Getting disfellowshipped is not a death sentence like the propaganda image you posted of Stephen getting stoned. That's a big reach. Watchman, is very much a live and is able to get his message out.
My beloved Religion-And the Governing Body
- Thread starter Nomex
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Getting disfellowshipped is not a death sentence like the propaganda image you posted of Stephen getting stoned. That's a big reach. Watchman, is very much a live and is able to get his message out.
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
The psychological reaction to disfellowshipping depends critically upon the recipient. It is - and actually should rightly be so, akin to the emotion of rejection in love in many instances and for equally as many reasons. There is a critical difference in the case of Robert, in that he had already seen the falsity of the watchtower message, and had argued it convincingly with the elders of his congregation. Though I do not speak for him, it is far easier to walk away from a lie, knowing the truth, than it is for someone who believes in the facsimile truth of watchtower and can not reconcile their future without it. Far from being an assumption as you suggest, it is a reality for many and worse, the loss of family members on top. A superficial of examination of suicide within watchtower would demonstrate that. One only has to examine the issues of sisters who have been disfellowshipped from the Org because they ran from an abusive relationship - or worse, made to stay. The disfellowshipping issues of watchtower has also caused a living death to the families it has broken apart, with abandoned spouses, parentless children, broken self esteem, mental health issues, life long mental health issues extending decades down the line that are irreparable. Death by stoning would be a comparably acceptable alternative to many such victims of watchtower bone-headed, narrow minded, ill-thought through needless (in most cases) persecution based largely on the justice of man rather than through observation and application of sound scriptural reasoning based on love and understanding. In all but a few cases, leaving the ninety nine other sheep to go after the one lost is the answer. The scripture cited is thus: ”…If you do not have love, you have nothing.“ The understanding of love, is not some petty, soft forgiveness, it’s meaning encapsulates justice in every sense of the word. (The cities of refuge for instance). Watchtower justice and love, is superficial, not to mention ignorant, and is left open to the interpretation of men. The bible though, is absolutely clear as to love and justice in understanding. The watchtower has no excuse. It is best to take into account also in this matter, how death is used extensively within the bible, figuratively. There are many similarities behaviourally. Rather than being angry at everyone for voicing issues contrary to your thoughts, you would get far more out of discussions here if you befriended others and exchanged ideas - it teaches very well, the vast understanding that others have in perception spiritual, their appreciation of things that are pertinent to us all in some degree, the variance that there is in belief, and the genuine experiences and nuances of their spiritual lives. One does not have to be right in every last detail. None of us are, but we see and learn from the struggle to be so and thus see the scope in the fluidity of seeking truth. Getting angry simply blocks our own path and to ultimately, have to travel it alone.
Carl
Well-known member
The WT's abuse of the DF'ing provision has resulted in countless suicides, whether they happen after DF'ing or due to the fear of it. I believe it was mostly meant for anointed ones who became apostates... and by apostate, I don't use the broad WT definition, but the Biblical. They were to be shunned because they were no longer Christians and were a danger to the spiritual health of the congregation. DF'ing someone who commits a major sin is an oxymoron because we sin every day. I'm in no way excusing major sins, but they need the congregation the most! I make obvious exceptions for child abusers, the physically violent, sexually perverse... they should be shunned by the whole of society, but a Christian should at least try to wake them up spiritually if the chance arises. Sometimes a kind word by a loving Christian can turn someone around. The WT isn't a kind organization, they're a top down control matrix that rules by instilling fear, not love. DF'ing isn't supposed to be a punishment, it's meant to protect the spiritual health of the congregation.
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Ms_ladyblue
Well-known member
You’re right, that illustration was just to emphasize the WAY they VIEW those ARE DF’d.…as a LOVING provision. That is a distorted view of the LOVE Jesus taught his followers about. You help those ones spiritually who ”commit a sin,” not treat them like they’re dead by shunning them. Let’s be realistic here…we don’t love the wrongdoing they’ve committed it’s the sin we hate. So, how do you show you hate the wrongdoing by SHUNNING THEM? No one else KNOWS what they’ve done…
The GB and by way of extension, the elders are NOT to be judges. They are there to guide and help those who have become “lost” or spiritually sick. So, it is they, the CONGREGATION who have chose to die spiritually…thereby no longer displaying the “fruits of God’s spirit,” namely LOVE.
Remember Jesus’s words at John 13:35 “By this all will know that you are my disciples—if you have LOVE among yourselves.”
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Melinda
Well-known member
The threat of DF'ing reminds me of the words in the song Hotel California "You can check in but you can never check out". Once your baptized...your held hostage and your family is used as blackmail.
Ms_ladyblue
Well-known member
No! But most who do get DF’d aren’t pedophiles. I In know way meant that pedophiles shouldn’t be DF’d. I’m sorry if my explanation came off that way. Maybe I should retract my statement. 🤔
But it would stand to reason all the more so if the elders would warn those in the congregation of pedophiles or any sexually depraved ones in their midst…that would be showing love for the congregation.
Carl
Well-known member
I should be more clear, major sinners, and especially pedophiles, should be shunned socially, which would mean disclosing their major sins to the congregation. They shouldn't be spiritually shunned via DF'ing, because they still have a chance at repentance. Apostates to the Truth, not the GB, may have a chance to repent, but they're very dangerous spiritually, so I would advise all sheep and elders to completely avoid them, which would mean officially DF'ing them from Christianity. So if I was in charge, I'd advise the sheep to avoid pedophiles in all instances, EXCEPT for when they have a great opportunity to reach out with a message of hope and encouragement.
No. You don't need to retract anything. I was just making a point. Disfellowshipping is biblically grounded. However, like everything else it is abused. Some congregations might be too lax and allow things to go on that others would not. Other elder bodies might be too harsh and unforgiving. Apparently, the Corinthians were both. In his first letter to them, Paul chided them for tolerating a man who was living immorally. In his second letter, he exhorted them to be forgiving.
Carl
Well-known member
A friend of mine was DF'd after going to the elders to admit he had sex with a single woman in the congregation. He was deeply remorseful which spurred his immediate confession. She on the other hand lied to the elders and denied it. She wasn't DF'd because of the 2 witness rule... i.e. a technicality. So the elders DF'd a clearly repentant one time sinner, thus believing his story, but allowed a confirmed liar and fornicator to go.
Ms_ladyblue
Well-known member
Yes, I understand, it’s like you said, it is abused. One thing in particular also is even if a disfellowshipping announcement hasn’t been made nor any wrongdoing of a congregant has been committed, instead, one may have questioned or said something negative against the GB/WT‘s policies, you’re treated as if you are disfellowshipped.
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Ms_ladyblue
Well-known member
IMO how can these imperfect men, who can’t read hearts and evidently, as you pointed out, his being “deeply remorseful“ actions weren’t rightfully discerned. This is deeply disturbing because of the fruitage it bears many, many times.
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That's ridiculous. Absurd. How can the brother be disfellowshipped for a sin that the alleged partner swears didn't happen?
I think we all agree on the disfellowshipping arrangement when it comes to the extreme issues of pedophile's, murderers, rapists, adultery, stealing and so forth. Makes sense to keep the congregation clean of such rotten people. Though there is middle ground. And then there is disfellowshipping on lesser issues because the body of elders in certain congregations are super sensitive and will disfellowship people on grey matters.
Summit
Well-known member
Absolutely agree with this because it is true, but it is only one side. To be balanced we must consider that shunning is biblical in the sense that if somebody is choosing to live a lifestyle contrary to Christian standards they can ferment the whole lump so to speak. The example you cite shows a man called 'the victim' when in reality perhaps he chose to commit adultery, and steal, or whatever it was that was clearly gross sin. We cannot overlook that shunning in its biblical context is tough love. When the nation of Israel committed gross sin over and over, Jehovah disfellowshipped them in a sense, allowing them to commit acts of spiritual prostitution with other nations, and letting them suffer the consequences. Yet when they humbly repented he accepted them back into his favor. When done correctly shunning is truly a loving act.
The other side, which your illustration is probably more in line with, is that unfortunately the WT also DF's those who speak out against the false teachings and do become a victim. I'm sure there are many on this forum who have stood up for truth and been disfellowshipped for doing so, i'm one of them. That is not loving. I do forgive them for doing so because they truly believe in their hearts they are doing the right thing, if they knew the truth then it would be different. I leave it in Gods hands, which is all we can do. He is the only one who sees the ones who were df'd for a good reason, and the ones who weren't. Because he is a God of perfect justice, I have faith that all things will eventually work out for those who have been df'd for standing up for truth.
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
The watchtower are masters at straining at the gnat and swallowing the camel. They are happy to ruin a child’s life by letting these people infest the congregation, deny it happens, and then disfellowship the victim for the outcomes of behaviour following their abuse. It’s not an uncommon reaction in many areas of society, because the causal route of behaviours is denied or ignored by those without insight, or, prefer blindness to the consequences of taking action and applying righteous restitution - as is the case with watchtower. The watchtower rely on their own understanding:- superficial, and led by fear, greed and denial, putting more store upon their own image of self, and their pretence at Jehovah’s Truth, rather than listening to the victim and actioning Jehovah’s justice as it is written. They do not follow the primary attribute of the spirit in love, upon which the discerning elder and the victim would depend for guidance upon in dispensing justice in judgement. The scripture is true in that “love sees all things…”, it listens, perceives, seeks justice, denies only self so that it can act independently and without fear, bringing relief and vindication along with a just punishment upon the transgressor. It reminds me of that scripture that lists what should be repaid in value for animals stolen, such as, if I recall correctly, seven bulls for the theft of one right through to death in cases of adultery between consenting adults! How much more so then for the abuse of an innocent child? It’s not just about innocence too, it’s about the perception of the very soul of the child. Lifelong. Watchtower has much shame to answer for. They have no idea for the repair needed for a child to survive for the rest of their lives with such murderous treatment of their soul. It never goes away. And that is their (watchtowers) crime. It cannot be repaid in money. There cannot be restitution or recompense. There is only one repair, and it’s found in Revelation. “For the former things will not be brought to mind.“ Only Jehovah can undo what man has done to his fellow beings. There is no argument to the matter. It is unbelievable that the matter should be argued over.
BARNABY THE DOG.
Well-known member
That is the magic of watchtower. They cannot reason normally. It’s called possession, I suppose.
Nomex
Well-known member
Same thing happened to a guy I know, except he wasn't DF'd. I think he was privately reproved. And he claimed the girl tried to hook up with him again later, after she denied everything. Like I have said so many times though when it comes to the Elder body, "when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail." DF'ing and "reproof" is their only "tool" to "helping people." You also have the problem of over zealous self righteous attitude of almost all R&F who think whatever WT tells them to think, and they have done such a good job that the R&F actually think they have reached many of these decisions on their own. But just like installing a computer program onto a computer, the R&F have had their thinking installed into them by WT!
Nomex
Well-known member
There was one "dramatization" they released during the Covid fiasco, and it was a Mary or Martha talking to a neighbor, and the neighbor was telling her she was going to listen to the Pharisees about Jesus. I was stunned by their complete lack of self awareness. They are literally condemning themselves and they don't even know it. If Jesus came to the earth in an earthly form again, and he called out the GB they would 100% DF him, and like I have said before, that is only because they have no authority to kill him. They are exactly like the 1st century Pharisees.
Carl
Well-known member
This guy is incredibly handsome... like model gorgeous, so I think there was a hint of jealousy. It wasn't my congregation, so he's the only person I know in the situation. He could literally have any woman he wants, but he loves Jehovah so much he won't do it. I'm not excusing his behavior, but he was seduced by a Jezebel in the congregation and let down his guard after field ministry one Saturday. He's had non-JW women ask for Bible studies just to have a chance to be with him.