NWT and World Vision

[Summit]

What you say here Carl is your beautiful truth. I have personally witnessed you time after time be very reasonable in your dealings with some and I have seen your flexibility (again, very reasonable) when items of interest are pointed out to you to the degree that you make adjustments to your thinking. I find you an excellent example of someone who is firm in their own personal beliefs but not ultra-stuck to them just for the sake of personal ambition or pride. I totally appreciate that about you and thank you for all your massive insights here on this forum. I also enjoy the privilege you extend to me and others to disagree with you on some of your points, thank you.

I have read with some (but not a ton of) interest your current exchange with @Summit and have decided not to get too involved in it with you guys. I am leaning a bit toward Summit's reasoning but truly love your statement as seen above "but I don't bend to peer pressure" and another "My faith isn't about consensus". I would not have it any other way in my limited opinion.

Nicely said Meditator

 

[Carl]

First lets realize that what I am saying is certainly not an opinion. An opinion is something that is based on a point of view, not necessarily a fact. Yes, the bible is full of teachings that can be taken a number of ways, but there are many things that are point blank. God is Love. Many people who don't believe that have their own opinion don't they? Yet the fact is God is Love. Jesus is the firstborn of God. Yet to those who don't believe they have their own opinion. There is a saying about opinions but I won't use it here...lets just say everybody has one. So does that mean everything must just be opinion Carl? The problem with that type of logic is that opinions often change when somebody presents a better theory.
When the bible states that "...Adam was not deceived" that is not an opinion. Ok, maybe he was a little deceived right? I mean just an iota of disbelief was there. In Adams opinion, maybe it was safe to eat the fruit? After all Eve was still alive, right? If you believe any of that then you invalidate the scripture that says "...Adam was NOT deceived...".

Your faith obviously shouldn't be about consensus, but when you question a simple truth from the scriptures, there is something else at play. Carl, I have read many of your other comments on other threads, and even though I don't know you, you have given the forum insight into your life and those around you consistently enough to say I feel like I do kinda know you. I'm going out on a limb here, and I sincerely apologize if I am overstepping, but you have posted so much regarding your relationship with your family. Maybe if you stood more for truth instead of questioning everything, your son would see that too. How do you expect to make him see what you believe when you don't even know what it is you believe in?

Conjecture... opinion... potato... potatoe... whatever you want to call it is fine. You and I disagree with what we believe Paul was thinking. So basically it boils down to whether or not Adam ate the fruit knowing he was going to die. If he wasn't deceived as you believe, then he ate it knowing he was going to die. I believe Paul was saying he wasn't deceived into eating it by Satan, but there's no mention of Eve's deception. We can agree to disagree.

 

[Carl]

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I decided to re-read every verse that mentions Adam. First, I see no definite statement from the Bible saying he won't be resurrected. Many assume he won't since he was perfect, but if I'm going to be honest with myself, if it's not clearly stated in the Bible... then it's someone's or some group's opinion. I want to deal with facts. Second, Paul was known to interject his opinion in his writings. So when he said:

1 Timothy 2:11-15 "Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor. However, she will be kept safe through childbearing, provided she continues in faith and love and holiness along with soundness of mind."

When Paul said "I do not permit a woman to speak," was this inspired or was he speaking for himself? If this was from Jehovah, then why are women allowed to speak in Kingdom Halls today? We can't have it both ways, either this was a command from Jehovah, or it was Paul speaking for himself, which is something he did elsewhere in the Bible. If we're going to take his every word as literally from Jehovah, then women shouldn't be allowed to talk in KHs. He was obviously interjecting his opinion... hence the use of "I" and not "God."

Personally, I believe Paul was a ting anti-female for whatever reason. When I read the above verses, to me he's blaming Eve for being deceived, not Adam, and using that as a justification to believe women aren't worthy of being heard in church. I don't think he's inspired here. I've heard men blame Eve for mankind's downfall, which makes me wonder how many women have suffered abuse as a result of this mentality. I love Paul and so I'm not judging him or claiming he wasn't inspired elsewhere. I just know for a fact he admitted to putting his personal opinion into his writings at times. This is one instance I believe he could be doing this. Therefore, I rely on critical thinking skills. If we're supposed to take one verse, "Adam was not deceived," and take it at face value without viewing it in the context of what Paul's previous words said... then we have to do the same about Jephthah and other verses. We can't pick and choose when the Bible is literal and when it requires critical thinking.

 

[MickHewitt]

I'm not trying to beat a dead horse, but I decided to re-read every verse that mentions Adam. First, I see no definite statement from the Bible saying he won't be resurrected. Many assume he won't since he was perfect, but if I'm going to be honest with myself, if it's not clearly stated in the Bible... then it's someone's or some group's opinion. I want to deal with facts. Second, Paul was known to interject his opinion in his writings. So when he said:

1 Timothy 2:11-15 "Let a woman learn in silence with full submissiveness. I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but she is to remain silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. Also, Adam was not deceived, but the woman was thoroughly deceived and became a transgressor. However, she will be kept safe through childbearing, provided she continues in faith and love and holiness along with soundness of mind."

When Paul said "I do not permit a woman to speak," was this inspired or was he speaking for himself? If this was from Jehovah, then why are women allowed to speak in Kingdom Halls today? We can't have it both ways, either this was a command from Jehovah, or it was Paul speaking for himself, which is something he did elsewhere in the Bible. If we're going to take his every word as literally from Jehovah, then women shouldn't be allowed to talk in KHs. He was obviously interjecting his opinion... hence the use of "I" and not "God."

Personally, I believe Paul was a ting anti-female for whatever reason. When I read the above verses, to me he's blaming Eve for being deceived, not Adam, and using that as a justification to believe women aren't worthy of being heard in church. I don't think he's inspired here. I've heard men blame Eve for mankind's downfall, which makes me wonder how many women have suffered abuse as a result of this mentality? I love Paul and so I'm not judging him or claiming he wasn't inspired elsewhere. I just know for a fact he admitted to putting his personal opinion into his writings at times. This is one instance I believe he could be doing this. Therefore, I rely on critical thinking skills. If we're supposed to take one verse, "Adam was not deceived," and take it at face value without viewing it in the context of what Paul's previous words said... then we have to do the same about Jephthah and other verses. We can't pick and choose when the Bible is literal and when it requires critical thinking.

Wow lovely brother you must be a Beroean!

 

[Carl]

Wow lovely brother you must be a Beroean!

This forum has made me one. lol I love this place!

 

[Watchman]

Personally, I believe Paul was a ting anti-female for whatever reason. When I read the above verses, to me he's blaming Eve for being deceived, not Adam, and using that as a justification to believe women aren't worthy of being heard in church. I don't think he's inspired here. I've heard men blame Eve for mankind's downfall, which makes me wonder how many women have suffered abuse as a result of this mentality. I love Paul and so I'm not judging him or claiming he wasn't inspired elsewhere. I just know for a fact he admitted to putting his personal opinion into his writings at times. This is one instance I believe he could be doing this. Therefore, I rely on critical thinking skills. If we're supposed to take one verse, "Adam was not deceived," and take it at face value without viewing it in the context of what Paul's previous words said... then we have to do the same about Jephthah and other verses. We can't pick and choose when the Bible is literal and when it requires critical thinking.

It wasn't a Paul thing. Women were not permitted to be priests or preside in the synagogue long before the Christian era. God created man to be the head of women. Period. It is the ARRANGEMENT. It has been from the beginning. "I commend you because in all things you remember me and you are holding fast the traditions just as I handed them on to you. But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."

Satan is the promoter of women to be the head. That's what started this whole mess.

 

[Carl]

It wasn't a Paul thing. Women were not permitted to be priests or preside in the synagogue long before the Christian era. God created man to be the head of women. Period. It is the ARRANGEMENT. It has been from the beginning. "I commend you because in all things you remember me and you are holding fast the traditions just as I handed them on to you. But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God."

Satan is the promoter of women to be the head. That's what started this whole mess.

I'm not questioning headship, nor do I believe women should be priests. I just take issue with Paul's words "I do not permit." To me this appears to be his opinion of whether women can speak in the Synagogue, which applies to the modern day KH. I didn't take it as him saying they can't be priests, as that was well understood at the time. Or at least I would think it was.

 

[Maybelle]

I couldn’t find this image doing a web search, but the QR code takes you to world vision. Interesting the WT would be linked to this organisation

 

[Watchman]

I'm not questioning headship, nor do I believe women should be priests. I just take issue with Paul's words "I do not permit." To me this appears to be his opinion of whether women can speak in the Synagogue, which applies to the modern day KH. I didn't take it as him saying they can't be priests, as that was well understood at the time. Or at least I would think it was.

Paul was the Founder of dozens of congregations. He explained how they were to function. It wasn't merely his authority though. That is why he cited Genesis and Adam and Eve.

 

[Carl]

Paul was the Founder of dozens of congregations. He explained how they were to function. It wasn't merely his authority though. That is why he cited Genesis and Adam and Eve.

I agree with you, I just have a problem with some of Paul's wording the same way I take issue with the WT's use of "brothers" in addressing the congregation... instead of simply saying "brothers & sisters." If women are anointed, and will be co-equals with anointed men (once they're sealed), then obviously Jehovah judges them as equals. As it stands, women are too often treated as second class Christians by some men... not saying anyone here. That said, I'm 100% with you that Satan is trying to upend Jehovah's arrangement by trying to allow women to be priests. I think the headship arrangement is what Paul was talking about here, but I also believe he interjected his opinion when saying women should remain silent (not when he was saying they shouldn't teach or exercise authority over men).

This is a topic that has caused a lot of division in marriages and society. I think the WT handles things correctly, but they aren't following Paul's order for women to remain silent, because I believe it's his opinion. So when he went on to blame Eve for being deceived I also believe he was allowing his opinion to creep in. What I don't want to do is cause division or make people question Jehovah's headship arrangement. I firmly believe most God fearing women would willingly submit to a God fearing man, but in our fallen world most so called Christian men aren't following the Bible, yet they want their wives to be submissive. Men can't have it both ways.

In all of this debate I was never excusing Adam's sin, I just don't believe he ate the fruit knowing he was killing himself. I think he believed Satan's lie and questioned his faith. Therefore, I believe he was deceived by Eve, who was deceived by Satan... and I believe Paul was referring to Eve's deception as the genesis of all our problems. If I'm wrong, I'm fine with that. My opinion doesn't change any doctrines on headship as far as I know, so I don't see how this discussion could stumble anyone either way. If Paul was inspired by Jehovah to give us more knowledge about Adam's intent, I just don't see it. This is yet another topic to discuss once Jesus returns.

I really enjoy these debates, because they stimulate my critical thinking skills. I hope anyone reading this doesn't see me as being argumentative just to argue. I'm open to agreement, but as I said before... I'm not going to change my mind just because everyone else thinks I'm wrong. If someone can show me where Adam knew he was going to die when he ate the fruit, after Eve gave it to him, then I change my mind. I just don't see it.

 

[Seadog]

I agree with you, I just have a problem with some of Paul's wording the same way I take issue with the WT's use of "brothers" in addressing the congregation... instead of simply saying "brothers & sisters." If women are anointed, and will be co-equals with anointed men (once they're sealed), then obviously Jehovah judges them as equals. As it stands, women are too often treated as second class Christians by some men... not saying anyone here. That said, I'm 100% with you that Satan is trying to upend Jehovah's arrangement by trying to allow women to be priests. I think the headship arrangement is what Paul was talking about here, but I also believe he interjected his opinion when saying women should remain silent (not when he was saying they shouldn't teach or exercise authority over men).

This is a topic that has caused a lot of division in marriages and society. I think the WT handles things correctly, but they aren't following Paul's order for women to remain silent, because I believe it's his opinion. So when he went on to blame Eve for being deceived I also believe he was allowing his opinion to creep in. What I don't want to do is cause division or make people question Jehovah's headship arrangement. I firmly believe most God fearing women would willingly submit to a God fearing man, but in our fallen world most so called Christian men aren't following the Bible, yet they want their wives to be submissive. Men can't have it both ways.

In all of this debate I was never excusing Adam's sin, I just don't believe he ate the fruit knowing he was killing himself. I think he believed Satan's lie and questioned his faith. Therefore, I believe he was deceived by Eve, who was deceived by Satan... and I believe Paul was referring to Eve's deception as the genesis of all our problems. If I'm wrong, I'm fine with that. My opinion doesn't change any doctrines on headship as far as I know, so I don't see how this discussion could stumble anyone either way. If Paul was inspired by Jehovah to give us more knowledge about Adam's intent, I just don't see it. This is yet another topic to discuss once Jesus returns.

I really enjoy these debates, because they stimulate my critical thinking skills. I hope anyone reading this doesn't see me as being argumentative just to argue. I'm open to agreement, but as I said before... I'm not going to change my mind just because everyone else thinks I'm wrong. If someone can show me where Adam knew he was going to die when he ate the fruit, after Eve gave it to him, then I change my mind. I just don't see it.

I get where you’re coming from Carl. How about looking at Adam as being someone so enamoured of Eve he was not prepared to live without her and thus effectively suicided himself. Look at all those memes around where the man throws himself in the face of death to protect his woman (and not necessarily reciprocated)

 

[Carl]

I get where you’re coming from Carl. How about looking at Adam as being someone so enamoured of Eve he was not prepared to live without her and thus effectively suicided himself. Look at all those memes around where the man throws himself in the face of death to protect his woman (and not necessarily reciprocated)

I can definitely see that possibility. There's obviously A LOT more to the story. I really hope we get an in depth history lesson someday. I can only imagine the stories that will be told in Paradise, but if Adam & Eve aren't there, then I hope Jesus fills in the details.

 

[Summit]

As I brought out prior, once a person starts questioning the fundamental basic truths of anything, there is nothing off the table regarding conjecture and speculation, it truly is a slippery slope. Carl, you have proven my point in what I am trying to explain to you when you said this.

When Paul said "I do not permit a woman to speak," was this inspired or was he speaking for himself?...I love Paul and so I'm not judging him or claiming he wasn't inspired elsewhere.

Everything in the bible is the inspired word of God. Everything! Now you are questioning whether Paul was inspired because it doesn't fit your narrative that "Adam was not deceived". Essentially you are adjusting the facts to suit your current position, or opinion. Can you not see this? What next?


“16 All Scripture is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight, for disciplining in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be fully competent, completely equipped for every good work.” (2Ti 3:16-17)

You are not being intellectually honest with yourself, or to us for that matter, because you are ignoring the holes within your reasoning. You keep saying you enjoy these debates, but to be honest you are not debating fair because you do not acknowledge the already established truths, but rather change your position as it suits.

You feel for some reason that Adam had to be deceived somehow, for why else would he have done what he did? There are reasons why he ate the fruit other than being deceived. We know this because it says that "Adam was not deceived", therefore you must then consider other reasons than continually readjusting the facts surrounding your belief. Honestly, I don't think I will debate with you anymore simply for the fact that I don't know your position because you keep rewriting it.

 

[KingdomLeast]

... basically it boils down to whether or not Adam ate the fruit knowing he was going to die. If he wasn't deceived as you believe, then he ate it knowing he was going to die. I believe Paul was saying he wasn't deceived into eating it by Satan, but there's no mention of Eve's deception. We can agree to disagree.

It's difficult to say whether or not Adam knew what death was. The Society says, he knew because no doubt animals died and he witnessed it. But the scriptures don't say. Not that I believe animals were made to live forever, then again. Adam and Eve were vegetarians before the fall. In the animal kingdom when animals are dying, they crawl off somewhere to die, so you won't see their carcass. We see them today, because they get hit by cars and are killed by people for sport or cruelty.

That said, I don't think Adam thought it through. Yeah, he was perfect, but he was only a few years old at most, a child in a man's body, still learning, questioning. He's alone, God decides to give him a companion, "it's not good for man to be alone" he says, which is silly, because God knew exactly what He was doing. He was teaching Adam about companionship, loneliness and love. After-all, how else was the earth to be filled?

So Adam has a companion, a wife, a helpmate. She's deceived. Adam remembers what Jehovah told him, "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Now he reasons, "I'll be alone again." He didn't reason, "God will give me another companion", or maybe he did and decided he didn't want another one, he wanted Eve. "If she dies, I'll die with her" and partakes of the fruit. Suicide.

Now based on my study of the scriptures, I don't believe Adam suffered eternal death. Based on my studies on the meaning and philosophy of the word RANSOM, I believe Jesus died for Adam, a life for a life and in redeeming Adam, he redeemed ALL those who came from Adam's loins, the world of mankind. In that way, Jesus, as the scriptures tell us, died "a ransom for all" to be testified in due time.

During the millennial kingdom, everyone who ever died will be resurrected and taught of Jehovah. Free from the wiles and influences of the adversary. They will learn what God did for humanity through the person of Jesus Christ. And during that period, they will grow in grace and knowledge and in due time human perfection. In the end, during the "little season" when Satan is let loose, humanity will be tested as Adam was.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

It's difficult to say whether or not Adam knew what death was. The Society says, he knew because no doubt animals died and he witnessed it. But the scriptures don't say. Not that I believe animals were made to live forever, then again. Adam and Eve were vegetarians before the fall. In the animal kingdom when animals are dying, they crawl off somewhere to die, so you won't see their carcass. We see them today, because they get hit by cars and are killed by people for sport or cruelty.

That said, I don't think Adam thought it through. Yeah, he was perfect, but he was only a few years old at most, a child in a man's body, still learning, questioning. He's alone, God decides to give him a companion, "it's not good for man to be alone" he says, which is silly, because God knew exactly what He was doing. He was teaching Adam about companionship, loneliness and love. After-all, how else was the earth to be filled?

So Adam has a companion, a wife, a helpmate. She's deceived. Adam remembers what Jehovah told him, "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Now he reasons, "I'll be alone again." He didn't reason, "God will give me another companion", or maybe he did and decided he didn't want another one, he wanted Eve. "If she dies, I'll die with her" and partakes of the fruit. Suicide.

Now based on my study of the scriptures, I don't believe Adam suffered eternal death. Based on my studies on the meaning and philosophy of the word RANSOM, I believe Jesus died for Adam, a life for a life and in redeeming Adam, he redeemed ALL those who came from Adam's loins, the world of mankind. In that way, Jesus, as the scriptures tell us, died "a ransom for all" to be testified in due time.

During the millennial kingdom, everyone who ever died will be resurrected and taught of Jehovah. Free from the wiles and influences of the adversary. They will learn what God did for humanity through the person of Jesus Christ. And during that period, they will grow in grace and knowledge and in due time human perfection. In the end, during the "little season" when Satan is let loose, humanity will be tested as Adam was.

Perfection is the issue here. Maturity in perfection may be another. It would not be possible to extrapolate one from the other definitively at this point. However, perfection entails that Adam was created with a full understanding of what was said to him. The standard is set in the bible . “Jehovah cannot lie.” As we see with watchtower, lying can also be by omission, and thus for Jehovah to omit to explain what death meant, would in itself be a lie. Clearly Adam was given a perfect language and in discussion with Jehovah every evening it seems, he would have been aware of all meanings - how else could the creator seek to explain Adam’s existence to him.

“A child in a man’s body” you say? Well, Eve would have had something to say to Jehovah about that - it’s a major, if not primary grouse of women to this very day, let alone for a perfect women (are they not all perfect?!) to be presented with a juvenile boy for a partner. That is not the way perfection. When it comes to marital relationships, the bible is full of advice as to conduct in every regard and perfection requires that every detail is fit for purpose, and that would include mental perception. Judging by Adam’s statement to Jehovah, on seeing Eve, he not only knew what she was, but from where she had been formed. That would indicate a detailed perception and scientific understanding of anatomy.

I have no idea if Adam would be resurrected. Christ though is the second Adam. The second Adam can hardly be usurped in that position by the first Adam, one might reason. Neither could the second Adam be subject to the third Adam in principle, were the first Adam resurrected to that place. It rather usurps the second Adam‘s meaning as the beginning of the new creation. Philosophy, educative as it may be, does not explain scripture, only man’s perception of scripture, and thus cannot therefore be relied upon. The scriptures consistently tell us to rely on what is written within its pages and thus we are limited to, but enlightened by, reasoning upon such as is written, and not that which is not written.

 

[Carl]

Everything in the bible is the inspired word of God. Everything!

1 Corinthians 7:25 "Now concerning virgins, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who had mercy shown him by the Lord to be faithful."

 

[Summit]

1 Corinthians 7:25 "Now concerning virgins, I have no command from the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who had mercy shown him by the Lord to be faithful."

Carl, as I stated, I won't debate you any longer. I don't know what you are trying to present with the scripture, but there is absolutely nothing you can say to make me think there are portions of the bible that are not inspired.

 

[Carl]

It's difficult to say whether or not Adam knew what death was.

I thought of this too.

In the animal kingdom when animals are dying, they crawl off somewhere to die, so you won't see their carcass.

Most people believe animals will die in Paradise, so that would have been the same in Eden. I hope they don't, but who knows for sure. I imagine there are completely different kinds of bacteria that will produce fresh scents rather than the stink they produce now. It probably sounds weird, but farts may smell like roses! I don't imagine seeing much if any rot in Paradise... maybe things will break down in a day?

That said, I don't think Adam thought it through. Yeah, he was perfect, but he was only a few years old at most, a child in a man's body, still learning, questioning. He's alone, God decides to give him a companion, "it's not good for man to be alone" he says, which is silly, because God knew exactly what He was doing. He was teaching Adam about companionship, loneliness and love. After-all, how else was the earth to be filled?

Excellent points! I imagine he was around for long enough to get quite an education from Jehovah. His resurrection status is obviously up to Jehovah, but I hope he cuts him some slack if he really was super naive.

So Adam has a companion, a wife, a helpmate. She's deceived. Adam remembers what Jehovah told him, "in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." Now he reasons, "I'll be alone again." He didn't reason, "God will give me another companion", or maybe he did and decided he didn't want another one, he wanted Eve. "If she dies, I'll die with her" and partakes of the fruit. Suicide.

Eve was also aware of the warning, yet she was deceived. Had she not been, then none of this would have happened. It could be the case that Satan tried to deceive Adam first, and failed. So, that could be what Paul meant when he said Adam wasn't deceived. I just have a hard time believing he saw Eve alive after eating it and still believed he would die. I think it's much more likely he questioned Jehovah's truthfulness, which means he was deceived by Satan via Eve. Satan's goal is to have humanity question Jehovah's word... i.e. test our faith in Jah. Had Adam simply gone to Jehovah and asked, none of this would have happened. It boils down to whether or not Adam trusted in Jehovah. If he trusted in Jehovah then he knew eating the fruit would kill him... so his faith never waived, his desire to be with Eve compelled him to openly disobey Jehovah at the cost of death. This is possible. I believe he questioned his faith and believed the lie Eve was presenting.

Now based on my study of the scriptures, I don't believe Adam suffered eternal death. Based on my studies on the meaning and philosophy of the word RANSOM, I believe Jesus died for Adam, a life for a life and in redeeming Adam, he redeemed ALL those who came from Adam's loins, the world of mankind. In that way, Jesus, as the scriptures tell us, died "a ransom for all" to be testified in due time.

It doesn't matter to me either way... but I'd like to meet them. They probably have some incredible stories.

During the millennial kingdom, everyone who ever died will be resurrected and taught of Jehovah. Free from the wiles and influences of the adversary. They will learn what God did for humanity through the person of Jesus Christ. And during that period, they will grow in grace and knowledge and in due time human perfection. In the end, during the "little season" when Satan is let loose, humanity will be tested as Adam was.

Amen!

 

[MickHewitt]

For look what he does soon as thrown down Rev12:17 "So the dragon became enraged at the woman and went off to wage war with the remaining ones of her offspring, who observe the comandments of God and have the work of bearing witness concerning Jesus!" Our bro's and sis' traduced by Bethel have no witness concerning our Christ because they have been seduced by the apostasy fortetold in 2Thess9: 'Every powerful work and lying sign'...We are the ones in reciept of holy accepted truths! Isa52:11 We, who leaving Jerusalem are carrying the holy utensils of Jehovah's truths! Who has despised the day of small things? Zech4:10: Even now it is springing up, do you not recognise it? Isa43:19! Who else are in receipt of these truths?

Darwin, Huxley's, Bertrand Russel, H.G.Wells etc, etc: these Malthusians have over last 200yrs have so well documented thier designs for the culling of mankind: That's why Russia, China, Saudi's Turks are all hesitant in starting WW3. They know it's the lure of the well documented Anglo/American ideology. They know KOTN want's them to blow up the world and do the job for them and pop up out of their well dug holes in the rocks to reign superior afterwards! If the Islamic countries don't fall for the bait of Gaza....no matter...they will come up with another plan.....If only they would have read thier bible!

 

[MickHewitt]

Darwin, Huxley's, Bertrand Russel, H.G.Wells etc, etc: these Malthusians have over last 200yrs have so well documented thier designs for the culling of mankind: That's why Russia, China, Saudi's Turks are all hesitant in starting WW3. They know it's the lure of the well documented Anglo/American ideology. They know KOTN want's them to blow up the world and do the job for them and pop up out of their well dug holes in the rocks to reign superior afterwards! If the Islamic countries don't fall for the bait of Gaza....no matter...they will come up with another plan.....If only they would have read thier bible!

Yes go on Netanyahu you Ashkenazi British implant, keep bombing the hospitals and those fleeing to nowhere; No matter what you do on London's behalf your nemesis knows not to take the bait. Yes it will result in the genocide of Gaza but London will not give up and perhaps resort to false flagging the sinking of the Gerald Ford but hey BB at least you have obviated your criminal prosecutions you see another day! P.s How's your pacemaker keeping up?

 

[MickHewitt]

Yes go on Netanyahu you Ashkenazi British implant, keep bombing the hospitals and those fleeing to nowhere; No matter what you do on London's behalf your nemesis knows not to take the bait. Yes it will result in the genocide of Gaza but London will not give up and perhaps resort to false flagging the sinking of the Gerald Ford but hey BB at least you have obviated your criminal prosecutions you see another day! P.s How's your pacemaker keeping up?

It's amazing that the pro life lobby in US is silent over the genocide of Palestinian babies.

 

[KingdomLeast]

... perfection entails that Adam was created with a full understanding of what was said to him. The standard is set in the bible . “Jehovah cannot lie.”

You are right, but tell me, where in the account of creation does it say that Adam was created PERFECT? The Bible says they were "good" or "very good" in fact all of creation was "good", "very good", but not PERFECT. Only God is PERFECT. As you say "Jehovah cannot lie."

As we see with watchtower, lying can also be by omission, and thus for Jehovah to omit to explain what death meant, would in itself be a lie. Clearly Adam was given a perfect language and in discussion with Jehovah every evening it seems, he would have been aware of all meanings - how else could the creator seek to explain Adam’s existence to him.

Of course, that's just supposition on your part. Even Jesus wasn't born with full knowledge. "Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and with people." (Luke 2:52)

“A child in a man’s body” you say? Well, Eve would have had something to say to Jehovah about that - it’s a major, if not primary grouse of women to this very day, let alone for a perfect women (are they not all perfect?!) to be presented with a juvenile boy for a partner.

You forget, Eve was created too. She was taught by Adam as the head. Or do you assume as a woman she was created superior to him? LOL

That is not the way perfection. When it comes to marital relationships, the bible is full of advice as to conduct in every regard and perfection requires that every detail is fit for purpose, and that would include mental perception. Judging by Adam’s statement to Jehovah, on seeing Eve, he not only knew what she was, but from where she had been formed. That would indicate a detailed perception and scientific understanding of anatomy.

Why are you comparing apples to oranges? You're comparing man before the fall to man, some 6,000 years later?

I have no idea if Adam would be resurrected. Christ though is the second Adam. The second Adam can hardly be usurped in that position by the first Adam, one might reason. Neither could the second Adam be subject to the third Adam in principle, were the first Adam resurrected to that place. It rather usurps the second Adam‘s meaning as the beginning of the new creation. Philosophy, educative as it may be, does not explain scripture, only man’s perception of scripture, and thus cannot therefore be relied upon. The scriptures consistently tell us to rely on what is written within its pages and thus we are limited to, but enlightened by, reasoning upon such as is written, and not that which is not written.

Who said anything about usurpation?

 

[KingdomLeast]

Eve was also aware of the warning, yet she was deceived. Had she not been, then none of this would have happened.

I'm not so sure about that. Jesus in John 14:28 speaks about "counting the cost". Of course, in this verse it's about finances, but there's more to counting the cost than money. You plan it out. So, Jehovah in creating life, whether it be spirit or flesh, created them free moral agents, knowing full well, that it can be abuse. How will he rectify such an abuse? Through "the lamb that as slain before the foundation of the world." Some believe the "foundation" started with the human family. I believe it was before creation itself. Fortunate for us, the fall happened in the beginning and now after the earth was filled. Can you imagine?

 

[Carl]

I'm not so sure about that. Jesus in John 14:28 speaks about "counting the cost". Of course, in this verse it's about finances, but there's more to counting the cost than money. You plan it out. So, Jehovah in creating life, whether it be spirit or flesh, created them free moral agents, knowing full well, that it can be abuse. How will he rectify such an abuse? Through "the lamb that as slain before the foundation of the world." Some believe the "foundation" started with the human family. I believe it was before creation itself. Fortunate for us, the fall happened in the beginning and now after the earth was filled. Can you imagine?

Revelation 13:8 "And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered."

I'd be careful which version of the Bible you chose here. The KJV makes it sound like Jehovah knew he would sacrifice Jesus before he created Earth, but that's not the case.

 

[Carl]

I enjoy digging into various topics. Sometimes it takes me in a direction that makes others uncomfortable, but in order for me to understand something I need to take it apart and then put it back together. For example... Jehovah knows everything since he resides outside of time, so he knows the past and the future. Some argue He knew Satan was going to rebel, so he created a failsafe in Jesus and the 144,000. I can see why someone would think this way, but a good friend here helped me see that there are certain things Jehovah chooses not to know. So I don't believe Jehovah intentionally created Satan knowing he would rebel.

Jehovah doesn't want robots, so he gave the angels and us free will. Did he know Satan would trick Eve? He may have known it the second he created her, but that wouldn't make him guilty for all the problems afterwards. If someone believes Jehovah intentionally allowed a wicked angel to rule over Eden, then it would seem like he wanted something bad to happen. I used to think maybe Jehovah saw this possibility in Satan, so he was testing him... but that's like a dog owner thinking a Pitbull might bite a child, and then testing his theory by putting one in a daycare. I think Jehovah created the solution, i.e. Jesus and the 144,000, the second Eve sinned... which was the founding of this system.