Saturday, June 15 2024 Satan, the one misleading the world

No. That ain't it.

That is how the Scriptures read. Do you not agree with what they state?

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation+ and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.

26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.

WW3/pangs of distress leads to giving power to the 8th king for 42-month GT.
After the 42 months the 'sign' is seen and then Jesus comes/presence.


Are you willing to show what you believe is it if you think that is not it?

Show using Scriptures!
 
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That is how the Scriptures read. Do you not agree with what they state?

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.

9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation+ and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name.

24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken. 26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.


Are you willing to show what you believe is it if you think that is not it?

Show using Scriptures!
There are several hundred articles on e-watchman. Don't pretend like I don't use the Scriptures.
 
There are several hundred articles on e-watchman. Don't pretend like I don't use the Scriptures.
So, you are saying that if any want to know your view/understanding they are to go read your book?

You will not on a forum where people ask questions and interact with each other, you will not list Scriptures to show what you think is the correct view?
 
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So, you are saying that if any what to know your view/understanding they are to go read your book?

You will not on a forum where people ask questions and interact with each other, you will not list Scriptures to show what you think is the correct view?
You did not ask a question. You presumed to make a statement of fact. Then you pretended that I had not already explained it.
 
You did not ask a question. You presumed to make a statement of fact. Then you pretended that I had not already explained it.
I did ask a question...

Are you willing to show what you believe is it if you think that is not it?

I asked that because you said what I said to wth was not it.

What is so wrong with asking you do give an order to events using the Scriptures?

I did that with wth based on what it seems the Scriptures state. I hyperlinked to everything I said. I just don't ramble off my view without using the Scriptures.

Why can't you do the same now here for me? Will you?
 
I did ask a question...



I asked that because you said what I said to wth was not it.

What is so wrong with asking you do give an order to events using the Scriptures?

I did that with wth based on what it seems the Scriptures state. I hyperlinked to everything I said. I just don't ramble off my view without using the Scriptures.

Why can't you do the same now here for me? Will you?
I have shown what I believe. If you haven't gotten the sense of it that is on you, not me.
 
I have reservations about some of JW's teachings. but also reservations with regard to New teachers. I don't reject everything, I can remember Watchman questioning Queen Zenobia if she fit into the prophecy of Daniel (North South), I too was skeptical JG has come back to it, fortunately. There are plenty of other things they are right about, time will tell l het leren
 
Understood.
Each of us learns from discussion upon the bible. It is not down to one person, though teachers are always welcome in my opinion. Who else are we to learn from? If Jehovah came to instruct us, where would be the requirement for faith? That Jesus appeared as a man is significant in this regard. Thus it is perfectly justified to challenge for scriptures to be cited to support one’s opinion, but are we truly expected to accept basing our faith on what another says? With or without scripture? Hardly. The responsibility lies with us to determine the thematic content of truth. There is undoubtably, a line drawn through it for us to follow.

I cannot speak for others, as faith is a personal item, but if there is one passage in the bible that hits it on the head, it is where Jesus says “they will know my voice”. That one singular statement says so much. 1. It is ourselves that hear it. 2. No man can speak it. 3. It is recognised from within. 4. It inspires faith. 5. It satisfies the spirit within. 6. It reassures. 7. It rings true. We cannot doubt it.

So where does this knowledge of the voice come from? If we examine ourselves, the yearning comes from within. Our life experience - certainly for me - teaches us to trust no one without applying the most stringent caution. Even then! Yet within us all - and the reason why we gather together, is that there is something else, as the French say a “je nais se quois”, which translates as “I do not know what…”, more accurately translated as “A certain something…”, in this case Jesus’ “my voice”, that he spoke of. Define what a “voice” is, and we see how it applies so well to the “narrow path” we must find. Truly, it defies description, but that is the point of it. We know it, because it is of the Spirit. So what is the Spirit?

The Spirit is the essence of our creation. What was within Adam in his coming to consciousness. It is in all life. It is in all laws that hold creation as a stable force. Those “laws” apply to us, alone. The angelic beings exist within their “laws” of experience under the creator of those laws, and whom is not bound by them at all.

For us we live within creation. If we study creation we see the reason for its existence. Simply put, it is for our existence and for this very reason, we recognise it, it’s boundaries, it’s benefits, is usage (particularly) and significantly, it’s beauty in perfection. It is these boundaries that we recognise within that sphere of existence. Its intrinsic righteousness, its balance, the purity of the love that inspires it and lends it, it’s “raison d’être” its “reason for being “.

Thus it is, that we ask not of the speaker, his reasoning, but as did the Boreans, seek its truth ourselves. Robert “prompts” we all do in our own way. Whether he uses scripture or not, it is irrelevant because it is of our duty to make it our own. No one can teach us “the voice “, we hear it, see it, sense it are inspired by it and make it our own of own volition. But it is there for us in all things. The “stones” that would cry out to us if all else were silent, appeal to the same point, do they not? The creation that is us. The voice with in us. These are the “stones”, our inner sense of being, if, if, listen to them. Jehovah is not the bible but of the bible. The bible is not the destination. Jehovah is and that pathway is through Christ. The bible disintegrates as a record, explanation and warning come the tribulation and we stand alone. It’s imperative is to point out that very fact is it not? It is what we ourselves make of its content, and in how that content applies to us, gives us our faith.

I support Robert’s ethos in teaching because I draw from his discussions, and of those that respond to him, all of you out there, for this very reason in that it provokes in me, a glimpse of meaning into our existence and that of the meaning of the creator, Jehovah, in His sharing of His own love , and His joy in sharing this with others to delight in the sense of living. Scripture feeds us these insights into that love, and it cannot be given us by another. We must reason on it and understand for ourselves and then we too can give it away for others to dwell on. The value of Robert’s discussion is the provocation they engender to look for ourselves to see if it’s true. We decide what is speculative - as it must be on occasion - all insight is - we do not know know for sure and prophesy is not known until it passes, until it is accomplished. But there is scripture enough in all of them. The “voice” is what we look for and that comes from within. It must do.
 
Thus it is, that we ask not of the speaker, his reasoning, but as did the Boreans, seek its truth ourselves.
[11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.]

[5 Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?”]

You got the Borean part right in that we are to seek using the Scriptures to see what is being said is true, but you are wrong about not asking the one that is doing the saying that we should not question them.

I gave a reply to someone based on what I thought they were asking. Then someone replied to me saying that what I said 'ain't it', meaning that I am incorrect in what I said. So, then I asked this someone, if they think that what I said is not correct, then can they tell me what they believe is correct.

I feel that question is warranted there.

But then you have here Bible Questions and in there you will find When is the hour of test coming upon the world?

Do you feel it would be okay to ask the writer of that some questions based on what they said there and to also compare what is said there with the Bible? I do! But I also feel that if the writer does not want to answer me for whatever reason, then they don't have to.:)

In there is says:

Will the outbreak of WW3 begin the test that Jesus said will come upon the entire inhabited earth? No. However, as Jesus noted, it will be “the beginning pangs of distress.” Then, a great tribulation, unlike anything that has ever occurred before or will ever occur again, will come upon the entire inhabited earth. Does Revelation foretell this global disaster in symbolism? Yes, it does. The tribulation is what is betokened by the opening of the sixth seal...How can we determine that the opening of the sixth seal represents the great tribulation? For the reason that Jesus used the very same apocalyptic symbolism when he said the following: “Immediately after the tribulation of those days, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” — Matthew 24:29

From that in my trying to understand the order of events he said there, I gather:

1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/Sun,Moon,Stars

Then there is this:

It is the post-tribulation period when the hour of test will begin. The hour of the test will coincide with the one-hour reign of the eighth king.

Adding that shows:

1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/Sun,Moon,Stars (Whatever that entails IDK if is not WW3 or the 8th king rule.)
3. HOT/42 months of 8th king

Now trying to use the Scriptures with what was said:

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.

My question is, where is this placed into the events above:

26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity. ❓

Also, what tribulation are they receiving relief from
red, yellow, or green:

7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you. ❓

And is it
the Sun,Moon,Star said GT above that the GC come out of? (Revelation 7:9,13,14) ❓

____________________________________________



Here is the way I order it in which I was told I am wrong.


1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/HOT/42 months of 8th king
3. Sun,Moon,Stars
4. Jesus comes

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name.13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. <cf.> 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.


7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.

GC come out of 42 months GT of 8th king. (Revelation 7:9,13,14)
 
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[11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.]

[5 Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?”]

You got the Borean part right in that we are to seek using the Scriptures to see what is being said is true, but you are wrong about not asking the one that is doing the saying that we should not question them.

I gave a reply to someone based on what I thought they were asking. Then someone replied to me saying that what I said 'ain't it', meaning that I am incorrect in what I said. So, then I asked this someone, if they think that what I say is not correct, then can they tell me what they believe is correct.

I feel that question is warranted there.

But then you have here Bible Questions and in there you will find When is the hour of test coming upon the world?

Do you think it would be okay to ask the writer of that some questions based on what they said there and to also compare what is said there with the Bible? I do! But I also feel is the writer does not want to answer me for whatever reason, then they don't have to.

In there is says:



From that in my trying to understand the order of events he said here, I gather:

1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/Sun,Moon,Stars

Then there is this:



Adding that shows:

1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/Sun,Moon,Stars
3. HOT/42 months of 8th king

Now trying to use the Scriptures with what was said:

8 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in one place after another; there will also be food shortages. These are a beginning of pangs of distress.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.

My question is, where is this placed into the events above:

26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity. ❓

Also, what tribulation are they receiving relief from
red, yellow, or green:

7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you. ❓
____________________________________________

Here is the way I order it in which I was told I am wrong.


1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/HOT/42 months of 8th king
3. Sun,Moon,Stars
4. Jesus comes

8 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom; there will be earthquakes in one place after another; there will also be food shortages. These are a beginning of pangs of distress.
5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.



7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.
What's with the red, yellow and green? Are you celebrating Pride Month or something?
 
What's with the red, yellow and green? Are you celebrating Pride Month or something?
No, I do it for contrast, just like many here use the underline and bold.
Since the text color is there too, I use it.

A reply to the three❓ above in #35 would be greatly appreciated. :)
 
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and prophesy is not known until it passes,
That contradicts Jehovah's promise at Isa 42:9 B "See the first things have come to pass now I am declaring new things. Before they spring up. I tell you about them" He has certainly informed us of what is about to spring up here at the Watchman's site.....Egypt turning in on it's self Isa 19.........just one example? Another is the downfall of the daughter of Jerusalem which we see disintegrating before us as we speak.?
 
That contradicts Jehovah's promise at Isa 42:9 B "See the first things have come to pass now I am declaring new things. Before they spring up. I tell you about them" He has certainly informed us of what is about to spring up here at the Watchman's site.....Egypt turning in on it's self Isa 19.........just one example? Another is the downfall of the daughter of Jerusalem which we see disintegrating before us as we speak.?
Well yes of course Mick. Perhaps I should have said that we of course see the development of the prophesies - that is the point of them, to act as a warning. We have the trees coming into fruit for instance, but not all at once. We have the sun going dark, “great signs” etc, but not the detail, or indeed, the retrospect. Retrospect is key, is it not in determining the 1914 lie, though some may say that had watchtower kept to the truth of the matter, I.e., they did not know, it may no have happened that way. But it did. Hence, perhaps I should have been more clear in stipulating that we do not know the detail. Faith is an intrinsic part of prophesy. Take for instance the issue of atomic warfare and the supposition that we are right on the edge, counting months? We know we are to have “surgery” but we do not know if we will survive it, or exactly when it’s coming. That was simply the point. We know watchtower is going south, but how? And does it really concern us. It certainly affects us, but should we be concerned? These are all issues, but I will try harder for clarity. One day I may talk sense. Who knows? 🤣
 
[11 Now these were more noble-minded than those in Thes·sa·lo·niʹca, for they accepted the word with the greatest eagerness of mind, carefully examining the Scriptures daily to see whether these things were so.]

[5 Later, when some were speaking about the temple, how it was adorned with fine stones and dedicated things, 6 he said: “As for these things that you now see, the days will come when not a stone will be left upon a stone and not be thrown down.” 7 Then they questioned him, saying: “Teacher, when will these things actually be, and what will be the sign when these things are to occur?”]

You got the Borean part right in that we are to seek using the Scriptures to see what is being said is true, but you are wrong about not asking the one that is doing the saying that we should not question them.

I gave a reply to someone based on what I thought they were asking. Then someone replied to me saying that what I said 'ain't it', meaning that I am incorrect in what I said. So, then I asked this someone, if they think that what I said is not correct, then can they tell me what they believe is correct.

I feel that question is warranted there.

But then you have here Bible Questions and in there you will find When is the hour of test coming upon the world?

Do you feel it would be okay to ask the writer of that some questions based on what they said there and to also compare what is said there with the Bible? I do! But I also feel that if the writer does not want to answer me for whatever reason, then they don't have to.:)

In there is says:



From that in my trying to understand the order of events he said there, I gather:

1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/Sun,Moon,Stars

Then there is this:



Adding that shows:

1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/Sun,Moon,Stars (Whatever that entails IDK if is not WW3 or the 8th king rule.)
3. HOT/42 months of 8th king

Now trying to use the Scriptures with what was said:

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.

My question is, where is this placed into the events above:

26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity. ❓

Also, what tribulation are they receiving relief from
red, yellow, or green:

7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you. ❓

And is it
the Sun,Moon,Star said GT above that the GC come out of? (Revelation 7:9,13,14) ❓

____________________________________________



Here is the way I order it in which I was told I am wrong.


1. WW3/pangs of distress
2. great tribulation/HOT/42 months of 8th king
3. Sun,Moon,Stars
4. Jesus comes

7 “For nation will rise against nation and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be food shortages and earthquakes in one place after another. 8 All these things are a beginning of pangs of distress.
9 “Then people will hand you over to tribulation and will kill you, and you will be hated by all the nations on account of my name.13 But the one who has endured to the end will be saved. <cf.> 5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.
24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, 25 and the stars will be falling out of heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens will be shaken.
26 And then they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then he will send out the angels and will gather his chosen ones together from the four winds, from earth’s extremity to heaven’s extremity.


7 But you who suffer tribulation will be given relief along with us at the revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels 8 in a flaming fire, as he brings vengeance on those who do not know God and those who do not obey the good news about our Lord Jesus. 9 These very ones will undergo the judicial punishment of everlasting destruction from before the Lord and from the glory of his strength, 10 at the time when he comes to be glorified in connection with his holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder among all those who exercised faith, because the witness we gave met with faith among you.

GC come out of 42 months GT of 8th king. (Revelation 7:9,13,14)
Your first point Frank is exactly so. We accept the Word with great eagerness - but what did they do? Checked it for themselves. I do likewise, and I thought I had reiterated that very point. We, or at least I do, value what is said, and I will spend some time, often quite a long time evaluating the issue, but in the end, it’s down to me what I believe. In the end analysis, if I do not understand and there is no one to explain, I just go with the scripture as it is written. But that does not necessarily render “understanding” does it - even if it gives rise to a consensus of opinion amongst the many. But I do not expect anyone to know for certain. If we had to be certain, then how does faith and acceptance, tolerance and patience, unity and divergence play a part? We are expected to understand the Spirit personally. As Jesus said to the adulterous woman, “go - and sin no more.” She had to develop her values. That there is unity in our belief, is miraculous in itself because in application it displays how broad the attributes of the spirit in their reach actually are. That does not mean that there is laxity or differing levels of standards in perfection.
 
Well yes of course Mick. Perhaps I should have said that we of course see the development of the prophesies - that is the point of them, to act as a warning. We have the trees coming into fruit for instance, but not all at once. We have the sun going dark, “great signs” etc, but not the detail, or indeed, the retrospect. Retrospect is key, is it not in determining the 1914 lie, though some may say that had watchtower kept to the truth of the matter, I.e., they did not know, it may no have happened that way. But it did. Hence, perhaps I should have been more clear in stipulating that we do not know the detail. Faith is an intrinsic part of prophesy. Take for instance the issue of atomic warfare and the supposition that we are right on the edge, counting months? We know we are to have “surgery” but we do not know if we will survive it, or exactly when it’s coming. That was simply the point. We know watchtower is going south, but how? And does it really concern us. It certainly affects us, but should we be concerned? These are all issues, but I will try harder for clarity. One day I may talk sense. Who knows? 🤣
Thanks for your humble refrain: Forgive my condescension but you know my zealousness for the integrity of this site; in harmony with 2Cor10:5 "For we are overturning reasonings and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God and we are bringing every thought into captivity to make it obedient to the Christ!" Truth no longer resides at Bethel but hopefully it has found sanctuary here.
 
Possibly future fullfillment of Biblical events will proceed in this sequence?

1) Good news preached FIRST Mark 13:10 (Mark alone uses the word "first) 🗝

2) Great persecution (hour of test) BEFORE all these things Luke 21:12 🗝

3) Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc = Great Tribulation Matthew 24:7 🗝 Horseman of apocolypse ride. Revelation 6. The Great Crowd come out of the Great Tribulation and are revealed during this time because they come to assist Christ's brothers during their hour of test during the Great Tribulation.

4) Peace and Security announcement 1 Thess 5:2-11 (Paul)

5) 42 months, 3.5 years, when the 2 Witnesses preach. God grants authority for his 2 witnesses to prophesy for 1260 days, 42 months, a time, times and half a time 3.5 years.. Sackcloth indicates mourning and distress, and / or repentance. This seems to be after the discipline and purifying of the persecution and Great Tribulation trials.
Revelation 11:3-6; Zechariah 4:2-14

6) Beast, the final worldly government at that time, 8th king, makes war on all God's servants (represented by the 2 witnesses) who are proclaiming God's message of final judgment, which torments them, like a stinging to them

7) Two Witnesses killed, and the world watches them die.

8)The slain witnesses, God's servants, the anointed, are resurrected, ascend to heaven in a cloud, as did Jesus, victorious. Earthquake occurs, as a great earthquake occured at Jesus death.

9) 144,000 resurrected ones are now all in heaven with Jesus

10) Final judgement on those who killed the 2 witnesses, recompense falls on those who harm the two witnesses, (the body of Christ) = Armegeddon, war of the great day of God the almighty, and Christ Jesus & 144,000 against the opposing kings of the earth

(Item #3 was edited to add info about Great Crowd in response to Frank's question below at post #45)
 
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In the end analysis, if I do not understand and there is no one to explain, I just go with the scripture as it is written.
We should always go with what the Scriptures say and having no one to explain, does not apply here. If someone post/says something here, it's because they are here and that means they are available to explain what they said/mean.
 
Each of us learns from discussion upon the bible. It is not down to one person, though teachers are always welcome in my opinion. Who else are we to learn from? If Jehovah came to instruct us, where would be the requirement for faith? That Jesus appeared as a man is significant in this regard. Thus it is perfectly justified to challenge for scriptures to be cited to support one’s opinion, but are we truly expected to accept basing our faith on what another says? With or without scripture? Hardly. The responsibility lies with us to determine the thematic content of truth. There is undoubtably, a line drawn through it for us to follow.

I cannot speak for others, as faith is a personal item, but if there is one passage in the bible that hits it on the head, it is where Jesus says “they will know my voice”. That one singular statement says so much. 1. It is ourselves that hear it. 2. No man can speak it. 3. It is recognised from within. 4. It inspires faith. 5. It satisfies the spirit within. 6. It reassures. 7. It rings true. We cannot doubt it.

So where does this knowledge of the voice come from? If we examine ourselves, the yearning comes from within. Our life experience - certainly for me - teaches us to trust no one without applying the most stringent caution. Even then! Yet within us all - and the reason why we gather together, is that there is something else, as the French say a “je nais se quois”, which translates as “I do not know what…”, more accurately translated as “A certain something…”, in this case Jesus’ “my voice”, that he spoke of. Define what a “voice” is, and we see how it applies so well to the “narrow path” we must find. Truly, it defies description, but that is the point of it. We know it, because it is of the Spirit. So what is the Spirit?

The Spirit is the essence of our creation. What was within Adam in his coming to consciousness. It is in all life. It is in all laws that hold creation as a stable force. Those “laws” apply to us, alone. The angelic beings exist within their “laws” of experience under the creator of those laws, and whom is not bound by them at all.

For us we live within creation. If we study creation we see the reason for its existence. Simply put, it is for our existence and for this very reason, we recognise it, it’s boundaries, it’s benefits, is usage (particularly) and significantly, it’s beauty in perfection. It is these boundaries that we recognise within that sphere of existence. Its intrinsic righteousness, its balance, the purity of the love that inspires it and lends it, it’s “raison d’être” its “reason for being “.

Thus it is, that we ask not of the speaker, his reasoning, but as did the Boreans, seek its truth ourselves. Robert “prompts” we all do in our own way. Whether he uses scripture or not, it is irrelevant because it is of our duty to make it our own. No one can teach us “the voice “, we hear it, see it, sense it are inspired by it and make it our own of own volition. But it is there for us in all things. The “stones” that would cry out to us if all else were silent, appeal to the same point, do they not? The creation that is us. The voice with in us. These are the “stones”, our inner sense of being, if, if, listen to them. Jehovah is not the bible but of the bible. The bible is not the destination. Jehovah is and that pathway is through Christ. The bible disintegrates as a record, explanation and warning come the tribulation and we stand alone. It’s imperative is to point out that very fact is it not? It is what we ourselves make of its content, and in how that content applies to us, gives us our faith.

I support Robert’s ethos in teaching because I draw from his discussions, and of those that respond to him, all of you out there, for this very reason in that it provokes in me, a glimpse of meaning into our existence and that of the meaning of the creator, Jehovah, in His sharing of His own love , and His joy in sharing this with others to delight in the sense of living. Scripture feeds us these insights into that love, and it cannot be given us by another. We must reason on it and understand for ourselves and then we too can give it away for others to dwell on. The value of Robert’s discussion is the provocation they engender to look for ourselves to see if it’s true. We decide what is speculative - as it must be on occasion - all insight is - we do not know know for sure and prophesy is not known until it passes, until it is accomplished. But there is scripture enough in all of them. The “voice” is what we look for and that comes from within. It must do.

Some scriptures to go along with your thoughts.

Hebrews11:

11 Faith+ is the assured expectation* of things hoped+ for, the evident demonstration* of realities* though not beheld.+6 Moreover, without faith+ it is impossible to please [him] well,+ for he that approaches God must believe that he is+ and that he becomes the rewarder*+ of those earnestly seeking him.

Psalm 25:8

ט [Tehth] 8 Good and upright is Jehovah. a That is why he instructs sinners in the way.b

Isaiah30:​

21 And your own ears will hear a word behind you saying: “This is the way.+ Walk in it, YOU people,” in case YOU people should go to the right or in case YOU should go to the left. 1-33Read more> +https://www.jw.org/en/library/bible/bi12/books/isaiah/30/

Deuteronomy 5:32

32 And YOU people must take care to do just as Jehovah YOUR God has commanded YOU.a YOU must not turn to the right or to the left.b

Joshua 1:7

7 “Only be courageous and very strong to take care to do according to all the law that Moses my servant commanded you.a Do not turn aside from it to the right or to the left,b in order that you may act wisely everywhere you go.c

Proverbs 4:27

27 Do not incline to the right hand or to the left.a Remove your foot from what is bad.b
 
3) Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc = Great Tribulation Matthew 24:7 🗝 Horseman of apocolypse ride. Revelation 6
Here is the first issue I see with what you put.

You have the said GT occurring at #3.

So, question for you. It is clearly stated the GC come out from the GT. From what event/point do you think the GC is formed and come out from?

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands. 13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+
 
Here is the first issue I see with what you put.

You have the said GT occurring at #3.

So, question for you. It is clearly stated the GC come out from the GT. From what event/point do you think the GC is formed and come out from?

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands. 13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+
The Great Crowd come out of, or survive, the Great Tribulation, (so this event will follow # 3, or occurs after the GT), along with the Chosen Ones, for whom the Great Tribulation is cut short, otherwise no flesh would be saved. Also, during the Great Tribulation, which is the time of great testing of the Chosen Ones, those who come to the aid of the Chosen Ones show themselves to be sheeplike and to be of the Great Crowd who then come out of, survive, and are revealed, or appear, emerge, after the Great Tribulation. Also, the Chosen Ones will have been tested refined and cleansed during thd Great Tribulation, their hour of test. These Chosen Ones, now tested, refined, humbled, and therfore in "sackcloth" are ready to take up their assignment as the "two witnesses" during the 42 month rule of the 8th king. At this time, they will deliver a stinging judgment message, but they will be protected by God until their witness work is complete. Then the 8th king will turn on them, killing them. After their martyrdom, they are resurrected to heaven, the heavenly class is completed and they with Christ make war on God's and their enemies, who also war with them. This is the situation called Armegeddon.

In response to your question, I edited item #3 to clarify as follows:

3) Nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, famines, pestilences, earthquakes, etc = Great Tribulation Matthew 24:7 🗝 Horseman of apocolypse ride. Revelation 6. The Great Crowd come out of the Great Tribulation and are revealed during this time because they come to assist Christ's brothers during their hour of test during the Great Tribulation.
 
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The Great Crowd come out of, or survive, the Great Tribulation, (so following 3), along with the Chosen Ones, for whom the Great Tribulation is cut short, otherwise no flesh would be saved. Also, during the Great Tribulation, which is the time of great testing of the Chosen Ones, those who come to the aid of the Chosen Ones show themselves to be sheeplike and to be of the Great Crowd who then come out of, survive, and are revealed, or appear, emerge, after the Great Tribulation.
You claim though that the GT is WW3/4 horsemen. 6 billion people come out of that. Do you think all of them make up the GC that God will spread his tent over? How is that time a testing for the chosen any more or less than the rest of the people in the world at that time? How is it said that the GC wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb during that time?
 
You claim though that the GT is WW3/4 horsemen. 6 billion people come out of that. Do you think all of them make up the GC that God will spread his tent over? How is that time a testing for the chosen any more or less than the rest of the people in the world at that time? How is it said that the GC wash their robes in the blood of the Lamb during that time?
No, I don't think all of the survivors will be of the Great Crowd. I believe that the persecution of the Chosen Ones will occur during the Great Tribulation. Jesus said the sheep come to the aid of the brothers of Christ while they are in prison. So, the Great Persecution that Luke speaks of, I believe, begins to occur before the Great Tribulation, or begins at the beginning of it, before all of the other events, nation against nation, kingdom against kingdom, pestilence, food shortages, earthquakes, etc.

I'm not dogmatic about this. I could be wrong about some things. It just makes sense to me that this could be the ordering of events, and I've given a possible sequence.. But, I believe the Bible and Luke's prophecy at Luke 21:12. The great persecution comes first, before the other occurances.
 
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Also, the Chosen Ones will have been tested refined and cleansed during thd Great Tribulation, their hour of test.
The hour of test/hour of judgment comes upon the whole world. The test is to choose to worship Jehovah and refuse the mark or to worship Satan and his 8th king by taking the mark. (The real future apostasy to come.) All refusing the 8th king are captives or being killed during the 42 months of the 8th king. Those that worship Jehovah and refuse the mark makeup the GC and some of those will rule with Jesus. Those that take the mark will be cutoff/receive his wrath.

10 ... the hour of test, which is to come upon the entire inhabited earth, to put to the test those dwelling on the earth.

5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months. 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them, and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword, he must be killed with the sword. This is where it calls for endurance and faith on the part of the holy ones.

6 And I saw another angel flying in midheaven, and he had everlasting good news to declare to those who dwell on the earth, to every nation and tribe and tongue and people. 7 He was saying in a loud voice: “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment by him has arrived, so worship the One who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and the springs of water. 9 Another angel, a third, followed them, saying in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the wild beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he will also drink of the wine of the anger of God that is poured out undiluted into the cup of His wrath, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the sight of the holy angels and in the sight of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever, and day and night they have no rest, those who worship the wild beast and its image and whoever receives the mark of its name. 12 Here is where it calls for endurance on the part of the holy ones, those who keep the commandments of God and hold fast to the faith of Jesus.”

9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes; and there were palm branches in their hands. 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb.”13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes, who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne will spread his tent over them. 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat, 17 because the Lamb, who is in the midst of the throne, will shepherd them and will guide them to springs of waters of life. And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”

4 And I saw thrones, and those who sat on them were given authority to judge. Yes, I saw the souls of those executed for the witness they gave about Jesus and for speaking about God, and those who had not worshipped the wild beast or its image and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand. And they came to life and ruled as kings with the Christ for 1,000 years.
 
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And, I think possibly, as the Egyptians witnessed God's power, people will know, or many will realize, that God cut short the tribulation, saving makind from extinction. I think it may be possible as a vast mixed company joined the Israelites, some who see the power of God, may join the Great Crowd, but I'm basing that on the shadow of the Exodus from Egypt. Others will take the mark of the beast and follow Satan. Christ will be ruling in the midst of his enemies and the sheep and goats will be separated at that point, is what I think.
 
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