Monday, March 4th - Will there be a world government?

J&P

Well-known member
There is a saying among Jehovah’s Witnesses that Bible prophecy cannot be understood until after it is fulfilled. On the face of it that sounds about right. However, the purpose of prophecy is to reveal the things to come. And the things to come have to do with the coming of Christ. The book of Revelation on which the daily text is based explicitly states that the purpose of the book is to to ‘show Christ's slaves the things that must shortly take place.’

The Watchtower, on the other hand, has interpreted virtually all of Revelation to have been fulfilled during the first half of the 20th century. Their commentary on Revelation refers to a grand climax being at hand. That is because they have explained Revelation to have all taken place already except for the climactic destruction of Babylon the Great and Armageddon

There is no denying that the explanations offered are artfully contrived and even convincing, to a point. But they are simply not true. There is no possibility of overturning the Watchtower’s 1914 doctrine. It is too deeply entrenched. Anyone among Jehovah’s Witnesses who expresses the slightest doubt that the angels blew their trumpets and the bowls of God’s wrath were poured out in the 1920s is viewed as spiritually weak or even an enemy of the truth. There can be no discussion. No analysis. No search for truth. Revelation has been fulfilled. Book closed.

Nevertheless, no matter how ardently a falsehood is embraced, reality will eventually impinge on unreality. Now, please let me direct your attention to the statement above: “This wild beast does not represent just one government or world empire. It is spoken of as ruling “over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.” So it must be greater than any single national government.”

The Watchtower has assured the few million of Jehovah’s Witnesses under its authority that there will be no such thing as world government—no global empire under Satan’s control. The Watchtower claims that God’s Kingdom is ruling the world now and it is the only world government that will ever exist. There will be no political new world order. No Novus Ordo Seclorum. No United Nations global governance. No great reset. That is all the stuff of crackpot conspiracy theorists. Or is it?

The 17th chapter of Revelation depicts a scarlet-colored beast ascending out of the abyss and John was informed that the beast was itself an eighth king that springs from the seven. Furthermore, all of Earth’s kings represented by 10, will give their power and authority to the beast for “one hour.”

The symbolic 10 kings giving their authority to the eighth king for the allotted “one hour,” means that the only authority will be the eighth king. What this means in reality is that all national governments will abdicate their sovereignty to a single ruling body. Sounds like a world government to me. In that way, the Scripture will be fulfilled that the beast will rule “over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.” Placing the fulfillment of this prophecy to the establishment of the United Nations in 1945 does not work. The primary complaint against the UN is that it does not have any authority. Since that is the reality, how could it possibly be true that all of the nations have already given their authority to the United Nations?

The Watchtower claims there are two nearly identical seven-headed wild beasts. Is that logical? Not really. So why does the vision presented in the 13th chapter of Revelation depict a wild beast with seven heads coming up out of the sea and the 17th chapter presents us with a scarlet-colored seven-headed beast arising from an abyss? How do they relate to each other?

To understand the distinction we must first discard the Watchtower’s artificial interpretation regarding the meaning of the head of the beast that received what seemed like a mortal wound but then recovered. The Watchtower insists that the mortal wound was inflicted upon the head of the beast during the First World War. The explanation in the Grand Climax book claims that the victorious Allies fulfilled the prophecy even though neither the British Empire nor the United States experienced anything that could remotely be considered a catastrophic collapse. Bluntly, the Watchtower’s interpretation does not match history. It is a work of fiction.

But since Revelation is a message to Christ’s slaves to reveal the things that must shortly take place, given the advanced state of rot within the Anglo-American political and economic machinery, it does not require a great deal of imagination to envision the outright collapse of the entire system. It would seem that the ballooning debt of one trillion dollars per 100 days is the last phase in an accelerating advance toward what will be a supernova blowout of the City of London and its Wall Street satellite and the utter bankruptcy of the treasury of the one-time greatest nation in the world. There is no possibility that the precariously unbalanced, debt-bloated system could remain intact when once the missiles begin to fly.

The death of the Anglo-American head of the beast will give rise to the eighth king. That is why the scarlet-colored beast is pictured ascending out of an abyss. The abyss represents a death-like condition. The beastly system that has existed for centuries will suddenly die. Then it will come back to life. The scarlet color of the beast rising from the Grave or abyss may denote its rage, reflecting the great anger of the dragon after it is hurled down from heaven and causes a mortal wound to the head of the beast.

The resurrected beast will likely come in the form of global communism. It looks like digital currency will be imposed. Already the central bank of the central banks, the Bank of International Settlements, is putting into place a Central Bank Digital Currency system to replace national currencies. Will the United Nations be the embodiment of the eighth king in the post-nation-state system? I cannot say with certainty that it will. However, any form of government requires a lot of infrastructure. The UN already has the framework in place. It also has some legitimacy in the minds of most people. The Watchtower has certainly lent its support to hold the UN up as a noble but powerless institution. I suspect that the masonic-designed city of Astana in Kazakstan might become the new home for the UN, making it a world capital for the last empire. But that is speculation on my part.


Thanks for the audio. Really appreciate it.
 

Bk Kevin

Well-known member

More food for thought in reference to the subject.​

What is the meaning of the beast rising from the earth?​

QUESTION: In view of your latest article on the new world order, how does Revelation 13:11-16 fit in?
ANSWER: Revelation 13:11-17 states: “Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind. It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived. And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast. It puts under compulsion all people – the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves – that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name.”
Just as the multi-headed beast of Revelation is a composite of various parts of the individual beasts presented in the seventh chapter of Daniel, expressed as individual heads of the seven-headed beast from the sea, the two-horned beast is also represented as one of the seven heads. Which one? It is, obviously, the last one of the seven.
The Watchtower’s identification of the two-horned beast out of the earth as the Anglo-American dyad is correct. However, the question that ought to be considered is what the beast rising up from the earth signifies? The Watchtower attaches no particular importance to it.
If my memory serves me correctly (and it should after having been a book study conductor the three times the WT required Jehovah’s Witnesses to study the Grand Climax commentary) the Society teaches that the two-horned beast ascending from the earth symbolizes that the Anglo-American duo arose from the “stable” part of mankind, as opposed to the seven-headed beast arising from the tumultuous “sea” of mankind.
But that interpretation does not take into consideration the fact that the two-horned beast comes up out of the earth after the seemingly fatally wounded head of the seven-headed beast comes back to life.
As pointed out in numerous articles on e-Watchman, besides the obvious fact that Great Britain, France and America were on the victorious side of the First World War, it is simply absurd to suppose that the judgment of the second death has been imposed on the world in the aftermath of that war and the creation of the League of Nations.
Since the fatal wounding of the head of the beast initiates judgment day, it is evident that it is a future event. That being the case, so is the ascension of the two-horned beast. The beast rising up from the earth symbolizes the beast returning from the grave – the abyss – coinciding with the seemingly slaughtered head coming back to life.
In the event of the crash of the Dollar, which is considered inevitable, the present American-dominated world can easily change, literally overnight. Government will simply cease to function – as though it had been killed.
The two-horns of a lamb might be intended to signify that the beast is a counterfeit of the Lamb of God, who at that time will be ruling in his kingdom. Its speaking as a dragon portrays that Satan will directly speak through his resurrected earthly beast to command the world to defy Christ.
As for the beast making fire come down from heaven, this may become manifest in certain nations being obliterated by thermonuclear missiles raining down from the heavens. Or it may be some top-secret weapon that is yet to be unveiled, such as satellite-mounted lasers or even manmade meteors, dubbed “rods of God.”

 

Cristo

Well-known member
The Anglo/American world power has only been in existence for a short while when compared to previous world powers. Great Britain emerged as a world power about 1763 when the 7years war ended. Anglo/American emerged about 1917 according to my google search. The Anglo-American term was used primarily in 1790-1830 by French speaking Louisianians to describe English speaking newcomers from the US.
Hi Shiloh, thanks for that. I appreciate the effort you did in researching it. You should look up the 'special relationship' speech by Churchill as well, as it too certainly creates an Anglo/American feel to seventh head.

The point I was making is can it still be viewed as such, especially considering that the dollar is the WORLDS reserve currency, and has been since 1971. So for more than 50 years we have essentially been the main figure in the world. The scriptures point out that the seventh head of the beast must 'remain for a short while'. We can only speculate on how long a short while is, could it be a little over 50 years?

(Re 17:10) “. . .And there are seven kings: five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet arrived, but when he does arrive he must remain a short while.. . .”
 

Cristo

Well-known member
You raise an interesting point, Carl. The 7th chapter of Daniel only lists four beasts that descend from Babylon. Two came before. Egypt and Assyria. So, Daniel's vision does not include the seventh king. Instead, it pictures the three horns that are plucked out. So, the unusually ferocious beast with 10 horns and a later 11th horn, must picture the Roman beast and its modern incarnation, that being the British Empire. And it is the core of the aristocrats grouped around the British Crown and City of London that creates the last kingdom, the little horn that grows bigger and bigger.

Not necessarily so...although it may rhyme.

The scripture of the fourth beast states (Da 7:7) “. . .And it was something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns.. . .”

If all the other beasts represent nations, and this one is something different, then we must conclude that this beast is not a nation. It is the only logical conclusion we can come to regarding being different, as the only information we have of the other beasts are that they were each one of the seven heads. Therefore, this beast, being that it is something different must be as such, different than the others.

The beast itself is fearsome and terrible and unusually strong, it had big teeth of iron, and was devouring and crushing, what was left it treaded down with its feet, and it had claws of copper. On this beast are 10 horns, and an eleventh that rises up among the first ten, and three of the first horns are plucked up from before it.

Daniel 7:23 also states "As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the other kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. . .”

How is this kingdom different? It is quite conceivable that this fourth beast could be none other than the Holy Roman Empire, upon which all the 10 horns(nations) come to exist upon. The reason this beast is not a natural beast, such as a leapard, or bear etc... could be because it involves the disgusting things/doctrines/lies that the Holy Roman Church was founded upon Trinity/Hellfire/Immortal Soul. It is an abomination.

Most certainly the Roman Catholic Church was an empire, just as all the other nations were empires, only this one is different because it exists upon the lies surrounding Jehovah and Jesus Christ.

And upon the beast sat 10 horns, which would be the nations that came to power upon the Holy Roman Empires head.

If we look at all the nations in Europe that have ruled during the past 1500 years, and even up to our day the United States, The Holy Roman Empire has had a tremendous influence on these nations, one could even say that it was the religious foundation each of these nations had during their time in power.
 
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Carl

Well-known member
Not necessarily so...although it may rhyme.

The scripture of the fourth beast states (Da 7:7) “. . .And it was something different from all the [other] beasts that were prior to it, and it had ten horns.. . .”

If all the other beasts represent nations, and this one is something different, then we must conclude that this beast is not a nation. It is the only logical conclusion we can come to regarding being different, as the only information we have of the other beasts are that they were each one of the seven heads. Therefore, this beast, being that it is something different must be as such, different than the others.

The beast itself is fearsome and terrible and unusually strong, it had big teeth of iron, and was devouring and crushing, what was left it treaded down with its feet, and it had claws of copper. On this beast are 10 horns, and an eleventh that rises up among the first ten, and three of the first horns are plucked up from before it.

Daniel 7:23 also states "As for the fourth beast, there is a fourth kingdom that will come to be on the earth, that will be different from all the other kingdoms; and it will devour all the earth and will trample it down and crush it. . .”

How is this kingdom different? It is quite conceivable that this fourth beast could be none other than the Holy Roman Empire, upon which all the 10 horns(nations) come to exist upon. The reason this beast is not a natural beast, such as a leapard, or bear etc... could be because it involves the disgusting things/doctrines/lies that the Holy Roman Church was founded upon Trinity/Hellfire/Immortal Soul. It is an abomination.

Most certainly the Roman Catholic Church was an empire, just as all the other nations were empires, only this one is different because it exists upon the lies surrounding Jehovah and Jesus Christ.

And upon the beast sat 10 horns, which would be the nations that came to power upon the Holy Roman Empires head.

If we look at all the nations in Europe that have ruled during the past 1500 years, and even up to our day the United States, The Holy Roman Empire has had a tremendous influence on these nations, one could even say that it was the religious foundation each of these nations had during their time in power.
Daniel chapter 7 describes beasts, while Daniel chapter 2 describes kingdoms. Daniel 7 doesn't give any explanation of how the beasts fit in with the kingdoms. The dream Daniel had was showing the future, so the 1st beast was probably Medo-Persia, the 2nd Greece, the 3rd Rome and the 4th is either the UK/US as you believe, or possibly the complete NWO beast that rules for 42 months. I'm fine with either being true, as it doesn't affect my faith one way or the other. I'm just not sold on the fact that the 7th head is currently ruling; versus the possibility that the City of London is simply the continuation of Rome. As we all know, when Rome fell, the Holy Roman Empire took the reins. So, IMHO it's entirely possible the City of London became the KOTN as part of the 6th head, and the Vatican remained the KOTS, also part of the 6th head. Then, the KOTS moved to the US after the Revolutionary War.
 

Cristo

Well-known member
As I stated earlier, I won't discuss the possibility that the 7th king is not ruling. In my mind, that is clear as day that the United States is most certainly the 7th head of the beast. Any conclusions that you come to from the aspect of this not being true, are completely invalid in my mind.
 

Carl

Well-known member
As I stated earlier, I won't discuss the possibility that the 7th king is not ruling. In my mind, that is clear as day that the United States is most certainly the 7th head of the beast. Any conclusions that you come to from the aspect of this not being true, are completely invalid in my mind.
Very WT of you...
 

Cristo

Well-known member
Daniel chapter 7 describes beasts, while Daniel chapter 2 describes kingdoms. Daniel 7 doesn't give any explanation of how the beasts fit in with the kingdoms. The dream Daniel had was showing the future, so the 1st beast was probably Medo-Persia, the 2nd Greece, the 3rd Rome and the 4th is either the UK/US as you believe, or possibly the complete NWO beast that rules for 42 months. I'm fine with either being true, as it doesn't affect my faith one way or the other. I'm just not sold on the fact that the 7th head is currently ruling; versus the possibility that the City of London is simply the continuation of Rome. As we all know, when Rome fell, the Holy Roman Empire took the reins. So, IMHO it's entirely possible the City of London became the KOTN as part of the 6th head, and the Vatican remained the KOTS, also part of the 6th head. Then, the KOTS moved to the US after the Revolutionary War.
That isn't to say that there isn't things to discuss, I just won't discuss that. The City of London however, and being a continuation of Rome, that's another story. The City of London, or rather those that run it, are most certainly part of the little horn that grows mighty and as you said is the KON. As we know the little horn that grows mighty becomes the eighth king, therefore this would make sense to tie the two together.
 

Cristo

Well-known member
The little horn that grows mighty also rides upon the head of the ferocious beast. When we look to the occult and the 'hidden wisdom', this ideology has always hidden behind the lies of mainstream religion. More often than not using it as a tool to wield their influence. How easy it is to profess to be 'Christian' when in fact you are an agent of Satan. As we know, those who run the City of London are most certainly a part of the Freemasonic teachings and rituals that pervade the elite aristocrats who put on a form of religious sanctimony, but are truly controlled by the truly deeper hidden mysteries they pledge themselves to when they are initiated into the sacred knowledge.
 

Carl

Well-known member
That isn't to say that there isn't things to discuss, I just won't discuss that. The City of London however, and being a continuation of Rome, that's another story. The City of London, or rather those that run it, are most certainly part of the little horn that grows mighty and as you said is the KON. As we know the little horn that grows mighty becomes the eighth king, therefore this would make sense to tie the two together.
I respect having an unmovable opinion, but the official JW position on 1914 is equally as unmovable... until it isn't. Does it matter whether the US/UK is the 7th head or the 6th? I don't think so. If the coming global, all powerful NWO is actually the 7th head, it doesn't change anything. It's all just a matter of semantics. I'm just unwilling to have an unbending opinion on something I can't prove. If anyone can use the Bible to answer my quesions, I'd appreciate it.
 

Carl

Well-known member
The little horn that grows mighty also rides upon the head of the ferocious beast. When we look to the occult and the 'hidden wisdom', this ideology has always hidden behind the lies of mainstream religion. More often than not using it as a tool to wield their influence. How easy it is to profess to be 'Christian' when in fact you are an agent of Satan. As we know, those who run the City of London are most certainly a part of the Freemasonic teachings and rituals that pervade the elite aristocrats who put on a form of religious sanctimony, but are truly controlled by the truly deeper hidden mysteries they pledge themselves to when they are initiated into the sacred knowledge.
You're probably right, and the 7th head is ruling... I just have a problem with the "short while" it's said to rule being 300 years, knowing Satan's short while is only 42 months. Like I said, either being true is fine with me.

As for the little horn, that could happen early on in the 7th beast's rule if it is during the HOT.
 

Cristo

Well-known member
I respect having an unmovable opinion, but the official JW position on 1914 is equally as unmovable... until it isn't. Does it matter whether the US/UK is the 7th head or the 6th? I don't think so. If the coming global, all powerful NWO is actually the 7th head, it doesn't change anything. It's all just a matter of semantics. I'm just unwilling to have an unbending opinion on something I can't prove. If anyone can use the Bible to answer my quesions, I'd appreciate it.

Yes, but the 1914 is easily disprovable, because it is a lie in the first place, and once truth is applied through reasoning it crashes to the ground. There is nothing in the bible that states '1914 is a lie' is there? It must be reasoned upon through critical examination of the scriptures, and through historical evidence. Thus, it is not something that can be proven simply by using the bible.

The 'short while' was in relationship to the 7th head. Where do align the 'short while' to the 42 months? In fact, the ten kings who give their power to the beast is said to be for only one hour. I suppose one could say this is a 'short while', but if we reason on the time that the other kingdoms ruled who were the seven heads, they were much longer than a symbolic 'one hour' I would guess.

(Re 17:12) “. . .And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast.”

Perhaps the 'one hour' is the 1260? 1290? 1335?
 

Cristo

Well-known member
I respect having an unmovable opinion, but the official JW position on 1914 is equally as unmovable... until it isn't. Does it matter whether the US/UK is the 7th head or the 6th? I don't think so. If the coming global, all powerful NWO is actually the 7th head, it doesn't change anything. It's all just a matter of semantics. I'm just unwilling to have an unbending opinion on something I can't prove. If anyone can use the Bible to answer my quesions, I'd appreciate it.
Carl, its not JUST semantics. This is why I don't want to go on a speculation vacation with you because you consider all things as possible.

You ask does it matter if the US/UK is the 6th or 7th head. Of course it matters, how on earth can you even wonder this? With this type of reasoning, we can ask does any of what the bible says really matter Carl? My goodness.
 

Carl

Well-known member
Yes, but the 1914 is easily disprovable, because it is a lie in the first place, and once truth is applied through reasoning it crashes to the ground. There is nothing in the bible that states '1914 is a lie' is there? It must be reasoned upon through critical examination of the scriptures, and through historical evidence. Thus, it is not something that can be proven simply by using the bible.

The 'short while' was in relationship to the 7th head. Where do align the 'short while' to the 42 months? In fact, the ten kings who give their power to the beast is said to be for only one hour. I suppose one could say this is a 'short while', but if we reason on the time that the other kingdoms ruled who were the seven heads, they were much longer than a symbolic 'one hour' I would guess.

(Re 17:12) “. . .And the ten horns that you saw mean ten kings, who have not yet received a kingdom, but they do receive authority as kings one hour with the wild beast.”

Perhaps the 'one hour' is the 1260? 1290? 1335?
I'm also using reasoning skills and critically examining the scriptures, which is why I still have questions. Rev. 17:10 tells us the 7th head "must remain a short while." Rev. 12:12 tells us Satan's "short period of time" is 42 months. Short period definately equals 42 months... we know that for sure, but short while could be 300 years or 42 months, I'm not convinced either way. The other 6 heads don't have a time reference attached to them, only the 7th head does.
 

Carl

Well-known member
Carl, its not JUST semantics. This is why I don't want to go on a speculation vacation with you because you consider all things as possible.

You ask does it matter if the US/UK is the 6th or 7th head. Of course it matters, how on earth can you even wonder this? With this type of reasoning, we can ask does any of what the bible says really matter Carl? My goodness.
How does it matter which is true? Does it affect your faith or preparation for the HOT? It doesn't affect me in the slightest. I'm preparing for the collapse of the 6th or 7th head regardless of which is ruling. All I can say for sure is we're not in the HOT.
 

Cristo

Well-known member
I'm also using reasoning skills and critically examining the scriptures, which is why I still have questions. Rev. 17:10 tells us the 7th head "must remain a short while." Rev. 12:12 tells us Satan's "short period of time" is 42 months. Short period definately equals 42 months... we know that for sure, but short while could be 300 years or 42 months, I'm not convinced either way. The other 6 heads don't have a time reference attached to them, only the 7th head does.
Thank you for the scriptures, it most certainly helps when we discuss these things. At least now we can see how you are coming up with your perspective from the scriptures you provide.

How does it matter which is true? Does it affect your faith or preparation for the HOT? It doesn't affect me in the slightest. I'm preparing for the collapse of the 6th or 7th head regardless of which is ruling. All I can say for sure is we're not in the HOT.

Another way of asking your question is "how does it matter which is not true?" I would hope looking at it from that perspective highlights the value of truth, especially when it concerns the bible, and what Jehovah has given us. Yes, it does affect my faith, because we build that faith on truth, which is why YOU are searching for it, is it not? So, you must then acknowledge that truth does matter to you as well, and that it does affect you more than just slightly, because you yourself are preparing for something that you believe to be true.

I'm sorry if I come across so brusque, but it is truly tiring to try and sort out these things all over again, when we already know certain things to be true. Perhaps we should start over. I think the key to understanding Revelation is most certainly understanding Daniel, as Revelation was written after, and even more so it has the symbolism of Daniel written throughout. Can we start there?
 

Carl

Well-known member
Thank you for the scriptures, it most certainly helps when we discuss these things. At least now we can see how you are coming up with your perspective from the scriptures you provide.



Another way of asking your question is "how does it matter which is not true?" I would hope looking at it from that perspective highlights the value of truth, especially when it concerns the bible, and what Jehovah has given us. Yes, it does affect my faith, because we build that faith on truth, which is why YOU are searching for it, is it not? So, you must then acknowledge that truth does matter to you as well, and that it does affect you more than just slightly, because you yourself are preparing for something that you believe to be true.

I'm sorry if I come across so brusque, but it is truly tiring to try and sort out these things all over again, when we already know certain things to be true. Perhaps we should start over. I think the key to understanding Revelation is most certainly understanding Daniel, as Revelation was written after, and even more so it has the symbolism of Daniel written throughout. Can we start there?
I agree it is tiring to rethink topics we believe we know, but Rev. 17:9 is the only place in the Bible that specifically calls for wisdom... so I'm revisiting a subject I assumed I knew. I'm definitely not willing to question the trinity, Jehovah's name, the condition of the dead... and I've let go of other lines of thought so I don't tire out. Much of our understanding requires reasoning skills; Jeptha's daughter, the trinity, 144,000 vs. the GC, 1,000 year Kingdom...

"Does it matter which is not true?" IMHO, now that we've gone over this topic, no, but in doing so I feel I have a better understanding of Revelation 13 & 17 and Daniel 2 & 7. Whether the 6th or 7th head is ruling, my faith is the same. One of them will soon get a mortal wound and the HOT will start. If you can show me how it matters, I'd appreciate it. The reason I brought this up in the first place was to make sure it doesn't matter... and now I don't think it does. I just didn't know that until we worked these thoughts out to where we are right now. It was something that's been bothering me for a while, but now that we've discussed it, I realized it doesn't matter what we call the current beast, our Kingdom is in Heaven.
 

Cristo

Well-known member
The scarlet color of the beast rising from the Grave or abyss may denote its rage, reflecting the great anger of the dragon after it is hurled down from heaven and causes a mortal wound to the head of the beast.
(Mt 27:27-28) “. . .Then the soldiers of the governor took Jesus into the governor’s palace and gathered the whole body of troops together to him. 28 And disrobing him, they draped him with a scarlet cloak. . .”

Being that scarlet is the color of royalty, the scarlet color on the beast more readily identifies the risen beast as now being the 8th King of prophecy. This seems more in line with what the scarlet color denotes in the scripture.

(Quote from former article) That being the case, so is the ascension of the two-horned beast. The beast rising up from the earth symbolizes the beast returning from the grave – the abyss – coinciding with the seemingly slaughtered head coming back to life.

Although your interpretation could be right in what the earth symbolizes in that scripture, it could also be looked at from another perspective that is interpreted from the bible regarding what earthly means.

(Jas 3:15) “. . .This is not the wisdom that comes down from above, but is the earthly, animal, demonic.”

This interpretation can also be just as valid regarding what earthly means in Rev 13:11-12.

I understand you firmly believe the wild beast that rises from the abyss, the 8th king, and the two horned beast(false prophet) to be one in the same. Yet, you do have certain things that must be reconciled before this can be determined as true. Regardless of your perspective, you must acknowledge that the two are clearly presented as being two distinct entities.

(Re 13:11-12) “. . .And I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking as a dragon. 12 And it exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight.. . .”​

(Re 19:20) “. . .And the wild beast was caught, and along with it the false prophet that performed in front of it the signs with which he misled those who received the mark of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image. While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.”​


 

Cristo

Well-known member
If you can show me how it matters, I'd appreciate it.
I thought I already did. The fact that you are peering into these things says as much...that it matters. Now you say it doesn't really matter, diminishing the importance of it within you. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter though, it just means that you are content with what you already know as truth. You are not wrong, we don't need to understand the things written as long as we have faith in Jehovah through his son Jesus Christ and that Jesus is our King. I think we all agree with those sentiments and put our entire hope in them. However, there are many things other than these that build our faith in that hope. Most notably is prophecy, as it is what differentiates the bible from anything else written.

So, I don't honestly know if I can show YOU how it matters, if you have already determined it to not matter, I can only tell you why it matters to me, and perhaps others who are peering into these things such as you were. Perhaps in discussing these things, I can show you how it matters, or you can show me why it doesn't, either way if we do discuss them, I think it is important that we start off on things that we already know to be true and build from there. I would rather build on truth, than try to discern it through lies...
 

Carl

Well-known member
I thought I already did. The fact that you are peering into these things says as much...that it matters. Now you say it doesn't really matter, diminishing the importance of it within you. That doesn't mean that it doesn't matter though, it just means that you are content with what you already know as truth. You are not wrong, we don't need to understand the things written as long as we have faith in Jehovah through his son Jesus Christ and that Jesus is our King. I think we all agree with those sentiments and put our entire hope in them. However, there are many things other than these that build our faith in that hope. Most notably is prophecy, as it is what differentiates the bible from anything else written.

So, I don't honestly know if I can show YOU how it matters, if you have already determined it to not matter, I can only tell you why it matters to me, and perhaps others who are peering into these things such as you were. Perhaps in discussing these things, I can show you how it matters, or you can show me why it doesn't, either way if we do discuss them, I think it is important that we start off on things that we already know to be true and build from there. I would rather build on truth, than try to discern it through lies...
You're right, it doesn't matter to me which head is ruling, but I'd be interested to know why it matters to you. I'm interested in most of the topics we debate, but in the end I don't care if I'm right so long as I remain faithful. Take the MOTB as an example. I don't care what form it comes in, I just plan to avoid it. All the discussions on what it could be only helps me prepare to avoid it, so I enjoy seeing the topic debated from all angles. IMHO... the more information the better.
 
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