Scriptures to explain Jesus’s return

For 1914 to be true, 607 would have to be the date Jerusalem’s King’s stopped ruling.
This date can be easily discredited.
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Food for thought...
Excerpted from -

If clouds symbolize invisibility, then what about…​

QUESTION: I again appeal to you for help in clarifying a paramount aspect of Christ’s parousia, which, according to our brothers in Bethel, supposedly is invisible. To support their doctrine of an invisible parousia, they say clouds in scripture generally represent invisibility. Although on certain occasions that may be true, when in reference to Jehovah’s day, clouds are more often than not associated with darkness, terror, unrest etc. What is your opinion on this topic? I would also ask you to consider the vision of Daniel in chapter 7 about the Son of man coming on the clouds.






ANSWER: The Watchtower is correct in saying that clouds may symbolize something that is invisible to human eyes. And, of course, clouds may also be used to denote gloom and doom. Surely the vision of the seventh chapter of Daniel depicting the Son of man coming on the clouds of heaven and gaining access to the Ancient of days is an event that takes place in the invisible realm – in heaven itself.

Likewise, Jesus foretold that all the tribes of the earth will see the sign of the Son of man displayed in heaven and they will see him coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And Jesus repeated that expression in Revelation as well, saying: “Look! He is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, and those who pierced him; and all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of him. Yes, Amen.”

True, the untaught masses insist that what the Bible says in regard to every eye seeing him is literal, but such persons have no appreciation for the fact that seeing Jesus is a privilege reserved exclusively for the faithful chosen ones.

But there is another important usage of clouds, in this case literal clouds in the sky, that can help us understand how clouds can be used to symbolize something that is concealed from human vision. Consider the account of Jesus’ ascension to heaven. The account in the first chapter of the book of Acts states: “And after he had said these things, while they were looking on, he was lifted up and a cloud caught him up from their vision. And as they were gazing into the sky while he was on his way, also, look! two men in white garments stood alongside them, and they said: ‘Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into the sky? This Jesus who was received up from you into the sky will come thus in the same manner as you have beheld him going into the sky.’”

Notice, please, that when Jesus was caught up into a cloud he was concealed from their vision, at which point two angels appeared as men among them to explain the manner of his return. But Jesus was visible to them for a time as he was levitated into the sky. No doubt the awestruck apostles and disciples understood the angels to mean that they would also visibly see Jesus descend from heaven in the same manner. It is reasonable, then, to expect that the return of Jesus will occur in the reverse manner; namely, that he will make himself visible to his disciples in some manner, as if emerging from the cloak of a cloud.Read more> https://e-watchman.com/if-clouds-symbolize-invisibility/1
 
“such persons have no appreciation for the fact that seeing Jesus is a privilege reserved exclusively for the faithful chosen ones.” Exactly!
And this was proven after his death
since he only appeared to his followers, not people in general setting the pattern as to who actually gets to see him.
The rest of the world will only “see” him with the eyes of perception.
 

Podcast #59​

This program considers a variety of questions regarding how to reconcile the view of e-Watchman regarding the conclusion being of relatively brief duration and the first century pattern that seems to indicate that the conclusion of the Jewish system was some 40 years duration.

Call in question on the tribulation. Is Jesus the mediator of the great crowd? Also, why did God plague the Israelites for David’s folly of ordering a census?
Will every eye literally see Jesus and how can those who “pierced” Jesus be on hand when Jesus returns? And what about the shocking account in the 19th chapter of Judges?
Link> https://e-watchman.com/podcast-59/ Also read -

How will every eye see Jesus and those who pierced him?> https://e-watchman.com/how-will-every-eye-see-jesus-and-those-who-pierced-him/

 
Hi Sarah
i can see from previous post that you have been given an abundance of scriptural evidence and reasoning from far more experienced people who have been baptised as Jws (unlike myself) to enable you to discuss this critical issue with your spouse, it may be possible that someone has already mentioned this point, forgive me if i am repeating.
however, if i may add a little point of my own that i find to be very telling about the 1914 invisible presence deception.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 speaks about the presence of the Lord and a special event that will occur. an event that Russell expected in 1914 but was disappointed to find did not happen.
The apostle Paul refers to the resurrection of those asleep in Christ and the transformation into spiritual beings of those alive in Christ to be caught up in the clouds with them to meet the Lord in the air.
i wonder how Jws who hold loyalty to the 1914 doctrine invisible presence believe when this event will occur or has already taken place.
 
From your reply I deduce that you approximately view the parousia as interpreted by Russell, so I will give you my critique of his view and get you to correct me where your understanding differs from his.
You deduce correctly!
You probably don't take Jesus by His word when He says that 'all the tribes of the earth will see the Son of man coming,' because the WT holds that this seeing is metaphoric, meaning, they will 'see' by means of their 'eyes of faith;' but ask yourself: why do they beat themselves in grief at 'discerning' His coming on the clouds of heaven?

Comes with the clouds and every eye shall see him: If we look at all the scriptures relating to the Lord’s return, we begin to realize that the Lord is here giving us a broad view about the purpose of his return. Some feel that this scripture proves that we don’t really have to watch for the Lord’s return, because we are all going to see him the instant he returns.

Many feel, that the watching really only applies to watching how we live our lives. But this would go against what Jesus tells us in Revelation 3:3 “Remember therefore how you have received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore you shall not watch, I will come on you as a thief, and you shall not know what hour I will come upon you.” This gives the thought that his return will be much like his first advent. Though Jesus was in their midst doing his Father’s works the Pharisees and Sadducees did not recognize him and 40 years later, after giving them plenty of time to do so, he destroyed their nation. As stated in Luke 19:44 "And shall lay you even with the ground, and your children within you; and they shall not leave in you one stone upon another; because you did not know the time of your visitation". Also: Luke 12:37 “Blessed are those servants, whom the Lord when he comes shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.” This does not say that he will zap them all away as soon as he comes, as so many believe today; but actually, indicates the opposite and that it will again be similar to his first advent where only a few recognized him. 1 Corinthians 10:11 "These things happened to them to serve as an example, and they were written down to instruct us." Many do not consider the scripture that says "Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord." (1 Thessalonians 4:17) This scripture does not say how long they shall remain. But the scriptures are very clear that state “we shall all die!" In other words we remain until we die. Note the following scriptures: Psalm 82:6-7 "I have said, You are gods; and all of you are children of the most High. But you shall all die like men, and fall like one of the princes." (Adam or Jesus) 1 Corinthians 15:36 “Thou foolish one, that which you sow is not quickened except it die:” 2 Corinthians 4:11 “For we who live are always delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus may be manifested in our mortal flesh.” The point then is that we remain until we die.

Let us not forget that what happened to Israel is an example of what will happen to the tare field of Christianity. Just as Israel did not recognize him when he came at his first advent, so also the tares in the parable of the wheat and the tares will not recognize him at his second advent. It is the recognition of his return that is used to divide the wheat from the tares in the same way that it was the recognition of his first advent that divided the wheat from the chaff. Note: Matthew 3:12 "Whose fan is in his hand, and he will thoroughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner (the garner being the Christian Church); but he will burn up the chaff (the Jewish Church-Nation) with unquenchable fire." Referring to the Lord destroying their nation in AD70 and the hatred the world has had toward the Jewish people ever since.

And as to every eye shall see him: The purpose here is to show again what is written in Romans 14:11 "For it is written, As I live, says the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, and every tongue shall confess to God." And again, in Philippians 2:10-11 "That at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father." Note, that for this to happen, it will require the resurrection of the “unjust”, not for the purpose of condemning them again as many teach, but to teach them the ways of the Lord. When they are resurrected, they will then “see” and recognize him and turn from their sinful ways, that they too might have life. But for now, the Lord is only looking for his Church, which will be his “bride”, the second “Eve” as he is the second “Adam”. After he finds his Church/Bride, the marriage will take place, and the unjust (those who did not accept Jesus in this life) will be raised from the dead, and become the children of Christ and the Church his bride. Hence Jesus will then be known as the “Everlasting Father” and the Church will be recognized as the 2nd Eve, just as Jesus is the 2nd Adam. (1 Corinthians 15:45, Isaiah 9: Revelation 21.

And they that pierced him: This part of the verse shows that the resurrection of the unjust will also see him at some point after he returns. Hence this scripture cannot be used to teach that “Every eye will see him the instant he returns” as this would require the resurrection of the dead, both of the just and the unjust for every eye to see him, therefore to say that this scripture proves you don’t have to watch for him is far from the truth, those who say so, are not getting the real meaning of what the Lord is trying to get across here.

Comes with the clouds: Note: Revelation 14:14 “And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.” This is a graphic illustration of the Lord’s return at the time of the harvest, i.e. the end of the age. Note that he is on a white cloud; the top of the clouds are always white, but underneath may be a very different story. So, if you can’t see him, maybe it is because you need to get to a higher place (spiritually speaking). Note, this is the same day spoken of in Zephaniah 1:14-17 "The great day of Jehovah is near, it is near and hastens greatly, (even) the voice of the day of Jehovah; the mighty man cries there bitterly. That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of waste and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a day of clouds and thick darkness, a day of the trumpet and alarm, against the fortified cities, and against the high battlements. And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against Jehovah; and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as dung." Sounds like our day with 2 World Wars and the cold war, and the stress of nations that has been in the world since 1914!

Let's revisit this part of the verse in more detail; And all the tribes of the earth will wail because of Him. In that day men’s hearts will be smitten with anguish and remorse, and their spirits will be sorely vexed. The Greek word koptomai, translated “wail,” signifies a beating or smiting of the breast or chest accompanied by agonizing sound—an outward manifestation of the depth of their inner sorrow at the realization of the Redeemer’s love for them. None will feel this anguish of soul more keenly than “they also which pierced him”; that is, the Jewish nation (“the house of David,” “the inhabitants of Jerusalem”) and, not at this time but later, the Roman soldiers identified with the actual crucifixion. The failure of the Jews to recognize Jesus, a member of their own race, as the promised Messiah will cause them to “mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son,” and to “be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [the loss or death of] his firstborn” (Zech. 12:10). “In that day shall there be a great mourning in Jerusalem, as [similar to] the mourning of Hadadrimmon in the valley of Megiddon,” when Israel lamented the death of good King Josiah (2 Chron. 35:23–25; Zech. 12:11). Just as Joseph, the viceroy of Egypt, comforted and assuaged the fears of his astonished brethren who had previously cast him into a pit and sold him into slavery, assuring them that God’s providence marked his pathway to glory, so Jesus will likewise comfort his people. Humbled and loathsome in their own eyes, this chastened people will, under the leadership of their resurrected prophets and the illustrious patriarchs of ancient days, prove to be a suitable channel of blessing to all nations (Isa. 60:1–3,20; Ezek. 20:43; 36:31–36). Lest other nations point with scorn at Israel’s previous behavior, these words are added: “All kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him.” Swift will come the recognition of all the nations that they, too, shared in the guilt. Although some of these nations have adopted Jesus nominally as their Saviour and with their lips honor his name, their hearts are far from him (Matt. 15:8; Mark 7:6). Yea, “all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Rom. 3:23). God hath concluded (Rom. 11:32,33) “all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all. O the depth of the . . . wisdom and knowledge of God!”

I know this is a lot to take in, but I hope it helps to understand my position.

RR
 
Though I highly value your thorough research and explanatory'(s).... You have offered potential holes w/in your theory. Initially, I thought no human can see God and live? Jesus tho not being God Almighty.... will return as a Mighty God. If Paul saw a flash of light so bright it blinded him, what would the soon to be executed population of earth see? A vision or hologram of Christ on a horse with a sword in hand? Frankly, I think that would be beneath his dignity to have to show himself to the wicked earth. Why wouldn't the testimony of the Chosen Ones representing God's kingdom during the 1,260 days proclaiming the harbinger of what is to come (that being final judgement and death) in conjunction w/bright flashing illuminations in the sky indicative of Christ "coming on the clouds " be enough to make every one lament in anguish? If the Chosen Ones did their job correctly, I am sure when the sign of Christ appeared, everyone would know what it meant, especially if they had been proclaiming it day after day. Also, when Christ returns at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation to gather his Chosen ... why can't he still be present during the entire 3.5 years the two witnesses minister, even though he is invisible? Time in the spirit world is no doubt different for humans. So to Christ, it might be a lot shorter than how you view it.
To some degree the scriptures agree with you when you said "why can't he still be present during the entire 3.5 years the two witnesses minister, even though he is invisible? Time in the spirit world is no doubt different for humans. So to Christ, it might be a lot shorter than how you view it.

Jesus has always been present according to this scripture and to the conclusion of the system of things according to the scripture at Matthew 28: 20 > teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.
And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.
 
Jesus has always been present according to this scripture and to the conclusion of the system of things according to the scripture at Matthew 28: 20 > teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.
And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.
But this is not the Parousia, remember Jesus stated in John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

RR
 
But this is not the Parousia, remember Jesus stated in John 14:3 "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also."

RR
I never said it was his second coming / Parousia , I was just sharing a scripture that shows that Jesus will always be with us until the conclusion as the scripture clearly says, so in essence / Spirit he is present. Now that's my understanding but if you guys want to argue and fight over the meaning of words to no end, here's some advice from the Apostle Paul>

Keep reminding them of these things, instructing* them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms* those listening.

Timothy2:14


Matthew 28: 20 > teaching them to observe all the things I have commanded you.
And look! I am with you all the days until the conclusion of the system of things.
 
... but if you guys want to argue and fight over the meaning of words to no end, here's some advice from the Apostle Paul>

Keep reminding them of these things, instructing* them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms* those listening.
Paul said to avoid striving about words “to no profit.” (2 Tim. 2:14) However, depending on the situation, there are times when disputing about words can be profitable. One way to determine the difference is to think, before getting involved in a heated and animated discussion, “Is this topic worth the striving, or would it be better to leave the subject on the shelf and go on to something else?” For the proper balance, Jude said we are to earnestly “contend for the faith,” that is, for important doctrines (Jude 3).

RR
 
Paul said to avoid striving about words “to no profit.” (2 Tim. 2:14) However, depending on the situation, there are times when disputing about words can be profitable. One way to determine the difference is to think, before getting involved in a heated and animated discussion, “Is this topic worth the striving, or would it be better to leave the subject on the shelf and go on to something else?” For the proper balance, Jude said we are to earnestly “contend for the faith,” that is, for important doctrines (Jude 3).

RR
I don't know what Bible you're reading but the Apostle Paul didn't say "avoid striving about words “to no profit.” - here's what he said to Timothy "14 Keep reminding them of these things, instructing* them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms* those listening. So with that being said this conversation is terminated, In other words you will not get any more replies back for me.
 
I don't know what Bible you're reading but the Apostle Paul didn't say "avoid striving about words “to no profit.” - here's what he said to Timothy "14 Keep reminding them of these things, instructing* them before God not to fight about words, something of no usefulness at all because it harms* those listening. So with that being said this conversation is terminated, In other words you will not get any more replies back for me.
FYI. there are thousands of translations.

RR
 
Though I highly value your thorough research and explanatory'(s).... You have offered potential holes w/in your theory. Initially, I thought no human can see God and live? Jesus tho not being God Almighty.... will return as a Mighty God. If Paul saw a flash of light so bright it blinded him, what would the soon to be executed population of earth see? A vision or hologram of Christ on a horse with a sword in hand? Frankly, I think that would be beneath his dignity to have to show himself to the wicked earth. Why wouldn't the testimony of the Chosen Ones representing God's kingdom during the 1,260 days proclaiming the harbinger of what is to come (that being final judgement and death) in conjunction w/bright flashing illuminations in the sky indicative of Christ "coming on the clouds " be enough to make every one lament in anguish? If the Chosen Ones did their job correctly, I am sure when the sign of Christ appeared, everyone would know what it meant, especially if they had been proclaiming it day after day. Also, when Christ returns at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation to gather his Chosen ... why can't he still be present during the entire 3.5 years the two witnesses minister, even though he is invisible? Time in the spirit world is no doubt different for humans. So to Christ, it might be a lot shorter than how you view it.

Jesus went to great lengths to warn us - and everybody else through us - to beware of false Christ's and a hidden, unnoticed and invisible parousia before His actual return, which is precisely why He needs to show Himself to the world in power and great glory, just as He has also promised.

His second coming will be the exact opposite of His first, because now He will come with striking observableness, like lightning that cannot be missed by anybody, as Jesus contrasts in Lu 17:20-24 with His first coming.

The work of the 'two witnesses' has to happen before Jesus returns and 'every eye sees Him,' for when a man sees a thing, he can no longer say he believes.

We bear witness to what we believe, and the Holy Spirit, says Jesus, will put in our mind what to say in that hour of witnessing before the world and its rulers.

The argument that Jesus could not possibly be seen by all people around the globe at the same time, is put forth by people who do believe that Jehovah once extended daylight during the night in order for an important battle to continue without interruption; has He now run out of miracles, or forgot how to do them?

And the same goes for the argument that no one can see Christ and survive, because no one could survive a super heated furnace - oh wait! that is what Daniel's companions did.

Are we to believe that the most important and spectacular event in history this side of the millennium, will need to be discerned by people who have been conditioned by Hollywood to expect some sort of alien invasion?

How is Christ ever going to distinguish Himself from these imitations except by means of the whole world seeing Him coming on the clouds of heaven in power and great glory, just as He has promised?

The reason that the obvious and plain meaning of Jesus' words here have to be denied is precisely because Russell, instead of humbly acknowledging his transgression of wanting to predict the return of Christ, actually doubled down in his error, by simply declaring His return invisible, and then twisting Scripture to make it fit his preconceived idea, thereby going against Jesus' explicit words: 'I does not belong to you to get knowledge of the times or seasons which the Father has placed in His own jurisdiction.' Ac 1:7

Satan pulled this 'invisible presence' stunt once before with Russell, and millions now living still buy into this brazen lie; so will he bring about the invisible parousia 2.0 in the near future?
 
But this is not the Parousia
This was unnecessary for you to state. It appears you were lackadaisical in your effort to read and comprehend what Kevin was explaining. It's like bringing up chocolate making in a basket weaving contest. Irrelevant and makes no sense. They don't synergize. Maybe you got distracted while shaving your illustrious beard.
 
This was unnecessary for you to state. It appears you were lackadaisical in your effort to read and comprehend what Kevin was explaining. It's like bringing up chocolate making in a basket weaving contest. Irrelevant and makes no sense. They don't synergize. Maybe you got distracted while shaving your illustrious beard.
It's a form of trolling and they keep the conversation going by manipulating words and meanings, their goal is to make you irritated and Confused thus dominating the conversation and dragging it out for as long as they can. The solution is - don't feed the trolls.
As of now I see a couple of them on here and I'm sure you already have noticed them .
 
The scripture in Luke 17:20 reads just the opposite of what you said. "But on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, he answered them and said, "The kingdom of God is NOT coming with striking observableness. Luke17:20.

Yes, I understand what you say and the apparent contradiction involved, but if you analyze the interchange, you will find that Jesus not only addresses His remarks to two different audiences, but also involving two separate, and as He explains, in a lot of ways, opposite, events, namely His first and second coming.

As you correctly noted, His first coming, in 4 BCE, was not to be with striking observableness, but by contrast, His second coming will be 'like lightning, from one part under heaven to another part under heaven,' strikingly observable indeed, like a lightning strike blinding people all around the globe.

Hence, His second coming will be with striking observableness, to the point where 'all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in grief because of seeing Him coming on the clouds of heaven in power and great, fear inspiring, glory.
 
@RR144

I still want to respond to your detailed post on your view of the parousia with a thorough reply, but am presently side tracked; sorry about that.
 
Jesus said the world will behold me no more, but you will behold me, speaking to his chosen ones.

Right, but in context Jesus is talking about sending the 'spirit of truth' to His disciples after His departure, 'which the world cannot behold,' but His disciples will behold Him in it, because it is in them.

The 'seeing,' or 'beholding' Jesus is talking about here is not physical sight, but the anointing with the spirit of truth, because He finishes His monologue with the explanatory remark: "he that loves me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and will plainly show myself to him," meaning spiritually, for this promise to 'behold' Him was spoken to all disciples, not only the 500 who saw a mere materialization of Him after His resurrection. Jno 14:16-21

The WT, as usual, is misapplying this Scripture and thereby clearly contradicting Jesus' word that 'all the tribes of the earth will see Him literally coming on the clouds of heaven' in, what has to be visible, glory; for there is no such thing as imaginary, invisible glory except to the mind of the WT eagles who have spotted Jesus with their keen spiritual sight 108 years ago and counting.
 
I try to stay off here late at night because there is so much good information to read and I spend hours now on here reading. Normally I try to read the whole thread before I post, but it's late so I am just going to add this, which is in large part why I was willing to listen to Robert.

For years I have been puzzling over the claim that one of only 3 prophecies that have not been fulfilled is how the whole world would destroy Babylon the Great. Ask ANY witness and their answer is "Jehovah put's it in their minds." In other words they DO NOT KNOW! They literally think it's going to be a miracle if you really think about what they are saying. They think that this event can happen literally tomorrow. There doesn't have to be any world developments, nothing on the world scene has to change or get worse, why? Because Jehovah makes the world turn on Babylon the Great. But again I ask, HOW? If you look at the scripture in Rev 17:17 it also says regarding the nations, "to carry out their one thought." This is exactly what Jehovah did both when he allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem, and when Assyria destroyed Babylon, they did what Jehovah wanted them to do, but also what they wanted. So I ask again, how is the whole world going to destroy the entire world of false religion by means of the toothless UN? How are they going to destroy the Muslim world, in one hour, how about Buddhism? How about the nearly 1 billion Chinese who practice Taoism? The 80% of Hindu's in India, a population of another 1 Billion people? How will the nations "completely burn with fire" all these religions without major earth shaking, and earth shattering changes?

I knew this could not happen without Global changes in the world. I first began to realize this at least 30 years ago. The thing is, if there has to be a global change of the whole world, like all the prophecies that Revelation prophesied, yet that have supposedly already happened, then explain how the nations of the earth will destroy religion world wide in one hour? Because unless it is angels that do it, the nations of the world do NOT have the authority OR POWER to destroy Babylon the Great, at least NOT YET! This also explains why so many JW's don't know there is a difference between the GT, and Armageddon, because as the world stands right now, the only way false religion could be destroyed is by God's angels, but that is NOT what Rev 17:17 says!

But maybe try to plant a seed by getting him to think what it would actually take for the nations to destroy Babylon the Great, and if the Nations could do that in a world wide coalition of nations, wouldn't the peoples of those religions resists? What they really think is going to happen would be a world wide civil war by dozens of Nations, against numerous religions of actual people across the globe. In other words, numerous causes to fight against by the Nations, and dozens of causes to fight for by the people. Is this really something the world could do tomorrow, or six months from now? What about in a year. What about the leaders of these nations? Are they not part of these religions? Maybe the other prophecies in Rev chapter 17 haven't been fulfilled rather than the abrupt stop of the fulfillment of these prophecies in the middle of the chapter and the middle of the fulfillment of these prophecies! And if the other prophecies in chapter 17 haven't been fulfilled what about the rest of the book?
 
I try to stay off here late at night because there is so much good information to read and I spend hours now on here reading. Normally I try to read the whole thread before I post, but it's late so I am just going to add this, which is in large part why I was willing to listen to Robert.

For years I have been puzzling over the claim that one of only 3 prophecies that have not been fulfilled is how the whole world would destroy Babylon the Great. Ask ANY witness and their answer is "Jehovah put's it in their minds." In other words they DO NOT KNOW! They literally think it's going to be a miracle if you really think about what they are saying. They think that this event can happen literally tomorrow. There doesn't have to be any world developments, nothing on the world scene has to change or get worse, why? Because Jehovah makes the world turn on Babylon the Great. But again I ask, HOW? If you look at the scripture in Rev 17:17 it also says regarding the nations, "to carry out their one thought." This is exactly what Jehovah did both when he allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem, and when Assyria destroyed Babylon, they did what Jehovah wanted them to do, but also what they wanted. So I ask again, how is the whole world going to destroy the entire world of false religion by means of the toothless UN? How are they going to destroy the Muslim world, in one hour, how about Buddhism? How about the nearly 1 billion Chinese who practice Taoism? The 80% of Hindu's in India, a population of another 1 Billion people? How will the nations "completely burn with fire" all these religions without major earth shaking, and earth shattering changes?

I knew this could not happen without Global changes in the world. I first began to realize this at least 30 years ago. The thing is, if there has to be a global change of the whole world, like all the prophecies that Revelation prophesied, yet that have supposedly already happened, then explain how the nations of the earth will destroy religion world wide in one hour? Because unless it is angels that do it, the nations of the world do NOT have the authority OR POWER to destroy Babylon the Great, at least NOT YET! This also explains why so many JW's don't know there is a difference between the GT, and Armageddon, because as the world stands right now, the only way false religion could be destroyed is by God's angels, but that is NOT what Rev 17:17 says!

But maybe try to plant a seed by getting him to think what it would actually take for the nations to destroy Babylon the Great, and if the Nations could do that in a world wide coalition of nations, wouldn't the peoples of those religions resists? What they really think is going to happen would be a world wide civil war by dozens of Nations, against numerous religions of actual people across the globe. In other words, numerous causes to fight against by the Nations, and dozens of causes to fight for by the people. Is this really something the world could do tomorrow, or six months from now? What about in a year. What about the leaders of these nations? Are they not part of these religions? Maybe the other prophecies in Rev chapter 17 haven't been fulfilled rather than the abrupt stop of the fulfillment of these prophecies in the middle of the chapter and the middle of the fulfillment of these prophecies! And if the other prophecies in chapter 17 haven't been fulfilled what about the rest of the book?

Good questions and observations; what does 'world empire of false religion' even mean, apart from everybody who is not a JW or an atheist? How do these competing religions form an empire?

The WT doesn't like Re 13, which foretells that in the near future, after the healing of the sword stroke on the beast, the whole world will worship both it and Satan; hence, if there is to be a 'world empire of false religion,' this would be it; so how are the 'kings of the earth' going to do away with a religious empire that itself was given 'authority over every nation?'

The solution to this conundrum seems to be that when the beast recovers from its sword stroke, all the earth will follow it with admiration, making all other forms of worship redundant and divisive, because its adherents will see the fulfillment of their particular religion in this global, united Devil worship - but to call this the 'end of all false religion,' as the WT does, sounds like a conspiracy to me.

If God's kingdom replaces all these divided world religions with a global, united form of worship - because that is what the WT preaches - then the revived beast is the kingdom of God that JWs are preaching, because to them there is no future sword stroke and revival of the beast, it all being history of the last century.
 
I try to stay off here late at night because there is so much good information to read and I spend hours now on here reading. Normally I try to read the whole thread before I post, but it's late so I am just going to add this, which is in large part why I was willing to listen to Robert.

For years I have been puzzling over the claim that one of only 3 prophecies that have not been fulfilled is how the whole world would destroy Babylon the Great. Ask ANY witness and their answer is "Jehovah put's it in their minds." In other words they DO NOT KNOW! They literally think it's going to be a miracle if you really think about what they are saying. They think that this event can happen literally tomorrow. There doesn't have to be any world developments, nothing on the world scene has to change or get worse, why? Because Jehovah makes the world turn on Babylon the Great. But again I ask, HOW? If you look at the scripture in Rev 17:17 it also says regarding the nations, "to carry out their one thought." This is exactly what Jehovah did both when he allowed Babylon to destroy Jerusalem, and when Assyria destroyed Babylon, they did what Jehovah wanted them to do, but also what they wanted. So I ask again, how is the whole world going to destroy the entire world of false religion by means of the toothless UN? How are they going to destroy the Muslim world, in one hour, how about Buddhism? How about the nearly 1 billion Chinese who practice Taoism? The 80% of Hindu's in India, a population of another 1 Billion people? How will the nations "completely burn with fire" all these religions without major earth shaking, and earth shattering changes?

I knew this could not happen without Global changes in the world. I first began to realize this at least 30 years ago. The thing is, if there has to be a global change of the whole world, like all the prophecies that Revelation prophesied, yet that have supposedly already happened, then explain how the nations of the earth will destroy religion world wide in one hour? Because unless it is angels that do it, the nations of the world do NOT have the authority OR POWER to destroy Babylon the Great, at least NOT YET! This also explains why so many JW's don't know there is a difference between the GT, and Armageddon, because as the world stands right now, the only way false religion could be destroyed is by God's angels, but that is NOT what Rev 17:17 says!

But maybe try to plant a seed by getting him to think what it would actually take for the nations to destroy Babylon the Great, and if the Nations could do that in a world wide coalition of nations, wouldn't the peoples of those religions resists? What they really think is going to happen would be a world wide civil war by dozens of Nations, against numerous religions of actual people across the globe. In other words, numerous causes to fight against by the Nations, and dozens of causes to fight for by the people. Is this really something the world could do tomorrow, or six months from now? What about in a year. What about the leaders of these nations? Are they not part of these religions? Maybe the other prophecies in Rev chapter 17 haven't been fulfilled rather than the abrupt stop of the fulfillment of these prophecies in the middle of the chapter and the middle of the fulfillment of these prophecies! And if the other prophecies in chapter 17 haven't been fulfilled what about the rest of the book?
The Military, is a mechanical apparatus of the beast. Once deployed and engaged unilaterally world wide and is "in position" due to having been in a war like stance (WW3) for a period of time... it will then be easy for God to then put the thought in their hearts. No other logistical miracle needed, the apparatus will already be in place. So you are correct, it's impossible for BTG to go down prior to a worldwide WW3 in play. But will be possible thereafter.
 
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