NWT and World Vision

Carl said:
Do you believe Adam ate the fruit knowing he was going to die? I don't think he knowingly gave up his life because Eve was beautiful. I think he knew it was a sin, but Eve convinced him they wouldn't die because of Satan's lie. It doesn't really matter either way, but you're right that sin came through Adam because Jehovah held him to a higher standard. He expects men to be leaders by following his instructions. This doesn't mean women can sin without consequence, but since Jehovah created us to be husband and wife, he expects the husband to lead by example.
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Genesis 2:15-17: 15 Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die."

Adam knew he would die, he wasn't deceived. He had no reason to believe that some snake or Eve would know better than Jehovah.
 
Jonah said:
Genesis 2:15-17: 15 Jehovah God took the man and settled him in the garden of Eʹden to cultivate it and to take care of it. 16 Jehovah God also gave this command to the man: “From every tree of the garden you may eat to satisfaction. 17 But as for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad, you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die."

Adam knew he would die, he wasn't deceived. He had no reason to believe that some snake or Eve would know better than Jehovah.
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When Adam saw that Eve had eaten the fruit and lived, he very well could have thought Jehovah lied to him. Adam choose to believe his wife and sin against Jehovah. Who knows why? I don't believe he ate it believing that doing so would end his life.
 
Carl said:
When Adam saw that Eve had eaten the fruit and lived, he very well could have thought Jehovah lied to him. Adam choose to believe his wife and sin against Jehovah. Who knows why? I don't believe he ate it believing that doing so would end his life.
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So when Paul said Eve was deceived but Adam was not, what was he referring to? The fact is that Adam willingly sinned, just like Satan, and that is why he is blamed instead of Eve.
 
Carl said:
I don't believe he ate it believing that doing so would end his life.
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What part of this do you not understand? "...for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die."
Die means live prehaps.
 
Jonah said:
So when Paul said Eve was deceived but Adam was not, what was he referring to? The fact is that Adam willingly sinned, just like Satan, and that is why he is blamed instead of Eve.
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I think Paul was eluding to the fact that Eve was deceived first. I could be wrong and I'm OK with that, but when I look at everything in totality, it makes sense to me that Satan lied to Eve, she then brought some fruit to Adam, and when he saw that she didn't die after eating it, he decided to eat some. I'm not trying to excuse either one, but I believe he was deceived by Eve, but it's his fault for allowing it.
 
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DR75 less 1 said:
What part of this do you not understand? "...for in the day you eat from it you will certainly die."
Die means live prehaps.
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Again... when Adam saw the Eve was still living after eating the fruit, he could have questioned what Jehovah had told him.
 
Carl said:
Again... when Adam saw the Eve was still living after eating the fruit, he could have questioned what Jehovah had told him.
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You're making the implication about what may or may not have transpired. You do accept that Jehovah told Adam that he would die if he ate the fruit of the tree that he was not allowed to." Gen. 2:17.
 
DR75 less 1 said:
You're making the implication about what may or may not have transpired. You do accept that Jehovah told Adam that he would die if he ate the fruit of the tree that he was not allowed to." Gen. 2:17.
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The reason there are thousands of denominations of Christianity is because the Bible leaves a lot open to interpretation. This is one topic that's open for conjecture. I don't believe Adam thought he would die after eating the fruit because he saw Eve was still alive. This means he was deceived into eating it. Yes, Jehovah told him he would die, but after seeing Eve still alive who knows what went through his head. He may have wondered if Jehovah had lied to him. He probably didn't even know what a lie was, so this probably made him question his faith.

What he should have done was call out to Jehovah and ask for clarification, but instead he trusted his wife over his creator. She deceived him because she was deceived. After eating the fruit, her eyes were opened in a bad sense, which means she became more like Satan, and less innocent and child-like. Big mistake, and a lesson for all of us... when in doubt pray to Jehovah for answers. The MOTB will be a similar lie that Satan will use to deceive people. I doubt anyone will accept it knowing they will die. There may be some who know, but choose it because they want their reward now instead of later.
 
Carl said:
The reason there are thousands of denominations of Christianity is because the Bible leaves a lot open to interpretation. This is one topic that's open for conjecture. I don't believe Adam thought he would die after eating the fruit because he saw Eve was still alive. This means he was deceived into eating it. Yes, Jehovah told him he would die, but after seeing Eve still alive who knows what went through his head. He may have wondered if Jehovah had lied to him. He probably didn't even know what a lie was, so this probably made him question his faith.

What he should have done was call out to Jehovah and ask for clarification, but instead he trusted his wife over his creator. She deceived him because she was deceived. After eating the fruit, her eyes were opened in a bad sense, which means she became more like Satan, and less innocent and child-like. Big mistake, and a lesson for all of us... when in doubt pray to Jehovah for answers. The MOTB will be a similar lie that Satan will use to deceive people. I doubt anyone will accept it knowing they will die. There may be some who know, but choose it because they want their reward now instead of later.
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Your conjecture is out of step with the fact the Jehovah told Adam that he would die. But by all means continue with your conjecture. I'll leave you with your stuff...
 
DR75 less 1 said:
Your conjecture is out of step with the fact the Jehovah told Adam that he would die. But by all means continue with your conjecture. I'll leave you with your stuff...
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I don't think you get it, so I'm done with this discussion.
 
Jehovah told Adam he would die if he ate the fruit. Adam saw that Eve ate the fruit and lived. Adam may have questioned his faith/trust in Jehovah. He didn't eat the fruit believing he would die, because Eve was still alive, so he believed the lie Eve had believed... thus he was deceived. She probably ate a piece right in front of him.
 
Jahrule said:
Very good point. I think Satan, as well as his demons, are completely convinced they can win.
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Seems to me Satan knows he won't win, he knows his time is short and if he's going down, he's taking as many as he possibly can. Of course, he's ignorant of God's plans and purposes.
 
Summit said:
Satan didn't deceive Adam.

. . .Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and came to be in transgression. . . (1Ti 2:14)
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So, what do you believe is his fate?
 
KingdomLeast said:
So you believe he's in second death? No hope of a resurrection?
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I was talking about this thread with my son and his church friend last night. It's not crystal clear what happens to Adam & Eve. On the one hand they were perfect, and Jehovah gave them clear instructions, which they disobeyed. As perfect human they were most likely (I try not to assume I know anything I can't prove) the most intelligent humans ever. They were also child-like in their innocence though, and had no concept of what a lie was. So here comes this serpent who tricks Eve into eating the fruit. She then proceeds to tell Adam what she was told, and I would guess he was pretty confused. On the one hand Jehovah told them they would die if they ate the fruit, yet here's Eve... still living, possible eating some of the fruit to show Adam it's OK. It had to be a pretty confusing situation.

I just don't believe Adam thought he would die if he ate the fruit... so he was deceived by Eve. I'm in no way excusing his actions, I'm just trying to understand his thought process. Could he now be questioning his faith or trust in Jehovah? Obviously we know the outcome, but put yourself in Adam's situation. His creator told him he would die if he ate the fruit, but Eve was still alive. Hindsight is 20/20, so it's easy for us to say what we would have done. He should have immediately told Eve she was still wrong to disobey Jehovah, and then begged Jah for an answer as to why she hadn't died.

I'm glad I'm not in charge of who does and doesn't get resurrected, because this is a tough call. Adam & Eve, although perfect, were blindsided by a situation they had possibly no preparation for... a lie. It doesn't matter to me if they are or aren't resurrected. I simply enjoy digging into topics like this because they make me think. This discussion made me think about the MOTB, and how Satan will lie in order to get people to take it. I know this discussion is pointless to some since they feel this topic is settled. I don't agree, and that's OK. I just don't want to see negativity or ridicule brought into the discussion. It turns people off when we Christians speak in absolutes about topics we can't prove 100%.

Robert does an excellent job of using the Bible to explain these topics, but since there are so many translations and differences of opinion... sometimes it's necessary to agree to disagree. The topic of hell, Jesus being Michael, the trinity (thanks to John 1:1 being mistranslated), Jephthah's daughter... and many others cause division. I don't believe hell is eternal, but because of the story about Lazarus and the rich man... I can't tell someone they're wrong if they do. I can try to explain why I believe Jesus is Michael, but again it's not worth it to argue as if I'm 100% correct. The Bible is intentionally left open to interpretation in some places in order to test our faith. Ultimately Jesus will give PERFECT clarification when he returns. Until then all we have is our personal Bible trained conscience to go by.
 
KingdomLeast said:
So you believe he's in second death? No hope of a resurrection?
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The jury isn't in. Who am I to judge any decision God makes? Adam was perfect and chose to sin so the odds arent great, but if he wants to resurrect Adam thats up to him. I got a few questions if he does though.
 
Carl said:
I just don't believe Adam thought he would die if he ate the fruit... so he was deceived by Eve. I'm in no way excusing his actions, I'm just trying to understand his thought process.
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Carl, I'm not gonna lie, that is some scary stuff you are doing here, i'm telling you straight out. When the bible states "Adam was not deceived" and then you try to find a reason that he WAS deceived, you are manipulating the truth to your own narrative. Thats not a good thing. Thats exactly what is going on all around us in the world today. A man can be a woman. The fundamental truth is a man cannot ever be a woman, but when you ask somebody that question quite often you get 'they can if they want to be'. How do they come up with that answer, because they are manipulating truth to a narrative that has been adopted by the woke mob. They have allowed a false narrative to define what truth is and in doing so have enabled themselves to believe a lie. Once a person starts doing that, then really ask yourself, where do they stand regarding any truth if they have already allowed the most basic of truths to be questioned. If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything. I'm not going to fall for that type of logic regarding Adam being deceived when the scriptures are quite clear. A man is a man always, a woman is a woman always, and Adam was NOT deceived by any lie that was brought forth by Satan, or Eve. Look at the bold part of what you said I highlighted above. Now look at the scripture.

". . Adam was not deceived..." (1Ti 2:14)
 
Summit said:
Carl, I'm not gonna lie, that is some scary stuff you are doing here, i'm telling you straight out. When the bible states "Adam was not deceived" and then you try to find a reason that he WAS deceived, you are manipulating the truth to your own narrative. Thats not a good thing. Thats exactly what is going on all around us in the world today. A man can be a woman. The fundamental truth is a man cannot ever be a woman, but when you ask somebody that question quite often you get 'they can if they want to be'. How do they come up with that answer, because they are manipulating truth to a narrative that has been adopted by the woke mob. They have allowed a false narrative to define what truth is and in doing so have enabled themselves to believe a lie. Once a person starts doing that, then really ask yourself, where do they stand regarding any truth if they have already allowed the most basic of truths to be questioned. If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything. I'm not going to fall for that type of logic regarding Adam being deceived when the scriptures are quite clear. A man is a man always, a woman is a woman always, and Adam was NOT deceived by any lie that was brought forth by Satan, or Eve. Look at the bold part of what you said I highlighted above. Now look at the scripture.

". . Adam was not deceived..." (1Ti 2:14)
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I disagree with your opinion, and I've explained why 6 ways from Sunday. You can choose to have another understanding, but please don't claim I'm manipulating the truth! Either Adam was deceived or he ate the fruit knowing was going to die. I believe Paul was referring to Eve's being deceived by Satan, not Adam... who wasn't the one deceived by Satan. You have your view, and I'm entitled to mine.

This is what turns many people off from Bible discussions... the I'm right, you're wrong mentality you're displaying here. I'm not claiming to be right, but I'm not convinced you are either. The fact is, the Bible has some topics that seem to contradict others. I pointed out a few. One is Jephthah. We're told Jehovah doesn't condone human sacrifice, yet Jephthah devotes his daughter to be a "burnt offering." Which is it? I believe he devoted his daughter to the Temple the same way Hannah devoted Samuel, but I can't prove it.
 
I love this forum because of our shared faith in Jehovah. I especially enjoy the debates because they force me to think, and dig into the Scriptures. I've changed my opinion when a better argument is raised, but I don't bend to peer pressure. I don't care if everyone on the forum believes I'm wrong about Adam. My faith isn't about consensus. I'm here because I agree with the vast majority of Robert's work.
 
Carl said:
I disagree with your opinion, and I've explained why 6 ways from Sunday. You can choose to have another understanding, but please don't claim I'm manipulating the truth! Either Adam was deceived or he ate the fruit knowing was going to die. I believe Paul was referring to Eve's being deceived by Satan, not Adam... who wasn't the one deceived by Satan. You have your view, and I'm entitled to mine.

This is what turns many people off from Bible discussions... the I'm right, you're wrong mentality you're displaying here. I'm not claiming to be right, but I'm not convinced you are either. The fact is, the Bible has some topics that seem to contradict others. I pointed out a few. One is Jephthah. We're told Jehovah doesn't condone human sacrifice, yet Jephthah devotes his daughter to be a "burnt offering." Which is it? I believe he devoted his daughter to the Temple the same way Hannah devoted Samuel, but I can't prove it.
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First lets realize that what I am saying is certainly not an opinion. An opinion is something that is based on a point of view, not necessarily a fact. Yes, the bible is full of teachings that can be taken a number of ways, but there are many things that are point blank. God is Love. Many people who don't believe that have their own opinion don't they? Yet the fact is God is Love. Jesus is the firstborn of God. Yet to those who don't believe they have their own opinion. There is a saying about opinions but I won't use it here...lets just say everybody has one. So does that mean everything must just be opinion Carl? The problem with that type of logic is that opinions often change when somebody presents a better theory.
When the bible states that "...Adam was not deceived" that is not an opinion. Ok, maybe he was a little deceived right? I mean just an iota of disbelief was there. In Adams opinion, maybe it was safe to eat the fruit? After all Eve was still alive, right? If you believe any of that then you invalidate the scripture that says "...Adam was NOT deceived...".

Your faith obviously shouldn't be about consensus, but when you question a simple truth from the scriptures, there is something else at play. Carl, I have read many of your other comments on other threads, and even though I don't know you, you have given the forum insight into your life and those around you consistently enough to say I feel like I do kinda know you. I'm going out on a limb here, and I sincerely apologize if I am overstepping, but you have posted so much regarding your relationship with your family. Maybe if you stood more for truth instead of questioning everything, your son would see that too. How do you expect to make him see what you believe when you don't even know what it is you believe in?
 
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Carl said:
I love this forum because of our shared faith in Jehovah. I especially enjoy the debates because they force me to think, and dig into the Scriptures. I've changed my opinion when a better argument is raised, but I don't bend to peer pressure. I don't care if everyone on the forum believes I'm wrong about Adam. My faith isn't about consensus. I'm here because I agree with the vast majority of Robert's work.
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What you say here Carl is your beautiful truth. I have personally witnessed you time after time be very reasonable in your dealings with some and I have seen your flexibility (again, very reasonable) when items of interest are pointed out to you to the degree that you make adjustments to your thinking. I find you an excellent example of someone who is firm in their own personal beliefs but not ultra-stuck to them just for the sake of personal ambition or pride. I totally appreciate that about you and thank you for all your massive insights here on this forum. I also enjoy the privilege you extend to me and others to disagree with you on some of your points, thank you.

I have read with some (but not a ton of) interest your current exchange with @Summit and have decided not to get too involved in it with you guys. I am leaning a bit toward Summit's reasoning but truly love your statement as seen above "but I don't bend to peer pressure" and another "My faith isn't about consensus". I would not have it any other way in my limited opinion.
 
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