schisms

Frank D

Well-known member
The only reason the WTS knew that truth was because God allowed them to know it. Do you see this? The only way the WTS could have possibly known the things they taught to others, were because Jehovah gave it to them to understand.
If all you and Frank see is the bad that have stemmed from the WTS,
Who says we are looking at the bad from them?
It is you that doesn't see the good in other religions.
Your reasoning about the WTS having truth is because God gave it to them, okay let's say that is the case.
Make a mental note of everything that you think the WTS has correct.
Can you honestly say that there are no other religions that also teach such things?
What about all the religions that don't teach that Jesus came in 1914 and are looking out for his second coming?
Does the WTS help the homeless or help feed needy, or have abuse shelters for women and children, etc?
Do they get involved in politics to pass laws whether by voting or being in office?
If Jehovah has allowed the WTS to know truth, why didn't he allow them to know when they were chosen by him?
 
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kirmmy

Well-known member
Another point to consider: which of Jewish "denominations" was God's chosen one? There were Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and so on, which were part of the people where Jehovah placed his name and who had vastly different interpretations of scriptures.
In the first century? It was the Saducees as they were the priestly class. Within their ranks was the high priest. They were responsible for teaching the people and handling the sacred duties at the temple.
So what's actually the point here? If WT is God's org and it went into apostasy and will be judged, how is that different from all other religions who apostasized and will also be judged? Not all of those are trinitarian either... It doesn't make sense, unless the hope is that it will somehow be cleansed and survive.
Prophecy...they fulfill prophecy. The man of Lawlessness comes from them and the scriptures indicate through prophesy that they will be destroyed by Jehovah.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
The same goes for the question of who the slave is. When Jesus returns, he'll judge the slave... so when is the appointment?
That's exactly it Carl. He'll judge the slave when he returns. Who's the slave? Who today fits with that description? Who today call themselves the slave? Like I said in my last comment: Prophecy. Jehovah's not running an intergalactic kegger down here...a free for all. He has a purpose, he has a will and everything is following that. Prophecy is being fulfilled and it hinges on...well, I've said it before and it's time for me to shut up. We all have free will and can believe what we want.
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
It is you that doesn't see the good in other religions.
Like the trinity? Hellfire? The complete obliteration of, and disrespect for, God's name?
Can you honestly say that there are no other religions that also teach such things?
For the most part...yes. JWs are the only ones I know of who teach the basic truths of the Bible all together.
What about all the religions that don't teach that Jesus came in 1914 and are looking out for his second coming?
The apostasy that Jehovah has let go to separate the sincere from the insincere. RK has discussed this ad infinitum. You can look up one of those articles if you want. It's not like the 1st century Jews weren't infiltrated by error and false teaching, is it now?
Does the WTS help the homeless or help feed needy, or have abuse shelters for women and children, etc?
To a point they do but yeah, I'll give you this one.
Do they get involved in politics to pass laws whether by voting or being in office?
No and that shows they follow Christ's command to be no part of the world. Another Bible truth they follow and taught.
If Jehovah has allowed the WTS to know truth, why didn't he allow them to know when they were chosen by him?
He did. He blessed their work and they took the good news of the Kingdom to every corner of the earth. They fought for their rights to publish and preach in courts and won. They built up a publishing empire and were on the cutting edge. They sent out literature and Bibles by the ton to the all the earth. In every measure they were blessed.

Man, I can't believe you've got me defending them when they've fallen so far. Again Frank, if you believe what you believe, why are you here? Are you proselytizing for some purpose? What's your take? What's your answer? How do you reconcile the type/anti type prophecies regarding God's people in the time of the end?
 

KingdomLeast

Well-known member
Like the trinity? Hellfire? The complete obliteration of, and disrespect for, God's name?

For the most part...yes. JWs are the only ones I know of who teach the basic truths of the Bible all together.
Let's not forget the Bible Students who still exist, any basics the JWs teach today they learned from those early students.

There are several groups, such as the sacred name groups, who although prefer to use the name Yahweh, deny the trinity, hellfire, immortal soul, restored earth, etc. Not to mention the Christadelphians and Advent Christians. And just because you've never heard of them, doesn't make their ministry any less of value. Remember, The Lord's people are foolishness to the world.
He did. He blessed their work and they took the good news of the Kingdom to every corner of the earth. They fought for their rights to publish and preach in courts and won. They built up a publishing empire and were on the cutting edge. They sent out literature and Bibles by the ton to the all the earth. In every measure they were blessed.
Plenty of groups have publishing houses and have reached the four corners of the earth. Bible Societies have distributed the scriptures in every conceivable language. There alone is the Good News of the Kingdom.
 

DR75 less 1

Well-known member
It will be fascinating to see how the Two Witnesses pull it off in the near future. Of course Jehovah and Jesus will be the ones to pull it off, but it is nonetheless interesting to consider. Will the Two Witnesses be given the keys to the JW Broadcasting studios LOL?

The 2 Witnesses just need to be there, Jehovah and/or Jesus will give them the words to say via H/S Not sure they will need no broadcasting Studio but.
 

DR75 less 1

Well-known member
What will cause this complete and utter desolation?
Will it affect only WT/JWs or all religions/peoples?

Notice it is the re gathering of Jehovah's people after they have been scattered. Why would Jehovah re-gather other religions/peoples who did not belong to him in the first place. What all of a sudden they qualify for the opportunity for salvation when the kaka hits?, after rejecting the message for decades? Don't think so somehow.
 

Frank D

Well-known member
That was your answer to this question:

If Jehovah has allowed the WTS to know truth, why didn't he allow them to know when they were chosen by him?

What I meant by that is why do they have to make up lies to say they were appointed in 1919...if Jehovah really chose them why not let them know when and how he did so they can state that instead of 1919.

No and that shows they follow Christ's command to be no part of the world. Another Bible truth they follow and taught.
I knew that is what you would say.:) But actually the truth is that the rights JWs and other religions enjoy here in the US is because of those with Christian faith and values vote for laws or help pass laws by being in office to do so. I have posted in the past a video where it states that the reason the UN does not have the power its supporters would like for it to have now is because of the Christian senators that always vote against such. The reason for them doing so is because they believe the UN is the work of the Satan. If all so-called Christians followed the WTS in not getting involved in politics, then there would be no one in office to counter what non-Christians want. The UN not being in power now is no thanks to any JWs. Do you not think if it is not Jehovah's time for the UN to be in power yet, that those in office have helped serve a purpose for God's will?

The apostasy that Jehovah has let go to separate the sincere from the insincere.
I don't know what apostasy you are speaking of that has already come and has made such a separation and what purpose you think is served by such now...maybe you can explain what you are talking about in this regard. But I have this to ask you, no matter what you think has or is taking place now in JW land, will 100% of JWs alive when the 8th king comes to power, will they ALL have to undergo the choice of taking the mark or not?
Will 100% of people alive when the 8th king comes to power that are from ALL other religions, will they ALL have to undergo the choice of taking the mark or not?
Will 100% of people alive when the 8th king comes to power that are from nonreligions, will they ALL have to undergo the choice of taking the mark or not?

If your answer is yes to all 3, then tell me if you think that 100% of JWs will refuse the mark, or do you think there will be those that refuse and those that take?

For people in ALL other religions, tell me if you think that 100% of them will take the mark, or do you think there will be those that take and those that refuse?

For people from nonreligions, tell me if you think that 100% of them will take the mark, or do you think there will be those that take and those that refuse?

Please answer those questions honestly and then based on your answers I will ask you something further. Perhaps you can already see where this is heading. :)
 
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Frank D

Well-known member
Notice it is the re gathering of Jehovah's people after they have been scattered.
Yes, that is correct but where are his people found in the 3 and half years prior to the time they are regathered?
Consider the questions above to kirmmy and then know that of those that did not take the mark that those are the ones that will be regathered.

Of the 3 groups do you think there will be only those from one group that refuse the mark?
Of the 3 groups do you think there will be those from two groups that refuse the mark?
Of the 3 groups do you think there will be those from all three groups that refuse the mark?

Whatever your answer, those are who Jehovah's people are, they are who make up the GC.

[5 It was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and it was given authority to act for 42 months 7 It was permitted to wage war with the holy ones and conquer them,+ and it was given authority over every tribe and people and tongue* and nation. 10 If anyone is meant for captivity, he will go into captivity. If anyone will kill with the sword,* he must be killed with the sword.+ This is where it calls for endurance+ and faith+ on the part of the holy ones.]

[9 After this I saw, and look! a great crowd, which no man was able to number, out of all nations and tribes and peoples and tongues,*+ standing before the throne and before the Lamb, dressed in white robes;+ and there were palm branches in their hands.+ 10 And they keep shouting with a loud voice, saying: “Salvation we owe to our God, who is seated on the throne,+ and to the Lamb.”+
13 In response one of the elders said to me: “These who are dressed in the white robes,+ who are they and where did they come from?” 14 So right away I said to him: “My lord, you are the one who knows.” And he said to me: “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,+ and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.+ 15 That is why they are before the throne of God, and they are rendering him sacred service day and night in his temple; and the One seated on the throne+ will spread his tent over them.+ 16 They will hunger no more nor thirst anymore, neither will the sun beat down on them nor any scorching heat,+ 17 because the Lamb,+ who is in the midst* of the throne, will shepherd them+ and will guide them to springs* of waters of life.+ And God will wipe out every tear from their eyes.”]
 

alan ford

Well-known member
In the first century? It was the Saducees as they were the priestly class. Within their ranks was the high priest. They were responsible for teaching the people and handling the sacred duties at the temple.
True, the high priest was from their ranks, but Sadducees were not really teaching, nor were they even very religious! They were an aristocratic class that had control of the Sanhedrin. Very worldly and political... Sadducees rejected belief in angels and the resurrection, and were pretty secularly minded. They were completely fine with adopting Greek customs, something Pharisees for example rejected outright.
What I found is that among all the major factions and sects within Jewish religion there were some pretty big disagreements, similar to how it is today within Christianity. They had differing beliefs, but one thing they had in common is that all of them saw themselves as serving Jehovah. Ultimately, as I said earlier, what mattered is those who followed Jesus when he appeared...

Prophecy...they fulfill prophecy. The man of Lawlessness comes from them and the scriptures indicate through prophesy that they will be destroyed by Jehovah.
I have held this view until fairly recently when I reconsidered the MOL/KOTN connection and saw patterns of how the word MOL was used, as opposed to a reference to "son of destruction" which is the basis for the claim that he is a Judas-like entity that comes from within the org. Frank has also been posting the scriptures that show the parallels. According to WT the expression "son of" can be used to refer to the judgment or outcome that results from following a certain course or displaying a certain characteristic. So basicaly SOD is used in the Bible to refer to individuals doomed to destruction. In 2 Thess. 2 this term is applied to antichrist. Would that mean that the antichrist comes out of WT? If that's the case, I am having hard time reconciling how is it that he "He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship". To me this indicates that he has influence on much bigger scale than WT. The only way I can see it applying to WT is the same as I see it applying to all religion: that they would knowingly lead the believers to worship the 8th king, which would be the ultimate apostasy - worship of man instead of bowing down to Son of Man. That being said, I am not making any absolute claims, this is just what I deduced from reconsidering my belief.
 

alan ford

Well-known member
 

kirmmy

Well-known member
True, the high priest was from their ranks, but Sadducees were not really teaching, nor were they even very religious! They were an aristocratic class that had control of the Sanhedrin. Very worldly and political... Sadducees rejected belief in angels and the resurrection, and were pretty secularly minded. They were completely fine with adopting Greek customs, something Pharisees for example rejected outright.
What I found is that among all the major factions and sects within Jewish religion there were some pretty big disagreements, similar to how it is today within Christianity. They had differing beliefs, but one thing they had in common is that all of them saw themselves as serving Jehovah. Ultimately, as I said earlier, what mattered is those who followed Jesus when he appeared...


I have held this view until fairly recently when I reconsidered the MOL/KOTN connection and saw patterns of how the word MOL was used, as opposed to a reference to "son of destruction" which is the basis for the claim that he is a Judas-like entity that comes from within the org. Frank has also been posting the scriptures that show the parallels. According to WT the expression "son of" can be used to refer to the judgment or outcome that results from following a certain course or displaying a certain characteristic. So basicaly SOD is used in the Bible to refer to individuals doomed to destruction. In 2 Thess. 2 this term is applied to antichrist. Would that mean that the antichrist comes out of WT? If that's the case, I am having hard time reconciling how is it that he "He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship". To me this indicates that he has influence on much bigger scale than WT. The only way I can see it applying to WT is the same as I see it applying to all religion: that they would knowingly lead the believers to worship the 8th king, which would be the ultimate apostasy - worship of man instead of bowing down to Son of Man. That being said, I am not making any absolute claims, this is just what I deduced from reconsidering my belief.
You originally asked: "Another point to consider: which of Jewish "denominations" was God's chosen one? There were Pharisees, Sadducees, Essenes, Zealots, and so on, which were part of the people where Jehovah placed his name and who had vastly different interpretations of scriptures."

Jehovah chose the family line of Aaron to represent him as priests. The Saducees decended from that line...I assume. If my assumption is correct and the family lines weren't lost somewhere in the Babylonian cluster ----, then the Saducees were the chosen of Jehovah to represent him in the temple. Regarding denominations...there weren't denominations, all Jews were the chosen of Jehovah. One Nation, one Law, one people . There was a priestly class though. Notice each one of those articles you posted says something along the lines of "group of Jews", Jewish sect", etc. They were Jews first and then their screwed up secondary beliefs came to the fore.

Yeah, they were unfaithful and crooked. Hence Christ coming to straighten them out or remove them from their duties. The entire nation lost God's favor though...it had nothing to do with denominations.

Regarding the second part of your answer I'm not sure why anyone is waiting for an AntiChrist"? 1 John 2:18

"Little children, it is the last time. And as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists, whereby we know that this is the last time."

That was written in the 1st century.

He also goes on to explain that the Antichrist is simply someone who denies Christ was the Messiah. 1 John 2:22

"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denieth the Father and the Son."

Plenty of them today, I'd say. The entire Jewish nation today, one could say.

I swear...to this day, I have no idea why people get caught up in this Antichrist stuff. It defined and explained quite clearly in the Bible. The MoL is a different thing. I happen to believe it comes from Jehovah's organization like it did in the first century but you don't have to. Modern Christianity is anything but. They teach foolishness like the trinity, immortal soul and have nothing but contempt for Jah's name.

And regarding Frank, I'm done. He very adroitly avoids my questions and then expects me to answer his. Not playing that game anymore. TBH he makes about as much sense as a chrome bumper on a water buffalo.
 

alan ford

Well-known member
Jehovah chose the family line of Aaron to represent him as priests. The Saducees decended from that line...I assume. If my assumption is correct and the family lines weren't lost somewhere in the Babylonian cluster ----, then the Saducees were the chosen of Jehovah to represent him in the temple. Regarding denominations...there weren't denominations, all Jews were the chosen of Jehovah. One Nation, one Law, one people . There was a priestly class though. Notice each one of those articles you posted says something along the lines of "group of Jews", Jewish sect", etc. They were Jews first and then their screwed up secondary beliefs came to the fore.
Sadducees claimed that they descended from Zadok, hence the name I guess. But as you point out, who knows what could have happened in Babylon... My point regarding "denominations" was that during the course of time (or rather soon after their entering the promised land) Jewish faith was perverted and out of it came various sects with different worldviews and interpretations of the scriptures. They started out right but by the time Jesus came their faith practice was something detestable to Jehovah. I am applying the same pattern to Christianity. There were the apostles chosen by Jesus, there were also other disciples... it started out right, but pretty soon started to veer off course, and here we are today. Exact same thing. So what I'd like to know is when exactly was it that any Christians were rejected? I've tried to rationalize this for years, but I just can't see it anymore. We know that literal Israel was rejected when they rejected Jesus. Christianity still professes faith in him, although they misunderstand his nature and all that.

Look I have the same aversion towards all trinitarians and mainstream Christianity because of their idolatry. But to be fair, we don't know how many people withing those churches might also be PIMOs. And who knows how many other Christian groups are there who reject those practices. What I've come to understand is there are many out there who are genuinely striving to follow Christ.


Regarding the second part of your answer I'm not sure why anyone is waiting for an AntiChrist"? 1 John 2:18

"Little children, it is the last time. And as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists, whereby we know that this is the last time."
I understand. I didn't mean it in the same way as popular interpretations describe antichrist. But I mean the one who is described as MOL, who will demand worship explicitly; the one John mentions before he said there are many. He's not one of many antichrists that have been in existence. He's the ultimate antichrist. Again, this is just what I arrived at thru reconsidering and will continue to reconsider. In the end, I am not 100% sure of anything really, except that we need to conform to the image of Jesus.

And regarding Frank, I'm done. He very adroitly avoids my questions and then expects me to answer his. Not playing that game anymore. TBH he makes about as much sense as a chrome bumper on a water buffalo.
Idk, personally I find that his scriptural reasoning makes a lot of sense. He has a knack for noticing patterns in scriptures which I appreciate and his posts have been helpful to me. He's respectful too. I hope you guys resolve your misunderstanding of each other.
 
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kirmmy

Well-known member
Sadducees claimed that they descended from Zadok, hence the name I guess. But as you point out, who knows what could have happened in Babylon... My point regarding "denominations" was that during the course of time (or rather soon after their entering the promised land) Jewish faith was perverted and out of it came various sects with different worldviews and interpretations of the scriptures. They started out right but by the time Jesus came their faith practice was something detestable to Jehovah. I am applying the same pattern to Christianity. There were the apostles chosen by Jesus, there were also other disciples... it started out right, but pretty soon started to veer off course, and here we are today. Exact same thing. So what I'd like to know is when exactly was it that any Christians were rejected? I've tried to rationalize this for years, but I just can't see it anymore. We know that literal Israel was rejected when they rejected Jesus. Christianity still professes faith in him, although they misunderstand his nature and all that.

Look I have the same aversion towards all trinitarians and mainstream Christianity because of their idolatry. But to be fair, we don't know how many people withing those churches might also be PIMOs. And who knows how many other Christian groups are there who reject those practices. What I've come to understand is there are many out there who are genuinely striving to follow Christ.



I understand. I didn't mean it in the same way as popular interpretations describe antichrist. But I mean the one who is described as MOL, who will demand worship explicitly; the one John mentions before he said there are many. He's not one of many antichrists that have been in existence. He's the ultimate antichrist. Again, this is just what I arrived at thru reconsidering and will continue to reconsider. In the end, I am not 100% sure of anything really, except that we need to conform to the image of Jesus.


Idk, personally I find that his scriptural reasoning makes a lot of sense. He has a knack for noticing patterns in scriptures which I appreciate and his posts have been helpful to me. He's respectful too. I hope you guys resolve your misunderstanding of each other.
You and me can talk, bring up good points and, worse come to worse, agree to disagree.

I have nothing against Frank, I just won't play his game anymore. Conversation is two sided in my world.
 
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