NWT and World Vision

[Summit]

Very good point. I think Satan, as well as his demons, are completely convinced they can win.

Nah...Satan knows he is done, as does his demon army.

For one thing he doesn't know the day or the hour of Christ's thief like coming. And there will be new scrolls to open. How would Satan know what is in them. Other than that I can't be certain and I suspect that Satan will know as much as we do. Maybe more prehaps. But we're not sure that he knows more than Jehovah and Jesus knows. Not taking away from the fact that Satan has enough knowledge to exploit and mislead humans.



Curious as to how you could possibly know this?

Hey we've got our views, right or wrong.

I said Satan knows truth, you then said he only knows what he is allowed to know, implying that there was something that was being held back. I am speaking from the point of Satan knows the bible and the truth contained within it. Obviously God isn't going to tell him the day or hour, but I bet he's got a better idea than we do. He is getting his marching order out of heaven soon, so i'm sure heaven is getting pretty exciting up there lol.

 

[Carl]

Nah...Satan knows he is done, as does his demon army.

I think you're right about Satan, but I wouldn't be so sure about his demons and human followers. Some believe Jehovah and Satan are working together to test mankind. It's obvious to us this is a lie, but Satan is the father of the lie, which means he's a pretty convincing liar... so convincing that the elect are warned to be ready.

 

[Summit]

I think you're right about Satan, but I wouldn't be so sure about his demons and human followers. Some believe Jehovah and Satan are working together to test mankind. It's obvious to us this is a lie, but Satan is the father of the lie, which means he's a pretty convincing liar... so convincing that the elect are warned to be ready.

His demons, if you can call them his, also made their own choice to rebel. He was just the first. I doubt Satan could even use deception against the other angels to get them to sin. I'm sure he enticed them with all the fun he was having getting humans to worship him, but they knew when they made the choice to sin what the end result would be, of that we can be certain. The other demons are just as smart as Satan is, and they all know what the truth is, that they are going to die for eternity. I completely agree about the human followers who follow Lucifer and believe he's the true God, but they've got a big surprise coming. Anybody who believes that Satan and Jehovah are working together doesn't understand what the bible teaches. Jehovah doesn't kill those who work together with him, only those who are against him.

 

[Carl]

His demons, if you can call them his, also made their own choice to rebel. He was just the first. I doubt Satan could even use deception against the other angels to get them to sin. I'm sure he enticed them with all the fun he was having getting humans to worship him, but they knew when they made the choice to sin what the end result would be, of that we can be certain. The other demons are just as smart as Satan is, and they all know what the truth is, that they are going to die for eternity. I completely agree about the human followers who follow Lucifer and believe he's the true God, but they've got a big surprise coming. Anybody who believes that Satan and Jehovah are working together doesn't understand what the bible teaches. Jehovah doesn't kill those who work together with him, only those who are against him.

Like Adam, I believe Satan deceived most, if not all of the angels who rebelled. He's a cunning liar and a powerful angel. Jehovah allowed for them to be deceived, just as he allowed for Adam to take the bait. I'm not giving the demons a pass, just pointing out how good Satan is at lying. I'm not even sure Satan knew the ramifications of his choices at first due to his arrogance. When you turn from Jehovah, you lose his HS... so you lose rational thinking skills. I believe Satan could have believed he would defeat Jehovah, but he found out very quickly this won't happen. I also believe Jehovah allows Satan's minions to be under his delusions, so it's very possible they still believe they can win. I don't believe all angels are equal in intelligence and power. I'd bet there are thousands of categories and levels we can't even fathom. I believe Satan was the 2nd most powerful angel besides Michael. So I definitely don't think the demons following Satan are as smart as he is.

 

[Summit]

Like Adam, I believe Satan deceived most, if not all of the angels who rebelled. He's a cunning liar and a powerful angel. Jehovah allowed for them to be deceived, just as he allowed for Adam to take the bait. I'm not giving the demons a pass, just pointing out how good Satan is at lying. I'm not even sure Satan knew the ramifications of his choices at first due to his arrogance. When you turn from Jehovah, you lose his HS... so you lose rational thinking skills. I believe Satan could have believed he would defeat Jehovah, but he found out very quickly this won't happen. I also believe Jehovah allows Satan's minions to be under his delusions, so it's very possible they still believe they can win. I don't believe all angels are equal in intelligence and power. I'd bet there are thousands of categories and levels we can't even fathom. I believe Satan was the 2nd most powerful angel besides Michael. So I definitely don't think the demons following Satan are as smart as he is.

Satan didn't deceive Adam.

. . .Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression. . . (1Ti 2:14)

 

[Summit]

I believe Satan could have believed he would defeat Jehovah, but he found out very quickly this won't happen. I also believe Jehovah allows Satan's minions to be under his delusions, so it's very possible they still believe they can win. I don't believe all angels are equal in intelligence and power. I'd bet there are thousands of categories and levels we can't even fathom. I believe Satan was the 2nd most powerful angel besides Michael. So I definitely don't think the demons following Satan are as smart as he is.

The angels, low level and high, were PERFECT. They were, and still are, incredibly intelligent. If there were different levels of intelligence I would have to say even the lower levels are light years more intelligent than any human. It is not intelligence that determines whether one chooses to sin, but the heart.

 

[Carl]

Satan didn't deceive Adam.

. . .Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression. . . (1Ti 2:14)

Paul was saying Satan deceived Eve... but Adam was deceived by Satan through Eve. He didn't eat the fruit knowing he was killing himself. How many angels were deceived by other angel and not Satan directly? We'll probably never know. How many humans are deceived by Satan's minions? I don't think he interacts will all the humans who follow him.

 

[Carl]

The angels, low level and high, were PERFECT. They were, and still are, incredibly intelligent. If there were different levels of intelligence I would have to say even the lower levels are light years more intelligent than any human. It is not intelligence that determines whether one chooses to sin, but the heart.

Adam and Eve were perfect, and most likely the most intelligent humans ever, yet they were deceived. I know some pretty intelligent people who aren't very street smart or wise. Intelligence doesn't confer wisdom... it's actually quite the opposite in many cases. The most intelligent people are often arrogant and overly confident in their own thinking skills. You're right about sin.

 

[Summit]

Paul was saying Satan deceived Eve... but Adam was deceived by Satan through Eve. He didn't eat the fruit knowing he was killing himself. How many angels were deceived by other angel and not Satan directly? We'll probably never know. How many humans are deceived by Satan's minions? I don't think he interacts will all the humans who follow him.

Paul was saying Adam wasn't deceived. You can read into it whatever you want. Adam didn't buy Satans lie, bottom line. He knew he would die, and he knew he couldn't be like God. And again, I don't believe ANY angels were deceived. The most intelligent people often come across as arrogant and overly confident because they are intelligent and know what they are talking about. Yes I agree, some actually are arrogant and overly confident, but that doesn't mean all of them are, nor does it mean that the arrogant and confident ones don't know what they are talking about. As you say then, it comes down to wisdom rather than intelligence.

 

[Carl]

Paul was saying Adam wasn't deceived. You can read into it whatever you want. Adam didn't buy Satans lie, bottom line. He knew he would die, and he knew he couldn't be like God. And again, I don't believe ANY angels were deceived. The most intelligent people often come across as arrogant and overly confident because they are intelligent and know what they are talking about. Yes I agree, some actually are arrogant and overly confident, but that doesn't mean all of them are, nor does it mean that the arrogant and confident ones don't know what they are talking about. As you say then, it comes down to wisdom rather than intelligence.

I don't believe Adam knew he was going to die. If you can show me a verse that says that, I'll change my opinion. Otherwise, we can agree to disagree on topics we can't prove. I don't like to argue over personal conjecture, as it gets us nowhere.

 

[Summit]

I don't believe Adam knew he was going to die. If you can show me a verse that says that, I'll change my opinion. Otherwise, we can agree to disagree on topics we can't prove. I don't like to argue over personal conjecture, as it gets us nowhere.

I already did. ". . .Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression. . . "(1Ti 2:14)

Who was the deceiver? Satan. Who told the lies? Satan. Who was not deceived by the lies? Adam. Its black and white Carl, if that isn't proof I don't know what is to you.

 

[Melinda Riling]

I already did. ". . .Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression. . . "(1Ti 2:14)

Who was the deceiver? Satan. Who told the lies? Satan. Who was not deceived by the lies? Adam. Its black and white Carl, if that isn't proof I don't know what is to you.

It was always my understanding as well that Adam was not deceived...which made his sin even worse. Adam would have rathered died than be without Eve. Remember how long Adam had been alone without a mate. Jehovah could of created another woman and therefore sin and death would not have spread to all mankind. I can not imagine that Jehovah would put mankind on this path because Adam and Eve was tricked. The sin that put us on this path was deliberate knowing full well the consequences.

 

[Carl]

I already did. ". . .Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression. . . "(1Ti 2:14)

Who was the deceiver? Satan. Who told the lies? Satan. Who was not deceived by the lies? Adam. Its black and white Carl, if that isn't proof I don't know what is to you.

I believe Paul was pointing out that Eve was deceived by Satan initially, not Adam. He didn't go into depth, leaving it open for interpretation. You have your opinion, I have mine, so we can agree to disagree. I don't believe Paul was giving more information on what happened in the Garden.

Genesis 3:6 "Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it."

Genesis 3:17 "And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice..."

If you can show me where it says Adam knew he was going to die, I'll change my opinion. He knew he was disobeying Jehovah, but he "listened to his wife," who had been deceived by Satan. Therefore Adam could have believed the lie she was told by Satan.

 

[Summit]

It was always my understanding as well that Adam was not deceived...which made his sin even worse. Adam would have rathered died than be without Eve. Remember how long Adam had been alone without a mate. Jehovah could of created another woman and therefore sin and death would not have spread to all mankind.

Could be, sin is sin though. When one hasn't sinned yet...even the smallest tiny of tiny itty bitty teensy wheenie sins is really really bad.

 

[Summit]

I believe Paul was pointing out that Eve was deceived by Satan initially, not Adam. He didn't go into depth, leaving it open for interpretation. You have your opinion, I have mine, so we can agree to disagree. I don't believe Paul was giving more information on what happened in the Garden.

Genesis 3:6 "Consequently, the woman saw that the tree was good for food and that it was something desirable to the eyes, yes, the tree was pleasing to look at. So she began taking of its fruit and eating it. Afterward, she also gave some to her husband when he was with her, and he began eating it."

Genesis 3:17 "And to Adam he said: “Because you listened to your wife’s voice..."

If you can show me where it says Adam knew he was going to die, I'll change my opinion. He knew he was disobeying Jehovah, but he "listened to his wife," who had been deceived by Satan. Therefore Adam could have believed the lie she was told by Satan.

Carl, the lie was the same regardless of where it came from Satan, or Eve. Let me ask you this. What was Adam not deceived by?

 

[Carl]

Carl, the lie was the same regardless of where it came from Satan, or Eve. Let me ask you this. What was Adam not deceived by?

He was deceived because he listened to his wife.. whatever his motivation was. So he was deceived by Satan, through his wife.

 

[Summit]

He was deceived because he listened to his wife.. whatever his motivation was. So he was deceived by Satan, through his wife.

I asked what he wasn't deceived by. Not what he was. The scripture says "Adam was not deceived". So what is it that he was not deceived by?

 

[Carl]

As I said... I don't think Paul was saying Adam wasn't deceived at all... I believe he was saying he wasn't deceived by Satan originally.

 

[Summit]

As I said... I don't think Paul was saying Adam wasn't deceived at all... I believe he was saying he wasn't deceived by Satan originally.

Great, then we agree on this. We were talking about whether Satan deceived the angels, and you said along with Adam, you felt Satan deceived a bunch of other angels. I posted the scripture and it brought us inline with each other, finally. Thank goodness for that Carl. I'm sorry if you felt I was being arrogant or overly confident, but when a scripture is black and white like that, then there is no reason to be wishy washy.

 

[Carl]

Great, then we agree on this. We were talking about whether Satan deceived the angels, and you said along with Adam, you felt Satan deceived a bunch of other angels. I posted the scripture and it brought us inline with each other, finally. Thank goodness for that Carl. I'm sorry if you felt I was being arrogant or overly confident, but when a scripture is black and white like that, then there is no reason to be wishy washy.

I didn't feel you were being arrogant. I enjoy debating because it forces me to defend my opinion or alter it based on better information. I believe I'll be proven wrong about a lot of my opinions when Jesus clears things up.

 

[Jahrule]

I don't know if Satan actually believes he can win, but I would bet he's convinced his demons they can. He obviously lied in order to get them on his side, so it makes sense that his human followers believe they'll win as well. They don't have the Holy Spirit in them, so they don't think rationally. They may be intelligent, but they aren't wise. I think they'll realize they lost in the latter half of the HOT, which will make them extremely angry.

We all know how the fight is really gonna go.

 

[MickHewitt]

We all know how the fight is really gonna go.

I would love to know what Christ said to those in Tartarus! Why visit them? If it wasn't to give instruction that could be of their benefit? 1Peter3:19......While Satan was walking about in heaven he was no doubt a fearful seductive entity......moving on to Rev12:12 Once the Devil is ousted from heaven the announcement is a relief "On this account be glad you heavens and you who reside in them!" What a relief to them when he is gone!? Woe to the earth though....but thanks to our informed position we are aware he is about to be thrown down! All the more reason to pray for our host and each other for we must be most despised by him!

 

[MickHewitt]

I would love to know what Christ said to those in Tartarus! Why visit them? If it wasn't to give instruction that could be of their benefit? 1Peter3:19......While Satan was walking about in heaven he was no doubt a fearful seductive entity......moving on to Rev12:12 Once the Devil is ousted from heaven the announcement is a relief "On this account be glad you heavens and you who reside in them!" What a relief to them when he is gone!? Woe to the earth though....but thanks to our informed position we are aware he is about to be thrown down! All the more reason to pray for our host and each other for we must be most despised by him!

For look what he does soon as thrown down Rev12:17 "So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the comandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus!" Our bro's and sis' traduced by Bethel have no witness concerning our Christ because they have been seduced by the apostasy fortetold in 2Thess9: 'Every powerful work and lying sign'...We are the ones in reciept of holy accepted truths! Isa52:11 We, who leaving Jerusalem are carrying the holy utensils of Jehovah's truths! Who has despised the day of small things? Zech4:10: Even now it is springing up, do you not recognise it? Isa43:19! Who else are in receipt of these truths?

 

[Seventy5]

I said Satan knows truth, you then said he only knows what he is allowed to know, implying that there was something that was being held back.

As I said he knows as much as we know maybe more. But only what he is allowed to know. Ah but you are the one who is reading into it an implication. but we won't split hairs.

It was always my understanding as well that Adam was not deceived...which made his sin even worse. Adam would have rathered died than be without Eve. Remember how long Adam had been alone without a mate. Jehovah could of created another woman and therefore sin and death would not have spread to all mankind. I can not imagine that Jehovah would put mankind on this path because Adam and Eve was tricked. The sin that put us on this path was deliberate knowing full well the consequences.

Adam was not deceived. Only Eve. In spite of Eve taking the fruit I believe all was not lost, but as you alluded Adam partook wilfully which caused the sin. The record shows that through one man sin entered into the world. No mention of no woman. If Adam did not dis-obey Jehovah, Likely he AND the Mrs would still be here now. But then we would not have been. So thanks to Adam for blowing it.

 

[Carl]

Adam was not deceived. Only Eve. In spite of Eve taking the fruit I believe all was not lost, but as you alluded Adam partook wilfully which caused the sin. The record shows that through one man sin entered into the world. No mention of no woman. If Adam did not dis-obey Jehovah, Likely he AND the Mrs would still be here now. But then we would not have been. So thanks to Adam for blowing it.

Do you believe Adam ate the fruit knowing he was going to die? I don't think he knowingly gave up his life because Eve was beautiful. I think he knew it was a sin, but Eve convinced him they wouldn't die because of Satan's lie. It doesn't really matter either way, but you're right that sin came through Adam because Jehovah held him to a higher standard. He expects men to be leaders by following his instructions. This doesn't mean women can sin without consequence, but since Jehovah created us to be husband and wife, he expects the husband to lead by example.