MANY CALLED, FEW CHOSEN

[Goldie]

Just to take one example in its proper context.

At the time of item one above, Jesus was talking with his disciples. Context is critical when reading the Bible. They were, or rather, were going to be anointed, and the context of the Bible goes on to demonstrate the anointed class of the 144,000. Why would Jesus “choose them” if not for a reason. How did he choose them? What insight was he looking for? They had purpose beyond their mere choosing did they not? Even the one that betrayed him.
Surely they were a separate group of people with a given destiny “to rule as kings with Jesus”. These men were given the Holy Spirit to heal people even before they were anointed, the issue of the anointing was discussed with them at the last supper. “I will not drink this again until…..” when? They are gathered together in heaven.
There is also a significant difference in that the anointed must remain faithful to death because they will die to receive the gift as did Jesus. That is not required of the great crowd at the end times in its full necessity, only to stay loyal even to the test of it. It is a symbolic issue that may actually apply. No one will be certain until life is granted to continue. Thus the values of the test are the same, if not the outcome - just are the values in our faith are accepted as “different” because we “are not tested beyond what we can endure.” Thus Jehovah’s love for us evident and tolerant of our fears with insight into our heartfelt feelings.

Likewise in the section of ‘Partaking”, anointing is not a decision of the anointed to take up the gift, it is an imposed gift to be of use to Jehovah. It is a ‘calling’, not a personal decision. As the Bible makes note; “many are called, few are chosen.” How that applies I don’t know as I’m not anointed, but clearly, as was shown to the gathered disciples in the upper room, it entails a sense of awareness. It is the responsibility of the anointed to recognise the calling by responding to it. That is why few are chosen as faithfulness to the calling must be demonstrated. It is termed as a hope, but to materialise a ‘hope’ one must work to make it happen. At what point it becomes a reality in their sense of being will come to them before they die for it, because that is its price. Perhaps that point is reflected in the example that Jesus put upon his disciples to go healing the sick and preaching the Word on their own during his ministry.

It’s difficult to seek meaning in the scripture if we follow our own needs for spiritual satiation in our personal feelings. We must allow the scripture to speak to us, rather than try to fit it to fulfil our own needs. If we do so, we are open to find the satiation in peace that we seek because we listen to the spirit, rather than ourselves. The greater our spirituality, the less we are concerned by our own needs - even to the point of death

Thanks Barn, I agree with your point that anointing is a calling, not a personal decision. And you quoted "many are called, few are chosen."
But, like you said, let's consider the context. In Matt 22:1-14 Jesus told of a king who invited many to a wedding feast. That invitation is the call. Many were invited. But one guest refused to wear the wedding garment, and others refused to come at all. So they were not allowed to stay. Only those who responded and were properly dressed were "chosen" to stay.
So "called" means Jehovah gives us an opportunity. "Chosen" means we respond with faith and remain faithful to the end. Jesus himself said: "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt 24:13)
I don't think it means the calling is only for the anointed. It means for BOTH hopes, heavenly and earthly, many hear the good news but only those faithful to death will be finally chosen for life.

That is why the emblems cannot mean "I claim to be a chosen king."

The emblems mean what Jesus said: "this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt 26:28 NWT)

And Jesus said: "Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves." (John 6:53 NWT)

Paul told the whole congregation: "First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and only then let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup." (1 Cor 11:28 NWT) The requirement is a clean conscience, not a heavenly calling.

At Passover all had to eat the lamb (Ex 12:8). The priests had a different assignment, but the same lamb.

Where we live — heaven or earth — is Jehovah's decision to call and finally choose us for. But having faith in the Lamb's blood is required of all who want life.

Just something to consider.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Thanks Barn, I agree with your point that anointing is a calling, not a personal decision. And you quoted "many are called, few are chosen."
But, like you said, let's consider the context. In Matt 22:1-14 Jesus told of a king who invited many to a wedding feast. That invitation is the call. Many were invited. But one guest refused to wear the wedding garment, and others refused to come at all. So they were not allowed to stay. Only those who responded and were properly dressed were "chosen" to stay.
So "called" means Jehovah gives us an opportunity. "Chosen" means we respond with faith and remain faithful to the end. Jesus himself said: "he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." (Matt 24:13)
I don't think it means the calling is only for the anointed. It means for BOTH hopes, heavenly and earthly, many hear the good news but only those faithful to death will be finally chosen for life.

That is why the emblems cannot mean "I claim to be a chosen king."

The emblems mean what Jesus said: "this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’ which is to be poured out in behalf of many for forgiveness of sins." (Matt 26:28 NWT)

And Jesus said: "Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves." (John 6:53 NWT)
Paul told the whole congregation: "First let a man approve himself after scrutiny, and only then let him eat of the loaf and drink of the cup." (1 Cor 11:28 NWT)
At Passover all had to eat the lamb (Ex 12:8). The priests had a different assignment, but the same lamb.
Where we live — heaven or earth — is Jehovah's decision to call and finally choose us for. But having faith in the Lamb's blood is required of all who want life.

Just something to consider.

Thanks for this Goldie - certainly one way to look at it.
Does it not depend on to whom Jesus was addressing? It raises questions in my mind. Not only to whom Jesus was addressing, but why divide between them and the great crowd that was not at that time extant? What does it mean then that the message first went to the Israelites? How do we explain that division?

The other question is what does “eat of my flesh and drink my blood” refer to? To me it infers to travel the same path as Jesus. That could be assumed of us all I agree - but it is only to the anointed that the certainty of death is applied, though in spiritual terms, the willingness to choose death above the challenge of satan is something for us all to consider, not for the sake of sacrifice - as that has already been paid, but for love of what is righteous and our own salvation.

Then there is the issue of where that figurative drinking of wine will take place and the fact of why there is a select number - clearly then it is not open to all. So why should the symbolism of that acceptance be open to all? What meaning does it have if it applies to everyone. Why must we “take hold of the skirt” so to speak, of others?

Then one has to consider the satanic challenge and to who it applies along with how the answer is given. To suggest that its answer is an overkill is probably a pun too far. But it is in fact answered by 144,000 faithful ones demonstrating with their lives that they choose the Creator over themselves in the right to determine what is good and what is not. An answer then to the challenge.

That must demand total acquiescence to law - to give a life for the sake of its meaning. There is a group though that are, by their faith liken unto theirs, that is deserving of mercy. They are called the great crowd and they inhabit the earth.

As I said, I am not of the anointed or given understanding of it over the principles of the Bible that I feel in this case, I may have a modicum of understanding upon. Yet the Bible shows there is this exclusive destiny for those chosen to it. Of that I have no concept, only that of the existence I know of. Given that division, I can grasp the meaning of the separation of those two classes and how it may be demonstrated in the above manner. I think it wise to accept what is written, above my desire to be certain of what is written only in line with my personal needs. I’m comfortable with leaving my degree of understanding to what I am given to understand. Maybe discuss it with those here that have a better grasp of it than I do. I’m rather black and white in my thinking.

 

[Goldie]

Thanks for this Goldie - certainly one way to look at it.
Does it not depend on to whom Jesus was addressing? It raises questions in my mind. Not only to whom Jesus was addressing, but why divide between them and the great crowd that was not at that time extant? What does it mean then that the message first went to the Israelites? How do we explain that division?

The other question is what does “eat of my flesh and drink my blood” refer to? To me it infers to travel the same path as Jesus. That could be assumed of us all I agree - but it is only to the anointed that the certainty of death is applied, though in spiritual terms, the willingness to choose death above the challenge of satan is something for us all to consider, not for the sake of sacrifice - as that has already been paid, but for love of what is righteous and our own salvation.

Then there is the issue of where that figurative drinking of wine will take place and the fact of why there is a select number - clearly then it is not open to all. So why should the symbolism of that acceptance be open to all? What meaning does it have if it applies to everyone. Why must we “take hold of the skirt” so to speak, of others?

Then one has to consider the satanic challenge and to who it applies along with how the answer is given. To suggest that its answer is an overkill is probably a pun too far. But it is in fact answered by 144,000 faithful ones demonstrating with their lives that they choose the Creator over themselves in the right to determine what is good and what is not. An answer then to the challenge.

That must demand total acquiescence to law - to give a life for the sake of its meaning. There is a group though that are, by their faith liken unto theirs, that is deserving of mercy. They are called the great crowd and they inhabit the earth.

As I said, I am not of the anointed or given understanding of it over the principles of the Bible that I feel in this case, I may have a modicum of understanding upon. Yet the Bible shows there is this exclusive destiny for those chosen to it. Of that I have no concept, only that of the existence I know of. Given that division, I can grasp the meaning of the separation of those two classes and how it may be demonstrated in the above manner. I think it wise to accept what is written, above my desire to be certain of what is written only in line with my personal needs. I’m comfortable with leaving my degree of understanding to what I am given to understand. Maybe discuss it with those here that have a better grasp of it than I do. I’m rather black and white in my thinking.

Boy, you're sure keeping me on my toes. And these are all questions I've asked myself.
This is why I think it's good to deeply dive into topics such as these on this forum, to be like the Bereans and check all things, including what we have been taught by WT and to solidify our faith in what truth is. I'm a truth seeker. This is all I want — TRUTH — and I'm willing to change my opinion if the scriptures point me in another direction.

You asked to whom Jesus was speaking. When Jesus said "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life" in John 6, the great crowd as a group wasn't gathered yet, but his disciples were there, and many of those disciples were not going to be kings. They were just people who needed life, like us. And he said "you have NO life in yourselves" if you don't eat and drink. That has to include all who want life, doesn't it?

You asked about Israel first, then division. I think of it like Passover again. First it was only Israel, then the mixed crowd joined them and also had to eat the lamb to be saved. Same lamb, bigger family.

You said eating his flesh means traveling the same path as Jesus, even to death. I agree we all need to be willing to die for righteousness like Job did. Job wasn't anointed to be a king, but he answered Satan's challenge. So did Noah, Abraham. So I think the challenge is answered by all faithful, not just 144,000. The 144,000 have a special assignment as kings and priests to help, but the challenge was about whether ANY human would stay loyal.

You asked why take hold of the skirt if we all partake? Zech 8:23 says ten men will take hold of the skirt of a Jew saying "we will go with you." Taking hold doesn't mean not eating the same lamb — at Passover the foreign resident who joined Israel also ate the lamb (Ex 12:49). Taking hold means joining their worship of Jehovah, which includes showing faith in the same blood.

You asked why have a select number if the symbolism is for all? To me the number is select for a job — ruling as kings. The job is limited, the need for forgiveness is not.

That's just how I see it and I definitely can be wrong. But like you I'm comfortable leaving it in Jehovah's hands as well.

 

[Nomex]

"this means my ‘blood of the covenant,’

I will say there is some question about this issue and I am not sure where I stand, other than for now, I'm will not partake, I am not of the anointed, and until one of the anointed who has been sealed and has these matters "opened up" kind of like when Jesus was baptized, I realize that was not the same thing, but I like to think it conveys the same idea. But in the above quote Jesus says, "the covenant". That particular covenant was with he anointed, however, as I like to point out, Adam did NOT lose the right to live forever in heaven, or go to heaven at all for that matter, so Jesus life blood was literally poured out in behalf of the children of Adam that Jesus adopted. Certainly, his sacrifice open the way for the anointed to them to be "Kings and Priests" along side Jesus in heaven, but Jesus was the "second Adam", his life he gave up took the place of the life Adam lost.

However, there is another clue I simply cannot ignore either, even though there still seems to be some ambiguity regarding the matter, but then there is this...

"Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves."

Only Christ brothers who are sealed and die faithfully, "have life in themselves." However, that is not the same thing as saying "only Christ brothers must eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood"...there does not seem to be a definitive article in my way of thinking that explicitly says, one way or the other what should be done. But out of respect for the arrangement, as I said I will not partake unless and until I have something more definitive to change my mind.

 

[SusanB]

Con lo fácil que es tener paz en un foro donde puedes bloquear. Hay quien lo considera un sacrilegio, yo no puedo estar más en desacuerdo. Es más, me encantaría que fuese posible en la vida real. Snifff...no se puede tener todo!!
Recuerdo lo bien que me sentí cuando bloqueé entre otros a Me gusta la pizza. ¿Quién osaria a ponerse un nombre así en un foro de debate bíblico? Ajajja, suelo acordarme de el o de ella cuando la como una. Me produce una gran sonrisa. Que atrevidos son algunos!
Menos mal que tenemos la esperanza de que el conocimiento sea abundante en un futuro próximo, porque aquí han llegado personas de lo más variopintas queriendo dar luz a otros y han terminado dando pereza.
Que Jesús se presentará a sus elegidos y no a los que sólo dicen serlo es la seguridad que más tranquilidad me produce con respecto al futuro, entonces se habrán terminado los charlatanes. Los que amén la verdad tendrán ese conocimiento exacto. En esta elección divina no habrá fallo alguno y serán los que gobiernen la Tierra. ¿Recordaremos con nostalgia este foro? Puede que si o puede que no, pero que compañía nos está habiendo.

Pd: Nosotros, los mortales, solo tenemos que mantener viva la esperanza! Abrazo mi querida Susan!

I’m hugging you back!!

 

[SusanB]

I will say there is some question about this issue and I am not sure where I stand, other than for now, I'm will not partake, I am not of the anointed, and until one of the anointed who has been sealed and has these matters "opened up" kind of like when Jesus was baptized, I realize that was not the same thing, but I like to think it conveys the same idea. But in the above quote Jesus says, "the covenant". That particular covenant was with he anointed, however, as I like to point out, Adam did NOT lose the right to live forever in heaven, or go to heaven at all for that matter, so Jesus life blood was literally poured out in behalf of the children of Adam that Jesus adopted. Certainly, his sacrifice open the way for the anointed to them to be "Kings and Priests" along side Jesus in heaven, but Jesus was the "second Adam", his life he gave up took the place of the life Adam lost.

However, there is another clue I simply cannot ignore either, even though there still seems to be some ambiguity regarding the matter, but then there is this...

Only Christ brothers who are sealed and die faithfully, "have life in themselves." However, that is not the same thing as saying "only Christ brothers must eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood"...there does not seem to be a definitive article in my way of thinking that explicitly says, one way or the other what should be done. But out of respect for the arrangement, as I said I will not partake unless and until I have something more definitive to change my mind.

These scriptures really pertain to eating food that might be considered unclean, but I think the principle that it teaches can apply to partaking at the Memorial as well. We should not use someone else’s conscience as the foundation of our faith. We must investigate the scriptures and either come to our own honest (prayerful) reasoning or wait until we have more information before acting on it. From “The Message Bible”, Romans 14:22-23: “Cultivate your own relationship with God, but don’t impose it on others. You’re fortunate if your behavior and your belief are coherent. But if you’re not sure, if you notice that you are acting in ways inconsistent with what you believe—some days trying to impose your opinions on others, other days just trying to please them—then you know that you’re out of line. If the way you live isn’t consistent with what you believe, then it’s wrong.”

The Good News Translation, Romans 14:22-23: “Keep what you believe about this matter, then, between yourself and God. Happy are those who do not feel guilty when they do something they judge is right! But if they have doubts about what they eat, God condemns them when they eat it, because their action is not based on faith. And anything that is not based on faith is sin.”

NWT, Romans 14:22-23: “The faith that you have, keep it to yourself before God. Happy is the man who does not judge himself by what he approves. But if he has doubts, he is already condemned if he eats, because he does not eat based on faith. Indeed, everything that is not based on faith is sin.”

 

[Goldie]

I will say there is some question about this issue and I am not sure where I stand, other than for now, I'm will not partake, I am not of the anointed, and until one of the anointed who has been sealed and has these matters "opened up" kind of like when Jesus was baptized, I realize that was not the same thing, but I like to think it conveys the same idea. But in the above quote Jesus says, "the covenant". That particular covenant was with he anointed, however, as I like to point out, Adam did NOT lose the right to live forever in heaven, or go to heaven at all for that matter, so Jesus life blood was literally poured out in behalf of the children of Adam that Jesus adopted. Certainly, his sacrifice open the way for the anointed to them to be "Kings and Priests" along side Jesus in heaven, but Jesus was the "second Adam", his life he gave up took the place of the life Adam lost.

However, there is another clue I simply cannot ignore either, even though there still seems to be some ambiguity regarding the matter, but then there is this...

Only Christ brothers who are sealed and die faithfully, "have life in themselves." However, that is not the same thing as saying "only Christ brothers must eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood"...there does not seem to be a definitive article in my way of thinking that explicitly says, one way or the other what should be done. But out of respect for the arrangement, as I said I will not partake unless and until I have something more definitive to change my mind.

There's a lot to consider Nomex, and I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. I've been researching this topic for a while now and I've heard both sides of the argument. And like Susan said, by all means do what your conscience tells you to do. I by no means want to sway anyone.

Another thing I found interesting — the Watchtower has always taught Christ's brothers are only the anointed. But in Matthew 12:50 Christ himself defines who his brothers are: whoever does the will of God.

I enjoy having conversations like this because it helps us to really dive deep into Scripture and learn.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Boy, you're sure keeping me on my toes. And these are all questions I've asked myself.
This is why I think it's good to deeply dive into topics such as these on this forum, to be like the Bereans and check all things, including what we have been taught by WT and to solidify our faith in what truth is. I'm a truth seeker. This is all I want — TRUTH — and I'm willing to change my opinion if the scriptures point me in another direction.

You asked to whom Jesus was speaking. When Jesus said "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood you have no life" in John 6, the great crowd as a group wasn't gathered yet, but his disciples were there, and many of those disciples were not going to be kings. They were just people who needed life, like us. And he said "you have NO life in yourselves" if you don't eat and drink. That has to include all who want life, doesn't it?

You asked about Israel first, then division. I think of it like Passover again. First it was only Israel, then the mixed crowd joined them and also had to eat the lamb to be saved. Same lamb, bigger family.

You said eating his flesh means traveling the same path as Jesus, even to death. I agree we all need to be willing to die for righteousness like Job did. Job wasn't anointed to be a king, but he answered Satan's challenge. So did Noah, Abraham. So I think the challenge is answered by all faithful, not just 144,000. The 144,000 have a special assignment as kings and priests to help, but the challenge was about whether ANY human would stay loyal.

You asked why take hold of the skirt if we all partake? Zech 8:23 says ten men will take hold of the skirt of a Jew saying "we will go with you." Taking hold doesn't mean not eating the same lamb — at Passover the foreign resident who joined Israel also ate the lamb (Ex 12:49). Taking hold means joining their worship of Jehovah, which includes showing faith in the same blood.

You asked why have a select number if the symbolism is for all? To me the number is select for a job — ruling as kings. The job is limited, the need for forgiveness is not.

That's just how I see it and I definitely can be wrong. But like you I'm comfortable leaving it in Jehovah's hands as well.

Thanks Goldie. The illustrations I put forward were not meant to be seen for their factual application but the spiritual one of attainment, indicative as to their application spiritually.

Thus eating and drinking, of flesh and blood in my mind means to fully imbibe the word to gain understanding. To ‘devour’ if you like, the spiritual meaning of Christ’s sacrifice. To ‘tread the same path’ as Jesus then, would require all our understanding of what that means. The motivator of walking that path in understanding then, is the reflection of how well we can apply it to ourselves.

Forgiveness is not given through doing what Christ asks of us as an automaton. That is the principle stated exactly by watchtower. It’s printed on my mind: “Stick with us. You’ll be okay”. No. We must own our understanding. To be forgiven in this sense - as in any sense actually, is to understand the principles of Jehovah and to be in agreement with them. It’s not a case of submission, but one of loving these principles as one’s own. To become them.

For those anointed they are called to represent the accomplishment of Jehovah’s purpose. And their position certainly dominates that of satan in its expression by being elevated to heavenly existence. It answers the challenge to perfection - the meaning of the purpose of what is intended.

The earth was made for mankind. Heaven was not made for us. Even the angels are a class below that of Christ with whom the anointed will serve.

Thus the invitation to “drink wine” to celebrate the accomplishment of the sacrifice is an honour apart for those chosen. Our station is upon earth. It reflects the very principles in perfection that Christ died for. I certainly cannot claim to being called to reflect that standard! I don’t think many can. Neither would I relish having to prove it!

The question then is why two classes? Why should there be a number to represent that accomplishment? The answer is that it reflects what Jehovah intended to set matters straight and to answer the challenge. Mankind inherits the Earth that was made for him. The annointed are a permanent answer to the satanic challenge, only moreso.

But are made any less than that answer in ourselves? Are we really ignoring a request from Christ not to take the memorial? What do we not have given us to meet our needs? We have everlasting life. How can life be sensed any more deeply than in being able to meet one’s own needs to perfection, especially when there is no limit to it? And in any respect, ruling over the earth is relinquished at the end of the thousand years because there is no need to rule if there is no disorder. So there will be both human life in heaven originated through the human experience, as well as that which has been passed down to us from Adam upon Earth. That is the answer to satan. Once and for all time. I do not feel invited to heaven or impelled to celebrate the memorial. I have not been invited to. One must have a legitimate claim to take it and I can not see that written in the Bible in application to the great crowd. One has to be honest to one’s self. There is no honour in inviting one’s self to a party. If one does feel invited, one needs to respond to that invitation and to let it be known and give their life up here on earth to have the same returned in heaven only with “added extras” one presumes from having life in themselves. But it’s the same life as we have in earth. Life is a means of expression in fulfilling the purpose given it.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

There's a lot to consider Nomex, and I certainly don't claim to have all the answers. I've been researching this topic for a while now and I've heard both sides of the argument. And like Susan said, by all means do what your conscience tells you to do. I by no means want to sway anyone.

Another thing I found interesting — the Watchtower has always taught Christ's brothers are only the anointed. But in Matthew 12:50 Christ himself defines who his brothers are: whoever does the will of God.

I enjoy having conversations like this because it helps us to really dive deep into Scripture and learn.

That is brothers in purpose. Not brethren in destiny as you point out in Mathew 12. The anointed have a purpose above that of one’s calling, and that is to speak to the nations, as did Christ. Everyone is given a task to share the Word, but the anointed are of a specific purpose as history shows. Sorry if I sound dictatorial. It’s my manner of writing. I’m actually conversing, not telling.

 

[Goldie]

Thanks Goldie. The illustrations I put forward were not meant to be seen for their factual application but the spiritual one of attainment, indicative as to their application spiritually.

Thus eating and drinking, of flesh and blood in my mind means to fully imbibe the word to gain understanding. To ‘devour’ if you like, the spiritual meaning of Christ’s sacrifice. To ‘tread the same path’ as Jesus then, would require all our understanding of what that means. The motivator of walking that path in understanding then, is the reflection of how well we can apply it to ourselves.

Forgiveness is not given through doing what Christ asks of us as an automaton. That is the principle stated exactly by watchtower. It’s printed on my mind: “Stick with us. You’ll be okay”. No. We must own our understanding. To be forgiven in this sense - as in any sense actually, is to understand the principles of Jehovah and to be in agreement with them. It’s not a case of submission, but one of loving these principles as one’s own. To become them.

For those anointed they are called to represent the accomplishment of Jehovah’s purpose. And their position certainly dominates that of satan in its expression by being elevated to heavenly existence. It answers the challenge to perfection - the meaning of the purpose of what is intended.

The earth was made for mankind. Heaven was not made for us. Even the angels are a class below that of Christ with whom the anointed will serve.

Thus the invitation to “drink wine” to celebrate the accomplishment of the sacrifice is an honour apart for those chosen. Our station is upon earth. It reflects the very principles in perfection that Christ died for. I certainly cannot claim to being called to reflect that standard! I don’t think many can. Neither would I relish having to prove it!

The question then is why two classes? Why should there be a number to represent that accomplishment? The answer is that it reflects what Jehovah intended to set matters straight and to answer the challenge. Mankind inherits the Earth that was made for him. The annointed are a permanent answer to the satanic challenge, only moreso.

But are made any less than that answer in ourselves? Are we really ignoring a request from Christ not to take the memorial? What do we not have given us to meet our needs? We have everlasting life. How can life be sensed any more deeply than in being able to meet one’s own needs to perfection, especially when there is no limit to it? And in any respect, ruling over the earth is relinquished at the end of the thousand years because there is no need to rule if there is no disorder. So there will be both human life in heaven originated through the human experience, as well as that which has been passed down to us from Adam upon Earth. That is the answer to satan. Once and for all time. I do not feel invited to heaven or impelled to celebrate the memorial. I have not been invited to. One must have a legitimate claim to take it and I can not see that written in the Bible in application to the great crowd. One has to be honest to one’s self. There is no honour in inviting one’s self to a party. If one does feel invited, one needs to respond to that invitation and to let it be known and give their life up here on earth to have the same returned in heaven only with “added extras” one presumes from having life in themselves. But it’s the same life as we have in earth. Life is a means of expression in fulfilling the purpose given it.

Thanks Barn for explaining your view. I understand what you're saying about imbibing the Word.

Where I get stuck is John 6:53 says "unless you eat... you have NO life in yourselves." That doesn't sound like no heavenly life, but no life at all. And John 6:54 says whoever feeds gets everlasting life — which is what Adam lost for us on earth.

And in John 6:55 Jesus said "my flesh is true food and true drink" — the Jews left because it sounded too literal, not just like studying.

I don't feel invited to heaven either, but I do feel John 6:53 is Jesus inviting us all to everlasting life. I appreciate your thoughts, it helps me dig deeper.

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

I will say there is some question about this issue and I am not sure where I stand, other than for now, I'm not going to partake, I am not of the anointed, and until one of the anointed who has been sealed and has these matters "opened up" kind of like when Jesus was baptized, I realize that it was not the same thing, but I like to think it conveys the same idea. But in the above quote Jesus says, "the covenant." That particular covenant was with him anointed, however, as I like to point out, Adam did NOT lose the right to live forever in heaven, or go to heaven at all for that matter, so Jesus life blood was literally poured out in behalf of the children of Adam that Jesus adopted. Certainly, his sacrifice opened the way for the anointed to them to be "Kings and Priests" along side Jesus in heaven, but Jesus was the "second Adam", his life he gave up took the place of the life Adam lost.

However, there is another clue I simply cannot ignore either, even though there still seems to be some ambiguity regarding the matter, but then there is this...

Only Christ brothers who are sealed and die faithfully, "have life in themselves." However, that is not the same thing as saying "only Christ brothers must eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood"...there does not seem to be a definitive article in my way of thinking that explicitly says, one way or the other what should be done. But out of respect for the arrangement, as I said I will not partake unless and until I have something more definitive to change my mind.

Me too Nomex, I've definitely not been annointed so I wouldn't take the emblems so to speak, just attend the occasion, a bit like when a couple get married and we get invited to watch the marriage ceremony. I realised just how special partaking of the emblems really is when I studied with Jah's org and compared it with how "not special at all" the Catholic church treats the act by doing it all day and everyday so to speak just what you'd expect from Satan though..

 

[MickHewitt]

That is brothers in purpose. Not brethren in destiny as you point out in Mathew 12. The anointed have a purpose above that of one’s calling, and that is to speak to the nations, as did Christ. Everyone is given a task to share the Word, but the anointed are of a specific purpose as history shows. Sorry if I sound dictatorial. It’s my manner of writing. I’m actually conversing, not telling.

Few years back my blood count was going down and down so I'm in the hospital and they say well if you don't want blood because you are Jehovah's witness how come you don't have the usual documentation which makes it easy for us? After quoting Acts 15 I said I'm not with W/T I'm freelance.

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

Few years back my blood count was going down and down so I'm in the hospital and they say well if you don't want blood because you are Jehovah's witness how come you don't have the usual documentation which makes it easy for us? After quoting Acts 15 I said I'm not with W/T I'm freelance.

"Freelance" I like it Since the rollout of the c injections, there are many more freelancers..

 

[a watcher]

"Freelance" I like it Since the rollout of the c injections, there are many more freelancers..

I prefer 'free-range'.

 

[Proverbs 14 v 15]

I prefer 'free-range'.

Even better!!

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Thanks Barn for explaining your view. I understand what you're saying about imbibing the Word.

Where I get stuck is John 6:53 says "unless you eat... you have NO life in yourselves." That doesn't sound like no heavenly life, but no life at all. And John 6:54 says whoever feeds gets everlasting life — which is what Adam lost for us on earth.

And in John 6:55 Jesus said "my flesh is true food and true drink" — the Jews left because it sounded too literal, not just like studying.

I don't feel invited to heaven either, but I do feel John 6:53 is Jesus inviting us all to everlasting life. I appreciate your thoughts, it helps me dig deeper.

Well consider what “eating and drinking” does to the body. Jesus taught using illustrations and the benefit of using illustrations instead of explaining the ‘science’ the literal interpretation, is that it leaves the listener the job of searching for the meaning. Jesus said so himself in answer to the apostles question of him why as to why he spoke in parables. Someone will know the scripture - I cannot recall the detail. It is part of the test to those searching for the understanding of the word, rather than fitting it to what they want to believe. This is a critical factor of why being alive in the pursuit of “understanding” is essential to gaining insight of the theme of the bible. We are not asked to believe what we wish to believe, but what we must understand. This is why the Bible says to make the truth one’s own. To live it. Not because you may be correct in your belief, but because it reflects what you truly want to believe - and by that you will be judged.

What we eat and drink becomes the body: the gut extracts the chemical composition of food and incorporates it into the body mechanism. It forms the most complex processes of living tissue known to man and the waste produced is likewise 100% compostable. There is no waste in waste. But we all know this - and thus the parable of eating and drinking is readily available to us all in that It becomes us. What Christ was asking of the anointed was become as him. The great crowd are termed as sheep - to “follow” him. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood accomplishes two things, as the listening crowd demonstrated quite clearly.

They turned away, repulsed by the superficial terminology. What did the disciples do and why? And we have to ask ourselves why did Jesus say to them at the last Passover, to give the act of partaking a new meaning and to carry it forward until they met again. I ask myself, when will I meet Jesus in heaven if I have not even been invited or know that I have been invited. Gatecrash by suicide?

What is the point of the anointing then? Man can not govern himself can he? The bible tells us that. Jehovah can not lie. So unless we are to disbelieve Jehovah Himself in his summation of man’s character, why should there be a select few invited to do just that as “kings” over the great crowd?

How would these “kings” know of their calling? Who is going to tell them? The bible is open to everyone. Let’s all jump on the bandwagon and join them and leave the earth a void dust bowl. Let us forsake our position on earth just as the angels did so in heaven, and swop places with them. Let chaos reign.

Otherwise, if not, let us consider the reasoning for a division in drinking wine and eating flatbread on a certain day. If having considered that we find that there is no meaning to Christ’s words at the last supper (why was it the last? - Think on that ….) of what possible significance could he have in saying what he did, to a select band of which, chosen especially and exclusive to the gathering, “I will not drink of this wine or eat of this bead until we meet again in heaven”. A specific place, said to a selected, specifically numbered group of men. Jesus even said to Jehovah in prayer that he had “not lost a single one of those he selected to follow him.” Why did Jesus “select” such ones, and for why? Why did he not just send out his followers such as those thousands that sat and listened to him and that he fed because they were hungry? Was that miracle not enough to inspire them? What about the centurion who had such faith that he even stopped Jesus from coming to heal his son, saying “just say the word?”

Jesus had “never seen such faith” yet we did not see the centurion at the last supper. More faith than the questioning disciples - yet not invited to the last supper. What about Abraham? Moses? There is a division and a purpose above and beyond the sacrifice of Christ and it is that evidence that man can, will and will continue for ever to serve Jehovah, even in heaven, to which no flesh can enter. I can think of no better answer to Satan and I’m certainly not going to gatecrash uninvited because the door is not going to open to me and I’m not going to embarrass myself by giving a false invitation at the door. Sheep do not follow each other. They follow the shepherd. He makes us lie down in green pastures. We don’t find our own or take that which has not been given us. These are Bible principles to follow as written. If we do not understand, we pray for enlightenment. We need not make answers of our own to fit our own understanding. We are given understanding and should be confident in that. The scriptures tell us to pray for it. It’s not up to use to pick and choose the bits we like. Just what is it exactly that prompts some disfellowshipped brethren to go along to the hall at Passover to take if the emblems under the scorn of those look down upon them? After all, it is a public declaration of faith, so why not do it as a test of conviction if we feel that to be the case and to test our understanding to the limit of public condemnation or approval. That test is coming our way whether we take of the emblems or not, so we may as well test it out.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Few years back my blood count was going down and down so I'm in the hospital and they say well if you don't want blood because you are Jehovah's witness how come you don't have the usual documentation which makes it easy for us? After quoting Acts 15 I said I'm not with W/T I'm freelance.

What a beautiful answer Mick. I shall use that if you don’t mind.

 

[Goldie]

Well consider what “eating and drinking” does to the body. Jesus taught using illustrations and the benefit of using illustrations instead of explaining the ‘science’ the literal interpretation, is that it leaves the listener the job of searching for the meaning. Jesus said so himself in answer to the apostles question of him why as to why he spoke in parables. Someone will know the scripture - I cannot recall the detail. It is part of the test to those searching for the understanding of the word, rather than fitting it to what they want to believe. This is a critical factor of why being alive in the pursuit of “understanding” is essential to gaining insight of the theme of the bible. We are not asked to believe what we wish to believe, but what we must understand. This is why the Bible says to make the truth one’s own. To live it. Not because you may be correct in your belief, but because it reflects what you truly want to believe - and by that you will be judged.

What we eat and drink becomes the body: the gut extracts the chemical composition of food and incorporates it into the body mechanism. It forms the most complex processes of living tissue known to man and the waste produced is likewise 100% compostable. There is no waste in waste. But we all know this - and thus the parable of eating and drinking is readily available to us all in that It becomes us. What Christ was asking of the anointed was become as him. The great crowd are termed as sheep - to “follow” him. Eating his flesh and drinking his blood accomplishes two things, as the listening crowd demonstrated quite clearly.

They turned away, repulsed by the superficial terminology. What did the disciples do and why? And we have to ask ourselves why did Jesus say to them at the last Passover, to give the act of partaking a new meaning and to carry it forward until they met again. I ask myself, when will I meet Jesus in heaven if I have not even been invited or know that I have been invited. Gatecrash by suicide?

What is the point of the anointing then? Man can not govern himself can he? The bible tells us that. Jehovah can not lie. So unless we are to disbelieve Jehovah Himself in his summation of man’s character, why should there be a select few invited to do just that as “kings” over the great crowd?

How would these “kings” know of their calling? Who is going to tell them? The bible is open to everyone. Let’s all jump on the bandwagon and join them and leave the earth a void dust bowl. Let us forsake our position on earth just as the angels did so in heaven, and swop places with them. Let chaos reign.

Otherwise, if not, let us consider the reasoning for a division in drinking wine and eating flatbread on a certain day. If having considered that we find that there is no meaning to Christ’s words at the last supper (why was it the last? - Think on that ….) of what possible significance could he have in saying what he did, to a select band of which, chosen especially and exclusive to the gathering, “I will not drink of this wine or eat of this bead until we meet again in heaven”. A specific place, said to a selected, specifically numbered group of men. Jesus even said to Jehovah in prayer that he had “not lost a single one of those he selected to follow him.” Why did Jesus “select” such ones, and for why? Why did he not just send out his followers such as those thousands that sat and listened to him and that he fed because they were hungry? Was that miracle not enough to inspire them? What about the centurion who had such faith that he even stopped Jesus from coming to heal his son, saying “just say the word?”

Jesus had “never seen such faith” yet we did not see the centurion at the last supper. More faith than the questioning disciples - yet not invited to the last supper. What about Abraham? Moses? There is a division and a purpose above and beyond the sacrifice of Christ and it is that evidence that man can, will and will continue for ever to serve Jehovah, even in heaven, to which no flesh can enter. I can think of no better answer to Satan and I’m certainly not going to gatecrash uninvited because the door is not going to open to me and I’m not going to embarrass myself by giving a false invitation at the door. Sheep do not follow each other. They follow the shepherd. He makes us lie down in green pastures. We don’t find our own or take that which has not been given us. These are Bible principles to follow as written. If we do not understand, we pray for enlightenment. We need not make answers of our own to fit our own understanding. We are given understanding and should be confident in that. The scriptures tell us to pray for it. It’s not up to use to pick and choose the bits we like. Just what is it exactly that prompts some disfellowshipped brethren to go along to the hall at Passover to take if the emblems under the scorn of those look down upon them? After all, it is a public declaration of faith, so why not do it as a test of conviction if we feel that to be the case and to test our understanding to the limit of public condemnation or approval. That test is coming our way whether we take of the emblems or not, so we may as well test it out.

Thanks Barn. I wanted to address one point you made you mentioned about fitting it to what we want to believe, and that we must believe what we must understand, not what we wish to believe. I agree with that principle fully.

And just to be clear, this isn't what I WANT to believe. Honestly it wouldn't affect me either way if it was just for the anointed or for all. What I want is to make sure I'm doing the right thing in Jehovah's eyes, and definitely don't want to NOT do something we're commanded to do.

That's why John 6:53 concerns me — Jesus said "unless you eat... you have NO life in yourselves." If that's a command for life, and I ignore it because I think it's only for others, that would worry me in Jehovah's eyes. I'm not trying to make an answer to fit my own understanding, I'm trying to make sure I'm not disobeying.

You also mentioned about living not on bread alone but on every utterance (Matt 4:4) — I agree feeding on his words is essential. But in John 6:55 Jesus said "my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink," and in John 6 it was a large crowd, not just the 12, and many left because they took the eating/drinking so literally. They were already listening to his words — it was the eating that stumbled them. And obeying what he said at Luke 22:19 "Keep doing this" is itself living by his utterance.

Thsnks Barn, I value your thoughts and will pray more about this.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Thanks Barn. I wanted to address one point you made you mentioned about fitting it to what we want to believe, and that we must believe what we must understand, not what we wish to believe. I agree with that principle fully.

And just to be clear, this isn't what I WANT to believe. Honestly it wouldn't affect me either way if it was just for the anointed or for all. What I want is to make sure I'm doing the right thing in Jehovah's eyes, and definitely don't want to NOT do something we're commanded to do.

That's why John 6:53 concerns me — Jesus said "unless you eat... you have NO life in yourselves." If that's a command for life, and I ignore it because I think it's only for others, that would worry me in Jehovah's eyes. I'm not trying to make an answer to fit my own understanding, I'm trying to make sure I'm not disobeying.

You also mentioned about living not on bread alone but on every utterance (Matt 4:4) — I agree feeding on his words is essential. But in John 6:55 Jesus said "my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink," and in John 6 it was a large crowd, not just the 12, and many left because they took the eating/drinking so literally. They were already listening to his words — it was the eating that stumbled them. And obeying what he said at Luke 22:19 "Keep doing this" is itself living by his utterance.

Thsnks Barn, I value your thoughts and will pray more about this.

Thanks Goldie . I tell you what I believe myself on the statement that “unless you eat - you have no life in yourselves.” To me Jesus’ comment could not have been literal. That’s the primary point. So it is up to us to figure out the true meaning. This being the case we can use the act of eating to rationalise. To me it simply means to ‘become’ part of something, in much the same way that we have a saying in this country: ‘you make your bed, you lie in it.” Cause = outcome = context = revelation or consequence or shall we say understanding.

The difference is in this statement that Jesus made; in that it has more than one outcome in its relevance. Jehovah does not change. Therefore the principle In its application must apply to two differing groups if it to make sense and yet maintain its continuity in meaning. That the difference is in an answer that demonstrates and underlines a principle of obedience in love and understanding for the anointed does not detract from those same principles that are reflected in different manner by the sheep. Anointing is an ‘invitation’. Therefore the anointed are chosen from all that are obedient. The celebration then, belongs to them alone.

Why? Well, I can’t answer that. Degrees of faith, commitment, understanding, application, usefulness, character, moral strength, selflessness, simplicity, humility, insight. It’s in there somewhere. Perhaps we should ask ourselves honestly why we should partake and why such a seeming divide is necessary and why it should not be so that way. What is wrong in Jehovah elevating a selection of mankind to represent Him in answer to Satan’s challenge? What better outcome could there be? It’s rather “in your face satan!” Is it not? And does that make us any less so. How can the answer be complete otherwise in that mankind can actually come to govern himself when in unity to the attributes of Jehovah?

 

[Goldie]

Hey guys, my brain is officially full and I'm exhausted with this topic — I would like to leave it here for now but thank you both for sharing your input.

 

[SusanB]

I prefer 'free-range'.

Me too! I even registered the domain, freerangewitness.com. Maybe someday, I’ll do something with it.

 

[Goldie]

Just leaving a few scriptures here to think about:

John 6:53
"So Jesus said to them: 'Most truly I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in yourselves.'"
If we are told NOT to partake, where does our life come from then?

*John 6:54*
"Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood has everlasting life, and I will resurrect him on the last day."
> Jesus ties everlasting life directly to eating and drinking.

*John 6:56*
"Whoever feeds on my flesh and drinks my blood remains in union with me, and I in union with him."
If we don't partake, how do we remain in union with Jesus?

*1 Corinthians 10:17*
"Because there is one loaf, we, though many, are one body, for we are all partaking of that one loaf."
> We are one body because we all partake of that one loaf. If some never partake, how are we truly one?

Just something to prayerfully think about.

 

[SusanB]

One thing that pops into my mind about considering if partaking at the Memorial is only for the anointed or everyone is that beginning with Adam and Eve, humans never have had “life in themselves”. As Brother King has pointed out, giving the resurrected Chosen Ones, “life in themselves” is an answer to Satan’s challenge that Jehovah is withholding something good from humans. Humans were always purposed to rely on their lifegiver, Jehovah, to sustain their lives. That is what most humans will return to when Jehovah’s purpose for the earth is fulfilled. But with the Chosen Ones, they must die and relinquish human life, but they will be granted “life in themselves”. That is Jehovah’s reply to Satan’s taunt and something entirely new. Brother King explains it much better than I ever could.

NWT, Psalm 36:9: “With you is the source of life; By your light we can see light.”

The Rise and Fall of Satan the Devil

Who is Satan the Devil? Is he a work of fiction, a myth? Is he really a reddish-colored, horned creature with a tail and pitchfork? Perhaps devils and demons are just relics of the superstitious Dark Ages? Seriously, who could believe that Satan really resides in a

e-watchman.com

 

[SusanB]

The title of this thread is “Many Called, Few Chosen” and the fact that many are called or invited but few are chosen or sealed, completely harmonizes with what is foretold about the anointed at Zechariah 13:8-9 that describes only a third of those invited will be sealed. Right now there are about 22,000 partaking worldwide. No doubt some are frauds but roughly one-third of those is more or less 7,000 and Revelation tells us that it is the 7,000 sealed anointed that die in an “earthquake” that brings to mind the earthquake that happened at Jesus’ death that tore the curtain in the sanctuary in two. In Jesus day, it was his death that had to happen for Christianity to then become the way to worship Jehovah beginning at Pentecost. Could the death of the 7,000 anointed ones, after their preaching 1,260, be the catalyst for the gathering of the Great Crowd? I think so. Just my understanding.

“NWT” Zechariah 3:8-9: “‘And in all the land,’ declares Jehovah, ‘Two parts in it will be cut off and perish; And the third part will be left remaining in it. And I will bring the third part through the fire; And I will refine them as silver is refined, And test them as gold is tested. They will call on my name, And I will answer them. I will say, “They are my people,” And they will say, “Jehovah is our God.”’”

“The Living Bible”, Revelation 11:13: “The same hour there will be a terrible earthquake that levels a tenth of the city, leaving 7,000 dead. Then everyone left will, in their terror, give glory to the God of heaven.”

“The Message Bible”, Matthew 27:50-53: “But Jesus, again crying out loudly, breathed his last. At that moment, the Temple curtain was ripped in two, top to bottom. There was an earthquake, and rocks were split in pieces. What’s more, tombs were opened up, and many bodies of believers asleep in their graves were raised. (After Jesus’ resurrection, they left the tombs, entered the holy city, and appeared to many.)”

 

[Shiloh]

Few years back my blood count was going down and down so I'm in the hospital and they say well if you don't want blood because you are Jehovah's witness how come you don't have the usual documentation which makes it easy for us? After quoting Acts 15 I said I'm not with W/T I'm freelance.

13 years ago when I had my knees replaced they had me meet with the anesthesiologist and I told him I refused blood transfusions. Right away he wrote down on my chart that I was a Jehovah’s Witness and I told him to remove that, it was not because of what the religion teaches that I abstain its because that I'm a Christian who practices what the Bible commands in Acts 15:19 and that I didn't consider myself a Jehovah's Witness. It didn't matter to him and he left that on my chart anyway. It irked me that he wouldn't remove it.