Saved by Grace?

[Bk Kevin]

Lo que comprendo por pasión en este texto hace referencia al deseo vehemente sexual. Dicho de otra manera: no mires a una mujer con el deseo de llevártela a la cama, porque el amor del que habla en la union de una pareja para Jehová es otra cosa. Muchos se casan haciendo caso a ese deseo y cuando ese deseo se apaga el matrimonio muere. Le damos demasiada importancia a la carne.

Spanish to English
What I understand by passion in this text refers to vehement sexual desire. In other words: don't look at a woman with the desire to take her to bed, because the love she speaks of in the union of a couple for Jehovah is something else entirely. Many marry according to that desire, and when that desire is extinguished, the marriage dies. We give too much importance to the flesh.

 

[LuisMerino9412]

How come Jehovah's grace didn't work for those going to the Lake of Fire/Gehenna/ second death.

Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life+ was hurled into the lake of fire.+ Revelation 20:15

But the rest of the men who were not killed by these plagues did not repent of the works of their hands,+ so that they should not worship the demons+ and the idols of gold and silver+ and copper and stone and wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk;+ and they did not repent of their murders+ nor of their spiritistic practices*+ nor of their fornication nor of their thefts. Revelation 9:20-21

I saw also an angel standing in the sun, and he cried out with a loud voice and said to all the birds+ that fly in midheaven: “Come here, be gathered together to the great evening meal of God, that YOU may eat the fleshy+ parts of kings and the fleshy parts of military commanders* and the fleshy parts of strong men+ and the fleshy parts of horses+ and of those seated upon them, and the fleshy parts of all, of freemen as well as of slaves and of small ones and great.”And I saw the wild beast+ and the kings+ of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage the war+ with the one seated on the horse+ and with his army. And the wild beast+ was caught, and along with it the false prophet+ that performed in front of it the signs+ with which he misled those who received the mark+ of the wild beast and those who render worship to its image.+ While still alive, they both were hurled into the fiery lake that burns with sulphur.+ Revelation 19:17-20

Excerpt:
In Christianity, the belief is that God's grace does not "work" for those condemned to (Gehenna) because grace is a gift that must be received through faith, not an automatic force that overcomes a person's will. Theological understanding suggests that condemnation is the result of rejecting God's grace, not that grace was somehow insufficient.
Here is a breakdown of this concept:

Grace requires a response

• A gift to be accepted: The Bible teaches that salvation is a gift of God's grace, not something earned through good works. However, a gift must be accepted to be received. Those who go to Gehenna are understood to have rejected God and His gift of salvation during their lives.
• The role of faith: Ephesians 2:8-9 states, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast". Grace and faith are interconnected. Grace provides the opportunity for salvation, but faith is the human response of trusting in Jesus Christ to receive it.
• Refusing the offer: The grace of God is offered freely to all people, but it is not imposed on those who do not want it. From this perspective, individuals go to Gehenna because they have chosen to reject the grace offered by God throughout their lives, effectively receiving it "in vain".

Gehenna as a consequence of unrepentant sin

• Reaping what is sown: Some theological views suggest that those who are "brutish and thuggish" and who do not give grace will reap what they sow. Their own destructive nature and choices lead them to a consequence (Gehenna) that reflects the life they chose to live.
• Unrighteousness vs. forgiveness: Grace provides a path to forgiveness and a new life in Christ. Those who end up in Gehenna are believed to be those who remained in their sin and unrighteousness and never sought repentance.

Common grace vs. saving grace

• Common grace: This is the general blessing and favor that God extends to all people, regardless of their beliefs. It includes things like sunshine, rain, and other aspects of life that make existence possible. It is this grace that keeps the world from descending into total chaos.
• Saving grace: This refers to the special grace that leads to salvation. It is only available to those who respond with faith and repentance. Those who end up in Gehenna are not deprived of common grace during their earthly lives, but they are understood to have rejected the specific saving grace offered by God through Jesus Christ.

In summary, the Christian perspective is that God's grace is not insufficient for anyone. Instead, it is freely and abundantly offered to all. The ultimate fate of those in Gehenna is attributed to their own free will choice to reject or ignore that grace, not a failure on God's part.

In a few words... Gehenna is only reserved for those that never show repentance and choose a path of sin willfully. They don't want to be saved.

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Lo que comprendo por pasión en este texto hace referencia al deseo vehemente sexual. Dicho de otra manera: no mires a una mujer con el deseo de llevártela a la cama, porque el amor del que habla en la union de una pareja para Jehová es otra cosa. Muchos se casan haciendo caso a ese deseo y cuando ese deseo se apaga el matrimonio muere. Le damos demasiada importancia a la carne.

The tree of love must grow before it produces fruit ripe for picking.

 

[Ana]

The tree of love must grow before it produces fruit ripe for picking.

Como no extrañar tu forma de explicar...

 

[Bk Kevin]

In a few words... Gehenna is only reserved for those that never show repentance and choose a path of sin willfully. They don't want to be saved.

I often wondered what's behind the thinking of those who don't want to be saved .

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

I often wondered what's behind the thinking of those who don't want to be saved .

The only people I have come across who do not want to live, have been suffering from severe depression. Many older people do not want to extend their lives because their body is unable to respond any longer to their will and raison d’etre. We have all met those with whom no one is home and there is no reasoning to be had with them and they appear to live by sensory means alone - food, pleasure, drugs and because there is no empathy, they have no touch with reality. Where that comes from or how they inhabit such a world is beyond me because even the mammalian animals have meaning and reason within them.

We must face the fact that certain people in the lower realms of sensory perception do not value life in the same terms we have knowledge of - how could they if they cannot perceive values? Whether that is by choice or circumstances is debatable, but what they have is still the result of life. Thus we are judging people not by the value of that gift of life, but their lack of appreciation of it. It’s a conundrum. People value gold, but gold is just a metal. People value luxury, but a native hunts for his food and lives in a hut yet is still fulfilled and full of life’s blessings. What we see then is a reflection and judgement by our own standards, our own values and our own circumstances.

Then there is perception. The world is very strange to many people and they just cannot find a way to fit in. They are unfulfilled and anxious every day. There is no reason to endure the distraction and anguish. Life is a brutal experience of never ending unresolved questions and confusion.

Thus we leave the question of motive to Jehovah and just do what we are told to do in faith that not one person who is worthy will be lost. We must not mistake resignation as not wanting to live. Resignation comes to us all in the end.

 

[PJ54]

I often wondered what's behind the thinking of those who don't want to be saved .

Nihilism.

 

[Ana]

The only people I have come across who do not want to live, have been suffering from severe depression. Many older people do not want to extend their lives because their body is unable to respond any longer to their will and raison d’etre. We have all met those with whom no one is home and there is no reasoning to be had with them and they appear to live by sensory means alone - food, pleasure, drugs and because there is no empathy, they have no touch with reality. Where that comes from or how they inhabit such a world is beyond me because even the mammalian animals have meaning and reason within them.

We must face the fact that certain people in the lower realms of sensory perception do not value life in the same terms we have knowledge of - how could they if they cannot perceive values? Whether that is by choice or circumstances is debatable, but what they have is still the result of life. Thus we are judging people not by the value of that gift of life, but their lack of appreciation of it. It’s a conundrum. People value gold, but gold is just a metal. People value luxury, but a native hunts for his food and lives in a hut yet is still fulfilled and full of life’s blessings. What we see then is a reflection and judgement by our own standards, our own values and our own circumstances.

Then there is perception. The world is very strange to many people and they just cannot find a way to fit in. They are unfulfilled and anxious every day. There is no reason to endure the distraction and anguish. Life is a brutal experience of never ending unresolved questions and confusion.

Thus we leave the question of motive to Jehovah and just do what we are told to do in faith that not one person who is worthy will be lost. We must not mistake resignation as not wanting to live. Resignation comes to us all in the end.

I often wondered what's behind the thinking of those who don't want to be saved .

Es similar al pensamiento que hay detrás del que no quiere vivir para siempre. En muchas ocasiones al explicar sobre la esperanza en la que tenemos fe y la idea de vivir en la eternidad, las personas han reaccionado con rechazo a esa idea. Simplemente nunca lo han pensado y entienden que sería en la condición que vivimos ahora. Tu estás loca! Para que quiero vivir para siempre? Pienso que al igual que el pajaro enjaulado la libertad no es una opción y en este caso librarse de la muerte es más bien algo como cuando se imaginan a un vampiro atormentado deseoso de morir.
Lo cierto es que el diablo se las ha ingerido muy bien, su tela de araña es muy extensa y encuentra una trampa para todo tipo de personas, incluidos nosotros. Así que imagino que sin el amor de Jehová sobre uno, abducidos por el sistema de cosas presente y sin el conocimiento que da vida, la muerte es la opción más lógica.
Que comodin divino es tener la oportunidad de conocer a nuestro Dios y amarlo. Le agradezco cada día eso.

 

[Bk Kevin]

Es similar al pensamiento que hay detrás del que no quiere vivir para siempre. En muchas ocasiones al explicar sobre la esperanza en la que tenemos fe y la idea de vivir en la eternidad, las personas han reaccionado con rechazo a esa idea. Simplemente nunca lo han pensado y entienden que sería en la condición que vivimos ahora. Tu estás loca! Para que quiero vivir para siempre? Pienso que al igual que el pajaro enjaulado la libertad no es una opción y en este caso librarse de la muerte es más bien algo como cuando se imaginan a un vampiro atormentado deseoso de morir.
Lo cierto es que el diablo se las ha ingerido muy bien, su tela de araña es muy extensa y encuentra una trampa para todo tipo de personas, incluidos nosotros. Así que imagino que sin el amor de Jehová sobre uno, abducidos por el sistema de cosas presente y sin el conocimiento que da vida, la muerte es la opción más lógica.
Que comodin divino es tener la oportunidad de conocer a nuestro Dios y amarlo. Le agradezco cada día eso.

Spanish to English
Great Point, thank you Ana.

It's similar to the thinking behind those who don't want to live forever. On many occasions, when explaining the hope we have faith in and the idea of living in eternity, people have reacted with rejection to that idea. They've simply never thought about it and understand that it would be in the condition we live in now. You're crazy! Why do I want to live forever? I think that, like a caged bird, freedom is not an option, and in this case, escaping death is more like imagining a tormented vampire eager to die.
The truth is that the devil has ingested them very well; his web is very extensive and finds a trap for all kinds of people, including us. So I imagine that without the love of Jehovah upon one, abducted by the present system of things and without the knowledge that gives life, death is the most logical option.
What a divine wild card it is to have the opportunity to know our God and love Him. I thank Him every day for that.

 

[kenmuldoon55]

Es similar al pensamiento que hay detrás del que no quiere vivir para siempre. En muchas ocasiones al explicar sobre la esperanza en la que tenemos fe y la idea de vivir en la eternidad, las personas han reaccionado con rechazo a esa idea. Simplemente nunca lo han pensado y entienden que sería en la condición que vivimos ahora. Tu estás loca! Para que quiero vivir para siempre? Pienso que al igual que el pajaro enjaulado la libertad no es una opción y en este caso librarse de la muerte es más bien algo como cuando se imaginan a un vampiro atormentado deseoso de morir.
Lo cierto es que el diablo se las ha ingerido muy bien, su tela de araña es muy extensa y encuentra una trampa para todo tipo de personas, incluidos nosotros. Así que imagino que sin el amor de Jehová sobre uno, abducidos por el sistema de cosas presente y sin el conocimiento que da vida, la muerte es la opción más lógica.
Que comodin divino es tener la oportunidad de conocer a nuestro Dios y amarlo. Le agradezco cada día eso.

Es similar al pensamiento que hay detrás del que no quiere vivir para siempre. En muchas ocasiones al explicar sobre la esperanza en la que tenemos fe y la idea de vivir en la eternidad, las personas han reaccionado con rechazo a esa idea. Simplemente nunca lo han pensado y entienden que sería en la condición que vivimos ahora. Tu estás loca! Para que quiero vivir para siempre? Pienso que al igual que el pajaro enjaulado la libertad no es una opción y en este caso librarse de la muerte es más bien algo como cuando se imaginan a un vampiro atormentado deseoso de morir.
Lo cierto es que el diablo se las ha ingerido muy bien, su tela de araña es muy extensa y encuentra una trampa para todo tipo de personas, incluidos nosotros. Así que imagino que sin el amor de Jehová sobre uno, abducidos por el sistema de cosas presente y sin el conocimiento que da vida, la muerte es la opción más lógica.
Que comodin divino es tener la oportunidad de conocer a nuestro Dios y amarlo. Le agradezco cada día eso.

Buenos puntos, Ana. La mayoría no puede conceptualizar ninguna otra vida que la que siempre han conocido. Se reduce a ser una persona del espíritu o de la carne como Pablo escribió a los Corintios:
Pero el hombre natural [no creyente] no acepta las cosas [las enseñanzas y revelaciones] del Espíritu de Dios, porque son una tontería [absurdas e ilógicas] para él; y él es incapaz de entenderlas, porque son espiritualmente discernidas y apreciadas, [y no está calificado para juzgar asuntos espirituales]. Pero el hombre espiritual [el cristiano espiritualmente maduro] juzga todas las cosas [cuestiona, examina y aplica lo que el Espíritu Santo revela], sin embargo, él mismo no es juzgado por nadie [el incrédulo no puede juzgar y entender la naturaleza espiritual del creyente]. ¿Quién ha conocido la mente y los propósitos del Señor, para instruirlo? Pero tenemos la mente de Cristo [para ser guiados por Sus pensamientos y propósitos].
¿Https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/ search=1Cor.2.14,1Cor.2.15,1Cor.2.16&version=AMP

Good points Ana. Most can’t conceptualize any other life than what they’ve always known. It boils down to being a person of the spirit or of the flesh as Paul wrote to the Corinthians:
But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters]. But the spiritual man [the spiritually mature Christian] judges all things [questions, examines and applies what the Holy Spirit reveals], yet is himself judged by no one [the unbeliever cannot judge and understand the believer’s spiritual nature]. For who has known the mind and purposes of the Lord, so as to instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ [to be guided by His thoughts and purposes].

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 2:16 - Amplified Bible

But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to...

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Ana]

Buenos puntos, Ana. La mayoría no puede conceptualizar ninguna otra vida que la que siempre han conocido. Se reduce a ser una persona del espíritu o de la carne como Pablo escribió a los Corintios:
Pero el hombre natural [no creyente] no acepta las cosas [las enseñanzas y revelaciones] del Espíritu de Dios, porque son una tontería [absurdas e ilógicas] para él; y él es incapaz de entenderlas, porque son espiritualmente discernidas y apreciadas, [y no está calificado para juzgar asuntos espirituales]. Pero el hombre espiritual [el cristiano espiritualmente maduro] juzga todas las cosas [cuestiona, examina y aplica lo que el Espíritu Santo revela], sin embargo, él mismo no es juzgado por nadie [el incrédulo no puede juzgar y entender la naturaleza espiritual del creyente]. ¿Quién ha conocido la mente y los propósitos del Señor, para instruirlo? Pero tenemos la mente de Cristo [para ser guiados por Sus pensamientos y propósitos].
¿Https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/ search=1Cor.2.14,1Cor.2.15,1Cor.2.16&version=AMP

Good points Ana. Most can’t conceptualize any other life than what they’ve always known. It boils down to being a person of the spirit or of the flesh as Paul wrote to the Corinthians:
But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to judge spiritual matters]. But the spiritual man [the spiritually mature Christian] judges all things [questions, examines and applies what the Holy Spirit reveals], yet is himself judged by no one [the unbeliever cannot judge and understand the believer’s spiritual nature]. For who has known the mind and purposes of the Lord, so as to instruct Him? But we have the mind of Christ [to be guided by His thoughts and purposes].

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 2:14, 1 Corinthians 2:15, 1 Corinthians 2:16 - Amplified Bible

But the natural [unbelieving] man does not accept the things [the teachings and revelations] of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness [absurd and illogical] to him; and he is incapable of understanding them, because they are spiritually discerned and appreciated, [and he is unqualified to...

www.biblegateway.com

Así es. Incluso para los incrédulos observar estos hechos puede parecer soberbio o altivo, pero sólo se puede ver la realidad bajo la medida del espíritu. Algo que me hace pensar en nuestro origen, en lo que cambio al pecar en Eden. Adán y Eva cambiaron su conciencia al introcudir la muerte tras pecar. Que diferencias más podríamos observar si supiesemos las diversas diferencias que hubo? Como cambiaron las normas morales en el jardín? La Biblia solo menciona que cubrieron si desnudez. Entender esa correlación entre carne y espíritu me fascina. Apenas sabemos!

 

[LuisMerino9412]

They want to do whatever they want with their lives without no one telling them what to do and they accept the consequences of that.

I often wondered what's behind the thinking of those who don't want to be saved .

 

[BARNABY THE DOG.]

Así es. Incluso para los incrédulos observar estos hechos puede parecer soberbio o altivo, pero sólo se puede ver la realidad bajo la medida del espíritu. Algo que me hace pensar en nuestro origen, en lo que cambio al pecar en Eden. Adán y Eva cambiaron su conciencia al introcudir la muerte tras pecar. Que diferencias más podríamos observar si supiesemos las diversas diferencias que hubo? Como cambiaron las normas morales en el jardín? La Biblia solo menciona que cubrieron si desnudez. Entender esa correlación entre carne y espíritu me fascina. Apenas sabemos!

I do not think the moral norms changed due to Adam and Eve being conscious of nakedness and all that such implies in terms of morality. The principles of morality still stand today and have not changed as Jesus made clear by his ministry that it was a positive choice not to sin. Adam and Eve were alone at the institution of sin and thus had not been fully tested as to loyalty to the cause.

There must have been insight into morality though as ‘ownership’ was expressed over the tree of life. The tree is but part of an everlasting moral accomplishment under the law. That in itself would have indicated to the first couple that there were moral obligations to adhere to, yet being made perfect “natural” law / behaviour would also apply. We do not see unnatural sexual behaviour amongst animals within the natural habitat but then sex has a singular motive between then, and yet care and concern is evident for the young in higher functioning mammalians above that of survival.

Even in perfection, adherence to natural law (that posed by Jehovah) will still be a choice and imagination will not be stemmed by natural means but by choice that makes adulteration of the law unthinkable because the understanding of the application of the law will be appreciated to its fullest extent.

When examined, voluntary adherence to moral hygiene is a gift that rewards us every day through our marriage partner and family, and our obligations to others in all things, because it is fulfilment of the law in perfection, by choice. If there were no choice, of what value would it be?

 

[Bk Kevin]

Así es. Incluso para los incrédulos observar estos hechos puede parecer soberbio o altivo, pero sólo se puede ver la realidad bajo la medida del espíritu. Algo que me hace pensar en nuestro origen, en lo que cambio al pecar en Eden. Adán y Eva cambiaron su conciencia al introcudir la muerte tras pecar. Que diferencias más podríamos observar si supiesemos las diversas diferencias que hubo? Como cambiaron las normas morales en el jardín? La Biblia solo menciona que cubrieron si desnudez. Entender esa correlación entre carne y espíritu me fascina. Apenas sabemos!

Spanish to English
That's right. Even for unbelievers, observing these facts may seem arrogant or haughty, but reality can only be seen through the lens of the spirit. Something that makes me think about our origins, about what changed when we sinned in Eden. Adam and Eve's conscience changed when they introduced death after sinning. What other differences could we observe if we knew the various differences there were? How did moral standards change in the garden? The Bible only mentions that they covered their nakedness. Understanding this correlation between flesh and spirit fascinates me. We barely know!

Very astute Ana "true reality can only be seen through the lens of Jehovah after all God is the creator of nature so how could the clay instruct the potter what to do in regards to morals but unfortunately Satan came along and instituted a another reality one of rebellion and lies and deception.

Genesis​

3 Now the serpent+ was the most cautious* of all the wild animals of the field that Jehovah God had made. So it said to the woman: “Did God really say that you must not eat from every tree of the garden?”+ 2 At this the woman said to the serpent: “We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden.+ 3 But God has said about the fruit of the tree that is in the middle of the garden:+ ‘You must not eat from it, no, you must not touch it; otherwise you will die.’” 4 At this the serpent said to the woman: “You certainly will not die.+ 5 For God knows that in the very day you eat from it, your eyes will be opened and you will be like God, knowing good and bad.