NWT and World Vision

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
Revelation 13:8 "And all those who dwell on the earth will worship it. From the founding of the world, not one of their names has been written in the scroll of life of the Lamb who was slaughtered."

I'd be careful which version of the Bible you chose here. The KJV makes it sound like Jehovah knew he would sacrifice Jesus before he created Earth, but that's not the case.
This verse is still the same. If Jehovah knew that free will would be abused, then the only way fix the problem is to let mankind rule themselves until utter destruction. Experience EVERY ill possible. This is the consensus of why Jehovah permits all the evil in the world. It's a learning experience for us. That said, the only way to reverse the effects of sin and death would be through a ransom. That was Jesus "the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world."

Let's look at 1 Peter 1:19-20 - "but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without defect or blemish. He was chosen before the foundation of the world but was revealed at the end of the times for you." (Holman)
 

evw

Well-known member
He knew Satan was going to rebel,
That's exactly how the Islam teaches it: God created evil, in the form of Satan, on purpose to test mankind. So it's no surprise that it untimely trickled true till Christianity.
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
You are right, but tell me, where in the account of creation does it say that Adam was created PERFECT? The Bible says they were "good" or "very good" in fact all of creation was "good", "very good", but not PERFECT. Only God is PERFECT. As you say "Jehovah cannot lie."

Of course, that's just supposition on your part. Even Jesus wasn't born with full knowledge. "Jesus grew in wisdom and stature, and in favor with God and with people." (Luke 2:52)

You forget, Eve was created too. She was taught by Adam as the head. Or do you assume as a woman she was created superior to him? LOL


Why are you comparing apples to oranges? You're comparing man before the fall to man, some 6,000 years later?


Who said anything about usurpation?
1/ He must have been perfect first, because sin causes imperfection. It takes a full knowledge of what is right to be able to choose a different course of action as a deliberate choice does it not? Just because the bible does not actually state a case, it does not mean that reasoning will not give us the answer. That is why Jehovah gave us a brain. Likewise, h same principle applies to the growth of faith does it not? As the bible says, “acquire wisdom, and with all that you acquire, acquire understanding. You may also like to consider the meaning of ‘perfection’. The definition is that it fulfils the purpose intended for it. Mankind did. And it was “very good” too. The expression fulfils the necessary understanding of perfection. If you look in your thesaurus you will find a multiplicity of alternatives to the word, perfection.

2/ Jesus had to be born as man. As we know, Jehovah had completed His creation and had started His rest. He would not contradict himself by breaking His own sabbath. Besides which, His solution to the challenge was to prove that man could choose the right pathway. Of course Jesus grew in wisdom. Childhood is innocent in the truest form of the word. When challenges come with understanding, then cometh the choice - just as it did with Adam. Jesus was also well aware of who his father was by the time he reached twelve years old and probably well before that. His life was transferred, not conceived again. You are confusing life with the growth or production of a body. Fo Jesus though, growing in wisdom naturally implies wisdom was already there, does it not? Thus it is reasonable to assume that Jesus was well aware of his natural place in things well before the age of twelve. Likewise, spirit entities do not have a body of flesh do they? So what is their state of awareness when they are created? We don’t know, but application of understanding might give us a clue. Where were Adam‘s parents to feed him upon creation if he was a child as you say? When did he become aware? Why did Jehovah point out what he could not touch, if he could not understand the principles of ownership? We may assume the same of Eve. If you want an example of being on the ball as soon as you are born, then simply look to the animal kingdom. However, the most significant issue that proves awareness of the situation for both Adam and Eve, is that Satan knew the choice was theirs. You cannot hold a child responsible for is actions unless you can prove it’s awareness to a given situation. (Gillick law).
 

evw

Well-known member
BTW, does anyone know where or if it says in the Bible that all angels should bow down to Adam? My Muslim 'study' sent me something like this from the Quran:
'And (remember) when We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam. They prostrated except Iblis (is the Arabic name for Satan). He said, “Shall I kneel before one whom You created from clay?
But I think there are a few situations (Bible texts) combined together, which happens a lot in the Quran. And then I think about:
Philippians 2 v 10: 'so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground.' with 1 Corinthians 15 v 45 - 'So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirits.'
Someone an idea, please???
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
BTW, does anyone know where or if it says in the Bible that all angels should bow down to Adam? My Muslim 'study' sent me something like this from the Quran:
'And (remember) when We said to the angels: Prostrate to Adam. They prostrated except Iblis (is the Arabic name for Satan). He said, “Shall I kneel before one whom You created from clay?
But I think there are a few situations (Bible texts) combined together, which happens a lot in the Quran. And then I think about:
Philippians 2 v 10: 'so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend—of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground.' with 1 Corinthians 15 v 45 - 'So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living person.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirits.'
Someone an idea, please???
From my point of view, the matter is just as you suggest in that the Quran was written by the prophet Mohamed, I am given to understand. As it reflects the bible in so many ways, there is an example where by one could could extrapolate the meanings that your bible study refers to, in that the bible records that the ”heavens applauded “ at the creation that Jehovah made - I can’t find the scripture though. Thus if one adds enough twists and turns in ‘translation’ one could reasonably suggest the idea that such a celebration was “worship” and that Satan would have no part in it.

However, it may be more to your study’s benefit to ask him why it is that Jehovah would ask His angels to bow down to His creation and let him explain it. Muslims are very hot on praising God exclusively, and in women observing their place etc, that this quotation must surely present a problem for them in consistency of that very thought. It would be more educative for him to explain it to you, than for you to argue a point of faith that he takes without question. He should question it. Let him do the work. Undoubtedly, he will open up points if discussion. Look how effective it was when Jesus said to his followers “eat of my flesh and drink of my blood….”. It rather sorts people out.
 

Carl

Well-known member
That's exactly how the Islam teaches it: God created evil, in the form of Satan, on purpose to test mankind. So it's no surprise that it untimely trickled true till Christianity.
This could be part of Satan's deception. I learned that some Jews believe Jehovah and Satan are working together to test mankind. When this topic was discussed on another thread, I believe Robert pointed out that if this was the case, it would make Jehovah evil... which contradicts the Bible. It may come as a surprise to some reading this thread, but I do believe everything in the Bible is inspired, EXCEPT when the author explicitly says it's their opinion. That said, the Bible is left open to each person's personal Bible trained conscience to understand and test their faith. I think Jesus spoke in parables for the same reason. The problem is that everyone has a unique personality and view on the world, mixed with their sinful flesh... which results in mistranslations, misinterpretations, 1,000s of denominations, cults and sects.

I've been through the Bible 27 times and each time I get more knowledge and more unsure about my own conjecture. I know the major truths, but if I was to rely on my own understanding I'd be lost... hence why I'm still here. My conjecture aligns 90% with Robert's teachings. My son loves the CC because of the structure and "tradition." PIMI JWs love the WT for the same reasons. I need structure in my life, but I can't follow lies or believe conjecture that can't be proven... so I'm here. I know one thing 100%... Jehovah and Satan aren't working together!
 

BARNABY THE DOG.

Well-known member
Just a heads up ... Mohammed is no "prophet".
I am well aware that Mohammed is not considered a prophet by many people. However, when speaking of another person‘s religion I do not offer an unnecessary provocation and insult another’s belief, but would first offer discussion, especially on another’s person’s site, so as not to expose them to discriminatory sanctions by providers. Also, rather that act as you appear to, by speaking before thinking, in this case the questioner may well be reading this site, therefore I took care not to offend a possibly interested person. Also, Adam was not a child, he was a grown man. Jehovah gave him a wife, not a mother. I’m not going to discuss the issue with you if you are unable to think rationally.
 

Carl

Well-known member
when speaking of another person‘s religion I do not offer an unnecessary provocation and insult another’s belief
I agree. We should defend our beliefs while respecting someone else's. Ridicule, or the arrogant I'm right, you're wrong attitude, doesn't open hearts and minds to the Truth... it often does the opposite. Some will cling to their false beliefs up until the last second. We need to be in their lives in order to help them transition as they wake up... we won't be in their lives if we push them away.
 
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