Saturday, June 27 - It's wrong

Watchman

Watchman

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Go on bringing them up in the discipline and admonition of Jehovah.—Eph. 6:4.

What about baptized minors—those under 18 years of age—who engage in serious wrongdoing? The body of elders will arrange for two elders to meet with the minor and his Christian parents. The elders will find out what steps the parents have already taken to help their child come to repentance. If the minor has a good attitude and the parents are reaching him, the two elders might decide that it is not necessary to take the matter any further. After all, it is the parents’ God-given responsibility to provide loving correction to their children. (Deut. 6:6, 7; Prov. 6:20; 22:6; Eph. 6:2-4) The elders will thereafter occasionally check with the parents to make sure that the minor is getting the help he needs. However, what if a baptized minor unrepentantly persists in a wrong course? In that case, a committee of elders will meet with him along with his Christian parents. w24.08 24 ¶18
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This should not even be an issue. Baptizing children is wrong. Period. There is no scriptural support for such a thing.
 
Baptism for minors is certainly wrong, but in the case of watchtower it also holds the potential for usurping the headship of the family order. What is happening here is that the elders are exerting their authority and personal influence into the family circle under the influence of not only an assumed fantasy authority, but with their own personal values - many of which are unduly imposed upon them in their ignorance. This unwarranted intervention undermines the authority and values of the parents in bringing up their children.

That is only the beginning of it. The elders are influenced and subject to extreme measures to protect the society above even criminal acts against children as seen by the multitude of lawful cases against them. That this influence will affect their judgement over vulnerable children and adults, the risk to the child’s psyche is clear. Even disfellowshipping for an adult can be akin to a bereavement when one considers the issues of the heart in service to Jehovah and the dedication that goes with it. What is that like for a child?

There is no role for the elders to interfere with the upbringing of the child. The only responsibility of an adult is to inform the parent of any moral or physical danger to a child and which any parent would welcome. Opinion and intervention ends there. This leaves the responsibility where it belongs with the parents.

As you point out, the best advice to give a parent is to not allow their children to commit to any legally (imagined or otherwise) binding process before they are of an age to reason it for themselves. Twenty five is good. The brain is developed then - just. Watchtower just can not get it right can they. Everything they try to improve upon is tainted by greed of money and control. Their insight into human relationships is corrupted from its very inception.
 
When someone deviates from the scriptures it often results in incongruity. The ORG has established a minor being under 18 years of age, which is how the government we live under determines the standard but it isn’t really a scriptural standard and apparently is a fairly recent standard. It was in 1971 that the US National voting age was lowered to 18 years via the 26th amendment but prior to that time, the voting age was 21 years and that seemed to have been the line drawn between being a minor and an adult both in the US and Europe. And, yes, 1971 was when I was becoming an adult and I do recall that event.

So, in the ORG, if a child wants to be baptized, he must have his parent’s approval. That makes me question, how could he/she be an adult if they are not really making their own decisions but still come under the control and authority of their parents? Did Jesus have to ask his mother’s permission to get baptized? And, the ORG glamorizes and encourages youthful baptism by relating accounts like this one. Quote from the Watchtower Study Edition, June 2011, “A Witness in Greece said: ‘I was baptized when I was 12 years old. I have never regretted my decision. Since then, 24 years have passed, 23 of which I have spent in the full-time service. My love for Jehovah always helped me to face the difficulties of youth. At the age of 12, I did not have the Scriptural knowledge that I have now. But I knew that I loved Jehovah and wanted to serve him forever. I am glad that he has helped me to continue in his service.’”

What we can learn from the scriptures is that Numbers 1:3 shows the age that a man could be deemed eligible for military service and to be counted as an adult male for the national census. And, Exodus 30:14 shows the age at which a male was subject to the Temple Tax. And, Deuteronomy 1:39 shows that there is an age of accountability and youthful sin is handled differently than when one sins as an adult. And, the best example we have is the one of Jesus, who was baptized at 30 years old and there is no mention of needing parental approval.

Numbers 1:3: “You and Aaron are to register by their companies all those from 20 years old and up who can serve in the army in Israel.”

Exodus 30:14: “Everyone registered who is 20 years old and up will give Jehovah’s contribution.”

Deuteronomy 1:39: “Moreover, your children who you said would become plunder and your sons who today do not know good or bad, these will enter, and I will give it to them to possess.”
 
Not only being baptised at an early age but also given the recent push to "use" young ones as much as possible ( 21 year old Elders and 18 Year old MS's for ex) ....... Losch Lett and others, look out

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Watchman said:
This should not even be an issue. Baptizing children is wrong. Period. There is no scriptural support for such a thing.
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It’s no different from Catholics christening/ baptizing children when they are infants. Did they ever stop to think that our perfect Lord and Savior was baptized at 30 years of age?
I think what this is about is increasing numbers in the organization because so many are leaving now.
 
Comical! The degradation continues with
18-21 year old Children disciplining you, and your children, of which most youths have no children, in a day, age where most don't have enough sense to change a tire on a car much less use jumper cables. The watchtower leadership is guilty of dumbing down and delivering its followers into ignorance. But all is not lost with the flood of new light they so graciously provide as supper at the propertime. "We the Governing Body have decided" it's now a conscious matter to use your brain and get an edgamakation that you may now learn something that will provide more doe to deposit in our contribution boxes, and don't forget to sign everything you own over to us, that we may put your hard earned assets to work in our hedge funds of which you'll never see. Thank you dear friends.
Sending our sincere love from the brothers at Warlock and Ramapole.
 
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Watchman said:
Esto ni siquiera debería ser un problema. Bautizar niños está mal. Punto. No hay ningún fundamento bíblico para tal práctica.
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Jamás mis padres estuvieron en mis diferentes comités siendo menor de edad. No pararon hasta que me intenté suicidar.
Recuerdo al anciano de otra congregación y padre de mis amigas no dejar que su hija menor se bautizara hasta que no cumpliera la mayoría de edad. Con la mayor hicieron la misma caza de brujas que conmigo.
Hoy en día con las leyes de protección al menor estarían tras las rejas todos.
 
Revvzone said:
Comical! The degradation continues with
18-21 year old Children disciplining you, and your children, of which most youths have no children, in a day, age where most don't have enough sense to change a tire on a car much less use jumper cables. The watchtower leadership is guilty of dumbing down and delivering its followers into ignorance. But all is not lost with the flood of new light they so graciously provide as supper at the propertime. "We the Governing Body have decided" it's now a conscious matter to use your brain and get an edgamakation that you may now learn something that will provide more doe to deposit in our contribution boxes, and don't forget to sign everything you own over to us, that we may put your hard earned assets to work in our hedge funds of which you'll never see. Thank you dear friends.
Sending our sincere love from the brothers at Warlock and Ramapole.
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Seeing that the title of this thread is “it’s Wrong” and Ramapo has been mentioned, makes me wonder exactly how much has been poured into this project since it began. And how much more it’s going to cost to produce what is. after all, turning into a white elephant, if not already. News on the progress is pretty sparse. Maybe I need to check on the new TikTok press site, whatever it’s called. Is that something “wrong” to do too? Or am I wrong? But something is not right in WT land, that’s for sure. Never mind, blind obedience will carry us through. Right?
 
Niobium said:
Seeing that the title of this thread is “it’s Wrong” and Ramapo has been mentioned, makes me wonder exactly how much has been poured into this project since it began. And how much more it’s going to cost to produce what is. after all, turning into a white elephant, if not already. News on the progress is pretty sparse. Maybe I need to check on the new TikTok press site, whatever it’s called. Is that something “wrong” to do too? Or am I wrong? But something is not right in WT land, that’s for sure. Never mind, blind obedience will carry us through. Right?
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Ramapo (or Rambo as my spell correct suggests) reminds me a little of the Titanic. Unsinkable until it does.
 
BARNABY THE DOG. said:
Baptism for minors is certainly wrong, but in the case of watchtower it also holds the potential for usurping the headship of the family order. What is happening here is that the elders are exerting their authority and personal influence into the family circle under the influence of not only an assumed fantasy authority, but with their own personal values - many of which are unduly imposed upon them in their ignorance. This unwarranted intervention undermines the authority and values of the parents in bringing up their children.

That is only the beginning of it. The elders are influenced and subject to extreme measures to protect the society above even criminal acts against children as seen by the multitude of lawful cases against them. That this influence will affect their judgement over vulnerable children and adults, the risk to the child’s psyche is clear. Even disfellowshipping for an adult can be akin to a bereavement when one considers the issues of the heart in service to Jehovah and the dedication that goes with it. What is that like for a child?

There is no role for the elders to interfere with the upbringing of the child. The only responsibility of an adult is to inform the parent of any moral or physical danger to a child and which any parent would welcome. Opinion and intervention ends there. This leaves the responsibility where it belongs with the parents.

As you point out, the best advice to give a parent is to not allow their children to commit to any legally (imagined or otherwise) binding process before they are of an age to reason it for themselves. Twenty five is good. The brain is developed then - just. Watchtower just can not get it right can they. Everything they try to improve upon is tainted by greed of money and control. Their insight into human relationships is corrupted from its very inception.
Click to expand...
I tried to prevent my eldest son getting baptised at 15, not only is 15 far too young for something so serious but he wasn't even ready really, but the elders knew best and ignored me. They actually told me that they don't have the authority to stop him getting baptised if that's what he wants 🥹
 
Watchman said:
This should not even be an issue. Baptizing children is wrong. Period. There is no scriptural support for such a thing.
Click to expand...

What WT won’t do to make it look like their org is growing.
Personally I think Jesus set the example getting baptized at was it 30 yrs old?
Poor manipulated kids get kicked out and given the WT death sentence when the hormones begin raging.
 
Proverbs 14 v 15 said:
I tried to prevent my eldest son getting baptised at 15, not only is 15 far too young for something so serious but he wasn't even ready really, but the elders knew best and ignored me. They actually told me that they don't have the authority to stop him getting baptised if that's what he wants 🥹
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But they have the authority to stop someone going to the police about CSA? One gets to see how twisted their moral reasoning can become.
 
Proverbs 14 v 15 said:
I tried to prevent my eldest son getting baptised at 15, not only is 15 far too young for something so serious but he wasn't even ready really, but the elders knew best and ignored me. They actually told me that they don't have the authority to stop him getting baptised if that's what he wants 🥹
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Maybe it’s a local thing but I was aware of minors wanting to be baptized but prevented by parental authority and the Elders upheld it. This is a quote from the June 2011 Watchtower:

“Should My Child Put Off Baptism?

Occasionally, even when children qualify for baptism, their parents may decide that it should be postponed. What may be their reasons?”
 
SusanB said:
Maybe it’s a local thing but I was aware of minors wanting to be baptized but prevented by parental authority and the Elders upheld it. This is a quote from the June 2011 Watchtower:

“Should My Child Put Off Baptism?

Occasionally, even when children qualify for baptism, their parents may decide that it should be postponed. What may be their reasons?”
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I think it was more of a "didn't like me" thing, cos I didn't like the CSA policy of "the reproach brought on Jehovah's name by reporting it to the police" so I used to say things due to my "confusion" 🙃 consequently, I never was truly accepted into Jah's org, anything I did for Jehovah that they call "privileges" like joining the RBC etc I got in through the back door so to speak, t'was a case of not WHAT you know but WHO you know!!
 
My brother was baptized at 13 and DF'd at the age of 16. He has told me time and again he was sorry about what he had done. He is 49 now and has lived a clean moral life ever since. Married for decades with a family. Our mother has been both hot and cold with him depending on which ever way the Watchtower pendulum has swinged regarding treatment of family members. He has more bible knowledge than me and has faith, but because of his treatment by both the congregation and family he says he is never coming back. I know in the real world he probably should be humbler, but I completely understand why he feels that way. CHILDREN should NOT be baptized. Not any real difference than infant baptism.
 
Jim said:
I know in the real world he probably should be humbler
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Yeah but a lot of us on this forum say they can never go back, me included, but it's not because we're not humble, it's because by and large, it's the wrong place to be at this moment in time. 13 eh? Shocking, there was a 13yr lad in my old congregation, I was gob smacked, especially after the watchtower teaching me over and over how wrong the Catholics are for doing the same 🙄
 
Jim said:
Mi hermano fue bautizado a los 13 años y expulsado de la Iglesia a los 16. Me ha dicho una y otra vez que lamenta lo que hizo. Ahora tiene 49 años y desde entonces ha llevado una vida moral intachable. Lleva décadas casado y tiene una familia. Nuestra madre ha tenido una actitud ambivalente hacia él, dependiendo de la postura de la Watchtower respecto al trato a los miembros de la familia. Él tiene más conocimiento bíblico que yo y tiene fe, pero debido al trato que recibe tanto de la congregación como de la familia, dice que nunca volverá. Sé que en la vida real probablemente debería ser más humilde, pero entiendo perfectamente por qué se siente así. Los NIÑOS NO deben ser bautizados. No hay diferencia real con el bautismo infantil.
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Dile que se pase por aquí. Seguro que podemos comprender perfectamente como se siente. 😊
 
Jim said:
My brother was baptized at 13 and DF'd at the age of 16. He has told me time and again he was sorry about what he had done. He is 49 now and has lived a clean moral life ever since. Married for decades with a family. Our mother has been both hot and cold with him depending on which ever way the Watchtower pendulum has swinged regarding treatment of family members. He has more bible knowledge than me and has faith, but because of his treatment by both the congregation and family he says he is never coming back. I know in the real world he probably should be humbler, but I completely understand why he feels that way. CHILDREN should NOT be baptized. Not any real difference than infant baptism.
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Make sure he gets Bro. kings book. If he agrees to read it, please tell us what he thinks!
 
Jim said:
My brother was baptized at 13 and DF'd at the age of 16. He has told me time and again he was sorry about what he had done. He is 49 now and has lived a clean moral life ever since. Married for decades with a family. Our mother has been both hot and cold with him depending on which ever way the Watchtower pendulum has swinged regarding treatment of family members. He has more bible knowledge than me and has faith, but because of his treatment by both the congregation and family he says he is never coming back. I know in the real world he probably should be humbler, but I completely understand why he feels that way. CHILDREN should NOT be baptized. Not any real difference than infant baptism.
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I seems the fact that your brother has “more bible knowledge” is the very reason he does not come back to watchtower. In my time, the sense of exclusivity to bible knowledge was rife amongst us and it was not until I read this site that I saw the difference between slight of hand masquerading as truth and the actual biblical demonstration of what is truth. It was my ‘eat of my flesh and drink of my blood” moment.

Yet regardless of the fact of the deception of watchtower to ourselves now, insofar as truth is concerned, is their betrayal of love. The sense that “hopes all things”, forgives, nurtures and ‘never fails’ was not there when it was needed the most. And it is lacking still amongst them.

The type of love that hates the wrong, but loves the person and compels them to leave the other ninety nine sheep to bring the one back home is not there. The speed at which people are condemned through ignorance of the understanding of the word is compelling evidence as to why many simply can not go back. It is evidence of the wickedness and worship of men that these lost ones see and they come to understand that the Truth is elsewhere. What they need most is the balance and straightness that we see here. It is the only reconciliation with the truth of the truth that I know of.
 
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