No need watchtower's guidance on worshipping JEHOVAH

mreader

Well-known member
Honestly, since 2002 being JW/2005 had been baptized, had countless scriptural disputes with an elders. I had never been afraid of the watchtower/elder's push against and not really emotionally effected. The spiritually weak ones meaning those who sole relay on the Watchtower never have a true connection to JEHOVAH - I can see that like a black and white.... That is why if something has been going on they becoming emotional and weak and confused. They are not able to think logically and independently. Since I am no longer with my congregation I have been happier and more upbeat daily than I had been before. I have been worshiping JEHOVAH on the scriptural terms. No need a guidance on that.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Honestly, since 2002 being JW/2005 had been baptized, had countless scriptural disputes with an elders. I had never been afraid of the watchtower/elder's push against and not really emotionally effected. The spiritually weak ones meaning those who sole relay on the Watchtower never have a true connection to JEHOVAH - I can see that like a black and white.... That is why if something has been going on they becoming emotional and weak and confused. They are not able to think logically and independently. Since I am no longer with my congregation I have been happier and more upbeat daily than I had been before. I have been worshiping JEHOVAH on the scriptural terms. No need a guidance on that.
Good to hear. Because when I look back on what I accepted and even taught, I’m disappointed that I didn’t take a stand sooner. But then at the same time, it’s likely I would not have the bible knowledge that I now have if I had not been in line with their program. That is one of the many beautiful things about Jehovah, he gives everyone time to repent and time to apply the bible as we learn it. Thank you for your comment.
 
R

RR144

Guest
Elders are the worst. Don't get me wrong, I have known some wonderful, sincere elders, who really cared, but there were others who were deviants, that only cared about power and status. My Presiding Overseer hated me with a passion. Towards my last year or so he tried everything in his power to get me DF'd, but there was nothing .... he had no evidence for anything. I went to all the meetings ... I worked FULL time, and still regular pioneered, that was 90 hours a month back then. I had 5 Bible studies. He would appoint appoint Servants and Elders those brothers he knew he could manipulate and mold into his way of thinking, or those he could mold and shape to do what he wanted. The whole body of Servants and Elders were fearful of him. I didn't care, he was just a man and if you wanted my respect, you had to earn it. I remember I had a part on the Service Meeting, about the latest magazines. The Awake was about marriage and in-laws, and I made a joke that "I found the articles helpful because as you know I'll be getting an in-law soon". I was engaged and getting married in a few months. He jumped down my throat and said "the podium was not for making jokes and need to be serious." That Sunday he gave the public talk, and you'd think he was a stand-up comic, making joes and laughing. At the end of the meeting, I went up to him and to his face called him a hypocrite. During the last 6 months on the body, I had my resignation letter in my suit pocket, just waiting for that last straw and hand it in.

During those last 6 months, I would get a call and all hours of day or night, "Brother, we need to speak with you know, come to the hall." I would get up and go to the hall at 9 or 10 pm and it was just a fishing expedition. During the School/Service meeting and Talks and Study, "apostasy" would come up, even if the subject matter had nothing to do with apostasy, it was somehow wiggled into the outline. I asked around and apparently letters and apostate books were being circulated, like CRISIS. I remember commenting that I wouldn't waste my time and money mailing books to people I knew wouldn't appreciate them.

I recall after the School and Service meeting, I was taken to the back room, another fishing expedition. I sat down, the Presiding Overseer sat in front of me, while 4 other elders stood around, one was blocking the door. I felt like the new guy in prison about to take a shower. P.O. kept harassing me, asking me the same questions, at this point, I don't even remember what it was he was asking it was so long. Each time his voice would get higher and his face would get flushed. He would scream at me and I would reply in a soft voice, which seemed to aggravate him, because he was trying to get me riled up and lose my cool, he certainly was losing his cool. He finally had enough. He got up screaming and charged at me, it took the whole body to grab him and hold him back. I never flinched, I just looked at him and smirked. Never threaten a man who no longer cares. I left the room, picked up my bag, returned to the room and handed in my resignation from the Body. In the letter I stated, that I wanted the book study out of my home, and the only support I will give is going out in Service and not to expect anything. They announced it to the congregation but made it seemed as if I was deleted, as oppose to having resigned. NO one treated me any different, they all knew.

I remember at the Sunday meetings, when the Watchtower study was about to begin, one of the elders tapped me on the shoulder and motioned me to the back, I followed and he extended the microphone to me, I put my hands up and said "no, I don't do that anymore", he smirked as I returned to my seat.

It was funny, because my wife and I would sit up front, and listen to the talks and studies, and we would share contradicting scriptures with each other, pointing to the paragraphs. Honestly, I enjoyed messing with them, because I was in a state that I didn't care anymore. So they couldn't put the fear in me.

RR
 

Carl

Well-known member
Honestly, I enjoyed messing with them, because I was in a state that I didn't care anymore. So they couldn't put the fear in me.
Those under demonic control don’t like getting called out for being hypocrites, and they get especially frustrated when you don’t react to their attacks. IMHO this elder was under the yoke of a demon, and you saw it manifest when he came at you.
 

SusanB

Well-known member
Elders are the worst. Don't get me wrong, I have known some wonderful, sincere elders, who really cared, but there were others who were deviants, that only cared about power and status. My Presiding Overseer hated me with a passion. Towards my last year or so he tried everything in his power to get me DF'd, but there was nothing .... he had no evidence for anything. I went to all the meetings ... I worked FULL time, and still regular pioneered, that was 90 hours a month back then. I had 5 Bible studies. He would appoint appoint Servants and Elders those brothers he knew he could manipulate and mold into his way of thinking, or those he could mold and shape to do what he wanted. The whole body of Servants and Elders were fearful of him. I didn't care, he was just a man and if you wanted my respect, you had to earn it. I remember I had a part on the Service Meeting, about the latest magazines. The Awake was about marriage and in-laws, and I made a joke that "I found the articles helpful because as you know I'll be getting an in-law soon". I was engaged and getting married in a few months. He jumped down my throat and said "the podium was not for making jokes and need to be serious." That Sunday he gave the public talk, and you'd think he was a stand-up comic, making joes and laughing. At the end of the meeting, I went up to him and to his face called him a hypocrite. During the last 6 months on the body, I had my resignation letter in my suit pocket, just waiting for that last straw and hand it in.

During those last 6 months, I would get a call and all hours of day or night, "Brother, we need to speak with you know, come to the hall." I would get up and go to the hall at 9 or 10 pm and it was just a fishing expedition. During the School/Service meeting and Talks and Study, "apostasy" would come up, even if the subject matter had nothing to do with apostasy, it was somehow wiggled into the outline. I asked around and apparently letters and apostate books were being circulated, like CRISIS. I remember commenting that I wouldn't waste my time and money mailing books to people I knew wouldn't appreciate them.

I recall after the School and Service meeting, I was taken to the back room, another fishing expedition. I sat down, the Presiding Overseer sat in front of me, while 4 other elders stood around, one was blocking the door. I felt like the new guy in prison about to take a shower. P.O. kept harassing me, asking me the same questions, at this point, I don't even remember what it was he was asking it was so long. Each time his voice would get higher and his face would get flushed. He would scream at me and I would reply in a soft voice, which seemed to aggravate him, because he was trying to get me riled up and lose my cool, he certainly was losing his cool. He finally had enough. He got up screaming and charged at me, it took the whole body to grab him and hold him back. I never flinched, I just looked at him and smirked. Never threaten a man who no longer cares. I left the room, picked up my bag, returned to the room and handed in my resignation from the Body. In the letter I stated, that I wanted the book study out of my home, and the only support I will give is going out in Service and not to expect anything. They announced it to the congregation but made it seemed as if I was deleted, as oppose to having resigned. NO one treated me any different, they all knew.

I remember at the Sunday meetings, when the Watchtower study was about to begin, one of the elders tapped me on the shoulder and motioned me to the back, I followed and he extended the microphone to me, I put my hands up and said "no, I don't do that anymore", he smirked as I returned to my seat.

It was funny, because my wife and I would sit up front, and listen to the talks and studies, and we would share contradicting scriptures with each other, pointing to the paragraphs. Honestly, I enjoyed messing with them, because I was in a state that I didn't care anymore. So they couldn't put the fear in me.

RR
So sad to hear your experience but I see you handled it. Jehovah does give us the strength to endure,
 

SusanB

Well-known member
One doesn't need an organization or a governing body to worship Jehovah, and shouldn't need one. Our worship to Jehovah is a personal relationship between us and God. It should not be through men or an organization of men, whether we are associated with the organization or not.

By the same token, those who have chosen to remain associated with the organization should not be judged as weak or lacking in faith or as if they are governing body or Watchtower idolaters. Jesus said to his followers that they would be persecuted in that they would be expelled from the synogog, modern day Kingdom Halls. You can't be expelled if you chose to leave. Either way, Jesus Christ is the judge and we are told in scripture not to judge one another.

1 Corinthians 4:5 "Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the councils of the hearts; and then shall each man have his praise from God."

The governing body is stigmatizing the uninjected as being weak, lacking in faith, proud and stubborn, worldly, not disobiedient, etc.and causing other brothers and sisters to view them that way. Some are choosing NOT to follow the GB's direction on injections. Remaining associated with the organization doesn't mean a person is spiritually weak or going to become emotional or weak and confused. Not all are looking to the Watchtower of governing body as the masters of their faith, though no doubt many have been under the delusion of the Man of Lawlessness as spoken of by Paul 2 Thess 2.

Some are still associated but are so because of various reasons such as they believe Jehovah has and still is using the organization to do the preaching work or because they want to show love for their brothers and sisters when the Watchtower collapses. Some are living with family members still deluded and want to help them. Also, some remain associated because the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing in a holy place, which is the signal to get out, has not been seen to occur yet.


Jesus illustration of the wheat and weeds shows both growing together until harvest so that the wheat is not uprooted along with the weeks, then during the harvest the angels remove the weeds. At the conclusion, the harvest, the weeds are removed and burnt, wheat is gathered and put in the storehouse.
Well said and I agree that those who are able to stay will be in a position to help others at the right time. We must each make a conscience decision and not judge one another on this.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
Elders are the worst. Don't get me wrong, I have known some wonderful, sincere elders, who really cared, but there were others who were deviants, that only cared about power and status. My Presiding Overseer hated me with a passion. Towards my last year or so he tried everything in his power to get me DF'd, but there was nothing .... he had no evidence for anything. I went to all the meetings ... I worked FULL time, and still regular pioneered, that was 90 hours a month back then. I had 5 Bible studies. He would appoint appoint Servants and Elders those brothers he knew he could manipulate and mold into his way of thinking, or those he could mold and shape to do what he wanted. The whole body of Servants and Elders were fearful of him. I didn't care, he was just a man and if you wanted my respect, you had to earn it. I remember I had a part on the Service Meeting, about the latest magazines. The Awake was about marriage and in-laws, and I made a joke that "I found the articles helpful because as you know I'll be getting an in-law soon". I was engaged and getting married in a few months. He jumped down my throat and said "the podium was not for making jokes and need to be serious." That Sunday he gave the public talk, and you'd think he was a stand-up comic, making joes and laughing. At the end of the meeting, I went up to him and to his face called him a hypocrite. During the last 6 months on the body, I had my resignation letter in my suit pocket, just waiting for that last straw and hand it in.

During those last 6 months, I would get a call and all hours of day or night, "Brother, we need to speak with you know, come to the hall." I would get up and go to the hall at 9 or 10 pm and it was just a fishing expedition. During the School/Service meeting and Talks and Study, "apostasy" would come up, even if the subject matter had nothing to do with apostasy, it was somehow wiggled into the outline. I asked around and apparently letters and apostate books were being circulated, like CRISIS. I remember commenting that I wouldn't waste my time and money mailing books to people I knew wouldn't appreciate them.

I recall after the School and Service meeting, I was taken to the back room, another fishing expedition. I sat down, the Presiding Overseer sat in front of me, while 4 other elders stood around, one was blocking the door. I felt like the new guy in prison about to take a shower. P.O. kept harassing me, asking me the same questions, at this point, I don't even remember what it was he was asking it was so long. Each time his voice would get higher and his face would get flushed. He would scream at me and I would reply in a soft voice, which seemed to aggravate him, because he was trying to get me riled up and lose my cool, he certainly was losing his cool. He finally had enough. He got up screaming and charged at me, it took the whole body to grab him and hold him back. I never flinched, I just looked at him and smirked. Never threaten a man who no longer cares. I left the room, picked up my bag, returned to the room and handed in my resignation from the Body. In the letter I stated, that I wanted the book study out of my home, and the only support I will give is going out in Service and not to expect anything. They announced it to the congregation but made it seemed as if I was deleted, as oppose to having resigned. NO one treated me any different, they all knew.

I remember at the Sunday meetings, when the Watchtower study was about to begin, one of the elders tapped me on the shoulder and motioned me to the back, I followed and he extended the microphone to me, I put my hands up and said "no, I don't do that anymore", he smirked as I returned to my seat.

It was funny, because my wife and I would sit up front, and listen to the talks and studies, and we would share contradicting scriptures with each other, pointing to the paragraphs. Honestly, I enjoyed messing with them, because I was in a state that I didn't care anymore. So they couldn't put the fear in me.

RR
That dude was asking to get a big solid cucumber shoved down his throat till he chocked yelling like that. I wonder if he was in need of prune juice since he was so uptight.

(Edit): The above statement was a bit unnecessary. My mind tends to flows fast & my mouth faster so doing the aforementioned idea would've started a brawl probably. I just think if I was in that situation I probably would've just publicly DA'ed at that point. I am glad I have never dealt with an elder like that, otherwise that would have been it for me.
 
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kirmmy

Well-known member
He got up screaming and charged at me, it took the whole body to grab him and hold him back. I never flinched, I just looked at him and smirked. Never threaten a man who no longer cares.
Like a BOSS!!!! What an experience RR. Fascinating. But sorry they treated you like that. It seems though like they just weren't up to the task.:) You bested them. Glad to see that you did the right thing too and handed in your resignation.

I have an experience as well regarding a Brother I know that was quite disturbing, but another time. A bit similar to what you described. This elder just didn't like the Brother I knew and did really underhanded things to him.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
That dude was asking to get a big solid cucumber shoved down his throat till he chocked yelling like that. I wonder if he was in need of prune juice since he was so uptight.

(Edit): The above statement was a bit unnecessary. My mind tends to flows fast & my mouth faster so doing the aforementioned idea would've started a brawl probably. I just think if I was in that situation I probably would've just publicly DA'ed at that point. I am glad I have never dealt with an elder like that, otherwise that would have been it for me.
What you said is completely understandable PJ. When faced with outright hostility and aggressive action it's normal to get your back up and to defend yourself. That's the tough part, to act like Jesus did when being treated that way. RR did and showed his Christ-like maturity. For some people it can be really tough. Being charged like RR, was my first instinct would have been to drop the elder. Simple and quick. But I've always been a scraper and have self control issues. A counter attack would have been a mistake. Better to let him strike, if he wanted to, and stood for it like Jesus. It's a tough road to follow our Master sometimes...but we must. It's going to become more and more important as we move forward into increasingly difficult circumstances with Satan's world.

But that isn't saying there aren't times when self defense is justified and even necessary. Jesus, one time, was exposing the people of Nazareth to teachings from the Bible they didn't like. So much so that Jesus was led to a cliff by the people of Nazareth so that they could throw him off. The Bible said he simply walked through them. Luk 4:29,30. I'm not saying fists were thrown but he must have used some physical persuasion to wade through those militant crazies.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
What you said is completely understandable PJ. When faced with outright hostility and aggressive action it's normal to get your back up and to defend yourself. That's the tough part, to act like Jesus did when being treated that way. RR did and showed his Christ-like maturity. For some people it can be really tough. Being charged like RR, was my first instinct would have been to drop the elder. Simple and quick. But I've always been a scraper and have self control issues. A counter attack would have been a mistake. Better to let him strike, if he wanted to, and stood for it like Jesus. It's a tough road to follow our Master sometimes...but we must. It's going to become more and more important as we move forward into increasingly difficult circumstances with Satan's world.

But that isn't saying there aren't times when self defense is justified and even necessary. Jesus, one time, was exposing the people of Nazareth to teachings from the Bible they didn't like. So much so that Jesus was led to a cliff by the people of Nazareth so that they could throw him off. The Bible said he simply walked through them. Luk 4:29,30. I'm not saying fists were thrown but he must have used some physical persuasion to wade through those militant crazies.
Totally! You could expect hostility in the preaching work but not in the congregation. The congregation is supposed to be a safe place.
 
R

RR144

Guest
I have an experience as well regarding a Brother I know that was quite disturbing, but another time. A bit similar to what you described. This elder just didn't like the Brother I knew and did really underhanded things to him.
Kirmmy, This P.O. had an adult son living with him, and his son had committed fornication with a sister in the congregation. Before his son was disfellowshipped, he had his son move out and get his own place, THEN, he was disfellowshipped, because an elder is "one who manages his own household competently, having his children under control with all dignity." (1 Tim. 3:4) He didn't want to lose position.

This of course is typical. We had another elder who had a pioneer wife. They had an unbaptized teen daughter, who disappeared. We were told she went to live with her aunt in Brooklyn. One Saturday at a Circuit Assembly held at the Stanley Theater. This young girl shows up with a baby, she approached her mom, and her mom slapped her in the face and whispered in a loud voice, "How dare you come here with that child and humiliate me in front of the friends!" Her daughter had gotten pregnant and because as stated in 1 Timothy 3:4, they sent her away, so he wouldn't lose his eldership.

Amazing what people will do to keep their positions.

RR
 

PJ54

Well-known member
Kirmmy, This P.O. had an adult son living with him, and his son had committed fornication with a sister in the congregation. Before his son was disfellowshipped, he had his son move out and get his own place, THEN, he was disfellowshipped, because an elder is "one who manages his own household competently, having his children under control with all dignity." (1 Tim. 3:4) He didn't want to lose position.

This of course is typical. We had another elder who had a pioneer wife. They had an unbaptized teen daughter, who disappeared. We were told she went to live with her aunt in Brooklyn. One Saturday at a Circuit Assembly held at the Stanley Theater. This young girl shows up with a baby, she approached her mom, and her mom slapped her in the face and whispered in a loud voice, "How dare you come here with that child and humiliate me in front of the friends!" Her daughter had gotten pregnant and because as stated in 1 Timothy 3:4, they sent her away, so he wouldn't lose his eldership.

Amazing what people will do to keep their positions.

RR
That's worldly thinking right there. You would think that mentality would be in a big corporation or royalty. Do these people think God is stupid?
 

mreader

Well-known member
One doesn't need an organization or a governing body to worship Jehovah, and shouldn't need one. Or better said, one doesn't need an earthly organization led by men to worship Jehovah. Our worship to Jehovah is a personal relationship between us and God. It should not be through men or an organization of men, whether we are associated with the organization or not. But we as Christians do need to be connected with part of Christ's congregation. The organization that really matters is the invisible heavenly organization.

However Christ Jesus show that Christians need to remain a part of the Christian congregation, and part of the true vine. Christ is the vine the followers of Christ, the branches. If a branch does not remain in union with the true vine, Christ through his congregation, that branch is cast out to be burned.John 15

By the same token, those who have chosen to remain associated with the organization should not be judged as weak or lacking in faith or as if they are governing body or Watchtower idolaters. Jesus said to his followers that they would be persecuted in that they would be expelled from the synogog, modern day Kingdom Halls. You can't be expelled if you chose to leave. Either way, Jesus Christ is the judge and we are told in scripture not to judge one another.

1 Corinthians 4:5 "Wherefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and make manifest the councils of the hearts; and then shall each man have his praise from God."

The governing body is stigmatizing the uninjected as being weak, lacking in faith, proud and stubborn, worldly, not disobiedient, etc.and causing other brothers and sisters to view them that way. Some are choosing NOT to follow the GB's direction on injections. Remaining associated with the organization doesn't mean a person is spiritually weak or going to become emotional or weak and confused. Not all are looking to the Watchtower of governing body as the masters of their faith, though no doubt many have been under the delusion of the Man of Lawlessness as spoken of by Paul 2 Thess 2.

Some are still associated but are so because of various reasons such as they believe Jehovah has and still is using the organization to do the preaching work or because they want to show love for and help their brothers and sisters when the Watchtower collapses. Some are living with family members still deluded and want to help them. Also, some remain associated because the disgusting thing that causes desolation standing in a holy place, which is the signal to get out, has not been seen to occur yet.


For those who've left the organization because they felt they needed to for their mental health or happiness or whatever reason, they are certainly not to be judged by others regarding their decision. That is something between them and Jehovah and if they are happy with their decision that is between them and Jehovah. It seems sometimes those who have left tend to be anti-watchtower to the point that they have a tendency to be judgmental of those who choose not to leave at this time. We will all answer to God for our decisions, and they should therefore be our decisions. Those who choose to stay should not be stigmatized or judged for doing so by those whove chosen to leave. Why judge your brother of sister?

"But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you also look down on your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God." Romans 14:10

Jesus illustration of the wheat and weeds shows both growing together until harvest so that the wheat is not uprooted along with the weeds, then during the harvest the angels remove the weeds, burn them and gather the wheat. At the conclusion, the harvest, the weeds are removed and burnt, the wheat is gathered and put in the storehouse.

For further discussion please see Examining The Scriptures Daily Thread for Sunday February 12, 2022 Article "Do You Belong to 'God's Spirit Directed Organization'?

I like what you said: “Our worship to Jehovah is a personal relationship between us and God”.

Yes, that is why we will be judged individually not as elders claim that We are saved through the Watchtower. I kept telling them that the Watchtower can’t even save themselves (Lol..) but they will save the sheep ?! Even Jesus couldn’t save himself he depended on JEHOVAH’S mercy. But they want you to believe that the Watchtower Is your savior and without the Watchtower you are absolutely doomed.
 

mreader

Well-known member
Totally! You could expect hostility in the preaching work but not in the congregation. The congregation is supposed to be a safe place.
there was always strong animosity in the congregations.... the second things you could see/sense were a suspicions and assumptions. You maybe didn't see that openly, but it was.
 

PJ54

Well-known member
there was always strong animosity in the congregations.... the second things you could see/sense were a suspicions and assumptions. You maybe didn't see that openly, but it was.
Before the merge of the congregations, the one I had been since I started must've been in good health. I haven't spent much time in the one I was sent to so I didn't really know the situation there.
 

mreader

Well-known member
Those under demonic control don’t like getting called out for being hypocrites, and they get especially frustrated when you don’t react to their attacks. IMHO this elder was under the yoke of a demon, and you saw it manifest when he came at you.
in my case, they were simply powerless. Nothing in the world would change my mind. Their disfellowshipping means ZERO to me.
I am hard opposer to many things. The only thing that count for me are the scriptures-the Final Truth and beside that the
Faith and Obedience to CHrist and JEHOVAH. That is where the "story" ends.
 
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