Monday, Feb 12th - Wow!

Medi-tator

Well-known member
Porque Jehová confía en su creación y su creación en El. Cómo un padre puede confiar en sus hijos y viceversa. Amor lo llaman. Y de eso el Diablo ya sabe poco, perdió ese derecho al revelarse. No existe cavidad para un sentimiento tan puro, pues su corrupción no se lo permite. Que Jehová acepte el desafío del Diablo no significa que pueda existir la capacidad de lograrse. Y ese es nuestro Dios.
TRANSLATION: Because Jehovah trusts his creation and his creation in Him. How a father can trust his children and vice versa. They call it love. And the Devil already knows little about that, he lost that right when he revealed himself. There is no cavity for such a pure feeling, since its corruption does not allow it. Just because Jehovah accepts the Devil's challenge does not mean that the ability to achieve it can exist. And that is our God.
 

Revvzone

Well-known member
It’s a paradox. Jehovah’s purpose cannot fail. He cannot lie. Yet Jehovah throws open the question to satan: Here are my 144,000 faithful followers. Pervert their course if you can. How can it be a challenge if it cannot be done, or will not be done. How does Jehovah be certain in such a statement. Yet we know He is. What then is the purpose? How can it be reasoned adequately and with certainty of explanation. And if it can be, then why is it a challenge?
The challenge between Satan and Jehovah was weather or not jehovah was lying and withholding knowledge from the first human pair, even though the scriptures say it is impossible for God to lie, as we know that first lie by Satan continues down to this day...thus the prevailing reason people unknowingly blame God for everything...The book of Genesis reveals Jehovahs reply to Satan as challenge excepted on the spot, and the outcome of the future of mankind set in stone! And therein lies Satan's dilemma and the answer to yours and many others question.. for convenience Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise you in the head, and you will bruise him in the heel." In that moment, Jehovah put Satan in check mate!...Thus making what the Bible calls him "a roaring lion and great dragon." Satan was literally defeated on the spot in the garden of eden... That's why he continues to accuse Christ's brothers day and night... We must remember when Jehovah speaks something that will come about, it doesn't matter how hard Satan tries to dislodge or subvert it, Jehovah has the final say... The scriptures dispell any accusations Satan may bring, for once christ reveals himself to the chosen it will be impossible for Satan to make even one fall for it's written.. That means doomsday for the world and the abyss for Satan and his army of demons...The rest of the things in-between are circumstantial consequences of the birth of the kingdom...
 
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BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
The challenge between Satan and Jehovah was weather or not jehovah was lying and withholding knowledge from the first human pair, even though the scriptures say it is impossible for God to lie, as we know that first lie by Satan continues down to this day...thus the prevailing reason people unknowingly blame God for everything...The book of Genesis reveals Jehovahs reply to Satan as challenge excepted on the spot, and the outcome of the future of mankind set in stone! And therein lies Satan's dilemma and the answer to yours and many others question.. for convenience Genesis 3:15 "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed: he shall bruise you in the head, and you will bruise him in the heel." In that moment, Jehovah put Satan in check mate!...Thus making what the Bible calls him "a roaring lion and great dragon." Satan was literally defeated on the spot in the garden of eden... That's why he continues to accuse Christ's brothers day and night... We must remember when Jehovah speaks something that will come about, it doesn't matter how hard Satan tries to dislodge or subvert it, Jehovah has the final say... The scriptures dispell any accusations Satan may bring, for once christ reveals himself to the chosen it will be impossible for Satan to make even one fall for it's written.. That means doomsday for world and the abyss for Satan and his his army of demons...The rest of the things in-between are casualties or circumstances of the birth of the kingdom...
Thanks Rev - so you are saying that it is the revelation of Christ to the anointed that will secure their total allegiance, and make them impervious to any further challenges by satan by choice?
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
As someone once said "

When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."​

Most here probably won't accept the 'improbable' today.
This is true. Just as Revzone argues too. There is some truth in what Rev says, but the question rests on choice, and not the choice of Jehovah, but upon man and his ability to make the right choice for the right reason. It is not difficult to assume that having seen the revelation of Christ and have Christ ‘minister’ to them, that none would turn aside and it is something we can put faith in, but how can this be stated as fact before the event? I don’t suppose the answer can be given, other than Jehovah is the one seeing the end from the beginning, but I would like to get a deeper understanding of it.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Satan's contention is that everyone will turn against God if enough pressure is applied. Instead of God picking people who will be faithful (hint: there are none) as the Potter, God works the clay and fashions it through discipline and hardship into a new creation that will be loyal.
Is there a scripture that refers to this please.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
I'm sure all of us noticed the potato commercials had no satanic flavor whatsoever. Just saying.
This is true. American potatoes have no flavour whatsoever, even satanic potatoes from McFats. - excluding brother potato of course whom we know is full of potato pie-ity, very crisp and tasty on the outside and nice and fluffy on the inside - and even better tasting with a good sauce!
 

evw

Well-known member
Is there a scripture that refers to this please.
Could these help?
Job 2:4, 5 - 'But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life.5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”

Lamentations 4:2 - 'As for the precious sons of Zion, who were weighed against refined gold, How they have been regarded as earthenware jars, The work of a potter’s hands!'
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
This has me wonder what will be helpful for the great crowd to determine such false ones since they can be deceived. I have ideas but what do you think would help them see who is true & who is not?
What are your ideas? I would like to know. The scriptures warn us not to be deceived, and to not go out to them, but not how to identify them - or maybe that is not necessary for us, because maybe they will come to us?! I can imagine myself waiting and not knowing, not trusting any thing or any one!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Could these help?
Job 2:4, 5 - 'But Satan answered Jehovah: “Skin for skin. A man will give everything that he has for his life.5 But, for a change, stretch out your hand and strike his bone and flesh, and he will surely curse you to your very face.”

Lamentations 4:2 - 'As for the precious sons of Zion, who were weighed against refined gold, How they have been regarded as earthenware jars, The work of a potter’s hands!'
Sort of …..but how are these ones fashioned through hardship and discipline “if they would give everything for their lives as Satan says. I can see the point argued in that faith can rise to the point of sacrificing one’s life for another - but as noted, Jehovah is saying that not one will give way. The lesson of Job is a good one though - thanks. I just wondered if there was some scripture specific on the subject of the 144,000.
 

Ana

Well-known member
Sort of …..but how are these ones fashioned through hardship and discipline “if they would give everything for their lives as Satan says. I can see the point argued in that faith can rise to the point of sacrificing one’s life for another - but as noted, Jehovah is saying that not one will give way. The lesson of Job is a good one though - thanks. I just wondered if there was some scripture specific on the subject of the 144,000.
Romanos 8:1-27. Este pasaje es para mi revelador en cuando al efecto que el ungimiento por espíritu santo tiene en ellos. Quizás no ayude a entender está cuestion. Las leyes espirituales son ejecutables en ellos pues al estar ungidos también recae sobre ellos. La ley del espíritu que da vida en Jesús, libera del pecado y de la muerte. Te imaginas estar libre del pecado? Que efecto tiene ese privilegio en una persona? Posiblemente las decisiones que puedan tomar varían bastante de los que no lo poseen. El espíritu es vida. Había incapacidad por parte de la Ley, pues era débil a causa de la carne y Jesus condenó ese pecado con su perfección ofreciéndose. Es el poder de Jehová manifiesto en Jesús lo que les hace poseer un comportamiento totalmente espiritual con la parousia del Señor. Y Jehová sabe el gran poder que tiene su espíritu y el efecto que causa en un hombre si se lo da. Ya lo vio con los apóstoles y lo verá con el resto ungido cuando Jesús vuelva a por ellos.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Romanos 8:1-27. Este pasaje es para mi revelador en cuando al efecto que el ungimiento por espíritu santo tiene en ellos. Quizás no ayude a entender está cuestion. Las leyes espirituales son ejecutables en ellos pues al estar ungidos también recae sobre ellos. La ley del espíritu que da vida en Jesús, libera del pecado y de la muerte. Te imaginas estar libre del pecado? Que efecto tiene ese privilegio en una persona? Posiblemente las decisiones que puedan tomar varían bastante de los que no lo poseen. El espíritu es vida. Había incapacidad por parte de la Ley, pues era débil a causa de la carne y Jesus condenó ese pecado con su perfección ofreciéndose. Es el poder de Jehová manifiesto en Jesús lo que les hace poseer un comportamiento totalmente espiritual con la parousia del Señor. Y Jehová sabe el gran poder que tiene su espíritu y el efecto que causa en un hombre si se lo da. Ya lo vio con los apóstoles y lo verá con el resto ungido cuando Jesús vuelva a por ellos.
This is very helpful in getting an understanding of the wider context, Ana, thank you very much. 👍
 

Revvzone

Well-known member
Thanks Rev - so you are saying that it is the revelation of Christ to the anointed that will secure their total allegiance, and make them impervious to any further challenges by satan by choice?
Yes... Take the example of Job, Satan contends Jehovah was shielding him. That he was only upright/good because the material gifts God enriched him with.. Job 1:8 "And Jehovah said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant, Job? For there is none like him in the earth, a blameless and an upright man, one who fears God, and turns away from evil." ...Satan then demands Jehovah allow him to be tested out like the sifting of the chosen ones that Satan will demand after the revelation of Christ.. Here again, "a decree" from Jehovah the seal of approval on a lowly human a vessel like the meek who will inherit the earth which is an absolute.. The essence is since Jehovah created everything and belongs to him, when he says this or that, he or she is good enough for him means, its a done deal.. The same when Christ said "My Sheep" know my voice.. Again, done deal! The very reason Satan continues to run his mouth accusing Jehovah and what's exceptable to him..Satan is angry and will get even more angry when he gets the boot from the heavenly realms..because he's already lost and has to face the consequences of his challenge because he knows its.Game over!
 

Still Here

Active member
Satan's contention is that everyone will turn against God if enough pressure is applied. Instead of God picking people who will be faithful (hint: there are none) as the Potter, God works the clay and fashions it through discipline and hardship into a new creation that will be loyal.
So God is either going to beat them into submission or make robots. Either way, that's taking away free will. Examples of people who will be faithful (assuming there are some) would be Enoch, Noah, Elijah. Abrahamc, Job if not many more.
 

Melinda

Well-known member
So God is either going to beat them into submission or make robots. Either way, that's taking away free will. Examples of people who will be faithful (assuming there are some) would be Enoch, Noah, Elijah. Abrahamc, Job if not many more.
Aren’t the faithful examples you mention fit the description …..

as the Potter, God works the clay and fashions it through discipline and hardship into a new creation that will be loyal.

Didn’t the hardships and discipline mold them into the faithful men they became.?
 

Still Here

Active member
I agree hardship and discipline make the person tough, just like iron sharpens iron. But at the end of the day, each person has to make their own decision. I would think that God trained Adam and the angels as well. We know he talked with Adam everyday and we know he had assemblies with the angels. But we know how that turned out for Adam and many of the angels. Again free will is such an important factor. Do I believe God is going to have completeness in his anointed class? Absolutely! Are they all predetermined individually? No! Where is the scripture that supports "So, all he (satan) has to do is mislead one of the remaining ones or cause one of them to become unfaithful and God's purpose for 144,000 fails"?
 

PJ54

Well-known member
What are your ideas? I would like to know. The scriptures warn us not to be deceived, and to not go out to them, but not how to identify them - or maybe that is not necessary for us, because maybe they will come to us?! I can imagine myself waiting and not knowing, not trusting any thing or any one!
It's likely they could come to us. My best bet is how the world will perceive them.
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
So God is either going to beat them into submission or make robots. Either way, that's taking away free will. Examples of people who will be faithful (assuming there are some) would be Enoch, Noah, Elijah. Abrahamc, Job if not many more.
God can do whatever he wants to. If a person submits to God's will then they willingly forego free will. Jehovah explains it simply and straight for even the most dense of minds to grasp: "How you twist things! Should the potter be regarded the same as the clay? Should what is made say about its maker: “He did not make me”? And does what is formed say about its former: “He shows no understanding”?
 

Still Here

Active member
God can do whatever he wants to. If a person submits to God's will then they willingly forego free will. Jehovah explains it simply and straight for even the most dense of minds to grasp: "How you twist things! Should the potter be regarded the same as the clay? Should what is made say about its maker: “He did not make me”? And does what is formed say about its former: “He shows no understanding”?
"If a person submits" is an action. If a person does what God asks, that is a reaction (again action). That is not rolling over and foregoing. Forego is to relinquish or waive, as in waive your rights. Free will is voluntary choice or decision. BIG difference. Just like a parent wants a child to react favorably because of wanting to please the parent (love), not because of the stick if the child reacts unfavorably. If free will is taken away, satan wins.
 

Watchman

Moderator
Staff member
"If a person submits" is an action. If a person does what God asks, that is a reaction (again action). That is not rolling over and foregoing. Forego is to relinquish or waive, as in waive your rights. Free will is voluntary choice or decision. BIG difference. Just like a parent wants a child to react favorably because of wanting to please the parent (love), not because of the stick if the child reacts unfavorably. If free will is taken away, satan wins.
Okay, but if one wishes to gain life they must submit to the scorging that Jehovah will ultimately mete out. True, some may not submit, in which case they will simply be killed and forgotten.
 
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