Music With a Message (Positive please)

SusanB said:
or that he was the one to put his name on the ORG
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I think the real point is the fact that even if he had it DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING. He did in fact "cause his name to reside in the Temple", and for a fact they were "God's Org" back then but that did NOT stop "Jehovah's Organization" that Jehovah had actually endorsed, from killing his son that he sent to them! What everyone should be keeping in mind is why the Org calls itself "Jehovah's Organization" and it is the same reason they call Christ Apostles "the Governing Body". It is to elevate themselves onto Jehovah's throne. So it was "Jehovah's Organization" that killed Jesus, and that title means exactly swat!

And let me point out a couple more things. When Jehovah told Adam, "the day you eat from the fruit you will positively die," yet he lived until he was 930 years old. Did Jehovah lie? NO! The day they ate of the fruit was the day they condemn themselves and brought judgement on themselves. That very day! So let me ask this question. When do you suppose the Jews brought judgment on themselves? Was it the day they killed Christ? Then why did it take another 40 years for Jehovah to execute his judgement? It should also be pointed out Jesus was only talking about those who lived in the area of Judea, that needed to flee, and it was literally for their physical safety, NOT their spiritual safety! The disgusting thing in our day is idolatry, and "catching site" is when you have identified the disgusting thing!
 
SusanB said:
Go where ever you feel comfortable. No one is trying to stop you from doing anything you want to do. Again, very puzzling to me that you would come on the forum and declare that you are PIMO and then try to teach all the other forum members who have distanced themselves that they are wrong and they need to go back to the ORG. Wow, if someone was sent by the ORG to try to lure people back into the wayward congregations, perhaps that is exactly what they would do. I think they’re pretty good too at music videos. Interesting. But time for the “ignore” button.
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London's burning fetch the water! Look at the power the dragon has given to it's seat in London. Ezekiel 28: The word of Jehovah again came to me, saying: 2  “Son of man, tell the leader of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“Because your heart has become haughty,a you keep saying, ‘I am a god.
I sit on the throne of a god in the heart of the sea.
But you are only a man, not a god,
Though in your heart you feel that you are a god.
3  Look! You are wiser than Daniel
No secrets have been hidden from you.
4  You have made yourself wealthy by your wisdom and your discernment,
And you keep storing up gold and silver in your treasuries
5  Your skillful trading brought you great wealth
And your heart grew haughty because of your wealth.”’
6  “‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says:
“Because in your heart you feel that you are a god,
7  I am bringing foreigners against you, the most ruthless of the nations,
And they will draw their swords against the beauty of your wisdom
 
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ChefBee said:
In the end, it all comes down to personal choice and decision wether to stay or leave, to leave right away or wait on Jehovah's time...
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I agree that it should be up to the individual of course, we all carry our own load, many of us have been hurt by the WT and the practices they promote through the elders. Going back isn't something I can see myself doing right now. I miss my friends very much, but I know Jehovah knows my heart. I'm more of a lurker here than a big poster memeber. Thank you for the songs they really hit home on some things.

I'm still baptized and can go back anytime, so I'm not really PIMO, I guess if there is a category it would POMO, but still able to return on good standing.
 
Nomex said:
I think the real point is the fact that even if he had it DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING. He did in fact "cause his name to reside in the Temple", and for a fact they were "God's Org" back then but that did NOT stop "Jehovah's Organization" that Jehovah had actually endorsed, from killing his son that he sent to them! What everyone should be keeping in mind is why the Org calls itself "Jehovah's Organization" and it is the same reason they call Christ Apostles "the Governing Body". It is to elevate themselves onto Jehovah's throne. So it was "Jehovah's Organization" that killed Jesus, and that title means exactly swat!

And let me point out a couple more things. When Jehovah told Adam, "the day you eat from the fruit you will positively die," yet he lived until he was 930 years old. Did Jehovah lie? NO! The day they ate of the fruit was the day they condemn themselves and brought judgement on themselves. That very day! So let me ask this question. When do you suppose the Jews brought judgment on themselves? Was it the day they killed Christ? Then why did it take another 40 years for Jehovah to execute his judgement? It should also be pointed out Jesus was only talking about those who lived in the area of Judea, that needed to flee, and it was literally for their physical safety, NOT their spiritual safety! The disgusting thing in our day is idolatry, and "catching site" is when you have identified the disgusting thing!
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It has to mean something, it's his name. For me it means responsibility first and judgement later. If the Israelites had been responsible about what it means to hold his name their judgement would have been met with good consequences. The same is true for the Watchtower, and anything that uses his name and recognizes the authority placed upon it.
 
SusanB said:
Well, respectfully ChefBee, it sounds to me like you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. One the one hand you say that it is a conscience matter and then on the other hand you say that somehow I am pulling weeds. Trust me there is no weed pulling on my part. I couldn’t remove anything and that is ridiculous and makes clear that you don’t even follow your own advice, aka hypocrisy. As I have said before, you follow your conscience and my conscience tells me that it would be cowardly to stay silent and appear to be something I am not and I am confident in saying that. The way you twist scriptures to make your argument correct is a real signal to me that I just don’t want to read your comments. And, with all of the push back I have gotten from you and those like you, I think I’m right over the target. Perhaps I have seen the disgusting thing and by your own admission, you have not. You don’t get to tell me what I see and what I don’t see. And, I will add that no one gets to label their own conduct or lack of action as “wisdom”. In the words of GB member Jackson, that would be presumptuous.

Psalm 26:4​

I do not associate with deceitful men, And I avoid those who hide what they are.

Revelation 3:14-16: “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or else hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth.
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I don't post much because I don't have much to say, its just not me. As an outsider looking in I don't feel like Chefbee is attacking the idea of leaving the org. She is just giving reasons not to, but in the end she says it's up to the person. I left and when I read her comments I don't personally feel as though she is judging anybody like me for leaving. Anyways, I guess I see both sides but we must have faith that Jehovah sees all of them, not just two.
 
Bk Kevin said:

ChefBee sounds like she's in cahoots with Bible lover in his Watchtower think keeping in mind she's new on Robert site and yet she was able to just jump right in being very familiar with Bible loves subjects matter I mean is it just coincidence or is something else at play here? .​

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I think there is something hidden.
 
SusanB said:
Conscience is important. Scriptural patterns help us mold our conscience. Some examples speak louder than others. ChefBee has stated that she believes that it was Jehovah who placed his name on the ORG. I really cannot say for sure but I do realize he allowed his name to be used by them. I think that if Jehovah placed his divine name on any particular group, then he would reveal that clearly as he has clearly claimed to institute the Mosaic Law or the line of Kings. The last specific claim that I find in the scriptures of who has Jehovah’s backing is the anointed ones and we don’t know who they are. We can guess at it, but even then, the final outcome can always change. I will wait for confirmation via the revealing of the Chosen Ones. The test of faith is still future. Until then, I will speak as loudly as I can when I see frauds or liars.

1 Peter 2:19​

For it is agreeable when someone endures hardship and suffers unjustly because of conscience toward God.

Hebrews 13:18​

Keep praying for us, for we trust we have an honest conscience, as we wish to conduct ourselves honestly in all things.

Acts 24:16​

Because of this I always strive to maintain a clear conscience before God and men.

Romans 2:15​

They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused.
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I share your sentiments on the matter Susan. after all we have to be cautious as a snake an innocent as a dove.

Romans​

19 For the creation is waiting with eager expectation for the revealing of the sons of God.+

How does one support the brothers of Christ if they have not been revealed especially in view of the many false Christ that are present on the Earth today.
I suppose the only thing we can do is to look after widows and orphans until the true Brothers of Christ arrive and have been officially appointed by Jehovah.
 
SusanB said:
I am clearly puzzled at this quote from ChefBee because it turns the warning for Christians to flee on its head. It was NOT the intent for this scripture to warn against leaving too early and they were NOT told to wait for a sign. In fact, the warning is to those in Judea and Jerusalem to flee immediately on catching sight. This is Jesus’ response to their question of what to look for and not a warning about leaving too early. Just the word “fleeing” involves a rushed and hurried attitude. There is no warning about leaving early, which is why the warning is only to those in the danger zone and definitely speed of departure is impressed on the reader. The others outside of the danger zone did not need to flee and the only direction they received was to NOT enter Jerusalem. But each one can read the scriptures and use their own conscience. I think the scriptures speak on their own.

Per ChefBee:

“Another example is first-century Christians in Jerusalem.

They knew judgment was coming, but they were told not to flee immediately. They were told to wait for a specific sign. Leaving early would not have been obedience — it would have been presumption.

Luke 21:20-21 — When you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that her desolation has drawn near. Then let those in Judea begin fleeing to the mountains.

Acting before that sign would have meant abandoning God’s timing and substituting personal conscience for divine instruction.

That’s the key issue: integrity is not proved by speed.”

Luke 21:20-24: “However, when you see Jerusalem surrounded by encamped armies, then know that the desolating of her has drawn near. Then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains, let those in the midst of her leave, and let those in the countryside not enter into her, because these are days for meting out justice in order that all the things written may be fulfilled. Woe to the pregnant women and those nursing a baby in those days! For there will be great distress on the land and wrath against this people. And they will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled on by the nations until the appointed times of the nations are fulfilled.”

Matthew 24:15-18: “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place (let the reader use discernment), then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains. Let the man on the housetop not come down to take the goods out of his house, and let the man in the field not return to pick up his outer garment.”
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If you listen to people twist the scriptures long enough then perhaps you might just start believing it.
In other words if you hear a lie long enough you start to believe it.
That's how propaganda works.
AI Overview
It is true that repeated exposure to certain interpretations of religious texts can influence one's beliefs, a phenomenon observed in various aspects of human psychology and social dynamics. Here are a few reasons why this can happen:

  • Confirmation Bias: People often seek out information that confirms their existing beliefs and discount information that challenges them. If you are frequently exposed to a single, consistent narrative, you may start accepting it as the only valid truth, especially if it resonates with your personal predispositions or the community around you.
  • Social Influence: Humans are social creatures, and the desire to fit in with a group often leads to conforming to the group's shared beliefs. Listening to a community of people who all share the same interpretation can create powerful social pressure to adopt those views yourself.
  • Repetition and Familiarity: The mere-exposure effect in psychology suggests that people tend to develop a preference for things merely because they are familiar with them. The more often you hear a specific interpretation, the more familiar and, potentially, the more credible it seems.
  • Emotional Appeals: Many interpretations of scripture use strong emotional language or stories. If these appeals are effective, they can bypass critical thinking and forge a deeper, more emotional connection to the message, making it harder to question its authenticity.
Maintaining a critical and analytical approach—consulting a variety of scholarly sources, engaging in discussions with people of different perspectives, and reflecting on the core texts yourself—can help in navigating diverse interpretations.
 
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ChefBee said:
Susan, Barnaby, you’re treating the presence of corruption as if it is the prophetic signal, but Jesus never said “flee when you see hypocrisy.” He tied flight to a specific future event – “the disgusting thing standing where it ought not”, and then said then those in Judea should begin fleeing (Mt 24:15-16). What we’re seeing now fits the foretold apostasy and activity of the man of lawlessness (2 Th 2:3), the period when weeds grow right in among the wheat, not the moment of harvest. When you turn those preliminary conditions into the trigger, you’re collapsing Christ’s sequence and acting as if step one is step three. From a biblical standpoint, that isn’t discernment, it’s running ahead of the One who set the timetable.

You warn about complicity, but Jesus explicitly warned us against doing what you are now advocating, trying to rip out the weeds early and, in the process, uprooting wheat along with them (Mt 13:29-30). Leaving at this stage, and urging others to do the same, can be tantamount to doing exactly that: tearing plants out of the field before the Master has given the order. You say your conscience compels you, but conscience doesn’t outrank Christ’s clear commands to “let both grow together until the harvest” and to “endure to the end” (Mt 24:13). If we really trust Jehovah and Jesus, then love for them should show most, not in being first out the door, but in staying at our post until they give the signal, even when everything in us is tired of waiting.

In the end, it all comes down to personal choice and decision wether to stay or leave, to leave right away or wait on Jehovah's time...
As already quoted above and mentioned also in my song "Keep On The Watch", Jesus advised "when you catch sight of the disgusting thing standing in the holy place, begin fleeing to the mountains"...just as in Revelation it says during the time of God's executing judgement upon Babylon the Great, we are commanded "get out of her my people...!" It's vital to keep in mind, Jehovah's day is coming exactly as a thief in the night... whenever it is they are saying Peace and Security.." Thus we are told "not to be quickly shaken from our reason...as if the day of Jehovah is here...for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness gets revealed." -Thess.2:3

We must remember too as Ezekiel said, that God's judgement is to start from His own house.. the same as 1Peter 4:17 which says "for it is the appointed time for the judgement to start with the house of God..."
Revelation 2-3 portrays Jesus as the head of the congregations, actively observing and guiding them... having awareness of what is happening in each congregation.

Ephesians 4:16-19 says if anyone"suffers as a Christian, let him not feel shame, but let him keep on glorifying God in this name... Let those who are suffering in harmony with the will of God keep on commending their souls to a faithful Creator while they are doing good."

"And let us consider one another to incite to love and fine works, not forsaking the gathering of ourselves together... encouraging one another, and all the more so as you behold the day drawing near."
"For we know him that said: Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people.""

"Do not, therefore, throw away your freeness of speech... For you have need of endurance, in order that, after you have done the will of God, you may receive the fulfillment of the promise."
- Hebrews 10:24,25 & 30,35 & 36

Deuteronomy 13:1-3 shows that God permits false prophets and their signs, not to endorse them, but to reveal whether people will remain faithful to Him or be led astray by them. "because Jehovah your God is testing you to know whether you are loving Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul." (Deu.13:3)

- The apostasy the Apostle Paul mentioned is a large-scale departure from apostolic Christianity arising from within the congregation, and the man of lawlessness represents a self-exalting authority inside God’s professed people that replaces Christ’s headship—allowed for a time, but ultimately exposed and removed by Jesus himself.
- 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12
Jehovah has allowed it to happen and it serves His purpose as he test who will remain faithful to Him through Christ. And as Jesus himself said: "Let them grow together until the harvest".
"But he that endured to the end is the one that will be saved."
Jesus promised "I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things"...as he told "Go therefore and make disciples..."teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.". -Matthew 13:24-30; 24:13
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Bk Kevin said:
I don't see the disgusting thing literally standing in the Holy place just yet however I do see its influence within the Watchtower leadership, it's kinda like a preview of when the Roman soldiers came in 66 CE and abruptly left "a sign as it were to take note and perhaps flea before it's too late - I mean after all Jesus did instruct us to use discernment.

Have we not already seen a preview of the disgusting thing standing in the Holy place when they the Watchtower track Society had a 10-year adulterous relationship with United Nations.? - not to mention the Watchtower has gotten on board with the United Nations as to continue their partnership with the disgusting thing and we know that's true because the Watchtower had fully supported the covid-19 kill shot.

Please take note of what Jesus said "when you catch sight of the disgusting.

15 “Therefore, when you catch sight of the disgusting thing that causes desolation, as spoken about by Daniel the prophet, standing in a holy place+ (let the reader use discernment), 16 then let those in Ju·deʹa begin fleeing to the mountains.+


AI Overview
This passage (from
Matthew 24:15/Mark 13:14 in the Bible) refers to a future, defiling act of idolatry or sacrilege, prophesied by Daniel, that signals the beginning of great tribulation and the end times, specifically pointing to the Roman armies destroying Jerusalem and the Temple in A.D. 70 as a first fulfillment, with a greater future fulfillment involving the Antichrist or false worship desecrating God's dwelling place, requiring believers to use discernment to flee to safety.

Meaning of the Phrase
  • "Abomination of Desolation":, likely idolatrous, that brings ruin or desolation to a holy place.
  • "Spoken by Daniel the Prophet": Jesus connects this event to prophecies in Daniel (e.g., Daniel 9:27, 11:31) about a future desecration of the Temple.
  • "Standing in a holy place": Refers to something that doesn't belong (like pagan armies or an idol) taking over the sacred space of God's Temple or even the Church.
Historical & Future Fulfillment
  • Past Fulfillment (A.D. 70): Jesus's warning was partially fulfilled when the pagan Roman army surrounded and then destroyed Jerusalem and the Temple, a significant defilement and desolation.
  • Future Fulfillment (End Times): Many Christians believe it also points to a future, final desecration by the Antichrist or his system, who will exalt himself in God's place, leading to the ultimate tribulation.
"Let the reader use discernment"
  • This parenthetical note is a call for wisdom, urging readers (both historical and future) to understand the prophecy's dual meaning and recognize the signs of God's judgment and the coming of Christ.
  • It's a signal for discerning believers to flee, as described in the following verses (e.g., Matthew 24:16-22).
 
Jahnome said:
It has to mean something, it's his name. For me it means responsibility first and judgement later. If the Israelites had been responsible about what it means to hold his name their judgement would have been met with good consequences. The same is true for the Watchtower, and anything that uses his name and recognizes the authority placed upon it.
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You misunderstand what I mean. Talk to any JW about the Org, and or pay attention how they talk about it, it is ALWAYS, "we must listen to Jehovah and Jehovah's Organization." Or some variation. In every single case, the intent is to elevate the Org to Jehovah's status. In other words, what they really mean is that "Jehovah's Organization" is Jehovah. You will never hear them advocating for obedience to Jehovah that does not include, "and Jehovah's Organization."

The idea is you can NEVER challenge anything the Org says, because it is literally Jehovah. That is why they say it the way the do What I mean is saying, "this is Jehovah's Organization" does NOT MEAN anything. What you said is exactly right, Jehovah's name does mean something, but it is not some talisman that gives something power by simply uttering it. In other words saying, "it's Jehovah's Organization" in and of itself, does NOT mean anything! For an absolute fact it does NOT mean what they think it means! Jehovah allowed the Temple to be destroyed twice and forever, where he cause his name to reside because of their disobedience. In fact you could say he was the one who destroyed it. In fact this is the very thing Jesus was talking about when he asked the Samaritan woman where they worshiped. The point was not where you worshiped, it was the how, "in spirit and truth."

Calling yourselves "Jehovah's Organization" reminds me of Evangelical's who think "Israel" means God's chosen people. One of many things they miss, is "Israel" was the name God gave Jacob. Jehovah decides who Israel is NOT some person, or group or Organization! Similarly, Jehovah decides if they have his approval, taking on his name just means they have agreed to Jehovah's terms, which makes them culpable for the judgment to come. And just because that judgement has not come yet, does not mean the judgement has not been issued.

So there is no disagreement from me with what you said. What I am literally saying proclaiming "Jehovah's Organization" that proclamation means exactly NOTHING! And that is all it is, because with that proclamation they are claiming, they have Jehovah's approval. That's why they do it. And what I am saying, is that means exactly the same thing as them claiming they are the "faithful and discreet slave." And we know they are, all we have to do is ask them. Likewise, they are "Jehovah's Org, all you have to do is ask."

Make no mistake however, and I know this is confusing it was for me also at first, I am not saying they have not been used by Jehovah, but look at what happened to King Saul and Solomon. Both started out good, both fell away, yet Solomon wrote books of the Bible inspired words of God, which are included in our Bible.
 
Bk Kevin said:
Have we not already seen a preview of the disgusting thing standing in the Holy place when they the Watchtower track Society
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I don't know if you saw where I pointed out, Jehovah told Adam if he ate for the fruit of the tree in the middle of the Garden, he would die on that very day, yet Adam lived for 930 years. Was Jehovah lying? No, because the day they ate of the fruit there was no going back. That day issued in their judgement, and NOTHING was going to change it. On that very day they ate, they died. That was the act which condemned them. In light of that understanding I think my only question would be, "can WT be forgiven for the crimes they have already committed"? And I do not see or know of any scriptural basis for thinking they can be. The Org will be destroyed, or so it would seem.

I am starting to feel like some of this "debating" is simply done to disrupt reasoned and deep spiritual discussions, and push endless debates about meaningless trivia. Which would make sense if indeed any of us here have Jehovah's spirit, because certainly Satan's presence is going to manifest itself here to oppose Jehovah and his will.
 
Nomex said:
I don't know if you saw where I pointed out, Jehovah told Adam if he ate for the fruit of the tree in the middle of the Garden, he would die on that very day, yet Adam lived for 930 years. Was Jehovah lying? No, because the day they ate of the fruit there was no going back. That day issued in their judgement, and NOTHING was going to change it. On that very day they ate, they died. That was the act which condemned them. In light of that understanding I think my only question would be, "can WT be forgiven for the crimes they have already committed"? And I do not see or know of any scriptural basis for thinking they can be. The Org will be destroyed, or so it would seem.

I am starting to feel like some of this "debating" is simply done to disrupt reasoned and deep spiritual discussions, and push endless debates about meaningless trivia. Which would make sense if indeed any of us here have Jehovah's spirit, because certainly Satan's presence is going to manifest itself here to oppose Jehovah and his will.
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In any case the Watchtower tract Society is going down because they are an idol and are worship by the brothers and sisters keeping in mind they have not confessed or admitted to any wrongdoing and probably will never do so that's why Jesus said "you cannot put new wine into old wine skins that's why I came to believe that the new wine is for the two witnesses / 7,000 when they appear on the scene.
 
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Bk Kevin said:
In any case the Watchtower tract Society is going down because they are an idol and are worship by the brothers and sisters keeping in mind they have not confessed or admitted to any wrongdoing and probably will never do so that's why Jesus said "you cannot put new wine into old wine skins that's why I came to believe that the new wine is for the two witnesses / 7,000 when they appear on the scene.
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I just realized this is the thread on "music". I'm going to leave this thread for that topic. But I completely agree with what you said here.
 
Nomex said:
You misunderstand what I mean. Talk to any JW about the Org, and or pay attention how they talk about it, it is ALWAYS, "we must listen to Jehovah and Jehovah's Organization." Or some variation. In every single case, the intent is to elevate the Org to Jehovah's status. In other words, what they really mean is that "Jehovah's Organization" is Jehovah. You will never hear them advocating for obedience to Jehovah that does not include, "and Jehovah's Organization."

The idea is you can NEVER challenge anything the Org says, because it is literally Jehovah. That is why they say it the way the do What I mean is saying, "this is Jehovah's Organization" does NOT MEAN anything. What you said is exactly right, Jehovah's name does mean something, but it is not some talisman that gives something power by simply uttering it. In other words saying, "it's Jehovah's Organization" in and of itself, does NOT mean anything! For an absolute fact it does NOT mean what they think it means! Jehovah allowed the Temple to be destroyed twice and forever, where he cause his name to reside because of their disobedience. In fact you could say he was the one who destroyed it. In fact this is the very thing Jesus was talking about when he asked the Samaritan woman where they worshiped. The point was not where you worshiped, it was the how, "in spirit and truth."

Calling yourselves "Jehovah's Organization" reminds me of Evangelical's who think "Israel" means God's chosen people. One of many things they miss, is "Israel" was the name God gave Jacob. Jehovah decides who Israel is NOT some person, or group or Organization! Similarly, Jehovah decides if they have his approval, taking on his name just means they have agreed to Jehovah's terms, which makes them culpable for the judgment to come. And just because that judgement has not come yet, does not mean the judgement has not been issued.

So there is no disagreement from me with what you said. What I am literally saying proclaiming "Jehovah's Organization" that proclamation means exactly NOTHING! And that is all it is, because with that proclamation they are claiming, they have Jehovah's approval. That's why they do it. And what I am saying, is that means exactly the same thing as them claiming they are the "faithful and discreet slave." And we know they are, all we have to do is ask them. Likewise, they are "Jehovah's Org, all you have to do is ask."

Make no mistake however, and I know this is confusing it was for me also at first, I am not saying they have not been used by Jehovah, but look at what happened to King Saul and Solomon. Both started out good, both fell away, yet Solomon wrote books of the Bible inspired words of God, which are included in our Bible.
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Talk to any JW about the Org, and or pay attention how they talk about it, it is ALWAYS, "we must listen to Jehovah and Jehovah's Organization." Or some variation. In every single case, the intent is to elevate the Org to Jehovah's status. In other words, what they really mean is that "Jehovah's Organization" is Jehovah.<----- This sounds like a proclamation made by man. I doubt The Father endorsed this. In a sense, it makes the governing body "The Untouchables." Human beings should be able to question any earthly organization.
 
SusanB said:
Well, respectfully ChefBee, it sounds to me like you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. One the one hand you say that it is a conscience matter and then on the other hand you say that somehow I am pulling weeds. Trust me there is no weed pulling on my part. I couldn’t remove anything and that is ridiculous and makes clear that you don’t even follow your own advice, aka hypocrisy. As I have said before, you follow your conscience and my conscience tells me that it would be cowardly to stay silent and appear to be something I am not and I am confident in saying that. The way you twist scriptures to make your argument correct is a real signal to me that I just don’t want to read your comments. And, with all of the push back I have gotten from you and those like you, I think I’m right over the target. Perhaps I have seen the disgusting thing and by your own admission, you have not. You don’t get to tell me what I see and what I don’t see. And, I will add that no one gets to label their own conduct or lack of action as “wisdom”. In the words of GB member Jackson, that would be presumptuous.

Psalm 26:4​

I do not associate with deceitful men, And I avoid those who hide what they are.

Revelation 3:14-16: “To the angel of the congregation in La·o·di·ceʹa write: These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God: ‘I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were cold or else hot. So because you are lukewarm and neither hot nor cold, I am going to vomit you out of my mouth.
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Father and daughter act. The anointed and chief cook.
 
SusanB said:
Go where ever you feel comfortable. No one is trying to stop you from doing anything you want to do. Again, very puzzling to me that you would come on the forum and declare that you are PIMO and then try to teach all the other forum members who have distanced themselves that they are wrong and they need to go back to the ORG. Wow, if someone was sent by the ORG to try to lure people back into the wayward congregations, perhaps that is exactly what they would do. I think they’re pretty good too at music videos. Interesting. But time for the “ignore” button.
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Very well observed Susan. I particularly appreciated the points you made earlier that there is no scriptural command about leaving early or waiting for a sign.

I have found, increasingly so since seeing true balance in understanding the scriptures here, that in all but relatively few cases, the one searching is encouraged to act according to their understanding of the Spirit. The Bible is explicit in basics, yet in application, balance, conscience and reciprocation, the beauty of the scriptures is seen and felt, and acted upon through understanding and appreciation of its depth of meaning. If anything, the psalms appeal to me because they express the truths of the Bible through that heartfelt depth in understanding, the holy motivation that inspires such a response. Compare that with the doggerel of modern compositions on the subject and one appreciates the difference in its conceptual application to the soul of the person. It is not emotive and superficial, but represents a grasp upon the depth of Spirit that is Jehovah.

Is it this depth of understanding that is significant? There are competing factors in “loss and change” that the heart and mind have to adjust to and insofar as watchtower is concerned and considering that, in the end analysis it is left to Jehovah Himself to wake these ones through terror, one can appreciate the complexity of the situation for those remaining. Would Jehovah deliberately terrorise His people, or would He offer insight for the taking before-hand to those who wish to seek it? Jehovah has always warned beforehand, and when one compares the wisdom of older couples like Jerry and Phyllis here, one can see the balance and consideration given to the ones searching for the peace and the understanding that comes from it, that is of Jehovah. Is it not the “understanding” of the Spirit that guides the heart and becomes the fulfilment of what is written? I simply cannot go back to watchtower. I would have to ignore the spiritual graves of my family to do it and for what? To share the sanctuary with pedophiles and land-grabbers of the very buildings dedicated to Jehovah?
 
Hey Barnaby and Susan, are you guys husband and wife 'cause you make such a great tandem! And seems like Kevin is your son. Oh I love that, one happy family. 🤭
Anyways, back to the argument... I'm not here to judge anyone regarding their choices whether that means leaving right away or waiting to leave later, nor am I telling anyone to either leave or go back. My expressions are reflection of my own faith that I am sharing, probably others can relate. Clearly you're not among them.
 
Nomex said:
I think the real point is the fact that even if he had it DOES NOT MEAN ANYTHING. He did in fact "cause his name to reside in the Temple", and for a fact they were "God's Org" back then but that did NOT stop "Jehovah's Organization" that Jehovah had actually endorsed, from killing his son that he sent to them! What everyone should be keeping in mind is why the Org calls itself "Jehovah's Organization" and it is the same reason they call Christ Apostles "the Governing Body". It is to elevate themselves onto Jehovah's throne. So it was "Jehovah's Organization" that killed Jesus, and that title means exactly swat!

And let me point out a couple more things. When Jehovah told Adam, "the day you eat from the fruit you will positively die," yet he lived until he was 930 years old. Did Jehovah lie? NO! The day they ate of the fruit was the day they condemn themselves and brought judgement on themselves. That very day! So let me ask this question. When do you suppose the Jews brought judgment on themselves? Was it the day they killed Christ? Then why did it take another 40 years for Jehovah to execute his judgement? It should also be pointed out Jesus was only talking about those who lived in the area of Judea, that needed to flee, and it was literally for their physical safety, NOT their spiritual safety! The disgusting thing in our day is idolatry, and "catching site" is when you have identified the disgusting thing!
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What a remarkable point - I had not realised that before -“ physical safety not spiritual safety. “ Thanks Nomex.
 
ChefBee said:
Hey Barnaby and Susan, are you guys husband and wife 'cause you make such a great tandem! And seems like Kevin is your son. Oh I love that, one happy family. 🤭
Anyways, back to the argument... I'm not here to judge anyone regarding their choices whether that means leaving right away or waiting to leave later, nor am I telling anyone to either leave or go back. My expressions are reflection of my own faith that I am sharing, probably others can relate. Clearly you're not among them.
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For the record I am honored to have Barnaby and Susan as my spiritual family members as well as others and you are very welcome to join if you put away your deviant shenanigans.

Matthew 12 ​

46 While he was yet speaking to the crowds, his mother and brothers+ were standing outside, seeking to speak to him.+ 47 So someone said to him: “Look! Your mother and your brothers are standing outside, seeking to speak to you.” 48 In reply he said to the one who spoke to him: “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 And extending his hand toward his disciples, he said: “Look! My mother and my brothers!+ 50 For whoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, that one is my brother and sister and mother.”+
 
I want to remind everyone the title of this thread....69 pages until now!!!! Or I guess 67 or 68. before it spiraled into these last few pages.

Music With a Message (Positive please)
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