault it's is Jehovah's doing, of course. Now shut up and do what we say, even if it makes no sense. But Especially if it makes no sense!!"

There I think I have out done myself with this one. That was one epic "wobbly rant."!!! I hope everyone enjoys it, I enjoyed writing it. Well as much as you can with this subject matter! Oh, and if you made it this far, thanks for reading. That's the least I can say to those that made it this far!!!!
 
Nomex said:
So, let me refresh everyone about this JW letters. It is a Facebook group, a private group, as if I need to say that, that was started after Covid began and the Kingdom Hall shut downs. My wife joined it back in the beginning, and I think I did too eventually, but I managed to get kicked off pretty quick after finding this place. Any way, I am glad my wife is still on it, because it's like having a finger on the pulse of what's going on with the R&F. Needless to say, the whole clicking glasses was not the first time there has been controversy on there, but this one for whatever reason has really brought out the worst in them.

So, with Update #4, there has been a number of posts. One I mentioned in another thread, was someone asked if they could link to the video, the one about man made rules and was dragged over the coals, because of their man made rules about posting links...so there was back and forth over that.

While I relate these things I want you guys to think about that scripture where Jesus said, "you'd know my disciples if they have love among themselves."

So one in particular was someone asking basically, how is this is any different, or is it different, than saying "bless you" after someone sneezes. The back and forth was exactly what we would all expect. And it just devolved from there.

Another person mentioned Christmas and Birthdays. When listening to Lett's talk about how "the meanings have changed", well that's what worldly people have been saying about Christmas as long as I was old enough to remember. This sister, was basically pointing that out. She said she didn't understand it, and it was basically, the same argument people were making about "bless you."

Let me point something out before I go on. First let me say what is obvious, the day before Lett's talk, clinking glasses was NOT a conscience matter!!! Hold that thought!

This poor sister really had the riot act read to her. I asked my wife to read me what she wrote, because what I am about to say, you'd think she said something that we say here it sounded like she was fed up, had enough, but none of us are stupid, and we know exactly how it would be received, so we keep our months shut, that is unless we have decided, not to take the cowards way out, like I have, and not made it widely known where I stand. In any case, she wasn't even in the same ball park. Basically what happened is she kept saying, "I don't understand this doesn't make any sense and how is this any different than Christmas." One of the admins, a sister, BTW, these are all public posts to anyone who's a member there. One admin talked down to her like you wouldn't believe. And I'm just using that expression, but I know we will all believe it, we have all experienced it. But the point is, it shouldn't be happening. Oh also, their answer was basically, "Bro, Lett already answered it." "Did you watched the video". "You need to watch it again." And then it devolved from there to more personal attacks.

One admin made a post, asking three questions, I can't remember exactly, but it was something like this, "are you bringing this up just to started trouble," Are you mocking the GB", Etc, use your JW world imagination, and you'll be very close. In addition, the brother who started the page, made a red sticky, with the sisters name and profile pic, calling her out, saying the admins needed to talk to her privately, they already sent her a private massage, and you need to go to your Elders" (I think). The "go to your Elders" was in one of the many posts.

In the midst of all this, here's where we get into the "mother turning on daughter, father on son, vice versa, etc. Then they got into the horrible treatment so many of them have witnessed and experienced themselves, all with the justification for the treatment, as well as people condemning it, but they never really go all the way. Here's two of the experiences. These two, were both Bible studies. (I must say, I am posting all this from memory, so take the whole thing as one huge composite, because I am almost certainly mixing one story together with another, but that's okay, because it's all the same theme. But just wanted to make sure I clarified that.)

So one was a sister studying with her bible student, who had tattoos. Keep in mind this is a bible student, not some JW who grew up in the truth left and came back, now they have to live with JW judgement. Not that that's OK either, but this is almost unfathomable...OK no it's not...I guess I wish it was unfathomable!

So a sister follows this girl into the bathroom and tells her about tattoo make up to cover up her tattoo. I think they said it was between her shoulder blades, and if the dress was low cut enough in the back...I told my wife, "the only thing she needed to cover up her tattoo, was "love." "Love covers over a multitude of sins." But there is no love. The icing on the cake. She left and has never been back.

Next one just like it, a bible study, starts studying and she has dreadlocks. She progressing nicely, then some sister during a Watchtower study that had nothing to do what so ever with grooming, raises her hand and works dreadlocks into her comment...she also left and never came back. She even said, that they saw her cart "witnessing" and she pretended not to see them. I want to say here; WHAT DO YOU THINK Jehovah feels about this crap? If it bothers us I can only imagine.

Then there were more experiences, going back to the 70's how "I had a family member that happened to too, and they left in the 70's and so far have never come back." (No wonder WT is saying some can repent during the GT, they have driven so many people out. Do they subconsciously think that will save them?)

Going back to the question about how is clicking glasses different than other things that have had the meaning changed. I came to realize two things on that page. They could NOT elaborate in any way, and I'm going to get into why in just a second, but I also noticed, how defensive they really are.

I mentioned this also,what the GB has done, I do not think they have any understanding what so ever. Claiming this is a "conscience matter" is a total lie, and I am going to prove it. First of all, the GB has a very big problem on there hands, because they have never delineated, what makes "paganism" bad. They have hinted at it, and it's is "understood" but they have proven they do NOT even begin to understand. First of all, if it is a "conscience matter" it's ALWAYS been a conscience matter. If someone tells you it a "conscience matter" that is NOT YOUR CONSCIENCE, it's HIS conscience telling you it is a conscience matter. Let me put it this a way. For something to be a conscience matter you first have to define what that is, which WT has done a descent job in that regard, but that's only part of it. You next have to define what Bible principles that would apply that would make something displeasing to Jehovah. "Pagan roots" does NOT really do that. The problem is what those pagan roots represent, which is worship of demons.

So what constitutes worship? Well, I think you can argue, saying "bless you" is in fact a "blessing" so who are you asking to bless someone? Clinking glasses on the other hand was part of the ritualistic worship of false gods. So the act itself was the worship. Can you argue that is a conscience matter? I'm not sure you can because if you know that is what it is, then can you still claim the meaning has changed? To who? Because to me it's sounds more like, "the meaning has changed because people don't know that's what it represents anymore, and they aren't doing it for that reason." I'm just not sure if you can still claim that is a conscience matter.

But here's my over arching point. In order to establish something as a "conscience matter" you cannot single any ONE thing out. It's a total contradiction. What he is really saying, is, "it is a conscience matter as to when you can or cannot clink glasses." That's not doing them any favors either. But again how do you single out one thing like this? You cannot go back and say retroactively, "oh this is now a conscience matter." BTW, it's the same thing with beards etc. Oh, wait I forgot, "the light keeps getting brighter". Brighter than what? I guess a match is brighter than total darkness.

If you are saying, "this one thing is now a conscience matter" but leave everything else up in the air. It's a complete farce. If they were actually trying to establish certain things as being a conscience matter, then you do what I am suggesting, which is, you define what pagan worship entails, including blessings, that may be attributed to the act of worshiping pagan gods, what did Satan say to Jesus, "if you'll do an act of worship to me..." and then you delineate what you would have to EXCLUDE, that would allow you to participate in said "conscience matter." But I don't know how you can exclude the part that represents an act of worship, the spillage from clicking glasses is considered as a "small offering" to the gods. So, in my mind I just don't know how the "meaning has changed". Just cause people don't know what it means, doesn't mean it doesn't mean that.

Finally, I'll say this about the clicking glasses. I don't really think it's a big deal, but WT sure made it one. Does Jehovah really care about this crap? Let me put it like this. How much of this old system is going to be carried over into Jehovah's system? Not much is my guess. Here's my point, I'm sure there's a LOT of things Jehovah doesn't approve of, but we live for the time being in Satan's system. We have NOT been taken out of it...yet. I'm not saying we just willy nilly do whatever...what I am saying, is if we are mature Christians, and I haven't seen a single one over at JW Letters, but that seems to be a well kept secret over there, but if we are, we decide for ourselves based on how we as individuals understand the Bible and what Jehovah requires of us. We, answer individually to Jehovah. If Jehovah has a problem with anything the GB are doing, what is the answer going to be from the R&F to Jehovah? "Jehovah we didn't know what we were doing was wrong we were just doing what your faithful and discreet slave told us to do." I mean this is literally what's going on over there right now. The answer to anyone questioning this "update" is, "are you questioning the Governing Body?" Exactly like the "apostate" portrayal in this years "drama". On the other hand, if we in good faith can approach Jehovah and make a good argument, why we believed a certain thing this way or that, and we are humble, if we are wrong, Jehovah will simply correct us, at the proper time. And it's our reaction to that discipline that matters. Again, I am not saying ignore your Bible trained conscience, just the opposite, use it, but make sure you know why you've made your decision, and it should NEVER be because of something the GB or anyone else tells you to do.

...which brings me to the buried talent.

That one just speaks to me for some reason. It really illustrates how instead of disbursing "food at the proper time", they have buried it. They have put the lamp under the table. As @SusanB pointed out, everything going on in the world, and this is what passes for "food at the proper time." Oh and JW Letters are convinced of it too. "The light keeps getting brighter." But there is good news, someone else over there basically said, "this is what passes for the light getting brighter." They weren't quite that obvious, but it's boiling to the surface and you can tell. Yesterday I was listening to one of the many alternative news sources I follow. I am actually informed. We are actually Awake! Instead of there stupid made up self important "Updates" they could have brothers covering the news of the day. Actual news. Not corporate shill news. Maybe if they were paying attention, dare I say it, AWAKE, then maybe, no not maybe, for sure they would have embraced Robert, and they would be fully informed and awake, and they might even know who the KOTN actually is. Instead they cozy up with the U.N. Makes perfect sense to me. And lots of quotes from the UN, UN ambassadors, you name it, they quote people, and you dig deep enough, and you find a direct connection from those people to Satan's Kingdoms. But if you wanted to figure out what was going in in the world, you'd try to find sources that at least seemed removed somewhat from Satan's ruling and lying Elite! But instead WT has buried their talent! You can see they are already saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a demanding* man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow." When Flegale said, "do we owe you an apology? No you mindless minions, and morons we know that's how Jehovah does things, its not OUR fault it's is Jehovah's doing, of course. Now shut up and do what we say, even if it makes no sense. But Especially if it makes no sense!!"

There I think I have out done myself with this one. That was one epic "wobbly rant."!!! I hope everyone enjoys it, I enjoyed writing it. Well as much as you can with this subject matter! Oh, and if you made it this far, thanks for reading. That's the least I can say to those that made it this far!!!!
Click to expand...
"Just cause people don't know what it means, doesn't mean it doesn't mean that"
Exactly Nomex.. For several years now, the GB have been gradually "doing away with" Satan. Sure, they brought him back for the convention playing the part of apostates, but that's it, that's ALL he is now, an apostate..
 
For an issue to be a matter of conscience, surely the bible provides an answer in that it advises those with maturity in learning not to stumble such ones struggling over peripheral ‘scriptural’ ephemera. The critical factor being the potential to maturity in immature ones to attain to maturity and put away such things. Paul: “when I was a child I behaved as a child, but I have put away such things….” Pardon my appalling memory in quoting.

Secondly, there is a responsibility upon all of us to be certain of our facts. One such example you raise Nomex is that the clinking of glasses was demonic practice - probably so, but history also states that it was to ensure that the liquids mixed by spilling over into the other’s glass, therefore poisoning was ruled out from the drink offered. I.e., clinking glasses was a figure of trust. Who is to say? So it’s best just to leave it.

Then there is the biblical advice to be tolerant of such minor issues in the interests of not stumbling that one over things that do not matter and that as you rightly point out, will correct themselves.

What provides balance is the scripture to “not strain at the gnat and swallow the camel”, which as others have pointed out directly, is something that the governing body are obliged to do because they have no insight into the meat of the word any longer. It seems their job was to preach the word and to leave the rest to that person to grow in their relationship with Jehovah - rather like the old “match-makers”; women that would search out suitable partners for a bride on her behalf - and they still do in India. It was up to the couple to “make it work”. And they do scripturally because they come to “recognise the voice”. It is the voice then that leads them, not the milk of the word, or the watchtower trivia, but Jehovah. Is that not so? What does this site do if not open the door to a far greater understanding than what is written in it? That is the Holy Spirit is it not, dishing out “understanding and the wisdom to perceive it”. “In all that you acquire, acquire wisdom.”

That winder is of the impression that he and his fellows “know how Jehovah teaches” and that they “owe no apology” for getting it wrong, is not only a contradiction in terms but in my opinion, wrongly observed. Jehovah appears to reveal Himself to “whom He chooses” “according to our needs”. Perhaps this is what Jehovah means by “Acquire understanding” in that we “listen to the voice.” Does not prayer give us all an ethereal understanding of Jehovah in our revealing to Him our true selves? Do we not grow spiritually in our understanding in that our heart motivation appears insightful of the meanings involved in ‘love” ‘justice’, ‘empathy’ insight and thus understanding of the greater values of the Spirit that are not written, but come to dwell within the heart according to our own faith in understanding the Word? Is this not what faith is in its foundation - a relationship with our creator? Jehovah. Is it not referred to for some as a ‘marriage”. It is indeed.

It is these things that we recognise in each other. It has no place with beards, tattoos or clinking cups. The Spirit transcends these things and appeals to the heart, the soul; the gift of life that is part of Jehovah and returns to Him at our passing. When one reaches into this cup of spirituality, the simplistic ramblings of those straining at the gnat hardly warrant a thought. Nothing but the revelation of Christ will awaken them from that - we know that in that they have been floundering about like fish on the sea shore since they invented their own Sanhedrin and called it the governing body.

As for tattoos. My wife went through a phase of that. I said to her in the end that if she got another, I would get one on my backside. She did, so I did. A bumblebee. (It sounded the right place to put it). That cured the problem. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made to make a point. A small price to pay - could have got me disfellowshipped now it seems…..taken to the back room to have my back side perused! 🤣
 
I do not like it either how those front page updates almost always has quotes from UN or other officials that have already been proven to be phony but the mainstream media props them up. If a fellow JW wanted to spread the news and actually say the honest truth about what's going on in the world. He would be criticized for talking about so called conspiracy theories when those conspiracy theories ended up being correct. I remember trying to witness to an employee of mine and he learned I was against women's rights to abortion and that I didn't agree on same sex marriage. Even though I never voted, he called me a Trump supporter, just for having those beliefs. He was a hardcore leftist. At that point I realized he was a lost cause and stopped witnessing to him. He also caused the most drama at work but now that he got fired, there has been very little drama since. Thank Jehovah for that.

Know your battles and when to walk away.
 
Soul Sage said:
I do not like it either how those front page updates almost always has quotes from UN or other officials that have already been proven to be phony but the mainstream media props them up. If a fellow JW wanted to spread the news and actually say the honest truth about what's going on in the world. He would be criticized for talking about so called conspiracy theories when those conspiracy theories ended up being correct. I remember trying to witness to an employee of mine and he learned I was against women's rights to abortion and that I didn't agree on same sex marriage. Even though I never voted, he called me a Trump supporter, just for having those beliefs. He was a hardcore leftist. At that point I realized he was a lost cause and stopped witnessing to him. He also caused the most drama at work but now that he got fired, there has been very little drama since. Thank Jehovah for that.

Know your battles and when to walk away.
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Totally agree with all you said, and that's pretty much why I can't go to the kingdom hall and I can't go out on the ministry anymore. I actually experienced the conspiracy nut thing soon after the cart work started back up again. I was trying to witness to some guy who knew all about the scamdemic, agenda 21/25/30 etc and I was trying to reassure him that I knew exactly what he was trying to tell me, and how Jehovah is going to intervene etc. A sister who was manning the cart got really angry with me, practically called me and apostate and told me to go away 🤷🤐
 
Nomex said:
So, let me refresh everyone about this JW letters. It is a Facebook group, a private group, as if I need to say that, that was started after Covid began and the Kingdom Hall shut downs. My wife joined it back in the beginning, and I think I did too eventually, but I managed to get kicked off pretty quick after finding this place. Any way, I am glad my wife is still on it, because it's like having a finger on the pulse of what's going on with the R&F. Needless to say, the whole clicking glasses was not the first time there has been controversy on there, but this one for whatever reason has really brought out the worst in them.

So, with Update #4, there has been a number of posts. One I mentioned in another thread, was someone asked if they could link to the video, the one about man made rules and was dragged over the coals, because of their man made rules about posting links...so there was back and forth over that.

While I relate these things I want you guys to think about that scripture where Jesus said, "you'd know my disciples if they have love among themselves."

So one in particular was someone asking basically, how is this is any different, or is it different, than saying "bless you" after someone sneezes. The back and forth was exactly what we would all expect. And it just devolved from there.

Another person mentioned Christmas and Birthdays. When listening to Lett's talk about how "the meanings have changed", well that's what worldly people have been saying about Christmas as long as I was old enough to remember. This sister, was basically pointing that out. She said she didn't understand it, and it was basically, the same argument people were making about "bless you."

Let me point something out before I go on. First let me say what is obvious, the day before Lett's talk, clinking glasses was NOT a conscience matter!!! Hold that thought!

This poor sister really had the riot act read to her. I asked my wife to read me what she wrote, because what I am about to say, you'd think she said something that we say here it sounded like she was fed up, had enough, but none of us are stupid, and we know exactly how it would be received, so we keep our months shut, that is unless we have decided, not to take the cowards way out, like I have, and not made it widely known where I stand. In any case, she wasn't even in the same ball park. Basically what happened is she kept saying, "I don't understand this doesn't make any sense and how is this any different than Christmas." One of the admins, a sister, BTW, these are all public posts to anyone who's a member there. One admin talked down to her like you wouldn't believe. And I'm just using that expression, but I know we will all believe it, we have all experienced it. But the point is, it shouldn't be happening. Oh also, their answer was basically, "Bro, Lett already answered it." "Did you watched the video". "You need to watch it again." And then it devolved from there to more personal attacks.

One admin made a post, asking three questions, I can't remember exactly, but it was something like this, "are you bringing this up just to started trouble," Are you mocking the GB", Etc, use your JW world imagination, and you'll be very close. In addition, the brother who started the page, made a red sticky, with the sisters name and profile pic, calling her out, saying the admins needed to talk to her privately, they already sent her a private massage, and you need to go to your Elders" (I think). The "go to your Elders" was in one of the many posts.

In the midst of all this, here's where we get into the "mother turning on daughter, father on son, vice versa, etc. Then they got into the horrible treatment so many of them have witnessed and experienced themselves, all with the justification for the treatment, as well as people condemning it, but they never really go all the way. Here's two of the experiences. These two, were both Bible studies. (I must say, I am posting all this from memory, so take the whole thing as one huge composite, because I am almost certainly mixing one story together with another, but that's okay, because it's all the same theme. But just wanted to make sure I clarified that.)

So one was a sister studying with her bible student, who had tattoos. Keep in mind this is a bible student, not some JW who grew up in the truth left and came back, now they have to live with JW judgement. Not that that's OK either, but this is almost unfathomable...OK no it's not...I guess I wish it was unfathomable!

So a sister follows this girl into the bathroom and tells her about tattoo make up to cover up her tattoo. I think they said it was between her shoulder blades, and if the dress was low cut enough in the back...I told my wife, "the only thing she needed to cover up her tattoo, was "love." "Love covers over a multitude of sins." But there is no love. The icing on the cake. She left and has never been back.

Next one just like it, a bible study, starts studying and she has dreadlocks. She progressing nicely, then some sister during a Watchtower study that had nothing to do what so ever with grooming, raises her hand and works dreadlocks into her comment...she also left and never came back. She even said, that they saw her cart "witnessing" and she pretended not to see them. I want to say here; WHAT DO YOU THINK Jehovah feels about this crap? If it bothers us I can only imagine.

Then there were more experiences, going back to the 70's how "I had a family member that happened to too, and they left in the 70's and so far have never come back." (No wonder WT is saying some can repent during the GT, they have driven so many people out. Do they subconsciously think that will save them?)

Going back to the question about how is clicking glasses different than other things that have had the meaning changed. I came to realize two things on that page. They could NOT elaborate in any way, and I'm going to get into why in just a second, but I also noticed, how defensive they really are.

I mentioned this also,what the GB has done, I do not think they have any understanding what so ever. Claiming this is a "conscience matter" is a total lie, and I am going to prove it. First of all, the GB has a very big problem on there hands, because they have never delineated, what makes "paganism" bad. They have hinted at it, and it's is "understood" but they have proven they do NOT even begin to understand. First of all, if it is a "conscience matter" it's ALWAYS been a conscience matter. If someone tells you it a "conscience matter" that is NOT YOUR CONSCIENCE, it's HIS conscience telling you it is a conscience matter. Let me put it this a way. For something to be a conscience matter you first have to define what that is, which WT has done a descent job in that regard, but that's only part of it. You next have to define what Bible principles that would apply that would make something displeasing to Jehovah. "Pagan roots" does NOT really do that. The problem is what those pagan roots represent, which is worship of demons.

So what constitutes worship? Well, I think you can argue, saying "bless you" is in fact a "blessing" so who are you asking to bless someone? Clinking glasses on the other hand was part of the ritualistic worship of false gods. So the act itself was the worship. Can you argue that is a conscience matter? I'm not sure you can because if you know that is what it is, then can you still claim the meaning has changed? To who? Because to me it's sounds more like, "the meaning has changed because people don't know that's what it represents anymore, and they aren't doing it for that reason." I'm just not sure if you can still claim that is a conscience matter.

But here's my over arching point. In order to establish something as a "conscience matter" you cannot single any ONE thing out. It's a total contradiction. What he is really saying, is, "it is a conscience matter as to when you can or cannot clink glasses." That's not doing them any favors either. But again how do you single out one thing like this? You cannot go back and say retroactively, "oh this is now a conscience matter." BTW, it's the same thing with beards etc. Oh, wait I forgot, "the light keeps getting brighter". Brighter than what? I guess a match is brighter than total darkness.

If you are saying, "this one thing is now a conscience matter" but leave everything else up in the air. It's a complete farce. If they were actually trying to establish certain things as being a conscience matter, then you do what I am suggesting, which is, you define what pagan worship entails, including blessings, that may be attributed to the act of worshiping pagan gods, what did Satan say to Jesus, "if you'll do an act of worship to me..." and then you delineate what you would have to EXCLUDE, that would allow you to participate in said "conscience matter." But I don't know how you can exclude the part that represents an act of worship, the spillage from clicking glasses is considered as a "small offering" to the gods. So, in my mind I just don't know how the "meaning has changed". Just cause people don't know what it means, doesn't mean it doesn't mean that.

Finally, I'll say this about the clicking glasses. I don't really think it's a big deal, but WT sure made it one. Does Jehovah really care about this crap? Let me put it like this. How much of this old system is going to be carried over into Jehovah's system? Not much is my guess. Here's my point, I'm sure there's a LOT of things Jehovah doesn't approve of, but we live for the time being in Satan's system. We have NOT been taken out of it...yet. I'm not saying we just willy nilly do whatever...what I am saying, is if we are mature Christians, and I haven't seen a single one over at JW Letters, but that seems to be a well kept secret over there, but if we are, we decide for ourselves based on how we as individuals understand the Bible and what Jehovah requires of us. We, answer individually to Jehovah. If Jehovah has a problem with anything the GB are doing, what is the answer going to be from the R&F to Jehovah? "Jehovah we didn't know what we were doing was wrong we were just doing what your faithful and discreet slave told us to do." I mean this is literally what's going on over there right now. The answer to anyone questioning this "update" is, "are you questioning the Governing Body?" Exactly like the "apostate" portrayal in this years "drama". On the other hand, if we in good faith can approach Jehovah and make a good argument, why we believed a certain thing this way or that, and we are humble, if we are wrong, Jehovah will simply correct us, at the proper time. And it's our reaction to that discipline that matters. Again, I am not saying ignore your Bible trained conscience, just the opposite, use it, but make sure you know why you've made your decision, and it should NEVER be because of something the GB or anyone else tells you to do.

...which brings me to the buried talent.

That one just speaks to me for some reason. It really illustrates how instead of disbursing "food at the proper time", they have buried it. They have put the lamp under the table. As @SusanB pointed out, everything going on in the world, and this is what passes for "food at the proper time." Oh and JW Letters are convinced of it too. "The light keeps getting brighter." But there is good news, someone else over there basically said, "this is what passes for the light getting brighter." They weren't quite that obvious, but it's boiling to the surface and you can tell. Yesterday I was listening to one of the many alternative news sources I follow. I am actually informed. We are actually Awake! Instead of there stupid made up self important "Updates" they could have brothers covering the news of the day. Actual news. Not corporate shill news. Maybe if they were paying attention, dare I say it, AWAKE, then maybe, no not maybe, for sure they would have embraced Robert, and they would be fully informed and awake, and they might even know who the KOTN actually is. Instead they cozy up with the U.N. Makes perfect sense to me. And lots of quotes from the UN, UN ambassadors, you name it, they quote people, and you dig deep enough, and you find a direct connection from those people to Satan's Kingdoms. But if you wanted to figure out what was going in in the world, you'd try to find sources that at least seemed removed somewhat from Satan's ruling and lying Elite! But instead WT has buried their talent! You can see they are already saying, ‘Master, I knew you to be a demanding* man, reaping where you did not sow and gathering where you did not winnow." When Flegale said, "do we owe you an apology? No you mindless minions, and morons we know that's how Jehovah does things, its not OUR fault it's is Jehovah's doing, of course. Now shut up and do what we say, even if it makes no sense. But Especially if it makes no sense!!"

There I think I have out done myself with this one. That was one epic "wobbly rant."!!! I hope everyone enjoys it, I enjoyed writing it. Well as much as you can with this subject matter! Oh, and if you made it this far, thanks for reading. That's the least I can say to those that made it this far!!!!
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Wow Nom some crazy goings on with those folks. Thanks for this.

I wonder if the gb ever thinks 'Oh What A Tangled Web We (have) Weave(d)'...............

Now how do we get outta this.

What a mess.

Anyway, I just find it so exhausting all the nonsense that has been going on inside the org for years. I think back on the years when as a young witness, I was caught up in some of the nonsense until I learned better. I imagine we all at some point believed and did things we were taught until we did some research and said "WHAT THE, NO WAY".

Anyway we did our research and know better now.
However, I will just end this by saying WT does not make crazy changes that we may not understand from a human standpoint (Where have we heard that before) for no reason. Whatever their twisted reasoning is.

So those witnesses who hold on to every word the gb says as coming from Jehovah will continue to gobble up every word on these silly changes and keep on going.

Thanks again for sharing Nom.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
For an issue to be a matter of conscience, surely the bible provides an answer in that it advises those with maturity in learning not to stumble such ones struggling over peripheral ‘scriptural’ ephemera. The critical factor being the potential to maturity in immature ones to attain to maturity and put away such things. Paul: “when I was a child I behaved as a child, but I have put away such things….” Pardon my appalling memory in quoting.

Secondly, there is a responsibility upon all of us to be certain of our facts. One such example you raise Nomex is that the clinking of glasses was demonic practice - probably so, but history also states that it was to ensure that the liquids mixed by spilling over into the other’s glass, therefore poisoning was ruled out from the drink offered. I.e., clinking glasses was a figure of trust. Who is to say? So it’s best just to leave it.

Then there is the biblical advice to be tolerant of such minor issues in the interests of not stumbling that one over things that do not matter and that as you rightly point out, will correct themselves.

What provides balance is the scripture to “not strain at the gnat and swallow the camel”, which as others have pointed out directly, is something that the governing body are obliged to do because they have no insight into the meat of the word any longer. It seems their job was to preach the word and to leave the rest to that person to grow in their relationship with Jehovah - rather like the old “match-makers”; women that would search out suitable partners for a bride on her behalf - and they still do in India. It was up to the couple to “make it work”. And they do scripturally because they come to “recognise the voice”. It is the voice then that leads them, not the milk of the word, or the watchtower trivia, but Jehovah. Is that not so? What does this site do if not open the door to a far greater understanding than what is written in it? That is the Holy Spirit is it not, dishing out “understanding and the wisdom to perceive it”. “In all that you acquire, acquire wisdom.”

That winder is of the impression that he and his fellows “know how Jehovah teaches” and that they “owe no apology” for getting it wrong, is not only a contradiction in terms but in my opinion, wrongly observed. Jehovah appears to reveal Himself to “whom He chooses” “according to our needs”. Perhaps this is what Jehovah means by “Acquire understanding” in that we “listen to the voice.” Does not prayer give us all an ethereal understanding of Jehovah in our revealing to Him our true selves? Do we not grow spiritually in our understanding in that our heart motivation appears insightful of the meanings involved in ‘love” ‘justice’, ‘empathy’ insight and thus understanding of the greater values of the Spirit that are not written, but come to dwell within the heart according to our own faith in understanding the Word? Is this not what faith is in its foundation - a relationship with our creator? Jehovah. Is it not referred to for some as a ‘marriage”. It is indeed.

It is these things that we recognise in each other. It has no place with beards, tattoos or clinking cups. The Spirit transcends these things and appeals to the heart, the soul; the gift of life that is part of Jehovah and returns to Him at our passing. When one reaches into this cup of spirituality, the simplistic ramblings of those straining at the gnat hardly warrant a thought. Nothing but the revelation of Christ will awaken them from that - we know that in that they have been floundering about like fish on the sea shore since they invented their own Sanhedrin and called it the governing body.

As for tattoos. My wife went through a phase of that. I said to her in the end that if she got another, I would get one on my backside. She did, so I did. A bumblebee. (It sounded the right place to put it). That cured the problem. Sometimes sacrifices have to be made to make a point. A small price to pay - could have got me disfellowshipped now it seems…..taken to the back room to have my back side perused! 🤣
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Sometimes I never know if you're joking or being serious Barney!!! If you really did get a tattoo on yer bum the elders would never have found out 😅
 
Needless to say, Jehovah knows what is going on. He knew a few thousand years ago. He knows people have an inborn tendency to follow men, aka idolatry. That is especially the case when we have the apostolic order to be obedient to those taking the lead. So, it is natural for JWs to unquestioningly follow the rules of those whom Jehovah unflatteringly calls "the dictators of Sodom." But God has the remedy. It will come down to a clearly delineated point of decision that will require everyone who imagines that they are "in the truth" to decide whether to believe the Bible or the Watchtower. Seems like a no-brainer, right? Unfortunately, many will make the wrong decision. Jesus said so: "Many will be stumbled."

But how will God force this life and death decision? By causing prophecy to be fulfilled in an undeniable way, in a manner that the Watchtower claims is impossible. Jehovah has even kindly given Jehovah's Witnesses an insider's tip through the New World Translation. After all, most of the popular translations do not use the expression "peace and security" and so they lack resonance. "Peace and security" is the official parlance of the political system and is embedded in the United Nations. For example, here is a recent headline: United Nations Command Marks 75 years Supporting Peace and Security on Korean Peninsula

How will their saying "peace and security" discredit the Watchtower? Because the "sudden destruction" to follow will be manifest as World War Three, something the WT claims cannot happen since the sign of Christ's presence has been in evidence since the outbreak of WWI in 1914.

If we but read the context of Paul's extraordinary prophecy, it should be evident to any honest-reasoning searcher that the apostle was foretelling that Christ's presence and his descending from heaven with the commanding voice of an archangel will come as a thief in the night, signalled by their saying "peace and security." The Watchtower will not be able to spin it, try, though, they might.
 
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Proverbs 14 v 15 said:
Sometimes I never know if you're joking or being serious Barney!!! If you really did get a tattoo on yer bum the elders would never have found out 😅
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I was telling the truth on that one Proverbs. I’m sure someone would have found out!! They follow you into hospital now don’t they!? I actually have my appendix tattooed!! Surgeons are apparently obliged to “show where they have been” with their knives when investigating. Enough said!! 🤣🤣
 
Watchtower just loves to be the rule masters. They excel at creating phobias that boarder on superstition. Women shouldn't wear pants, now women can wear pants, beards are bad, beards are fine. No clinking classes, now let's clink away. Some rules make sense. Some stuff is clearly a violation. Adultery, fornication, murder, etc. But then they use being no part of this world to extrapolate rules to the nth degree, often far beyond what the bible says. In a way, it's not much different from the Jewish system of rules. Following all the rules of Watchtower becomes a status symbol. It gives them a smug sense of superiority.
 
Jahrule said:
Watchtower just loves to be the rule masters. They excel at creating phobias that boarder on superstition. Women shouldn't wear pants, now women can wear pants, beards are bad, beards are fine. No clinking classes, now let's clink away. Some rules make sense. Some stuff is clearly a violation. Adultery, fornication, murder, etc. But then they use being no part of this world to extrapolate rules to the nth degree, often far beyond what the bible says. In a way, it's not much different from the Jewish system of rules. Following all the rules of Watchtower becomes a status symbol. It gives them a smug sense of superiority.
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/\ /\ /\ Another "NAILED IT" moment on this forum by Brother @Jahrule. That line about superstition is so completely right on. @SusanB has a lot to say on that very subject.
 
Proverbs 14 v 15 said:
Totally agree with all you said, and that's pretty much why I can't go to the kingdom hall and I can't go out on the ministry anymore. I actually experienced the conspiracy nut thing soon after the cart work started back up again. I was trying to witness to some guy who knew all about the scamdemic, agenda 21/25/30 etc and I was trying to reassure him that I knew exactly what he was trying to tell me, and how Jehovah is going to intervene etc. A sister who was manning the cart got really angry with me, practically called me and apostate and told me to go away
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I fear those scenes when I come back, I can't keep my mouth shut either
 
Jahrule said:
Watchtower just loves to be the rule masters. They excel at creating phobias that boarder on superstition. Women shouldn't wear pants, now women can wear pants, beards are bad, beards are fine. No clinking classes, now let's clink away. Some rules make sense. Some stuff is clearly a violation. Adultery, fornication, murder, etc. But then they use being no part of this world to extrapolate rules to the nth degree, often far beyond what the bible says. In a way, it's not much different from the Jewish system of rules. Following all the rules of Watchtower becomes a status symbol. It gives them a smug sense of superiority.
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Well if anyone is working on the “straight and narrow” pathway Jahrule, then it’s you. Several thousand miles of it so it seems. Keep on waking up all those thousands of sleepers along the track and rail them into line towards their station in life.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
Well if anyone is working on the “straight and narrow” pathway Jahrule, then it’s you. Several thousand miles of it so it seems. Keep on waking up all those thousands of sleepers along the track and rail them into line towards their station in life.
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It certainly doesn't feel that way sometimes. This world really beats us down, but I am sure Jah is with us. The only way to keep going, even when we fall, even when we fail to understand, is to rely on Jah. Christ will guide us to him. I pray we can all someday soon be truly free.

BrooksB said:
/\ /\ /\ Another "NAILED IT" moment on this forum by Brother @Jahrule. That line about superstition is so completely right on. @SusanB has a lot to say on that very subject.
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Thank you both for your encouragement. Our faith is greater than rules and tradition.
 
Jahrule said:
Watchtower just loves to be the rule masters. They excel at creating phobias that boarder on superstition. Women shouldn't wear pants, now women can wear pants, beards are bad, beards are fine. No clinking classes, now let's clink away. Some rules make sense. Some stuff is clearly a violation. Adultery, fornication, murder, etc. But then they use being no part of this world to extrapolate rules to the nth degree, often far beyond what the bible says. In a way, it's not much different from the Jewish system of rules. Following all the rules of Watchtower becomes a status symbol. It gives them a smug sense of superiority.
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You can say that again Jahrule. Their rule making sure gives them a SMUG sense of SUPERIORITY. I know we have all seen it in action. Oh the things we have seen from back in the day. I know we have stories.
 
Deborah said:
You can say that again Jahrule. Their rule making sure gives them a SMUG sense of SUPERIORITY. I know we have all seen it in action. Oh the things we have seen from back in the day. I know we have stories.
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Very true, but it is only felt by them. Everyone with a modicum of insight must be sighing with despair. There must be millions of witnesses worried to death over the antics of the gb. Clinking glasses?!! Is that their degree of insight? Surely satan is mocking them.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
Well if anyone is working on the “straight and narrow” pathway Jahrule, then it’s you. Several thousand miles of it so it seems. Keep on waking up all those thousands of sleepers along the track and rail them into line towards their station in life.
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Si, a veces me gusta imaginármelo reparando vías cantando ritmos como esas work songs...⛏️🎶⛏️🎶⛏️🎶🤣😘
 
Jahrule said:
that boarder on superstition.
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This is why I coined the phrase, "JW Ghost stories." They are a kind of superstition. That and every little thing is the demons. They blame every thing on the demons, and they use the Bible like a vending machine. It's "time and unforeseen occurrence" when they say it is, other wise its the demons. I knew one brother who had convinced himself, he had figured out how many demons Satan was using per JW! Think about the arrogance that takes?
 
Nomex said:
This is why I coined the phrase, "JW Ghost stories." They are a kind of superstition. That and every little thing is the demons. They blame every thing on the demons, and they use the Bible like a vending machine. It's "time and unforeseen occurrence" when they say it is, other wise its the demons. I knew one brother who had convinced himself, he had figured out how many demons Satan was using per JW! Think about the arrogance that takes?
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Oh yeah don't get me started on JW superstition. Does anybody remember the huge issue with the smurfs?
 
Jahrule said:
Oh yeah don't get me started on JW superstition. Does anybody remember the huge issue with the smurfs?
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Si, 😂😂😂. Habia tantas cosas prohibidas!
Jahrule said:
Watchtower just loves to be the rule masters. They excel at creating phobias that boarder on superstition. Women shouldn't wear pants, now women can wear pants, beards are bad, beards are fine. No clinking classes, now let's clink away. Some rules make sense. Some stuff is clearly a violation. Adultery, fornication, murder, etc. But then they use being no part of this world to extrapolate rules to the nth degree, often far beyond what the bible says. In a way, it's not much different from the Jewish system of rules. Following all the rules of Watchtower becomes a status symbol. It gives them a smug sense of superiority.
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Ellos quieren reinar ya en su plenitud y maltratan al rebaño. Mateo24: 48- ”Mas si alguna vez aquel esclavo malo dijera en su corazón: ‘Mi amo se tarda’, 49 y comenzara a golpear a sus coesclavos, y comiera y bebiera con los borrachos inveterados, 50 vendrá el amo de aquel esclavo en un día que no espera y a una hora que no sabe, 51 y lo castigará con la mayor severidad y le asignará su parte con los hipócritas. Allí es donde será [su] llanto y el crujir de [sus] dientes.
 
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